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ABC News: 'Chivalry Lives! Arizona Teacher Requires Boys to Have Old-Fashioned Manners in Class'
Submitted by anthony on Sat, 2010-02-27 00:57
Story here. Excerpt:
'When Elise Rierson walks into Latin class, the door is held open for her. When she arrives at her desk, her chair is pulled out for her.
It's not the kind of treatment most 14-year-old freshman expect. But Elise and the rest of her female classmates have gotten used to the chivalrous gestures -- and rather enjoy it.
...
Among Ivanyi's other rules, boys are not allowed to sit at their desks until the girls have been seated first. And if a girl should stand in the middle of class, the boys must stand with her to show respect.
...
"If my daughter's dating boys who are polite in that way and show respect in that way," she said, "then I have no problem with it."
For their part, the girls only need to say "thank you."
But Erin Matson, acting vice president of the National Organization for Women, said she wonders if singling out the boys for good manners is the way to go, even though she called the idea of old-fashioned manners "adorable."
"We see it as teaching kids to treat people differently because they're girls," Matson said, though quickly adding. "I don't want to seem like an angry raging feminist."
"I'm sure some of the boys and teachers in the school wouldn't mind the door being held open for them too," she said, calling for "etiquette for all, just across the board."
...
Cindy Post Senning, co-director of the Emily Post Institute and great-granddaughter of the etiquette guru, said she admired the thought behind Ivanyi's plan, but questioned whether his rules on manners were a bit outdated.
"I wouldn't teach the same manners that Emily wrote about in 1922, but I'd definitely teach the same principles," she said.
The roles between men and women, she said, are constantly evolving. Back in the 1960s, as more women were entering the workforce, it was common for women to remain seated when a man introduced himself. Now, she said, it's considered not only good manners, but a show of equality, for the woman to stand.
For girls to accept that their chairs always be pulled out and that the boys will stand when they do has the potential to "disempower" the girls, Senning said.
...
And outside the classroom? Elise said that she doesn't necessarily expect future boyfriends to adhere to the rule of Ivanyi's classroom, but "it would be nice if they did."'
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Comments
Ah yes, equality....
... suppose if the girls were made to cook and clean for the boys while in school, would this be such a happy-joy-joy story?
And that so-called disapproval from the NOW beast... good God... "well, we don't like it because it makes the girl a bit passive... *smile* but it's just soooo adorable, to see some boy hop up and tend to her every comfort... tee hee..."
I have heard it said that people are their own worst enemies when it comes to any number of things. I have at times thought this about MRAs and I can see in such articles that this is true about some members of the NOW camp as well.
"Oh we just so love it when he holds open the door for us and pulls out the chair and oh, I feel soo special... oooohhh!" BARF.
Sometimes I occasionally come across a woman-dependent man. In order for him to feel good about himself he needs a woman to be doing things for him. I explain to him this is a very bad strategy for life. When a woman or women stop doing this or that, he is stuck without a self-image he can reply on to see him through the next hurdle. I advise him to cultivate independence from women and this way he can actually have a real relationship with a woman that does not have him NEEDING her to be like this or that in order for him to be happy. In that way he can actually have a 1x1=1 relationship instead of a .5x.4 = .2 kind of relationship. Well, I hope most of you know what I am getting at here.
Likewise women who seek true "liberation" need to stop accepting chivalrous gestures of any kind anywhere they see them, and perhaps must explicitly tell a man, as well-meaning as he may be, that these are unwelcome, as men raised with this training need to be told, apparently, that this is no longer S.O.P. (and hasn't been since, oh, I dunno, 1975).
This teacher, as well-intentioned as he is, by reintroducing this kind of garbage to these kids, is setting back all manner of gender-liberation progress now by decades.
Surprised?
Most American males are groomed from an early age to serve the needs and whims of the aristocratic feminine caste. And they are duped into believing that it is the highest honor that they can achieve in this culture. In other words, they like getting sh*t on!
As far as commenting on the
As far as commenting on the article: I believe chivalry is a personal choice and not up to the schools to expect and as you have pointed out, it is posing additional work on the boys, but not on the girls . But I think chivalry taught as a cultural lesson (not an expectation in the classroom) could be useful especially in the business world.
But this quote got to me:
> "Likewise women who seek true "liberation" need to stop accepting chivalrous gestures of any kind anywhere they see them, and perhaps must explicitly tell a man, as well-meaning as he may be, that these are unwelcome, as men raised with this training need to be told, apparently, that this is no longer S.O.P. (and hasn't been since, oh, I dunno, 1975)."
So anytime a guy opens the door for me I am supposed to tell him I can do it myself and then lecture him on why I wont accept his gesture? Wont that kind of make me a bitch? I'm not sure how that will go over with my dad and grandpa (LOL), I guess I will have to inform them that they have been oppressing me all this time (sarcasm).
Matt, you are welcome to your opinions, and you can chose to be chivalrous or not, but please don't start telling other people how to act.
Chivalry is up there with manners, fashion and religious and cultural rituals; they play a role in society but there is no logic behind them. Individuals can chose how much they let it dictate their lifestyle. It has nothing to do with being liberated or not. Generally people that give into this kind of stuff (fashion, manners, chivalry) will go further in social and business situations vs people that choose not to, but again, it is a personal choice.
Your comments struck me as similar to the feminist that tell me I am oppressed because I happen to prefer cooking, cleaning and caring for my own kids instead of sticking them in daycare. They conclude that I must have low self esteem because I chose to take care of my home, kids and family.
I hardly think you can judge a woman's level of liberation based on wether or not she accepts or likes chivalrous acts, just as feminist can't judge a woman's level of liberation based on the fact that a woman chooses to stay home and take care of her own kids.
People like what they like, and to each their own. If they are not dependent on anyone else (that is the definition of liberated) than everyone else should mind their own business.
Sorry to come down on you Matt, but I totally disagreed with that one quote.
Highly Sexist Man Hating JC Penney Video
It's hard to watch this video. Disgusting, double standardized, and just plain ridiculous. I suggest you send this to every one you know:
Pass It On
"Sorry to come down on you Matt..."
"Sorry to come down on you Matt, but I totally disagreed with that one quote."
Yep, pretty damned bad... but it has value for men and MRAs
If anything it can serve as a lesson to men to realize how much they may have decided they are dependent on a wife/gf's opinion of them. No man can be put in "the doghouse" unless HE consents to be put there. In effect he puts himself there. Note that when the man in this commercial falls into "the doghouse" he is not being pushed there by his S.O. He is just landing there. How? By a law of nature, such as gravity? No, not really. The falling into the doghouse underworld is merely an analogy. He has decided his wife's opinion of him will rule his life. The man or men in this commercial have decided this and so submit to the authority of this all-female doghouse review board. The purpose of the vignette is of course shown at the end when it is apparent that a man must buy his way out of "the doghouse" with a wee giftie from JC Penney. But that is an incidental point, really, as far as I am concerned.
The take home lesson of this video is this: Don't allow her opinion of you, even if you have zero taste in gifts, to determine whether or not you are "in trouble". Ask yourself if you like how she is behaving relative to you; is HER behavior out of alignment with circumstances? What are YOUR standards for the relationship? If you can't identify them, then you got problems, since I guarantee it, she has standards. One cannot have a relationship with a mate, coworkers, family members, even the postman, without having standards for oneself. People who cannot define or ID standards for themselves vis-a-vis how they treat others or themselves are forever at the whim of others' judgments. And when one has these standards set, one can then recognize that others have them too. In effect the creation of standards like these is part of building personal boundaries that may not be in place beforehand, and as a natural result, one then learns to accept that others have them and can also respect the boundaries of others. This happens through the natural effects of projection. It does not need to be taught. People who have real personal standards and boundaries naturally respect those of others.
So I will reiterate what I have said before: Half of MRA work, if not more, is personal. A man must clean up his own personal house, decide for himself what he wants out of life, society, and relationships, and from there decide what he will expect and/or accept from the world around him. Such talk is tantamount to revolutionary, and terrifies many people it seems of both sexes. Yet it is the same kind of talk that feminists have been using for years. So for many men, it is time to adopt it for themselves. Do you recognize yourself in the vignette so thoughtfully produced by JC Penney for our education? Then if so, it's time to work on yourself.
He Should Be Fired
He's teaching boys that they are women's servants, plain and simple. He's teaching them attitudes that will make their lives less than they could be, and which may get them killed for women they don't even know.
Damn him to hell.
----------------------
Rise, Rebel, Resist.
NOW finally gets something right.
"I'm sure some of the boys and teachers in the school wouldn't mind the door being held open for them too," she said, calling for "etiquette for all, just across the board."
It's about time the National Organization of Women get something right. It was bound to happen I guess, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
manonthestreet This is just
manonthestreet
This is just nonsense and is only intended to humiliate the boys. It was never the case that boys where made to stand for girls. When I was at school the whole class stood for the teacher but never for other children. The whole idea is preposterous. I have not said this for a while but I still think women are filth.
manonthestreet Just a
manonthestreet
Just a further point to the suggestion above that the girls should be taught to cook and clean. Well again when I was at school that was indeed what the girls where taught. The girls had Domestic Science classes which where in fact cookery classes. While they where at these classes the boys had woodwork classes.
When hubby does housework...
In our recent past, before the advent of our most modern technology, men did the hard and dirty fieldwork, whilst women did the household chores. Gender feminists, morons that they truly are, seem to want to confuse the lack of technology in earlier time with a male (Patriarchal) conspiracy to oppress women, an imagined conspiracy that supposedly lasts to the present day.
In addition to doing their full time jobs and work around the house and yard, men are also supposed to do the traditional housework of women. For those men still making a living off the land, farming, this is the grossest of insults. It's also a pretty gross insult for those men working hard full time jobs, whose wives don't work outside the home.
When Hubby Does Housework Guess Who Milks The Cows
Thanks Matt, For the sake of
Thanks Matt,
For the sake of equality, I should say that if a man chooses to stay home and raise his kids or make career sacrfises to spend more time with family, he deserves the same respect.
I went to a private school.
I went to a private school. Only about 25 kids in my graduating class, it was K thru 12. It was very gender biased.
The girls had to go to "finishing classes" that was to "polish you up" on what they felt good girls should know. We had to learn etiquette, table setting, personal grooming, proper attire, how to resist sex on dates (I'm probably the school's worst failure-as I lost my virginity on a first date and then had 2 kids by the time I was 21) and we even had to learn how to properly iron men's shirts and slacks for our future husbands as well as basic sewing such as replacing a button and hemming. It was taught by church ladies.
While the girls were doing this the boys had sex education (they figured girls didn't need to know anything as their husbands would teach them). I have no idea what the church elders could have taught the boys about sex (LOL)
It seemed silly at the time and my friends laugh when I tell them about it, but every once in awhile the stuff I learned comes in handy.
The thing with allowing schools to educate your children is they may teach things you do not agree with.
But the bottom line is anytime a school teaches something that you don't agree with, remember that parents are ALWAYS in control, and should exercise their right to excuse the child from the class. However in this situation (expected chivalry), it seems that would be impossible.