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by Anonymous User on Thursday May 15, @09:07PM EST (#1)
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Firstly,
I won't blame women for having escapist fantasies, even if that means running out on their husbands and children...as long as they stay fantasies. Nearly everyone has fantasies they wouldn't want to share with their partners. It doesn't mean they are a threat to act on them though.
Secondly,
I hate all of the beating the reader over the head with justification for this. Yes we know this woman - like all women - are selfless everyday heroinnes who work 25 hours a day reading to the blind, nurturing children and caring for lost kittens, blah, blah, blah...
I swear if Hitler was a woman we would here how her ex-boyfriend told her her butt was big and she was traumatized for life becasue of it and she was just a hapless victim of male cruelty.
No offense intended but these women have got to get a f*ck*ng grip!
Mark
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by Anonymous User on Thursday May 15, @11:34PM EST (#3)
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"Firstly,
I won't blame women for having escapist fantasies, even if that means running out on their husbands and children...as long as they stay fantasies. Nearly everyone has fantasies they wouldn't want to share with their partners. It doesn't mean they are a threat to act on them though."
True, notice though how the article starts our rationally saying fantasies are ok then moves on to cheer Dar on for her actions almost making them heroic. This editorial is simply a justification for Dar's actions.
"Secondly,
I hate all of the beating the reader over the head with justification for this. Yes we know this woman - like all women - are selfless everyday heroinnes who work 25 hours a day reading to the blind, nurturing children and caring for lost kittens, blah, blah, blah..."
Yep she has to escape from the horrid life of having a successful career, a middle upper class life, being respected by the citizens of the city and having a adoring husband. I feel so sorry for her.
"I swear if Hitler was a woman we would here how her ex-boyfriend told her her butt was big and she was traumatized for life becasue of it and she was just a hapless victim of male cruelty.
No offense intended but these women have got to get a f*ck*ng grip!"
No, No, No, her husband would have been abusive and she would have had a modified version of Stolkholm syndrome where she learned to love her abuser and become like him. It wouldn't be her fault because she was a victim suffering from a mental illness. This is the justification some feminists used for Karla Holmoka.
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I agree that there is nothing particularly shameful about having fantasies like this; there probably isn't a human being alive who hasn't daydreamed about leaving the tedium of their everyday life and running away on some adventure. Still, if you lack the maturity/self control/whatever to distinguish idle fantasy from achievable reality, you have to suffer the consequences.
One thing no one has pointed out, though: this woman's husband was pretty lucky. Instead of deciding to actually run away with another man, she could have filed for divorce (with a false allegation of abuse if necessary) and wound up with the house, the kids and a tidy sum in child support or maybe even alimony. By handling her life crisis the way she did, she did him a huge favor!
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Oh, but it is. If I ever puke up a fantasy like this, will one of you please, please, please shoot me in the goddamned head? Really, this stuff makes me ashamed. If you want the house is Greece with the roses, you shouldda moved there instead of deciding "I am going to have a little picket fence and nice rich husband to support me." And no, I don't really feel sorry for you, because if you thought that you wouldn't find being a parent/house wife/blah boring then you're a moron.
Yes, okay, men AND women often wish to escape from the tedium of their current life. However, the author seems to imply that women do this because they are so put-upon in society, since they do all the boring child-raising, since they have to manage all the work. Poor baby. So it's okay for them to think about this. Even, maybe, for them to do this.
However, if a man does this he's an evil, deadbeat, no responsibility, no thought for his poor wife [who's been volunteering for charity and everything] and no thought for his abandoned children.
Double standard?? Where??
This whole concept, the trap of marriage, routine, obigation, is the reason my boyfriend is freaked out, doesn't wanna think about it anymore. I can't really say I blame him, especially where he'd be the bad guy in the situation.
So, if I start getting escapist fantasies, can you save him the trouble? I'll supply the ammo.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday May 15, @11:36PM EST (#4)
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My wife said about the same things as you just did when she read the article. It's good to know some women out there still believe in faithfullness.
-Andrew74
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This whole concept, the trap of marriage, routine, obigation, is the reason my boyfriend is freaked out, doesn't wanna think about it anymore.
crescentluna: I've always enjoyed reading your posts. It's good to see you're still around. I'm curious about your statement that I quoted, because I like to have an idea of how younger men and women are dealing with all the changes in relations between the sexes today. So, a couple questions, which I understand you may choose not to answer...
Is your boyfriend freaked out over the trap of marriage, routine, obligation, the whole concept because he doesn't want routine and obligation (these have, no doubt, bothered many people in the past) or is he freaked out because he feels that marriage and the associated obligation and even routine have become a one way street that oppresses men but leaves women far more freedom? If he's freaked out because of the imbalance and because he'll be the bad guy if anything goes wrong, do the other men your age that you and he know generally feel the same?
All the best, and thanks in advance if you feel like answering.
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I'll go ahead and respond as an older guy, T.
In a word, been there, done that, and cost me a small fortune. It'll be a cold day in hell before I ever even get involved with a woman to the point where the "M" word is mentioned, let alone go through with any such thing.
Let's say I was a young buck - what does marriage offer me?
Regular sex? Hm. Ever hear of the Sexual Revolution? Womyn's newfound sexual freedom and liberation? Sex is for the taking, man. Just be single. Sometimes it doesn't even take that.
More money? Nope. Higher standard of living? Nope. Greater freedom? Nope. Respect? Er, ain't ya heard? The "Husband Archetype" is the great oppressor.
How about a chance to lose everything I have earned by the sweat of my own brow, a chance to have children that I can be estranged from on a woman's whim, and the opportunity to be the victim of false allegations of rape, spousal abuse, child abuse, and/or incest? And to top it off, my "wife" can probably kill me, and still be out of prison before she hits menopause.
Sorry, Luna. You may be a fine woman. Probably are. But would *YOU* take that chance? Would you roll those dice in such a patntly rigged game?
Some men would - god knows our pussywhipped anonytroll from a couple threads back would huff, puff, proclaim it the duty of "real men" to suck it up and take it in the ass, and call those of us with a few brain cells a bunch of sissies. (Personally, I thinki with the amount of shaming language used, it indicates that our anonytroll was probably a MS, but that's another theory - very feminine arguing style it had there.)
Nope. Not me, though.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Hi TGK,
I agree with pretty much all that you say. Marriage strikes me as completely stupid for a man today. Benefits? Chuckle. Risks? Endless.
What I'm trying to get a handle on, though, is whether younger men are conscious of this and are starting to protect themselves, of if they imagine that marriage today entails no more than the same obligations that it has always entailed, and they don't feel like dealing with those obligations.
If younger men are becoming aware of what's going on, at least with the changes in marriage and having children, and they are shunning marriage and fatherhood as a result, then that is rising power in the men's movement, albeit a power that will be exercised to a large extent one man at a time.
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If younger men are becoming aware of what's going on, at least with the changes in marriage and having children, and they are shunning marriage and fatherhood as a result, then that is rising power in the men's movement, albeit a power that will be exercised to a large extent one man at a time.
Another anecdote from the gym, where I work out:
A few days ago I was in the steam room alone and a young man and young woman, both about in their upper twenties, came in. They chatted for a while about two friends, a couple, who had just returned from a trip to the Balkans. Then in a voice with a changed tone--warm, like she was presenting a fine meal she had prepared, but also with a decided edge of pleading--she said that their woman friend found out she was pregnant while they were in Greece and that their friends' relationship deeply changed with that revelation.
The man responded in a serious voice, "Don't go getting any ideas."
The woman turned to the door, and they both sat in silence for two or three minutes before she, without a word, left. He sat there in silence for about another five minutes, when I left.
I wonder if he is a man who has had his "Aha!" moment.
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I don't disagree with anything you've said, Thomas, or anything anyone else has said, about the dangers and disadvantages of marriage for men today. Still, I have to admit that all this talk makes me a little sad, and a little scared. Sad because I think there are a lot of loving women out there who are being rejected and not finding the affection that they need, and scared because I really wonder sometimes how this is all going to end. The relations between the sexes today make me think of the variant on the game of chicken, where instead of driving at each other the participants drive towards a wall or a cliff and the one who stops or turns first is the loser. Women seem to hold on to their agenda very tightly, and as a man I can't see our side giving up on ours, either. Maybe neither one of us will realize it's too late until we're both headed over the cliff together.
Just some random, rather depressing thoughts.
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I think there are a lot of loving women out there who are being rejected and not finding the affection that they need
Don't just think it, Mark. Know it for a fact.
It's up to these women, though, to make the final step. To reject and publicly renounce "feminism," and begin to exercise some give for all their take, and to move to roll back the abomination of one-sided chivalry.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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I discussed the matter of marriage with my sons in this light - cost/benefits comparison. They have talked with contemporaries with a similar view. In my (limited) experience, the idea that marriage is a game not worth the candle for men is spreading, among younger men. Regrettably, there are plenty of horrible examples in their own lives to point to. Their fathers, brothers, uncles..... I think they are getting the idea.
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by Anonymous User on Friday May 16, @09:16PM EST (#11)
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As a guy in my late 20's I'll give my 2 cents worth. The general consensus among my friends and others our age that i observe is this...they are aware of the risks at some level but don't focus on them much. They - like most men of years past i suppose - don't really think of marriage at all. their thoughts about girls usually are more about getting laid...which is much easier now than i understand it was years back. of this fact - how easy scoring can be - everyone is aware, and i think that (not so much the risks) is the single biggest deterent to wanting to get hitched.
Also, guys now seem to finally be aware of the sneaky, manipulative nature of women and aren't as fooled by the sugar and spice routine as men were in the past.
in short, we're catching on but there is still work to be done and more learning is needed.
Mark
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by Anonymous User on Saturday May 17, @01:07AM EST (#12)
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I'm in my twenties and I mostly just want to be left alone to live my life without some feminist hag degrading me by nature of my birth or some prick telling me what I have to do to be a real man.
I don't hate women but I hate a system that allows them to have unrestrictive power in some areas. I worry a lot about my son and what kind of life he is going to have.
I'm tired of hearing statements about how all men are supposed to be this or that, almost always negative.
As for dating I'm married now but when I dated I didn't chase after women. I also never was intrested in dating a women that wasn't working and able to support herself.
Just my thoughts if you are intrested in them.
-Andrew74
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Makes ya wonder what Chavez would say about this case, doesn't it? What with her belief that mothers are more important than fathers and all that rubbish. However, in this case, it is the mother who is a worthless piece of crap, and the father and children are the victims. The mother abandons the family, while the father stays loyal.
So much for "traditional roles", eh? I sense a new tradition emerging: One in which women can do whatever they want with no consequences. (Or minimal consequences at best.) One in which they can abandon the partners they made a vow to and the children they bore, while at the same time still maintaining their "I'm a mother therefore I'm more important" mentality. After all, that's traditional.
Chavez would be proud.
"Existence exists. A is A." -Ayn Rand
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