'No More Mr. Nice Guy'

This book has been on my Amazon Wish List for quite a while. Just need to purchase it sometime!

MAJ

> "If you place everyone else's needs ahead of yours, not only will you not get your needs met, but guaranteed, you will not meet the needs or expectations of others. Net result: No one is happy"

I completely agree.

However I have a slight problem with how the term "nice guy" is thrown around by some men as if a nice guy is synonymous with a man who allows himself to get taken advantage of. To me anyone that lets themselves get taken advantage of is weak, insecure, desperate, wimp, wuss, etc. whether they are "nice" or not has little to do with it.

I can't tell you how many guys try and buy affection from girls and then when things fail they say they were "too nice" for her. The same phenomenon in when a girl looking for a long term relationship is quick to have a sexual relationship without securing any sign of commitment, then when the guy dumps her she says she was "taken advantage of". People have to look at their own behavior and figure out that they are not victims, but instead their own behavior led to the bad outcome. if you don't want some one to use you for money/gifts or sex, then don't use it in the first place to get their attention. My friends go out to clubs wearing see thru clothes, get lots of attention, freebies, etc and then complain they can't find any nice guys - same thing.

Whenever dudes tell me girls don't like nice guys. I call bullshit. Girls don't like saps or weak men, and some women will take advantage of men trying to buy their affection. But as I described above men and women walk right into such exploitive relationships, but it works both ways.

My husband, dad, and brother are the nicest guys I know, they don't get taken advantage of and are in successful happy relationships. Infact, every guy I know who is in a successful relationship is a "nice guy". So the term definitely has two different meanings. But it sounds like this book is going to have good advice about building confidence and assertiveness which should help *nice* people form healthy relationships.

As a therapist I have been seeing couples in trouble for years. It is not hard to see the underlying dynamic. Men are very reluctant to voice their own needs and wants. Women otoh do this without restraint, and expect a quick response. As soon as they say what they want something the men tend to jump. Immediately. A large part of the work I do is helping men to see that they need to voice their own needs and expect something in response. It is hard work for men to do this. It goes against their socialization and against their biology.

What we are fighting here with the "nice guy" responses is deeply ingrained in many men and goes against the grain of the default taboo over men's emotional pain.

It is worth noting that most traditional "male ignorant" therapists (that's likely a very high percentage) will play along with the wife in therapy and make the sessions ALL ABOUT HER. If the men even mention their own emotional pain the therapist may acknowledge it but more likeley will move on quickly to the troubles and pain of the wife. The therapy focuses on making the wife happy and getting the husband to make that happen. it's some pretty crazy stuff for men.

"To me anyone that lets themselves get taken advantage of is weak, insecure, desperate, wimp, wuss, etc. whether they are "nice" or not has little to do with it."

I have a business proposition for you, Kris. We go after elderly people and gain their confidence, then fleece them from their life savings using a phony investment. And the best part? It's their fault for being weak, insecure, desperate, wimpy nice people. I am sure you will be completely down with this based on what you just said, so let's do this!

You do realize that these "weak" people come from all walks of life, don't you? I have seen a 6'3, 240 lbs Marine built of solid muscle break down in tears because a petite little woman broke his heart and destroyed his life savings while he was in Iraq. She even had a boyfriend living with her in his own home. They were married. Let me tell you something, then. It took every ounce of strength and courage for that Marine to just sit there and cry instead of snapping her little neck like a twig. He certainly never hesitated in killing anyone else before, in combat. Yet you're making a blanket statement that all of these men, many of whom are far stronger and more resilient than even you yourself undoubtedly are, are weak. It's not very Christian of you.

You're a woman. You seriously shouldn't go about shaming men for being weak. On their worst day, they are still stronger than you. They require less protection and less privilege than you do just to get through your day - they get far less so it's a matter of survival for them. Yet you're getting on your pedestal here and trying to shame them for it having some sort of a complaint. You're a hypocrite, through and through. It's counter intuitive, I'm sure, but your comment here is the real reason why men should stop pandering to women. It's all about defeating the very mindset that is on display here and all of the shaming tactics that go along with it.

Part of men getting what they want starts with holding unscrupulous women accountable for their actions. Because no matter how gullible or naive a man is, it still doesn't excuse the behavior of the woman who took advantage of it. I'm not stupid, really. I've learned the hard way that you can say whatever it is you want to a woman, but if she doesn't think there are consequences to anything she does, she won't be interested in listening. Give her a few real consequences, however, and just like anyone else, she'll start taking careful notes about your wants and needs. The same thing happens in every other kind of business transaction. So yeah, the first thing that needs to go is the shitting on guys who get used and abused in relationships. Let's focus on the women, instead, and start sanctioning them for abusive behavior. All of a sudden we'll find that guys have a far easier time talking about their own needs.

My comment was a bit harsh, but it was a generalization and GENDER NEUTRAL especially considering my examples of both genders. So I think Dungone's criticism of me coming here on a "pedestal" and "shaming men" and calling me a "hypocrite" is not warranted. In dating both men and women get taken advantage of, but the majority of the time they allowed it to happened because they led or initially entered the relationship with the wrong set of values, and then tried to change mid game.

Yes, there are innocent people that get taken advantage of, usually because they haven't learned proper behavior which helps prevent it, or sometimes they get downright scammed. Like the elderly Dungone mentions, but my comments were only intended for the dating scenario.

I feel bad for people like Dungone's Marine friend, but I have been in a female version of a similar situation - while pregnant. It feels terrible especially when children are involved. I know plenty of women who have been left for younger women after making sacrifices for their families and their husband's careers. There are people in both genders that will betray your trust and commitment. I am sorry if I did not express that people can be true victims and get taken advantage of. My main point was intended to be how the term "nice guy" is often inaccurately used.

If men looking for healthy long term relationships keep failing, yet describe themselves as "nice guys" and put the blame on being "too nice of guy". I suspect they start off relationships trying to buy affection or their lack of confidence, assertiveness and communicating skills has more to do with the failures compared to their "niceness". I would up those skills instead of loosing the "nice" quality.

I would have similar criticism for a girl who goes to clubs, acts like a slut and then complains that there are no nice guys out there or she complains that men only use her for sex.

Kris, I agree with you that you might have a similar criticism of a girl who falls into a similar scenario. But I feel that you are still going after a false equivalency. It is women who initiate the vast majority of breakups so I just don't think that these situations happen in equal numbers. I also don't feel it's as much of a sacrifice to have kids, especially when you're just about guaranteed to get custody. If women typically lost custody, then I would agree. I feel that a majority of women can find successful relationships without being cheated on or thrown out on the curb and they don't have to rely on the level of confidence and assertiveness that you are saying that men need to embrace just to through a run of the mill relationship.

I completely agree with Matt about codependency. That's exactly what it is. Normally, it would take someone such as an alcoholic for women to experience what it's like to be in this type of a relationship. But for men, this type of relationship seems all but routine.

The problem is threefold. On the male side, men are socialized into becoming codependent. The very act of paying for a date instead of splitting a bill, of being required to offer expensive gifts in exchange for something that should be given freely, it's all part of what makes men become codependent. Do you see what I mean about it being routine? In order for men to stand up for themselves, they actually have to stop doing all of that - and stop being expected to do that. It's not about assertiveness and confidence so much as it is about dignity. It's actually fine for men to be shy and fine for men to expect women to meet them half way when it comes to building relationships. All that men really have to do is refuse to jump through various hoops to demonstrate their worth. It's a one way trip to codependency and it's not worth it.

On the female side, the problem are women themselves. This may sound extreme, but I really do think that dating a modern American woman is a lot like dating an alcoholic. A lot of people call it princess syndrome, but I think it's a far more more general problem. So at least in popular culture, people have to start calling out those who put women on a pedestal and teach them that they own a golden uterus that men have to earn.

On the societal side, men need to be given the same kind of protections that women take for granted. It's not "nothing" to lose your financial investment and kids to a woman in a society that uses a transactional model for relationships. If men do not have a way of recouping their losses in such a society, they're basically fucked. No amount of confidence or assertiveness will put men on an equal playing field when all of society keeps shifting as much of the risk and hard work onto men.

@Matt, the author's list is intriguing. Let's be honest here, the point of that list is to make just about any man who looks at it reflect on his life and think that he is somehow defective and needs help. Nearly all men in our society would fall under some or most of that criteria. Only a hardened sociopath or a raging alcoholic could avoid all of that.

I think there is a vital ingredient that needs to be added for any of that criteria to make an actual Nice Guy. It's speaking up. Nice Guys are the ones who actually say that they don't want to be lied to and used anymore, even though they display those 11 traits. And then they get shit on for it. I especially think that #11 is really rich, since it's men who have to take the initiative in dating. It's obvious which guys will end up making their partner their emotional center - the ones who had to give up just about everything else in their lives just to get a girlfriend in the first place. That, IMHO, just isn't their fault. There are unattractive women with horrible personalities who can pull of more diverse social lives and still find a man just because they really don't have to devote themselves to the ladder the way men do.

My basic belief which can be found in many of my back comments is that for society to be healthy and efficient, men and women need to value each other equally. Many social policies have screwed this up, mainly by taking away women's need for men. I am in complete agreement that more fault can be found with women and "pro- feminist" policies (often supported by both men and women.). I wouldn't visit this site, if I did not believe the pendulum needs to swing more towards the favoring of men in order to give us a healthy balanced society.

In reponse to Dungone...

Divorce, I don't comment on it too much, but I have seen plenty of women screwed and left with the full responsibility of raising kids with very little financially support. So I am not taking sides.

Who pays for a date is based on supply and demand which is based on biological needs, I don't really care what individuals decide, however I think MRA s are fighting an un-win-able war on this one as it will take the cooperation of every man on earth. Good luck. I also notice some of the same men who want women to give sex away freely or resent paying for dates also support strippers, prostitution and seeking foreign brides from poor countries which is a direct contradiction. If you don't want men to pay for sex, then you should be shaming men who visit strip clubs and prostitutes and put these women out of business. For every man who resents having to pay for a date which leads to sexual gratification, there are just as many men who are happy they can do so.

Yes, woman can treat men badly, but not for long as the tables turn quickly as a woman ages. Women have a clock for reproduction and for when their looks expire. Men have porn, strippers, and prostitution and men's value never fades. I acknowledge that there is a huge problem if a woman is the type to easily have a child on her own, if a woman is the type to be satisfied as a single mom, she can take advantage of a guy by getting pregnant. I am very much in favor of fixing this power women are capable of. However, a woman would have to have low standards to consider this "power" as most women would have to give up a career and the ability to attract future mates and would want more for themselves and their children.

Women do need to take responsibility for their actions and they need to stop believing they don't need a man. They need to appreciate men and masculinity. If this book helps men realize their value, then good.

Kris, I'm familiar with your past comments. Your view is that as a woman it's your right to take advantage of what men are willing to offer and you're willing to try to rationalize it in any way you can. I'm sorry, but it's not "social policies" that have screwed women's reliance on men. Men don't actually want to take on dependents who need to be clothed and fed like children for the rest of their lives for sake of having sex. Which is why men are progressively losing interest in marriage. The only reason men put up with it is because they've come to the conclusion that women aren't capable of taking care of themselves and they don't believe that they've actually got a choice but to step in and do it.

"Who pays for a date is based on supply and demand which is based on biological needs, I don't really care what individuals decide"

And when you let a man buy you dinner, you are teaching him to regard you the same way that he regards a child and conditioning him to be codependent on you. You're treating him the way an alcoholic would treat him, not the way an equal partner would. That is your choice. Just because you're able to make demands and have them met doesn't mean that you should.

"but I have seen plenty of women screwed and left"

Then maybe you can set up a soup kitchen where women can bring doggy bags from their dates for the women who got screwed. It should more than offset the costs of raising a child for women whose husbands divorced them. If you want supply and demand going in then you better get used to it on your way out.

Regardless, this is just misdirection on your part. Women initiate the vast majority of divorce. Among college educated couples, it's as high as 90%.

If you don't want men to pay for sex, then you should be shaming men who visit strip clubs and prostitutes and put these women out of business.

Seriously? Do you take me for a fool? That would RAISE the price that men have to pay for sex. I have no intention of shaming men who think they can get a better deal for their money at a strip club. The way "supply and demand" works is that when your competitor charges less than you do, it doesn't mean that you should respond by charging even more. If you want to put "these women" out of business, then lower your own price - in fact make it free.

"Your view is that as a woman it's your right to take advantage of what men are willing to offer and you're willing to try to rationalize it in any way you can."

No use going on and on. You obviously have your delusional opinions about me and my relationship with my husband (He's the only man I am around, So I assume you are referring to him, when you say I take advantage of men; or maybe your speaking of women/men in general, I dunno). You accuse me coming here on a "pedestal" and "shaming men" and call me a "hypocrite through and through". Whatever.

I'll just remind you of some of the things I support/ protest while I am at this site sitting on my "pedestal" (I protest or support these issues at other sites and situations as well)

circumcision
portrayal of husbands/fathers in the media
shaming of male sexuality
value of men to society/ appreciation of men
health of men
ADD/ADHD and concern of diagnosis and drugging of boys
treatment of boys and masculinity in schools
protest feminist ideals/ "girl power"
All the political pandering to women
irresponsible behavior of women
need for change in female sexual behavior (more responsibility)
single motherhood
support for single fathers
custody issues for fathers (especially in unmarried situations)
mother's responsibility to baby in utero
college rape accusations/presumption of guilt
sex offender registration
male rape
learning disabilities and other developmental issues that effect boys
Quotas for women in the workplace and other unearned benefits and unfair opportunities for women