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I'm not sure what the problem is here. Was the girl capable of doing the job? If she wasn't, that's a problem with Title IX, I'll agree, if she was placed on the team simply to fill a gender quota. If she was able to perform the function to which she was assigned, then there's no problem, from my point of view, and certainly not from a Title IX vantage.
The St.Mary's team forfeited, which is their right, and stuck to their guns. Good for them. If they want to teach their young men that beating the crap out of each other is perfectly fine, but that beating the crap out of a female is not, that's their business. Seems pretty stupid to me. Frankly, beating the crap out of anyone is not a message I'd want to send to anyone, boy or girl.
Severin
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by Anonymous User on 01:24 AM November 5th, 2004 EST (#5)
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I think the issue is that it's not fair to the guys, for a number of reasons. One is, as someone else stated, that there's not likely to be any chance in hell that they'd let a guy onto a girls' sports team, so why should they have to put up with a girl on a guys' sports team? Sounds like a double standard, associated with the current silly mentality that females can't be excluded from anything for any reason, while there are many female exclusive clubs, teams, organizations, etc., out there that have no problem excluding guys. Hell, even in the electronics entertainment industry (video games), they now have girls-only camps for budding game developers, women-in-gaming conferences...but I digress.
Another point of unfairness is this: Football is really rough. You have to feel free to use force on the opposing team, to the limit of the rules of course. You are not going to feel that way if you are facing off against a girl, especially if she is smaller than you (very likely, especially if you're a male football player), whom you could seriously injure. If she gets injured, or anything bad happens with her at all, you will be blamed, and labeled as a bully, whereas if she manages to take you down or hurt you, you will be labeled as a wimp. That's not an even playing field.
I ran into something like this in the martial arts field, in a smaller way.
I was a higher-ranking colored belt in a martial arts class, where several of us were practicing, and taking turns sparring, etc. I was asked to spar against a female white belt, in the hopes that I could teach her something by doing so. I had noticed that the other guys working with her were babying her to the extreme, not really challenging her or having her react to anything resembling normal speed, etc. It was doing her no good at all. I therefore tried a little harder to get her to react properly, going at about one third of normal speed and power, and repeating simple moves so she could react to them. She did't really do well, because she'd been spoiled by the others, and I stopped after a short time. We wore proper padding, she was not hurt, and made no complaint (another reason for my doing this was that I did not want to insult her by treating her differently from the way I'd treat a male white belt). The problem was with the other men there...after the session, a couple of them took me aside and said I was too hard on her, and basically treated me like I was a bully. They fell silent after I explained that I had been going at about one-third normal, but I could tell they held it against me. That was the last time I sparred a female in that school, because I felt they had put me in an unfair position, by first requesting that I spar with her, then reprimanding me when I try to handle it in a respectful, mature fashion.
There are very good reasons why we have separate divisions for male and female sports. Our physical capabilities are not the same, and men have the additional handicap of social bias to work with (the whole bully/wimp perception thing, depending on if you win or lose), or the fact that from an early age we have it drummed into our skulls that you cannot use physical force against a girl, that it is wrong, and it is dishonorable. Women have no such codes of honor, no such upbringing telling them not to use force against men...on the contrary, they are told to use weapons against us, kick us in the groin, claw at our eyes...anything to reduce our advantages in size and strength.
As I said, not an even playing field.
-B. Riddick
"All you people are so scared of me...but I'm not the one you've gotta worry about now." (Riddick, Pitch Black)
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...and men have the additional handicap of social bias to work with (the whole bully/wimp perception thing, depending on if you win or lose)
This highlights the biggest reason I think the forfeiting school did a disservice to their male team members. In today's society men have to learn to compete with women for all kinds of opportunity, in education, on the job, and in every other field of endeavor. Teaching boys that it is their role to watch out for females and take care of them just sets them up for a life of failure; they'll be treating half of their competitors with kid gloves, just as you describe, B. Riddick (and its my observation that this attitude carries over into fields that have nothing to do with physical strength). On the contrary, boys need to be taught to do their very best, and feel good about surpassing their competitors, male or female.
I agree the social attitudes against this are strong, but we have to start somewhere.
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I agree the social attitudes against this are strong, but we have to start somewhere.
Absolutely. If we do nothing but continue to follow "traditional" ideas, nothing will ever change, and we will continue to have a broken system. Understand, that I believe that both men and women have to be willing and able to adapt, or social improvement will fail.
And B.Riddick, as for the martial arts field, a good friend of mine is a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and an instructor, and he has made it a point not to treat the women differently from how he treats the men. Many of the women respond positively, and recognize that he is respecting them enough not to baby them. Those that don't leave quietly, with no repercussions. Most of the other men follow my friend's lead, although some are still too tied to old ideas, or are too afraid to incur the wrath of the sexual harrassment industry to spar with them as equals. Those that follow the lead find that they can also be challenged by the women, who are becoming very good competitors. Those that don't find themselves hitting the mat with startling regularity.
Whether or not men would be allowed on predominantly female teams is a separate point, and there is no evidence to suggest that such would be frowned upon, at least in this case. We shouldn't argue from evidence that doesn't exist.
Severin
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by Anonymous User on 01:27 PM November 5th, 2004 EST (#9)
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I hear what you and Mark are saying, and I agree, we can't afford to stick to traditional values. I was not arguing that we should, I was simply stating what I saw as some issues the guys probably had with the situation, and why those were in fact valid issues. I myself am someone who doesn't use kid gloves when it comes to dealing with women, and I'm considered a bastard by some because of it.
I understand where the guys are coming from.
-B. Riddick
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Yeah, I know what you mean. Sometimes I get flak from some people because I don't pull my (figurative) punches if I'm dealing with women in political or academic discourse. I don't mean to make it sound as if it isn't an issue at all. I feel for those guys on St. Mary's team, or for any guys who'd find themselves in that kind of situation. It's tough not to be deeply affected by the social pressures we've grown up with.
For myself, I focus on the women who seem to respect that I don't treat them any differently than I do anyone else.
Sean
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See, my view on this whole thing is a little different. I see the St. Mary's decision to be a strike against the PC notion that men and women are identical when everyone knows that they're not. And I'm afraid that, if we take the view of Severin, here, then we're playing into the hands of the feminists who do buy it. Football is a highly physical sport in which men have a variety of advantages over women (in fact, I can't think of any feminine characteristic that gives them ANY advantage), and it eminently transforms the game for men when women are involved. Accept for a moment that the boys (in this case) can be trained to ignore the sex of the opposing player (I believe they can). Even if their intent is to treat them without recognition for gender, blocking a lighter woman or chasing down and tackling a slower woman changes the game. I think back to when I was a kid playing the neighborhood yards with a broader age and weight range among the players, some of whom were girls, then I think to when I played in high school. The two instances of the game were VERY different.
Forcing the integration of women into the game changes the nature of the game, and if we like the game the way it is (I do), why should we be compelled accept that? Moreover, suppose that this change occurs in your school and suppose the reduced competitivenes it imparts compromises your chances of getting a football scholarship to college? With falling enrollment among men, why should we accept THAT?
It would appear that many of the guys here want to see the same changes to men and masculinity that William Pollack suggests. To each his own, but I don't buy it. Football is a masculine game, and although I don't have any problem with women playing football, I DO have a problem with men and women playing this game on the same team. It unreasonably damages the game for men to the benefit of women, and that's happening far too often.
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From the article:
"But in the year 2004, one would hope that individuals would not stereotype boys' and girls' athletics to the point where they wouldn't play a football game if a girl is on the team," Rick Bowden, assistant executive director of the association, told the Star. "It's a disservice to the young ladies in the state."
Fair enough. Which raises the question - Does that means that boys are free to join girls’ sports teams? Will the PC crowd support the boys that want to play on a school’s softball team?
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This is exactly the point. Women always want their own teams and sports and the right to exclude men, but men are supposed to accept women even on male-only teams. Why can't we have segregated sports for boys and girls? Boys shouldn't be allowed on the girls' gymnastic team, even if they are competent. Same with field hockey, or volleyball, or soccer. Just because there may be a couple females that don't suck at sports doesn't mean they have the right to crash male sports teams. Of course, in the case of football, I'd bet this girl does indeed suck. But as always, that doesn't matter if you're a girl. I'm sure the people placing the girl on the football team think they are breaking down barriers, but really they are performing the standard social engineering - enforcing the acceptance of lower standards for people based on gender.
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by Anonymous User on 02:30 AM November 5th, 2004 EST (#6)
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it seems to me that many women do not understand that often men do not want to play sports with women because we have to hold back and not play as rough, hard, and as competitive, as when we are only playing with other men.
It's not much fun to play when you have to worry not only about yourself and your team, but also being delicate enough for the female/s of the opposing team, or competitor.
It just isn't fun. With other guys it's expected that if it isn't played hard then it isn't fun.
And then when we don't want to play with women because of the imposition of them dictating their female entitlements on all the men there we called chauvenist sexist pigs. While the women get to play as hard or not as hard as they want against the guys...
(by the way, off topic, but this sort of also reminds me of how some women 'knowingly',, unconciously or not, that they have a certain degree of leeway with being physically abusive towards their male mate before the man hits back. And they exploit this, and then all men get implicated as abusers when these men who are being provoked get pushed further than they can hold back...Yet, all men know that this degree of leeway isn't applied to the men who provoke other men..deep down women know this but don't admit it...well, i just wanted to get that off my hairy chest.ha)
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by Anonymous User on 06:26 PM November 5th, 2004 EST (#11)
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If chicks want to play a man's game, all it will take is for a Roy William's wannabe to send Barbie to the emergency room with a legal, but lethal hit. No more, no less than what would be levied at a man/boy.
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I kind of wish that the article, instead of simply trying to show this was the way of evil liberals, had been more informative about the situation - was the girl a good player or did their own team think she had only been allowed on because of a treat of sexual discrimination? Was she 4'11" and 85lb or 5'10" and 200lb? Had she been trained at the same rigorous level as her teammates or had her training been 'lighter?'
Now, I've played football a total of once in my life. And I suck - it was fun, but I suck. I can run and catch and handle being tackled pretty well but can't actually drag down someone of similar build for the life of me. Or, ya know, throw.
So I'll turn to the bf, who actually did play highschool football -
"one thing, whatever she weighed [luna's note: the bf is 6'3" and 160lb - he has a lighter build than I do] doesn't matter, if she can play she can play, no one is going to be able to tell if that is a girl player or not under padding - which also rules out threat of 'inappropriate touching.'" [bf also feels that not allowing boys to play on girl teams is discrimination]
The main moaning in the article seemed to be centered around the fact that saying it was okay for girls to play football against boys meant that it was okay for boys to hit girls [of course it also felt girls shouldn't play football at all, but never mind that] which is bad.
I feel that is pretty unfair to any contact sports players, obviously running up to some random person and tackling them is wrong, or punching them if you box, or whatever. Com'on, they aren't that dumb.
Finally, unfortunately, I think this WILL go the way of the military, if women aren't playing up to standards, they will lower the standards. I'm not really sure how, make a quota for each team? Whatever, it'll suck, the real problem here is football has become a paragon of male activity. Therefore random women have to keep trying to get into it - instead of, ya know, making a women's team/league/association whatever.
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by Anonymous User on 10:30 AM November 6th, 2004 EST (#14)
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Locally, their was an issue of two high school boys wanting to join their girls high school field hockey team as there was no male field hockey. They made the team (obviously)and as I understand it the girls and coaches of the team did not make an issue of it. It was the opposing teams who thought it was a danger to their players, they said the one boy was too tall! But their is no height limit, one female coach questioned the boys "motives". I guess you must really like a sport if you are willing to play with girls.
I thought well it is about god damn time, they are now getting what they have been giving for so long. I've lost track of the story. But it makes me sick every time they give an exemption like in the PGA, just think of some hard working male golfer who deserves to be there, but they give to some person who happens not to have a female gender. And then when they don't even make the cut they still rub it in our face by saying, well she beat more guys than Billy Jean King. And praise Vijay Singh for having some balls!
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