Roe vs. Wade and the Rights of the Father

This is a well written article. The topic of abortion and men's and women's right has always intrigued me. There are no easy answers (at least to me). Intelligent people have been debating the issue for years. You cannot get women to agree and I assume you can not get men's right activist to agree either.

For me, it seems, that for every 'right' that you grant, there is a big downfall. You have to take the good with the bad no matter which way you turn.

Currently women have all the rights. Women choose abortion/father deals with death of his unborn child. Women choose life/father has the responsibility for a child he did not want.

So if you grant father's right then you have: father chooses life/woman force to go thru 9 months of pregnancy that she doesn't want. Father chooses abortion (not actually forcing a medical abortion, but a 'legal' abortion that takes way his financial responsibility) and women left with no financial help from the man that created the child.

The problem I have with a legal abortion for fathers is that it does not equate to a medical abortion other than financially. A real abortion is final (death). I can just imagine every attorney would advise his client to opt for the legal abortion no matter what the father's intentions are. That way the father would be off the hook financially, but could still show up at the park for his son's baseball game,

How detached does a father have to be from the child to be considered legally aborted? And doe he loose his 'legal abortion' status if he peeks at the baby in the hospital, shows up at the park, or if paternal grandparents see the child?

The best solution I can come up with is prevention. Pro-abortion men/women should NEVER have sex with pro-life women/men. It is not for sure, as some pro-abortion men/women might change their minds once the situation hits them, but it would certainly reduce the chances.

By the way, Kid Rock has a song titled "Abortion" about a father's emotional pain after an abortion of his unborn child.

if a woman decides to have the baby and give the child
up for adoption, the father may not even be told
of the child, and typically is not given a chance to adopt
his own child. imagine a woman being denied access to her child.

and why should a man have to "adopt" his own child anyway?

maybe the reason has something with women afraid of being
held liable financially if they don't manage to sever the
father's rights, completely.

the courts/legislatures are using dna testing only when it serves their
feminist agenda. all that acting about "best interest of the child"
goes south when the results always say "best interest of the woman".

without equality, there can be no justice.

Women already do, in fact, have access to legal abortion as well as medical abortion, it's called adoption or Safe Haven. When she puts up a baby for adoption, she is not liable for child support——what ever happened to best interest of the child?——nor is she prevented from showing up at her daughter's soccer game.

So right there you have a legal, non-medical right that women are assured but men are denied. Men, in essence, are forced to subsidize a woman's choice. Nothing new there.

You both have made excellent points. It is truly a tragedy when children are not wanted by one parent or the parents cannot agree.

I am with you on father's rights. It is common sense. Also all of my 'biological relatives' are male. I am adopted, as well as my 2 sisters and my brother. My brother and I share the same birth mother and now I have 2 sons.

I always worried that my brother would get a girl pregnant and she would choose abortion or move far away. Leaving me with no contact with my only biological descendants.

The discussion about 'legal abortion' (a parent surrendering legal rights as well as financial obligation) is well taken. As you pointed out women have that option, but men do not. I personally believe that it is best for a child to be given up for adoption if ONE parent does not want the child. I do not condone single parenthood and I do not feel like women should be rewarded for having children.

However I also believe there is a lot of room for abuse of this option if it were to become law, I mean wouldn't every father of a pregnancy chooses this (married/planned or unplanned) because it would take him off the hook for child support no matter how much he planned to be in the child's life? He could simply jump in and out. And then it leads into a discussion of court ordered child support.

I hate the thought of any parent not providing financially for children they create. At what point could the father opt for 'legal abortion'...half-way thru a planned pregnancy, at birth, at two-years old?

Anyway, for me the 'legal abortion' is a muddy issue, but I would like to see more father's rights in other areas.

"i mean wouldn't EVERY FATHER choose this because it would
take him off the hook for CS?"

no more than every woman does. that's exactly why few if
any woman has any CS to pay.

you always project that entitled attitude that a man OWES a woman CS.
no one seems to owe a man equal access to his children.

i notice when they list it in the news they always say how the man
owes his child(ren) CS. nothing about how a woman is not even
required to spend anything at all on a child. my cousin's X
did that. her and her "sig. other" moved away, denied him visitation,
and lived off his CS. the child ran the streets. and when she
was 14 she was turning tricks, just like he caught his wife doing.

yeah, automatically assuming women are better w/ children and more
righteous than men harms children, and curse the people who have
profited from it.

"you always project that entitled attitude that a man OWES a woman CS.
no one seems to owe a man equal access to his children"

Daveinga, by child support, I am referring to the financial responsibility a parent has for their own child. It is owed to the child not to the mother. And I completely agree that men should have equal access to their children.

Are we in agreement so far?

I have read many of your pasts posts, and I think I am familiar with your situation, and the rights you have been denied. If I remember correctly, you believe in equal physical custody, equal time with kids, so no support to the ex-spouse is needed. (And I agree in this situation)

However, there are so many variables in which children are created and families destroyed (planned or unplanned pregnancy, one-night-stands, happy marriage, father leaves for another woman/cheats, mother leaves for another man/cheats, etc) and many times parents live in different cities or states making it impossible to share custody, and sometimes a parent doesn't even want shared physical custody if it is offered. So what then? Wouldn't the non-physical custody parent have to pay a fair amount of support?

As far as 'legal abortion' goes, I have not decided if I am for or against it, I see too many variables that would effect the situation. I would be more for it in cases of a one-night-stand, but more against it in a marriage or a planned pregnancy. And then the question arises "can you have it for one situation and not the other?"

Of course I can see where the argument would go: Women have access to abortion regardless of the situation, so why not men? But my rebuttal to that would be: maybe women SHOULDN"T have access to abortion regardless of the situation.

No one at this site has convinced me that 'legal abortions' should be available to fathers in every type of situation. Two people create a child, two people should be held equally responsible. I am all for fairness, as long as people take personal responsibility.

I have no personal agenda to be swayed one way or another on this issue. If you or some one else thinks they can convince me that 'legal abortion' should be a father's right, then I am all ears.

Daveinga, as I re-read my previous posts. I think I know where my wording was not the best for what I was trying to convey . Please give me a chance to clarify. My original post was this:

"However I also believe there is a lot of room for abuse of this option [father's legal abortion] if it were to become law, I mean wouldn't every father of a pregnancy chooses this (married/planned or unplanned) because it would take him off the hook for child support no matter how much he planned to be in the child's life? He could simply jump in and out. And then it leads into a discussion of court ordered child support."

I did not mean that the father should be expected to pay additional money, if he is already providing his half of the child's care (meals, home/shelter, etc).

I was thinking more along the lines that a father could sign the 'legal abortion' form but never really leave the family. He could continue to cohabitate for many years just like a married couple and then one day just walk out on the family, with no intension's of providing for the child and say "oh by the way... I have no responsibility for child support, Remember that paper I gave you years ago when you told me you were pregnant?"

Or this:

A father could sign the 'legal abortion' paper and contribute to the child in every way except financially. Not living together but acknowledging him as his child, take him to family functions, show up at baseball games etc. But then when a large medical bill comes rolling in for the child and the collection agency wants it paid, he could just wave that 'legal abortion' paper and say "talk to his mother because this paper proves that I don't owe you"

These were the scenarios I was thinking of when I said that legal abortions could be abused.

Allowing men to have 'legal abortions' would in the long run actually do more harm than good for children. Much in the same way allowing women to have abortions does the same type of harm.

Although allowing men this freedom would be wonderful and would really sock it to misandrists, I would rather see abortion dwindle until it eventually disappeared (in all forms).

A good male's role is protector of his children. I, in turn, feel a need to protect all children. Our children deserve better than this! It has gotten to a point where our own selfish desires have trumped out countless children's right to live. I think we should abort abortion!

Evan AKA X-TRNL
Real Men Don't Take Abuse!

Thanks, for the support, Xtrnl. When it comes to abortion rights, I have never seen a fool proof system that is fair for everyone. Currently it is most unfair to men. I have come to the conclusion that this will be debated forever. This only strengthens my belief that people should get to know eachother and talk before they get sexually involved.

Daveinga was right when he mentioned that many females would take the option that will ensure that they never pay child support (abortion or adoption). If they truly know who the father, and don't inform him then it is a sad situation. But I think in many cases they do not know who the father is.

I do want to clarify one other statement that I made above: "I personally believe that it is best for a child to be given up for adoption if ONE parent does not want the child."

I do not mean that only one parent's consent should be needed. I was just expressing my belief that BOTH parents are valuable to raising the child, and if you know as early as pregnancy that the child will be missing one parent, then adoption into a loving two parent family should be considered.

I also agree that father's need to be protectors of their children. Many men fill this roll quite well and I don't know why a woman would get involved with any man if it was obvious that he wouldn't step up to the plate.

It reminds me of when I was 19, pregnant, and unmarried and I had to tell my parents. Now, I come from an EXTREMELY conservative family and this is considered the most shameful of all sins (my father would not let me in his house while I was pregnant and unmarried, he said he was to embarrassed for me).

When my parents asked me what my boyfriend's reaction was to the pregnancy I told them that he was a man and he would do anything to protect his unborn child. I would NEVER even consider dating a guy if I didn't feel he had this sort of character in him!

You're all right, Kris. We seem to be on the same wavelength regarding most issues.

I know that if I was informed I was going to be a father, I would be happy, but I would also be apprehensive. All I know is that for years all I could think about was how much I wanted a family. Sadly, I couldn't even get my foot in the door in relationships. If I were able to get to that point and find out I was going to be a father, I'd be really happy. Since I was a kid I've always imagined what it would be like to be a dad. I still can't wait.

Evan AKA X-TRNL
Real Men Don't Take Abuse!