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by Anonymous User on Saturday March 08, @04:51PM EST (#1)
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did we already discuss this here
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by Anonymous User on Saturday March 08, @06:31PM EST (#2)
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This issue is not trivial. If an employer insisted that people of a certain race had to wear a particular form of clothing , there would (rightly) be an outcry. Archfeminist Mary Robinson didn't think it trivial when women had to wear hats on certain occasions when she was at university. Feminists don't think it's trivial when women have to wear a veil in Islamic countries. Any man who accepts being forced to wear a tie is accepting the principle of discrimination. Men shouldn't accept compulsory tie wearing for the same reasons Rosa Parkes didn't accept sitting in the back of the bus.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday March 09, @12:53PM EST (#4)
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I may be showing some of my own cultureal ignorance here, but...,
Just what the heck is a tie for, anyway...?
Does it have a symbolic purpose, Decorative, or is it just a superfluous piece of fabric, with no specific meaning at all.
To me it has always symbolized a leash or something.
I see women use it as such on men, freaquently.
That is why if I ever wear one (and I RARELY do) I wear a clip-on. If anyone (usualy a woman) tries to "lead me around " with it, it just pops
off.
I also find it weird that if a tie has no specific purpose, that in a "profesional" job I am not allowed to wear my hair in traditional braids which have both cultureal and religious significance, but am required to wear a tie which seems to contain neither.
Just weird, I guess.
Thundercloud.
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I actually don't have a problem, per se, with a company enforcing a dress code. However, it MUST be consistent. ANd I'm of the opion that the FIRST rule of any dress code should be:
1) Unreasonably provocative dress or behavior will not be tolerated.
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To answer your question about where ties came from, they came from the Croatians by way of France. The original name for ties was cravat, which came from the French word cravate, meaning Croat. French kings used to hire Croatian mercenaries. Louis XIV observed that the Croat officers all wore brightly colored kercheifs or bands of cloth around their necks, and decided he liked them. He formed a batallion called the Royal Cravattes that all wore them. The male French citizens soon followed, and it wasn't long before the fashion crossed the channel into England.
So there might be your solution to getting rid of them. Let the feminazis know that they are military in origin, and pretend that you like that fact. In no time at all they will have the sisterhood convinced that ties are a symbol of male opression of females and they will get them banned from all public places.
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 10, @01:45PM EST (#8)
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RPB,
Thank you for that info.
I had no idea where ties came from or what they were for.
As far as "getting rid of them" I don't particularly want to do that, I just don't, personaly, feel one should be made to wear them if one is un-comfortable wearing one or even simply doesn't WANT to wear one.
Dressing nice for a job IS a good thing, but why such stringent demands that one gender be made to wear a garment that is often restricting and/or un-comfortable, right?
I mean, it's not un-like demanding that women wear corsettes(SP?) and we all KNOW what would happen if that were the case. Women would be picketting and crying "SEXISM!". And frankly, I'd be on their side, on this one.
I was just wondering..., If it were demanded that men in the work-place had to wear a BOOT on their heads, I wonder how many men would do it without question...?
Well, anyway. Thanks again for the lesson on neck-ties 101.
Thundercloud.
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The tribunal decdied that a dress code for men and not for women was discriminatory.
(This was never about ties, it was about dress codes)
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So the short answer seems to be; if you are fired for not wearing the required tie -- then you have been fired for being a man. Clear sex discrimination.
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From
Question Time, BBC 1 TV, Thursday 6th March 2003
"Topical debate with a panel of prominent public figures and an invited audience, chaired by David Dimbleby. This edition comes Bedford, with Charles Clarke MP, Secretary of State for Education and Skills, Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister Alan Duncan MP, author and academic Germaine Greer and broadcaster Clive Anderson."
Most of the time was spent on Iraq, plus some questions about taxation and other political items until we get to the end when there is a "lighter" question, but only time for a quick answer.
Victoria West, audience member: "Does the panel think that ordering men to wear ties and not women constitutes sexual discrimination?"
David Dimbleby, chair: "There's been a couple of cases, one is a prison officer in Devon, the most beautiful county in the World as we heard, who was ordered to wear a tie, complained and was sacked for not wearing a tie, and the other somebody who was in the background in the tax office or something who was never seen by anybody was made to wear a tie,and he thinks this was discrimination against men. Germaine Greer, what do you think?"
Germaine Greer: (laughs, audience laughs, adopts matronising tone) "It must be dreadful having to wear a tie, you poor things"
David Dimbleby, chair: "Listen. You're not ordered to wear anything" (laughter) "You're not ordered to wear nothing!".
Germaine Greer: "I'm ordered to wear clothes and I'm a naturist. If that's the worse you've got to complain of, really!. Honestly chaps. I do think it's absurd that somebody can be dismissed for not wearing a tie or whatever. That seems to me rather silly.".
David Dimbleby, chair: "We wasn't actually dismissed. I think he was kicked off, but he went to an Industrial Tribunal. Clive Andersen"
Clive Anderson, broadcaster: "It's all good work for lawyers. I'm afraid when you bring in anti-discrimination legislation it's to deal with real issues. It's to do with not being given a job because they're a women or being sacked because they're a men. It's not to do with whether you're insisting on conventional dress, a tie for a man or wearing a skirt for a woman. I mean these are things possibly to be argued out in the workplace and they might have a work council on it, but to be occupying any sort of judicial enquiry as to whether a man having to wear a tie is ridiculous and everybody involved should be ashamed of themselves." (applause)
Alan Duncan MP: "As someone who occasionally wears a kilt who am I to complain?"
David Dimbleby, chair: "Why have you put a tie on now and you didn't last time?"
Alan Duncan MP: "One can't always be cool, but I though as we were going to talk about Iraq one ought to look vaguely serious, but last time I came..".
David Dimbleby, chair: "You mean the National Health Service and education doesn't really matter... Charles Clarke - very briefly!"
Charles Clarke MP: "I agree with Clive. I think it's all ridiculous. I hate these stereotypes of dress where the girls can or cannot wear trousers at school, where the men all have to wear or not wear ties. I think it's one of the disadvantages of public life where you have to dress in a rather conservative way normally and I wish we didn't"
I would add that is the only time anything like men's issues gets on the BBC especially TV, in other words only when they can rubbish it. Having recently had the 20 plus programmes on domestic violence and not a single male victim in sight, Germaine Greer can then ridicule the idea of compulsory ties. Others also take PC view that it's just conventional dress, yet when Clive cites women being ordered to wear a dress I think I'm right is saying that won have won cases to stop exactly that. I would also point out that laughing off "We have to wear ties" as a non-issue is the thin end of the wedge. When feminists don't mind men ordered to wear ties,but insist on freedom themselves, you will probably also note that in wars to protect our countries, feminists are not wanting equality in who is ordered into the front line, still all men.
Raymond Cuttill
http://www.cyberManbooks.com, http://www.menshour.com, http://www.mensmovement.org
Men's Books, Men's Radio, Men's Resources and Men's Studies
Member of UKMM and member of ManKind and hopeful author of a proposed book on men and feminism.
Bracknell Home for stray cats, old computers and political incorrectness.
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