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Bad Behavior
Submitted by Matt on Fri, 2008-03-21 18:14
All,
I received a note from Terri Lynn Tersak at True-equality.org regarding the MANN post of 3/19 announcing the release of her study.
She said she has received phone calls at the number previously appearing in that post that were not just rude but in some cases hostile to an unacceptable degree, and that those callers have referred to mensactivism.org as the source of the reason for their calls.
I am not suggesting that anyone in the thread associated with that post are among them; indeed I don't know who made such calls if they did. But I am saying that if indeed it is true she has received such calls, it makes MRAs look very, very bad and does absolutely nothing to further the cause.
The approach to take with people who you disagree with is to argue in favor of your position based on factual points and reasoned opinions. If you look at how the typical feminist responds to people who disagree with her (or him), they are usually quickly moved to a very irate state, something that used to serve them but quickly stopped doing so after men caught on to what they were doing. [After that their new approach was dissemination of false information and intense lobbying of legislators with smiling suggestions that such would lose "the women's vote" if they didn't support such-and-such a piece of legislation.]
We have seen this in action repeatedly on Fox News when Marc Rudov takes on some feminist. And each time that happens, Marc walks away looking better than when he came on, more people out there in TV-land have their sympathies and opinions swayed closer to the MRA cause, and he gets more air time from Fox as each such encounter occurs. It's true he sometimes gets annoyed but does he ever say things to the other party that could be interpreted as menacing in any way? Not that I have seen.
Think before you act, guys. It's about the cause, not the catharsis. If you want to vent, vent here.
Matt
---
Follow-up: Note the post here. Whatever individual or individuals who made such calls should now be wondering very much what got into his head to do so. I would suggest to him or them to start looking for a good lawyer or two now. And, I hope they find you.
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Comments
Define "Raw" Please....
Ouch. (A momentary bruise...)
I really learned a lot from southside....
Chivalrous PC talk?
How can your adolescent memories if honestly expressed be "P.C.?"
Raw would be good.
How do you define it, MrR?
Can we get beyond the contest?
I totally respect your combative nature, but you seem to misdirect it frequently.
You mistake me as an adversary.
That is not wise...
This site is not supposed to be Fight Club.
Friends Exiled?
I have no problems with your moderator decision Matt.
But it does raise the question --
if MRA's cannot deal with MrReality, then what happens when it comes time to confront VAWA, the Family Court system, the DV Industry, etc?
Some adversaries are your best friends.
They make you stronger.
Sun Tzu. "Art of War."
"Indefinetly?"
Until he does what?
Slipperly slope Matt....
Even though I recognize that MrReality was insulting to me, it is nothing personal.
His remarks can be accepted or rejected.
Actually, I like the guy's 'Net persona.
He can insult me for a living for all I care.
When he makes sense, I will agree with him.
When he does not, I will disagree.
But he is starting to look like he is a little self-obsessed.
That will kill your writing credibility.
MrR has a choice to make.
He understands it, I hope.
You should give him a chance to express that he is capable of learning.
It's about the purpose of the site
Good of you to play Devil's Advocate as it were.
It's about what the site is for. The incessant non-stop ad hominem attacks on others were taking from the purpose of the site to the point where it began to look a lot more like a junkyard than a proving ground. MrR simply seems to have taken on bashing people who disagree with him on a more or less full-time basis. He can do that as much as he likes on his own site, just not here. On a site like this, one should expect some roughhousing, but when it turns into a pattern esp. among individuals, for the good of sticking to the whole point of the site, these people have to be "moderated". In MrR's case, if one day he can show he can actually stay on topic about the issues without becoming a constant interference in some semblance of substantive discourse on matters, then maybe he can be un-blocked. I don't have a lot of faith that will happen, but who knows, miracles do happen. MrR is the first person in my, what, now 3, 4 year stint on MANN, maybe longer (in my old age I am losing track of time...) I have ever "booted" from this site. And believe me it was no decision made lightly nor was it made without consulting others on MANN's admin list.
There is always the tension between the 2x-standard that a mod has versus a non-mod on a commentary-heavy web site. The relationship between the people with access to the master-delete key is always disproportionate in terms of discretion and what can and can't be done. Just like a judge, cop, landlord, or anyone else that has a role of overseeing or being responsible in some way for the world around them, that is there here; that tension will never go away.
Now some site mods just accept their role as uber-cop and have no qualms about booting people at the first sign they are going against the mod's idea of the grain. Others just let things go as a free-for-all and allow other posters to do the admonishing. Here on MANN, neither strategy works for keeping substantive discussions going; a hybrid approach is needed, but one that gives people a lot of room to move. But in any case, any time a mod exercises some kind of power over a posting or the status of an account, there will always be accusations of "excessive force" or whatever. MRAs are as a group, especially likely to bristle at such things. But it's the nature of the beast.
But as for suggesting how can we tackle courts of law, etc. if we can't tackle MrR? It's apples and oranges. The environment here on the web is a completely different context than courts of law and face-to-face dealings with fembots. But if you want to see how to do so, look to some of the more active MRAs for direction, people like Glenn Sacks, Marc Rudov, or others in prominent roles within active organizations, etc. There's your examples. MANN? This is "just a web site"-- one that is important for spreading news and ideas (and also perhaps entertainment for some readers) related to men's issues, but it is a much different thing from a court of law or a face-to-face exchange with a policymaker or feminist. Like anything else, it's the context and the purpose that defines the means.
Commodities
"Like anything else, it's the context and the purpose that defines the means."
Quite like nothing else, it is the means that defines the context and the purpose...
You have no idea what a can of worms you have created!
And it's all good!
I will play Devil's Advocate until I'm banned.
That is my value to your enterprise Matt.
It is a funny kind of loyalty.
But really ... MrReality is not such a bad voice to have hanging around. If he is offensive, that is good. If he is controversial, that is also good.
Traffic Matt? To your site?
Respectfully, do not exile the heretics.
They might be your bank.
Whoa
It sure didn't take long for this thread to get out of hand. It's too bad MrReality sometimes lacks tact in his critiques.
But getting back to the matter at hand, why is it that an MRA would want to threaten somebody who's trying to make the truth about DV known to the world? Isn't that what the men's movement wants? I highly doubt the guy who phoned her was an MRA. He was likely a mangina, or a woman posing as an MRA, but at this point that's just stating the obvious. Remember boys and girls, feminists for the most part are crazy and passionately misandric and willing to do whatever it takes to win the gender war.
Evan AKA X-TRNL
Real Men Don't Take Abuse!
nevermind
I read Matt's post again so I deleted my question which was already answered.
FYI:
I just finished dinner at my sisters house but instead of socializing with my dysfunctional family I chose instead to sneak into her office and blog on MANN. My nephew is playing with Lego's right next to me and asking what I'm doing. Maybe a six year old is ready to join the movement. He's in 2nd grade is unaware of his feminized school system
When I hear the dessert announcement I'll probably eat my pastries as I type. You guys are stuck with me for another two hours.
I really need a life!
Allies or Adversaries?
I surrender Matt to your superior logic.
It is just that I always hate to see the heretics banned.
Our country was founded by heretics.
I never give up on them, until they pick up AK-47s and point them at me....
Then I dispatch them with extreme prejudice.
Looking forward to it
The debate, that is, as long as it sticks to the ideas involved. If people want to spend the bulk of their time here attacking one another ad hominem, they can go elsewhere. I am not seeing that from you, Roy, so you have no need to worry about 'banishment', no matter how pointed and direct your arguments about issues may be, to me or anyone else.
We Need Some Humor!
Things have gotten intense! Mann is engaged in a civil war. I'm sure this will blow over eventually.
Until then, please enjoy the URL below. Its not MRA related but funny as hell!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un_PjRXV5l8
Mistake City
MrReality I just applied for an account on your site because you and I have some dialogue that has not been resolved.
I look forward to our conspiracy, if you agree to it.
Southside?
Options abound
Whether MrReality is a heretic or not, he has his own web site complete with commentaries and headlines of all manner. So he may be 'banned' from MANN but I do not have him locked up in a dungeon somewhere; he is still very much in business. Feel free to sign up on his site and banter all you like with him about whatever. And, feel free to surf in here, too. There are plenty of options out here on the Internet.
Voice
Matt,
When you ban one voice...
When do you ban the next?
Do not walk down that path, because in the end, you yourself have no voice.
Good Luck
He only has members that agree with everything he believes. He can't handle anyone that doesn't kiss his ass. His MRA philosophy is dangerous. His entire gender philosophy is based on hate, anger, and probably an incident of rejection by a female he loved. Individuals like Reality aren't born that way. They have endured severe emotional scares based on years of female rejection. I've always believed a nice piece of pussy would improve his apocalyptic outlook.
Not that he's an idiot. He's actually an intelligent guy. The problem is his intellect is distorted by narracism.
I would also like to blog on his site. He's always been a crying school girl when ever I ask him if he hates women.
I hope he comes back to MANN. He's interesting but more importantly, an easy target.
Here's The Deal
Mr.R doesn't really hate all women. He's just well aware that a considerable portion of the female population are opportunistic and narcissistic. I'm well aware of this too. I'm only 22, but I've had enough encounters with shallow women to corroborate this. Perhaps he hasn't had the best experiences with women, but that's not really why he's angry and not afraid to show it.
Like he's said over and over and over again, if your kind is being screwed over, isn't anger a natural reaction? Anger is a powerful and passionate emotion, which can usually be used as a driving force. This is what he tries to do as an MRA. I'm the same way. When I'm angry, I whip out my laptop and do some writing. Unfortunately though, sometimes he does lose composure and starts to call names. I understand where he's coming from sometimes when he disagrees, but I believe he could be a bit more tactful when he does instead of calling names.
Evan AKA X-TRNL
Real Men Don't Take Abuse!
Recomendation to moderator
I've been away for a couple days, and am just now logging on and viewing additions to this thread
I'd recommend deleteting the whole thing besides maybe the topic itself and the first couple comments. This really looks bad.
You guys have been too wrapped up in commenting on this thread, to step back for a minute. That includes Matt. I know cause I've been there myself. (I'm in a particularly calm and reasonable mood right now, cause I've been driving all over the desert the last couple days. I heard a voice while on the road..'delete this thread..delete this thread..').
-ax
Thanks and welcome back
Thanks for the suggestion. Well I guess I could delete it but that would in my mind seems a bit too much like hiding the dirty laundry. Conflict, disagreement, etc? Yeah, it's in here. MRAs are if nothing else prone to conflict. "Looking bad". Well, we already look bad to 90% of the world so that hasn't changed any.
It's about actions, not anything else
I can't say whether he hates all women or not. It's not about looking into his soul or trying to interpret his motivations; it's about what he is (was) doing. If someone has a consistent pattern of using name-calling, innuendo, and personal attacks against other posters, he or she is effectively discouraging substantive communication and idea exchange not just among those who post but those who may want to post but don't because they don't want to become that person's next favorite target. Life is too short, so they stay quiet. That is not what anyone wants to see for MANN. It was his behavior, not his personality or anything else about him, that got him banned.
Good Point
Props for Matt
Matt,
You are perhaps the wisest MRA blog moderator I have ever seen.
Because you realize that "the dirty laundry" IS the movement!
We all have to get that dirty laundry out into public view!
Until it is public, it will never get washed, right?
You are doing heroic work by letting all the heretics dialogue on your site.
Thanks, Roy
But it isn't "my site" so much as it is MRAs' site. I am just here to make sure it can actually be useful for what it was meant for, that's all. I know that sounds sappy, corny, and like a load of bullsh*t, but I mean every word of it.
Vertical
A
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t
m
a
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R
a
r
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We need a movie about this...
... as I do believe one could make a successful 2-hour drama out of these past 3 days... anyway, to address your post:
I haven't "banned" MrR's voice, Roy; I doubt anyone could do that. What I have done is suspended his posting privileges on MANN indefinitely, which is to say, until he can learn some basic skills for communicating and interacting with others. As for every other web site on the Internet, corner on the street, or God knows what else, he can go to town all he likes. Just surf over to his web site to "hear" (read) all his ideas about everything. You know the URL, it's in the sig of all his posts. I'll add it here; I'll even hyperlink it for you to make it easy to get to:
http://www.wine-cellar.com/mrreality/
But to continue... think of this: legislators are members of a law-making house and represent the people. But yet even THEY have to adhere to Robert's Rules of Order or whatever the house has going. More than one representative in the Congress has been hauled out, frothing and carrying on, since he has some inability to do things like respect the orderly progression of speakers or speak civilly to his colleagues. Think of it that way and I hope that will give you some idea of what is happening here.
P.S. What happened to your post above, the first here on page 2 of the posts (currently anyway), here; it has the (new) subject of "Vertical". Did you go back and do that, or if you did, did you mean to leave it that way? Just checking.
Not There
I agree that a little potty training is necessary for some posters if they require it.
Ideas should never be banned; however if they are expressed poorly and you have all the ad hominem attacks.... that is well within any moderator's right to redirect.
I never recall or care about any post I have already made, so I can't answer your question about any previous post.
I'm not there.
MRAs Gone Wild?
Perhaps Matt is right. I bet we could make a movie that would sell about everything that's happened. We could call it MRAs Gone Wild, as my subject line says. Proceeds from it could go to help the cause. Heck, you can even add footage of me taking it off for the ladies. J/k obviously. lol.
Evan AKA X-TRNL
Real Men Don't Take Abuse!
"Conflict, disagreement, etc? Yeah"..now I see
Really? It's allowed? They why did you delete mine and Mr R's argument a while back??
It started when I merely made the comment that "heterosexual white males are currently, the only allowable target group for hate" (that was part of a lengthier comment concerning men's rights).
Based on that one statement, Mr. R. went berserk. Apparently he became incensed because he felt I was trying to take away from his race-based "victim status". Which I pointed out to him, was a misinterpretation on his part.
But I suppose you'll say that was different, because we weren't directly discussing men's rights as such. That doesn't count as "regular" dirty laundry..even though comments have been known to stray from the topic before. Like 1-2 years ago when some guys were arguing loudly about Jewish people. It had started with circumcision, but eventually worked its way to Mel Gibson's comment, and became much worse than the one between Mr. R. and me. I noticed you didn't delete any of THOSE comments.
Tell me, what counts as too un-P.C. for this board?? Perhaps you should set down some rules concerning this. Like some of the other MR boards do.
Also saying MRA's already have a bad name, as a justification for leaving these type comments posted, isn't that great from a logical standpoint. Acknowledging a vice doesn't make it a virtue. Even if the situation IS that bad, doesn't mean we should make it worse.
-ax
Guess I'll say it again
I don't recall doing that. When did that happen? But in any case though if the thread became clearly beyond redemption or a major, clear liability to the well-being of the site, then yes, I'd delete it. (Not recalling that I did it is not to say that I am denying doing it; I am just saying I don't recall it. Then again, I don't recall what I was doing this day last year at this time, either). But even in a free country (whether you believe this is one or not), you still can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater. Yes, ax, there are limits.
As for "The rules": they are the same today as they were last month, as they were last year. If the amount of personal invective begins to undo the purpose of the board, then I will take action. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's the nature of the mod role. My position here is not just to go through submissions and post this or that. This web site has a purpose, as both I and others have repeatedly articulated: the exchange of ideas associated with men's issues and the MRA cause. When it becomes something else, you should take it someplace else. People who can't do that eventually have to be moderated. The degree of moderation is commensurate with the level of their behavior. In MrR's case, he warranted getting the boot-- the only such time I have had to do so.
No ideas are too un-P.C. for this board. MRAs are inherently un-P.C. people, at least for now anyway. What isn't allowed is incessant personal attacks and a clear pattern of use of vulgar and defamatory behavior, especially if it seems there is no apparent purpose but to do it. Being a site mod is a discretionary role and I don't expect everyone to agree with every decision I make, just as I don't agree with every decision other site mods make elsewhere.
Redemption?
"...clearly beyond redemption..?"
I am starting to get a little concerned about the religious implications of Matt's moderation.
Can you please describe my pathway to "redemption?"
Just kidding.
Not.
*sigh*...
I do believe anything I may say can and will be used against me... the idea that I have any religious inclinations to speak of is beyond ludicrous, but I can't fault you for not knowing that, since we've never met. Well, maybe one day...
100? posts
This thread will eventually hit a 100 posts. Whats the record?
I think...
... it may already be set by this thread.
Grenadines?
That would be really fun Matt!
I propose a venue in Westerhall, St. David's parish in rural Grenada. (Southeast side of the island and mostly goat farmers who will immediately get your humor...)
I'll try to arrange it!
I was not implicating that you have a religious bias at all.
Just some usual rhetorical play....
Your site is all about nuances.
To your credit!
BTW - The "sigh" was disturbing....
Easy
I forgot to ask Matt.
How many easy girls can you deliver?
And, how many of them will be smart?
I'll see what I can scare up
Granada may be a selling point. :)
Could Happen!
Before I spring for the trip back to my island's home town of St. George's, I will need some profiles of the wonderful females you have as friends.
You realize we are dangerously close to trafficking?
I really hope you are not an FBI agent.
This is all rhetorical.
Except for the actual villa in Petite Bicaye.
It's all just good fun.
Smart Girl?
Did you hear about blonde that had a bad day?
She couldn't find her pencil but had a tampon behind her ear.
I just couldn't resist that one.
A movie? Good idea
I know who could play Reality:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2mClfU2NStY
Ad Hominum Attacks
I'm having trouble understanding the difference between what is being asserted as to the reason for MrReality's restriction from posting on this site and the above post of yours.
Would you call this an ad hominum attack? If not, please explain. For whatever reason, do you feel that your postings should receive special treatment? Maybe because you feel that you are so much more intelligent than he, when you do it, it shouldn't count?
So what should Matt do to keep things on this site from at least not appearing to be unfair and biased? Should you get a "token" punishment justified by branding your seeming attack "not as bad" or should you get the same "punishment" as Mr. Reality for the good of the site?
By the way, you may treat the above questions as rhetorical as I have no desire to get into a pissing contest with you. These questions are mainly meant for all others left at this site. I'm sure all or at least most others here are interested in fair treatment of all and equal enforcement of the rules.
I know. I know. I had previously stated elsewhere that I was leaving MANN and wouldn't post here in the future. In fact, I had deleted the mensactivism cookie from my browser and blocked future cookies from this site, so I had a bit of trouble getting back on. I guess I just couldn't help myself in this instance. I'll reinstate my ban immediately upon posting this comment and do my darndest not to fall prey to future such postings of yours and others at this site.
******** Update ********
I spoke with Terry today. He said the police will issue the man a citation instead of filing charges because after checking into his record, they found he has no other offenses of any kind (not even a traffic ticket), and he is showing a great deal of contrition. The Tersaks are however considering civil action, but are waiting to find out if his actions were prompted by some kind of transient pertinent stressor (eg, is he in a custody battle now or something else like that). But if not and they think they have reason to be further concerned, they'll see what they can do on a civil level.
That's that. If I have any more news, I'll post here.
Good
I hope that ass wipe gets whats coming to him.
I wonder what the 'troll' patrolling this site thinks?
Actually, I'd rather not know what Ms. Delusion thinks. I stay away from hate sites.
..........................................................
"The sunshine bores the daylights out of me.
Chasing shadows moonlight mystery."
[Rolling Stones]
Dittohd [redux]
"So what should Matt do to keep things on this site from at least not appearing to be unfair and biased? Should you get a "token" punishment justified by branding your seeming attack "not as bad" or should you get the same "punishment" as Mr. Reality for the good of the site?"
I was put on moderation about a month ago for inappropriate comments. So stop your bitching and contact Matt if you have issues. I'll continue to write what ever the hell I want until I'm told to stop.
As far as I know I didn't attack a member of MANN with my last post. Come on! It was funny!
As for you leaving MANN? Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
..........................................................
"The sunshine bores the daylights out of me.
Chasing shadows moonlight mystery."
[Rolling Stones]
Amnesty for MrR?
Matt,
Didn't you state that he was "indeterminately suspended?"
That's not really like being banned, right?
It's more like, when your mood changes, MrReality can get another chance?
This guy is like a really bad friend.
The one who always calls you when his girl dumps him.
But a friend, nevertheless.
And I suspect he is very young.
He writes pretty well.
I do not ever take his insults personally.
Though he can be insulting as hell.
Let his voice mature.
And, he will have to take some responsibility for his efforts at actual dialogue.
I think MrReality and I may have had a knife fight in Kingston, Jamaica at 3 am on Kings Road just outside Channel One Studios.
You know the place? Where Bob Marley recorded?
Just good fun between mates!
"Indefinitely"
Yes, this means without a definite end. MrR can come back to MANN after he learns to play better with others. Roy, it is not about whether you like what he does or says to you. It's about his behavior on the site, period, and that is made up of actions leveled at more people than just yourself. If you want to enjoy MrR's fellowship, register on his site and banter with him there.
Attacking people who have no
Attacking people who have no means of defending themselves is very poor form.
Have to agree with Ditto.
Have to agree with Ditto. This looks like an attack to me and what makes it worse is that the person being attacked can't respond and is basically defenseless. IMO this is bullying.
Victim?
Have I victimized someone? And if so, who? Does this individual not have his own forum to launch attacks?
..........................................................
"The sunshine bores the daylights out of me.
Chasing shadows moonlight mystery."
[Rolling Stones]
Makes Sense, but............
"Have to agree with Ditto."
He's not here to contribute, just to stir some controversy. Infact, he's stated he's not affiliated with MANN anymore. I'm not bullying any member of this site.
Ditto just dropped in to criticize.
I stand by my comments.
..........................................................
"The sunshine bores the daylights out of me.
Chasing shadows moonlight mystery."
[Rolling Stones]
Issue him a citation? For a
Issue him a citation? For a death threat? This seems a bit odd to me. If someone threatens to kill another person on the phone, to a little child no less, that person should be punished with something considerably more stern than a citation don't you think? Isn't that like a parking ticket? Maybe I just don't know about this stuff. What sort of citation? What's up with this?
He's not a poster anymore
Tom, MrR is no longer a poster on MANN. Like the many people that get ragged on here on MANN (eg: Hillary or any other feminist) who are not registered members, MrR may get talked about negatively. If talking negatively about individuals were not permitted, any criticisms of any policy maker or anyone else would thus be "offenses". To clarify, again, the rule is, don't indulge a pattern of using personal attacks against other posters on MANN or else you land in trouble. MrR is not a poster on MANN. It's pretty simple, really.
But before you reply, look at MrR's site:
http://www.wine-cellar.com/mrreality/
Most of his stuff is open and undisguised insulting (or to use your word, attacking) of me, anthony, Roy, or anyone else here on MANN who has the audacity to keep visiting the site! Have you tried to register and post comments on his site? If you are not someone he wants there, he won't approve your acct. If you try to post something he doesn't agree with, he will delete your account and probably write an essay about what a feminist lackey sissy you are, too. Only commentary he agrees with is permitted. So if you suggest that "attacking" someone when they don't have the means to defend themselves is wrong, be sure to go tell that to MrR as well. But don't count on your post making it to the site. And just because he is not allowed to post on MANN anymore does not mean he lacks a means of "self-defense"; his entire web site is just that, as well as a means of offense, too! Really, the sense of outrage this fellow entertains is truly remarkable given the degree to which his own house falls way short of his own declared standards.
But, that is fine for him, if that's what he wants for his site. It may serve his particular purposes, but his site does not seem to be in the same general category of purpose that MANN's is in.
Falls short
I agree it falls way short. He should at least be facing a misdemeanor, IMJ. Problem is, this case will not win any officers promotion to corporal, nor any asst. DAs a chance at the big office. No blood was spilled, no damage to property. The way police are looking at things these days, given how much crime there is, an angry threatening call from a man who lives over 1 1/2 hours from the place he called who otherwise has no criminal or even violation record of any kind, is a low priority for serious prosecution. Alas, 'tis the world we now live in.
I have more Ditto
What separates this site from others is simple. We're given the opportunity to impact unjust gender issues. Our voices are not dictated by a totalitarian ideology that ignores individual perspective. Are there rules, absolutely, but the rules are an easy assimilation. It takes a lot to get booted from this site. Intelligent and tolerant contributions have made Mann a successful MRA battle ground that identifies male injustice. This is not a site based on arrogance or ego. We are not manipulated by some arrogant [wannabee] messiah. This site has an impact on the most important MRA issues. This is the reason why MANN is a vital and intricate cog towards the MRA movement.
..........................................................
"The sunshine bores the daylights out of me.
Chasing shadows moonlight mystery."
[Rolling Stones]
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