UK: Woman who cried rape after sex in public toilet walks free from court

437 comments on the original story and about half mention the same tried and true lie that - "this will prevent real rape victims from coming forward for fear of scrutiny"

Um, BULLSHIT! Just because it gets repeated millions of times does not make that lie the truth. There are OTHER REASONS rape victims do not come forward and it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH FEAR OF NOT BEING BELIEVED. Everyone is so mis-informed on this issue.

Sorry to be one of the few people on Earth who gets that this case and the hundreds of thousands of others just like it happened precisely because rape claimants face NO SCRUTINY from justice systems the world over. Please wake up and smell the coffee people - she came within a hair of getting away with crying rape because the justice system did not scrutinize her until her friends came forward and told the cops where to look for evidence that she was lying (CCTV footage from the other club they were at that night that she failed to mention to the police where she made out with him in public). Had her friends not had a shred of human decency, he'd be in a prison cell because the cops did not question her on their own. THEY BELIEVED HER!

If rape victims are still not coming forward - and news flash people, ALL crimes are grossly under reported not just rape - it has nothing to do with fear of not being believed by the justice system. These cases should PROVE to real rape victims that they will be believed on word alone and they should be coming forward in droves as a result. It sure does prove to the liars that there is free money to be had.

Why do even MRAs need to mention the old "what about the real victims of rape, this will make it harder for them" tripe every single time another innocent MANS life is ruined? It's 100% bullshit. There are many reasons rape victims do not come forward TO THE POLICE, and the absolute least of them is fear of not being believed. Read the comments on this story if you think otherwise. Many women in the comments section of the original story claim to be real rape victims that did not come forward. They ALL list a multitude of reasons for not calling the cops and fear of not being believed is last on every one of their lists. One even notes how much better things have gotten for real victims compared to 30 years ago, and since rape claims have no statute of limitations what's keeping her from calling the cops now? That's right - OTHER REASONS she does not wish to discuss and such is her right.

But seriously people, why are we fighting for justice for people WHO DO NOT WANT IT, instead of fighting for the rights of the men who are screaming for justice in the face of adversity and travesty when they are falsely accused?

The ONLY victim in this case is the you MAN who's life was destroyed, not imaginary other rape victims. HE is the victim and HIS right to justice was denied and his feelings and the feelings of his family were ignored.

Why the hell do we need more motivation then that to push to enact change? Why do mens claims for justice need to be buttressed by imaginary female victims to be valid? Why is being male and not having justice that you went to extreme lengths to seek out (unlike rape claims, men seeking justice for a false accusation have to fight tooth and nail every step of the way to keep the charges from being dropped) served to you not enough all on its own? Trust me, real victims of rape already receive more 'justice' then all the victims of every other crime on the books combined. Would you get ~$11,000 tax free from the government no strings attached for being the victim of any crime other then rape (and that's the tip of the iceberg of what real rape victims receive)? Hell, in Canada, you don't even need to get a conviction to keep the money!

Why is it that sexual assault units in Canada and the United States are called "Special Victims Unit"? Because rape victims already have whole units in every police force internationally in North America (maybe not Mexico I do not know) who exist for the sole purpose of giving them special treatment. They don't need any more incentive to come forward! If rape victims are still not coming forward, then there are other reasons that no amount of incentives will change. for those victims, an approach outside the justice system is the only approach they will accept. There is no way to lure them into filing charges, so give it the fuck up, they are not listening, they do not care, and they are not waiting for you to finally rescue them so they can receive the justice they deserve. They do not want the justice system involved and that is their right, so leave them alone.

The pandering we are doing now to the hidden rape victims who are to scared to come forward is what is CREATING THIS MESS of men being falsely accused by liars looking for a payday or to avoid accountability for their actions. WE ARE CREATING THIS PROBLEM by trying to solve another one the wrong way.

Want to serve the hidden victims of rape? Really actually help them? give them a solution outside the justice system such as counseling for themselves AND the person who raped them. You know why they did not call the cops? Cause they probably care about the person who hurt them and would feel much better about EVERYTHING if THAT PERSON got help for their problem. Anyone have an alcoholic in the family? You know what I am talking about cause despite all the shit the alcoholism has put you through - and lord knows you've suffered - you want that person to get better and that is the only thing that will make you feel better about the pain you have endured. Well, guess what ladies and gentlemen, allot of rape victims feel exactly the same way. There are also hundreds of other reasons they might not want to come forward, and we need solutions that work for them. Not trying to shoehorn them into the one size fits all solution the justice system offers. That will NEVER work. They may not have spoken up about their victimization, but their silence speaks volumes about their opinion of the solutions that are currently on the table for them - they say 'thanks, but no thanks'. So stop trying to get them into the fold and start looking at other ways to help them.

We are MRAs here, we know feminists are dead wrong, so why do we believe them when they say there is only one solution women want for rape? Why do we believe them when they say all rape is equal and equally damaging to victim? Has every willing sexual encounter you have ever had been exactly equal to every other one? No? well, guess what, not every rape is equal to every other one either and offering only one solution will fail 100% of the time.

You know what we as MRAs would be wise to do that feminists who currently speak for the victims of rape do not? We should be the ones who listen to the silent majority of victims who do not buy the feminists solution as the one true path. We should reach out to to those silent rape victims, and finally discover what they are seeking. We would silence feminists for eternity if we actually stopped listening to them on this issue and actually found out there are other things that the victims who are not coming forward want besides a mans head on a pike.

In doing so we would also help most of the male victims of sexual assault who the current approach does not serve at all, and if that's not a goal that MRAs must have, it's no wonder no one takes us seriously. Because in order to be the alternative, we MUST offer alternatives.

We already bend over backwards and contort into pretzels for victims of rape, they are WELL served by the system. The ones who NEED justice are the victims of the false accusation.

Paragon:

That was the most profound and accurate post on the reality of false rape accusations that I have read to date and virtually a manifesto for MRAs on the subject.

Trust me, for every person that makes the statement "false accusations hurt real rape victims", 10 more men somewhere get locked in prison cells on false accusations, and 10 million more dollars go into funding feminist solutions to solve the "rape crisis".

That is the reality. Hell, I would not be the least bit surprised if that how they allocate VAWA money in the US budget. Some clerk Googles how many times in print the above phrase has been uttered and multiplies that number by 10 million and from there it gets rubber stamped into reality. That is how insanely out of control this whole war on rape has gotten.

Where do you go to report someone beat you up? The police station, the dirty stinking lobby where they have all the drunks that could not fit in the drunk tank handcuffed to benches? Well rape victims don't go there to file reports, they get luxury accommodations that would make Meriah Carey feel pampered to file there reports and spend a few days to relax and get over the trauma. Great if you really were brutally attacked. To bad brutal attacks on women are among the rarest crimes of all. But it sure makes women who had another date with a 'loser' feel empowered to go after the good looking hunk the next time she's on the prowl.

the problem is, the people who make these statements about how false accusations are hurting real rape victims fall into two categories :

Stakeholders in the system who at the end of the day are looking to grow the current system (cops, lawyers, judges, mental health professionals etc who all make a living off the ever expanding current system)

and

People who have absolutely no idea how well rape victims get treated by the current system.

Want to keep the real victims coming forward for their 'superstar rape victim makeover taxpayer edition' experience while still?

Instead of saying "this false accusation will hurt real victims"

say

"The cops believed her on her word and arrested and charged Mr X, the guy who will rape someone someday cause he's a man so lets say his name and rapist six more times just for good measure, follow me boys and girls: Mr X, rapist!, Mr X, rapist! Mr X, rapist!, Mr X, rapist! Mr X, rapist! Mr X, rapist! Great I knew you could do it. Now that we've gotten that out of the way, thankfully, the justice system eventually prevailed in it's infinite wisdom and it turns out this time Mr X actually didn't rape anyone. I know, I know, I feel your pain! I was looking forward to burning him at the stake to, but it turns out she who shall remain nameless actually told a little white lie, and she actually never had sex forced upon her by anyone on the day in question."

You know, or just say:

"Miss XXX, of 123 Y street, in Anytown is a despicable criminal and made her absolute best effort to have an INNOCENT man's life ruined. He shall remain nameless so as not to assist Miss XXX in her efforts to harm him. She faces multiple felony counts and up to life in prison if convicted on the primary count."

But feminists would argue that second option sounds to much like the old "burning times" where women were convicted and executed without trial as witches.... never mind that 1/3 of the people executed during the Salem witch trials were MALE, and that most people EXECUTED in general for other petty reasons that did not involve spell casting at that period were also.... you guessed it, male. Thank God there has NEVER been a time at any point in History anywhere in the World where women were systematically targeted for persecution or execution more then men in the same period. Sure we burned women for being witches, we burned men for saying Dinosaurs live before humans to. ALL repressive cultures repress MEN more then women, yes even Islam, cause the "reward" men get for being able to go to school in those counties feminists scream about all the time, is going to work in dangerous jobs where there is no such thing as labor law and they will probably die 30 years younger then their uneducated wife who stayed home with the kids. Maybe that's why male babies are cherished cause they need more males born just to keep the population numbers between the genders anywhere close to equal. Sure is my idea of male paradise. Plus why would they need to recruit men as suicide bombers with the promise of sex if rape is so prevalent and encouraged? Why would they need to die to get young pretty girls if they could just rape them? Oh, wait, rape is punishable by death there, just like shaving your beard. Yeah, male paradise those Islamic extremist nations. Better help those girls get away from it.

You know, just another example of the general public getting 10% of the information and screaming for justice for women.

I know my approach has virtually no support from either the left or the right politically and the chances of any party in power actually adopting it is virtually nil, but I do not see the MRA cause as either left or right wing and we should not pander to one sides ideology.

All I can say is "WOW" - great comments Paragon! Unfortunately you are correct when you state, "I know my approach has virtually no support from either the left or the right politically and the chances of any party in power actually adopting it is virtually nil, but I do not see the MRA cause as either left or right wing and we should not pander to one sides ideology."

IMHO, the whole left-right paradigm is a misnomer. It's simply a strategy of divide and conquer. Since when is life so black and white? Both parties (Democrats/Republicans or Liberals/Conservatives) are equally as corrupt. Like George W. Bush said, "You are either with us or (with the terrorists) against us." Yes, Dubya we all know that the world is only black & white or left & right and that there is no middle ground. Whatever.

Paragon, I have also agreed with your recent posts (this thread and others).

But this particularly from your first post above:

> "They don't need any more incentive to come forward! If rape victims are still not coming forward, then there are other reasons that no amount of incentives will change. for those victims, an approach outside the justice system is the only approach they will accept. There is no way to lure them into filing charges, so give it the fuck up, they are not listening, they do not care, and they are not waiting for you to finally rescue them so they can receive the justice they deserve. They do not want the justice system involved and that is their right, so leave them alone."

Most women want to keep it a private matter and will get over it much quicker that way. However if medical attention is needed, a woman is practically forced to file a report. A soon as file is in the system a woman's only way out of the system is to recant her story. Recanting doesn't always mean it didn't happen, it can also mean that she wants to go deal with it privately and this is her way of telling the police and judicial system that she wants out.

If there was a way to receive help w/o the police, I'm sure most women would take it, and you would not see all these reports of women recanting their story.

....and that men are generally the one's who hurt women. I agree with you that mandatory reporting laws force professionals to act against the wishes of their patients/clients/students etc.. in some cases.... and I cherish individual choice above group think/forced actions 100% of the time. This is wrong in my opinion and individuals should have the right to choose whether or not in their view pressing charges is the right option for them

Where I disagree with you, is you linking people's choices (and I agree in SOME RARE INSTANCES that women will recant as their only way to get out of dealing with the legal system) with the rise in false allegations. Sorry, I don't buy that ecxuse.

As some one who has been falsely accused of sexual assault, I can tell you that false accusations arise in many cases because of the incentives the legal system hands out to women who file charges of sexual assault. In Canada (where I live), there is no more legal use of the term 'rape' and the all encompassing umbrella term 'sexual assault' is not the only term used to define just about anything. I've told the story lots of times in old posts, so I won't go through it again, but her motives for filing false charges were partially motivated by incentives offered to her by the justice system.

I do not believe that a significant portion of recantations involve real victims seeking escape from the justice system. I believe that FAR more recantations are made by people who are caught in their lies and are trying to avoid the consequences by telling the truth.

I just do not think the repeal of mandatory reporting laws (while I am 100% in favor of those laws being repealed) will have ANY effect on the number of false allegations at all.

Plus, like I said, I am not trying to keep 'real victims' in the closet,I just wish that the people who would like to take another approach for their situation that does not involve the justice system had opportunities available to seek the help they need for themselves and that help was available for those whom they wish would find the help they need as well.

But I think the VAST majority of the false allegations that appear on these pages are not victims of any kind at all - they are criminals. Men's rights is NOT about 'rolling back the clock', it's about equal rights for ALL. I do not think this page exists to keep women silent, and I do not think that the majority of women who recant were actually telling the truth in the first place. I truly believe that most who recant are FINALLY telling the truth and their original tales really were false. Feminists are the one's who use the 'women recant out of fear not because they are liars' argument to make little of the changes MRAs push for in the law. We do not want to silence victims, and in fact I believe that the feminist approach is what's silencing victims currently because they don't want the one size fits all solution that is offered.

I really do hope the men's movement welcomes the voices of the silent victims that feminists use in their imaginary statistics. Also, like I said, we have the opportunity to welcome men into the fold who are victims but don't want the current approach either.

I like you Kris, and I respect your views and am very glad you are a part of the discussions here, but sometimes I think you narrow your focus to tight and in doing so imply things that are harmful to the very nature of the men's movement. Our movement does not subscribe to the 2% myth, and your comments insinuate that that very myth has some credibility. With or without mandatory reporting laws, false accusations would still be a HUGE problem for men and boys.

Paragon,

I knew my comment would not be popular.

As far as me being "harmful to the MRA movement" I don't think all members of this group have to buy into every commonly held MRA belief. You even have some men disagreeing with each other on certain topics. Besides, how can expressing an opinion or sharing a life experience be harmful to a group? If anything it promotes discussion.

The bigger this group gets, the more distention you will see among the members. That's normal.

I also believe that never looking at the female perspective would keep the group stagnant.

When it comes to rape, men and women are on very different sides and have very different perspectives. Men are in fear of being falsely accused and women are in fear of being raped. If men and women never look at how or why the other gender is forming these opinions, the problems will never get solved.

Recanting rape stories in commonly posted here, I want to give men a perspective on why it may occur. You are free to form your own opinions. But what you had already posted above about women practically forced to come forward and press charges and the "system" jumping right in to "help" seemed to back this up.

So if a woman decides to deal with her rape privately, but the wheels of justice are already in motion, her only choice is to recant. Not true?

In your original reply you mentioned that you believe if women were not forced into the justice system through seeking medical aid for injuries suffered at the hands of their attackers, then the number of cases where the female accusing a male of rape recants would be greatly reduced. I disagree with that notion.

I do not think repeal of mandatory reporting laws would have a statistically significant effect on the number of rape claims that get recanted overall. I simply do not believe that such a large majority of cases where the alleged victim recants her claims of being raped are a result of women forced into the justice system by mandatory reporting laws. I am of the opinion that women who use false accusations for personal gain, or to avoid responsibility for their own wrong doing - in other words knowingly, purposefully, and maliciously lying - are the majority of cases where the story ultimately gets recanted when the lie gets exposed. Those are also the cases that tend to appear on these pages because those are the examples MRAs use to push for changes in the law to protect males from such a grievous injustice.

Real victims, are absolutely deserving of help, support and justice however THEY desire that to come about. No, I am not advocating an eye for an eye, or vigilante justice - I do not think two crimes cancel each other out. However, I do not believe that most of the victims who do not come forward to the police want that type of solution any more then they want the justice system to lock up their attacker and throw away the key. The hard truth about such things is the solution is that there is no one solution. The women and MEN who are silent victims, need new offers on the table that allow for a range of alternatives to demonetization of the attacker and canonization of the victim.

I am NOT ignoring the female perspective, I am trying to say we need to see the bigger picture and how it involves EVERYONE.

I just think your initial response was more in line with the point of view that is held by certain groups who are entirely devoted to the idea that men are evil and women are saints. I mean your whole response was if women were not forced to report then no one would recant a story of rape.

Women and men who are victims deserve justice if they want it, but trust me, it's not just those who are deserving of justice but not desiring of it that are the one's who are recanting their stories.

Plus, as I already said, I am glad you offer a female voice on these pages and ALL voices are welcome here. These pages have seen commenters from virtually all points of view with very little censorship and I think that's great. I commend the owners and moderators of this site for their tolerance of the comments section and their allowing the extreme voices to be challenged by those with other perspectives rather then simply censoring them. It's those characteristics that separate the mens movement from the alternatives. We do not shut our women's or anyone else's voices even when they disagree.

Nor do I think your perspective on false accusations is primarily due to your gender. I think it has more to do with your profession - you work in the medical field. So you have likely seen mandatory reporting laws result in cops showing up to interview women who have no desire to press charges at the hospital you work at. So it is completely understandable that women getting caught up in a justice system they never asked to get involved in the first place would be the first thing that comes to mind in a discussion about false rape accusation. Just, from my perspective those cases, while very real, are not anywhere near the largest incidents of women recanting accusations of rape.

>>"I just think your initial response was more in line with the point of view that is held by certain groups who are entirely devoted to the idea that men are evil and women are saints. I mean your whole response was if women were not forced to report then no one would recant a story of rape."

Sometime I think you just assume the worst in me. I have always known the genders are equal in regards to evilness and sainthood.

And on a personal level I have always preferred men to women when it comes to characteristic I look for in friends. For example I like sports, competition, I admire their strength and I feel safer around men not just as protectors, but also in emergency situations - men are far better.

I think men have a valid concern when it comes to false accusations of rape, and I am supportive in finding solutions such as harsh criminal sentencing. I did not intend for my comment to diminish that fact, but I am also supportive of alternatives to pressing rape charges that do not involve police or the justice system just like you spoke about in your original post. All women that I know that have been raped have had better outcomes by keeping it private. I think some women realize this after they have filed charges, so they recant.

I made no mention as to wether an alternative to pressing charges would greatly reduce false allegations or not. I am merely tying to offer a valid reason why some women recant.

I think it's normal for men and women to have disagreements about the numbers, percentages, etc. and probably not much we can do about it since we are on different sides of the fence. But as long as we try to work on solutions to reduce these crimes, I think we're good.

PS- right now I am bitter towards all Canadians as that hockey game really pissed me off! (if you watch the Olympics then you know what I mean.

I totally agree with you. My point was just that you saying that there would be a significant reduction in the number of rape claims being recanted if women were not forced into the one size fits all solution offered by the justice system. with that I disagree as I do not see women who are actual victims, but recant their testimony as being anywhere near a large enough group of overall false accusations that are made to make a statistically noticeable difference. Though I agree that those cases do happen and need to be taken seriously and mandatory reporting laws are more of a problem then they are worth and should be repealed.

Plus, to me things like harsh punishment for false accusers, violent offender and false accuser registries ect.... that I often mention I am in favor of seeing, in actuality I view these steps as necessary evils. Only when the overbroad and ridiculous laws start to have en effect on large enough groups within the population will enough people call these laws to be rejected as a valid solution for change to occur. I call for women to be punished as harshly as men are only so that we all start to think of better solutions then harsher and harsher punishments for ALL people rather then just for women.

Oh, and don't be mad at Canada, it's our game! Your team did FAR better then anyone ever expected them to - going in they were ranked 6th in the world and not expected to medal - so celebrate the fact that a team that on paper had no chance in hell of getting to the podium came within a hair of upsetting the worlds number one ranked team. That's a hell of an accomplishment if you ask me. But, Hockey is our game, and Gold was the ONLY acceptable outcome for our men and women. We are so proud of the performance all our athletes put forward. You guys did great to despite that little prick Apolo Ohno blaming some crazy Canadian conspiracy for his DQ in his last race.