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D.C. S.W.A.T. Team Called On F4J Protestors
Submitted by axolotl on Sat, 2007-08-18 05:13
On Glenn Sacks: This is probably not good publicity, but at least it shows that we're serious!
-ax
Excerpt:
'Fatherhood activist Bob Norton was present yesterday when two Fathers 4 Justice activists beached security and climbed onto the Lincoln Memorial in Washington DC. He sent me the following eye-witness account of the incident:
"I was at the Lincoln Memorial today and witnessed and filmed two F4J UK folks climb into Abe Lincoln’s lap at the Lincoln Memorial. I was detained for about an hour by park police and a SWAT team arrived quickly thereafter. Although they were respectful to me, they patted me down three times and I told them I did not consent to any search.'
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Comments
Nothing in Wash Post?
Checked the washingtonpost.com web site-- nothing in it about this. Wonder why, hhmmm?
Nothing in L.A. Times, and, unbelievably..
..unbelievably, nothing in the Washington Post either!! No doubt partly due to the sway of feminism over the MSM. Can't find anything in the Observer or Guardian either. However, there is at least one video on YouTube.
One thing that concerns me, is that this incident alone may be enough to get F4J banned/deported from the U.S. Apparently these Brits are not fully aware of the paranoia and fascism over here..they especially dug themselves a hole when they said, "this will be the first of many stunts..". Not too smart, old chap.
-ax
One of the American Dads is out
I just got word that one of the American Dads is out. He's been released. Nothing about any of the other Dads or any other details. I thought you'd like to know.
I think it will work in the USA
I don’t know about digging a hole, the acts of protest themselves have been harmless and thier goals are not terrorist orientated, it’s not about destroying or demoralizing the west, it’s about equal access to children for fathers. I think they would be wise to avoid throwing anything at US public officials or the president because they stand a very real chance of getting shot. As long as they continue the peaceful protests in the very public settings they should be OK. Governments realize that using brutality to curb peaceful protests inspires hatred of the government, more passion in the activists and it creates more awareness to the cause. I think American men will respond well to this, it incorporates stunts and disobedience(look at the popularity of jackass) and the super heroes being emulated are American them selfs.
Keep up the great work F4J!
Just A Suggestion
Since the U.K. F4J dudes like to climb things and then create performance art by embellishing the monuments they assault ...
I humbly suggest that they target Mount Rushmore and place giant condoms over the noses of the four esteemed presidents carved in rock.
After all, Mt. Rushmore is in the middle of nowhere.
Only a park cop or two to distract....
I agree that the intentions are good and it _should_ work,
I agree that in principle it is a good idea and _should_ work. What I am saying is that due to the hair-trigger reactions of the American officials, and seemingly a "zero tolerance" policy for anything that can initally suggest something like terrorist activity, even though it is obvious that it is harmless, could result in their being banned.
I guess one thing I am wondering is, why have other groups over here not done this, i.e. protested using stunts?? Other than lone individuals like John Murtari going on a hunger strike, I've never heard of anything even close to it, at least not as far as someone fighting for a serious cause; and even Murtari did not get much if anything in the way of MSM coverage (was he in the U.S.? I don't remember for sure).
Roy, the only problem with your plan is that it would take them so long to climb Mount Rushmore. By the time they got to where they could position the condoms, there would no doubt be several swat helicopters and a couple fighter jets present, not to mention ground artillery!
-ax
PETA often goes to rather
PETA often goes to rather extreme methods of protest, not sure how effective they are. The more extreme ones usually get local attention for a day or two, and then nothing more is said.
Be careful
First of all, I both respect and agree with the message that the F4J people are spreading. I am just worried about a few things.
*Puts on tin foil hat
Remember back when the Adult Swim crew put the lights around Boston and got hit with terrorist charges? It was paranoia to the extreme yet they kept looking for excuses to charge the people anyway. Now the message the F4J are trying to spread is blatantly against the feminist-backed government. The government will probably look for any reason to squelch it (calling in the SWAT team for terrorist activities, etc). All I'm saying is be careful.
*Takes off tin foil hat, fixes tin-foil-hat-hair.
Please join the FRA or MRA organization of your choice today.
I guess one thing I am wondering is, why have other groups over here not done this, i.e. protested using stunts??
When's the last time people who post here pulled into the parking lot (and drove up to the front door) of a Police Training Academy (like LAPD) in a major U.S. City to protest - then photographed it and posted it on the Internet?
When's the last time you protested on the steps of your State Capitol, City Hall, neighborhood park, etc.?
When's the last time you protested in front of your local university with a women's studies program?
When's the last time you took to the streets in protest? Don't wait for F4J, please go do something now. If more FRA's and MRA's took some individual initiative... By all means do something, then publicize it!!!
As far as stunts, what would you like, hand stands off the tailgate? :> Do you realize the attention the "stunts" below have gotten, not to mention press? So far, if press were mountains, NCFMLA would have Mt. Everest and F4J would have a mole hill. That's not to criticize F4J, nor to put them down. I welcome them. I'm just calling attention to the fact that there are ways to get media attention in the U.S. that F4J may not be aware of. I'm sure we at NCFMLA can learn from observing the activism of F4J. I would welcome and love it if F4J got more press than NCFMLA. I don't feel threatened by them, or in conflict with them. I may even enjoy a little friendly competition for media stories. You know how we yanks are. :-)
I think we can both learn from each others activism, media efforts and other activities.
Please check out how NCFMLA has gotten press, then check out some of NCFMLA's "stunts."
By the way, everything below is only a portion of what NCFMLA has actually done. Everything below does not represent, by a long shot, all the activism and activities I have seen NCFMLA engage in.
We supported John Murtari's peaceful hunger strike, respecting his wishes for peaceful protest.
Free John Murtari
Free John Murtari
Free John Murtari
Free John Murtari
NCFMLA Press Coverage
Protest 1
Protest 2
Protest 3
Protest 4
Protest 5
Protest 6
Protest 7
Protest 8
Protest 9
Protest 10
Protest 11
Protest 12
Protest 13
Protest 14
Protest 15
Protest 16
Protest 17
Protest 18
Protest 19
Protest 20
Protest 21
Protest 22
Protest 23
Protest 24
Protest 25
Protest 26
Protest 27
Protest 28
Protest 29
Protest 30
Protest 31
Protest 32
Protest 33
Protest 34
Protest 35
Protest 36
Protest 37
Protest 38
Protest 39
Protest 40
Protest 41
Protest 42
Protest 43
Protest 44
Protest 45
Protest 46
Protest 47
Protest 48
Protest 49
Protest 50
Oh, geez, I almost forgot to mention the efforts of NCFMLA in the legal arena. That should have been #1, IMO.
NCFMLA History and Activism
There is no better Men's Rights organization in the world today, than NCFMLA, and its parent organization, NCFM, IMO.
Won't you join NCFMLA, or NCFM to work with us to quash anti-male discrimination and misandry?
Won't you join Father 4 Justice (F4J) today to work for justice for Fathers?
Those who can only join, but then only watch and wait, most definitely help in a big, big way.
Man, some people sure go off the deep end..
I didn't say "wait for F4J to do something here". Re-read the post, it merely says I have never heard of anyone doing stunts like F4J here.
I didn't say no-one has done protests here. Re-read the post, it merely says I have never heard of anyone doing stunts like F4J here.
I read and watch MSM every day, and have never heard of NCFMLA until I started posting on this board. However, I do have three bumper stickers on my car: One says "Feminists Lies Make Bad Laws", one against abuse by women, and one for mensbiz cafe. Also I have contributed money to mensacitivism.org. You?
You sound pretty much like a self-righteous blowhard. Try yoga or something to relax, and ..have a nice day:)
-ax
Go NCFM!
MR is anything but a self-righteous blowhard. He is one of the only people who actually goes out there and does something instead of sitting at a computer and putting down other people. You have no right to say something like that to him.
http://petepatriarch.blogspot.com
Seems like we have more in common, than differences
I have never heard of anyone doing stunts like F4J here.
I was just trying to point out that there are people doing "stunts," lots of them. Unlike F4J, I don't know of anyone in NCFMLA who's ever been arrested, doing "stunts." Are you suggesting arrest in the concept of "stunt," or a stage like pardoy, or what? I'm not sure I know what your qualifications for a "stunt" are.
I was not trying to upstage you or be a blowhard and am sorry if I offended you. It's just frustrating when so few do so much and so many others in the men's movement don't even show up, when we know there are tens of thousands or more likely hundreds of thousands of men who've been screwed over by the misandrist courts, women's studies programs, etc. Why are those tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of men so dead in the water, when they should be walking a picket line in front of centers of government? I can understand not going to D.C., but State Capitols are lots closer for most, and local city halls are not very far away. I'm not giving up, but am going to try some new things to reach those men like leaving "contact us" flyers in the court facilitators rooms, unless the rooms supervisor throws them away.
Bumper stickers can certainly be as effective as big truck signs, considering those bumper stickers are probably on the road most every day, and the big truck sign is not.
Thanks for the kind words
Thanks for the kind words. I'm used to getting the flak from gender feminists and male feminists and take it as a compliment when I get that from them. It lets me know I'm having some effect confronting the misandrist agenda.
When on rare occasion, I get that from an MRA, FRA, or someone in the men's movement, I may have done a poor job of communicating and need to take another look. It is not my intention to offend or turn off FRA's, MRA's or other supporters of the men's and Father's movement.
If I'm a little blunt I guess it reflects my frustration with being as ineffective as we've been in getting the misandrist institutions in America changed. If I can find better, more effective ways of doing that, I'm more than happy to take a little criticism. I certainly don't know it all and think others have a lot to contribute to improved ways of doing things.
Acknowledged..sorry I engaged in name-calling
Actually I did figure you were probably speaking from a sense, of incredible frustration.
You did make some valid points.
I guess I'm chickening out, but a little while after the last post I went outside and removed the "Feminist Lies Make Bad Laws" bumper sticker. The problem is that I'm starting a night science class at a local college, next Wednesday, and the college has a women's studies program as I just found out. If it was a day class I might be able to just get by with a car alarm, to disuage vandalism; but since it will be parked out in a big open lot after dark..I don't want anything to happen, I have put a lot of money and effort into maintaining the car's appearance and condition (a 2000 Crown Vic Police Interceptor, it's in essentially perfect condition).
I'm still leaving the one that says "There's No Excuse For Abuse - Even If You're A Woman"
That one probably will only get me in trouble if a group of radical lesbians see it..even now the car is parked back-in to some bushes where I am living.
You know it's a really odd coincidence, but about a half-hour ago I was looking at a NCFMLA web page that quotes a paper (www.ncfmla.org/gelles.html) by Richard Gelles, Ph.D. (a researcher On DV that you've probably heard of). Also, I was looking at another page at the same time, which purports to quote Gelles, which was on one of those female DV sites, something like "The Safety Zone..You're Safe With Us" (http://www.thesafetyzone.org/everyone/gelles.html).
After carefully studying the two pages, which seemed to conflict on at least a few statistics (like it was two different Richard Gelles or something), I concluded that the one on the "safety zone" was almost totally fraudulent. Check it out yourself. I'm not sure what date it was created, but it seems like it could be brought to Gelles' or someone else's attention - especially since it is so brazen as to give his contact info at the bottom of the page!(I'm not going to waste my time e-mailing the "safety zone", that would be like arguing men's rights with a lesbian feminist).
-ax
Thank -ax
Thanks -ax:
I forwarded that info on the two contradictory Gelles articles to Marc.
I understand about being cautious with where you park your car and the messages you have on it. Vandalism is a very real concern.
Here's a nasty note left on the little black truck, which has been vandalized repeatedly (windshield wiper twisted, mirrors twisted, trash thrown in bed, flyers torn up, etc.), when on the street, criticizing domestic violence laws. I thought they were against violence. Hmmm.
Nasty Note1
I've been informed that Gelles wrote that.
I've been informed that Gelles wrote that:
"Yes Gelles wrote that. He is the one of the 3 who has always waffled back and forth, but his position is not entirely inconsistent. In this article he is simply saying the injury rates differ, which most in our movement does
not deny. In 1999 he wrote the article going the other direction. Neither article is really inconsistent with the other, they just emphasize different sides. But yes, feminists have been using this article alot as an excuse to
cover up male victims."
Personally, I think Gelles went off the rails in that article, when he states that men comprise only ten percent of d.v. victims.
I must say I'm baffled..maybe Gelles is being paraphrased..
For one thing, if you read both articles they don't have the same type wording or tone..for example in the one on NCFMLA's site, there is definitely a scholarly tone, which one expects from a Ph.D. On the other hand, here's a sample phrase from the one on the DV site:
"it is misogynistic to paint the entire issue of domestic violence with a broad brush and make it appears as though men are victimized by their partners as much as women..."
Does that sound like something Gelles would say? How does this phenomenon, even if true, become "misogynistic"?
Here's another suspicious one: "A battered man is one who is physically injured by a wife or partner and has not physically struck or psychologically provoked her"
So, what is his definition of a battered woman? How does this fit in with the Conflict Tactics Scale? I thought things were a little more complex than that.
Why isn't there a date on the DV site page? Why isn't it given to us that the material is from a magazine or journal or book; or why isn't it addressed to some person or entity in specific?
But mainly, what is the reason for the other inconsistencies? For example, on NCFMLA, it says the study was done in 1886, but it says 1985 on the DV site? Why on the NCFM site does it say one to two million total for wife and child abuse together, while the DV site says two to four million for wives? To me, the following is the biggest discrepancy of all:
NCFM site: "contrary to the claim that women only hit in self-defense, we found that women were as likely to initiate the violence as were men. In order to correct for a possible bias in reporting, we reexamined our data looking only at the self-reports of women. The women reported similar rates of female-to-male violence compared to male-to-female, and women also reported they were as likely to initiate the violence as were men."
DV site: "In the majority of cases, the women act in response to physical or psychological provocation or threats. Most use violence as a defensive reaction to violence."
Just based on that discrepancy alone..well, I don't mean to doubt your sources and I know you guys have been at this longer than me. But unless Gelles is suffering some kind of multiple personality disorder.. I will have to all but hear from Gelles himself on this. Can he still be contacted at any of the numbers listed? Like Warren Farrell says, it's often wise to go to the source.
-ax
p.s. When I google on ""DOMESTIC VIOLENCE: not an even playing field", all the hits are drawing from the safety zone site. So, where was this originally written?
Maybe it's been plagiarized
You are right, it does seem a lot like feminist editorializing, interjected into some scholarly jargon. I was kind of noticing that too when I first read it.
Shame and guilt
MR, every time I see your tireless campaigning and what you go through, I feel shame. Maybe its because of shame and guilt that you are also sometimes attacked by people who are otherwise on our side.
Like many other members of the Men's rights movement, I'm very reluctant to attach any part of what can be traced back to me. This is why I don't do podcasts or videos, although TMOTS's work is par excellence and I might try my hand at some video editing myself.
Till then, keep on doing what you're doing, and if you're ever in the neighborhood (wine country), the beer/wine is on me.
http://petepatriarch.blogspot.com
I'm sorry if getting at the truth constitutes an "attack"
I was under the impression, that over the last few posts I and MR have been having a freindly discussion, concerning the validity of the web page purported to be written by Gelles. Are you saying that if I don't think the page was written wholly by Gelles, I should remain mum, and contribute to the spread of fanatical misandry in the DV industry?
-ax