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I think it takes a minute to realize just how important this decision is... and how far reaching and IMMEDIATE this ruling will impact cases that we've all been following.
Kobe comes to mind immediately, the defense had been losing ground trying to keep their "victim" off the stand before, and now there's ZERO chance they'll be able to keep her from having to testify.
This is the best news yet in a year that's been looking pretty good so far.
Dave K - A Radical Moderate
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Kobe's case is what makes the timing so perfect. The case is very much in the public consciousness, so that the public will be so much more aware of the Supreme Court ruling than it would be ordinarily.
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This is OUTSTANDING.
It's about freaking time. And the best part is that it was 9-0.
We'll have to see how it's APPLIED now.
Steven
Guerilla Gender Warfare is just Hate Speech in polite text
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It was unclear Wednesday whether the Supreme Court's ruling would be retroactive. Prosecutors certainly hope not. But they are concerned.
As they should be. For the Supreme Court ruled that relying on hearsay evidence and not producing a witness constitutes a violation of the accused's fundamental Constitutional rights under the Sixth Amendment. Violation of Constitutional rights always is grounds for appeal. It's really impossible to underestimate the impact of this decision.
And it even gets better. Justice Scalia specifically singled out admission of hearsay evidence by judge on the grounds that it was "obviously" reliable as akin to dispensing with jury trials on the grounds that the accused was "obviously" guilty. This means every single conviction based on such hearsay evidence can be challenged.
The floodgates have been let loose, and the deluge is about to begin...
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by Anonymous User on 01:55 PM March 19th, 2004 EST (#6)
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So...,
Who here would just LOVE to be at N.O.W. headquarters when they hear about THIS!?! (^_^)
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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NOW will most likely issue a statement to the effect:
"This ruling will seriously harm women. This just proves that women are second-class citizens, under the thumb of the patriarchy, blah blah blah blah......... "
Same shit they always say.
"Existence exists. A is A." -Ayn Rand
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by Anonymous User on 03:36 PM March 19th, 2004 EST (#8)
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Agreed.
And when they do say what they always say, We'll say what WE always say. And that is: BLAHH HA HA HA HA HA!!!! to them.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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Yes, 9 – 0
That means even NOW’s pal, Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg, couldn’t find a way to dissent.
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And a mandatory set of couseling to let them know the effects of their behavior. AND a Natioal Database of False Accusers.
Then we can have a deterrent that is worthy of the word instead of "considering filing charges of filing a false police report" = read: MAYBE a slap on the wrist, but only if it's convenient.
Steven
Guerilla Gender Warfare is just Hate Speech in polite text
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I'm going to have to disagree on that...this is all about getting attention andthe things you are advocating might seem appealing in terms of payback but really they would be like Braer Bear throwing Braer Rabbit in the briar patch. Ostricism, obscurity, and mockery are the punishments that hurt the Munchausen liar the most.
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Maus,
I, respectfully, disagree. For some the shame of doing this is terrible, but for others it's no big deal. Society doesn't have prisons for "revenge", (not idealy anyways), but rather as a deterrent for crimes. To deter a crime there must be a punishment that will make the criminal think twice before doing their evil.
It is not "revenge" to want to have a suitable deterrent to a serious crime. It is not "revenge" to keep someone who is dangerous off the street. It is a suitable deterrent to stop crime.
I hope you reply, and I await your thoughts.
Steven
Guerilla Gender Warfare is just Hate Speech in polite text
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MAUS,
I also wanted to add to what I had said.
You said:
Ostricism, obscurity, and mockery are the punishments that hurt the Munchausen liar the most.
In this day and age being able to disappear into the crowd, relocate, and short memories allow the false accuser to get on with their life in short order.
We DO need to be able to have women make an accusation and be believed based on her word. Now, before anyone tears me up on this, let me add some stuff to that. Coming forward from abuse is humiliating and hard. Most people, and I speak from experience, are ashamed that they allowed someone to demean them and hurt them so much for so long. We need to believe the battered.
That being said, for the false accusers, of which there are far farto many there is no deterrent. A woman who wants a divorce and wants the kids, the house, a large alimony, to distance and alienate her former husband from his children gets TONS of free help and faces no real punishment if she uses false accusations of DV. In fact she is rewarded for this behavior. I won't go into a long winded discussion of how she is rewarded, we all know.
We need a deterrent to the false claims of DV. Long prison sentences, allowing only supervised visits to the children (so she cannot spread her hatred and lies), and counseling are good steps.
What do you think MUAS?
Steven
Guerilla Gender Warfare is just Hate Speech in polite text
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Steven, you actually have raised several points of debate that could readily be the subject of a book, each and every one, but let me give you my thoughts on severity of punishment being a deterrent.
I remember sitting on a friend's sofa watching the news during the Iranian revolution which ousted the Shah (my friend happened to be one of the refugees who left Iran when the Shah was ousted). In related news it seemed that a lot of neighbouring Islamic countries had a little epidemic of fundamentalist Draconic punishments. We were watching a man who was a found in at a brothel in Istanbul being flogged with a cat-o-nine-tails on a high scaffold in full view of a large crowd. He did not flinch. At the end of the beating he danced to the edge of the scaffold,raised his arms and shouted something that caused the crowd to chear wildly and my friend to fall off the sofa laughing. When he regained his composure he explained that the man had yelled "THAT WAS GREAT!!...NOW WHAT I NEED IS A GOOD F*CK!!!"
The notion that harsh punishments deterr is absurd. Take the war on drugs for instance...need I say more.
You cannot frighten others into seeing things your way...the belief that you can is exactly why there is a chronic state of warfare in the middle east.
My belief is sort of like the writer of the movie "the Witness". At the point in the movie where the old man signals the boy to ring the bell that assembled the Amish community, there was a look of of conqouring confidence on his face, and rightly so. A lawfull community is not the result of the hero with a gun...it is the result of the collective disapproval of a co-hesive community.
Criminals do not fear being caught in the act of committing a crime...they fear being found out. The greatest measure of deterrence is to increase the likelyhood of being found out.
We must do a better job of knitting the fabric of our communities in order to acheive a more lawfull and healthy enviornment.
Did you know that the prison complex at Moundsville in Texax covers more area and contains more citizens than the State of Maryland? The hardline approach is obviously not working.
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I agree that the war against drugs is not working for very different reasons than the deterrent effect of some laws.
Thw war on drugs is against the DEMAND side of a supply and demand economic function. Were there not so much demand, so much money, and so little chance of getting caught it would not be so active. And yea, you reach a diminishing eventually in raising prison sentences. And then you have what we have here with 500,000 people being in jail for NON-violent crimes. Frankly I think we should legalize weed and get it over with (not so sure about hard drugs).
But at this time there are almost NO punishments for false allegations in this country. Not for false allegations of rape, DV, child molestation, or any other "male-problem" crime. And this "collective guilt" in the movie the "Witness" (good flick by the way) ONLY works where the person who is shamed MUST live in close proximity to others who adhere to a moral code and therefore cause social unhappiness to the perpetrator. Instead in our society we find the false accuser on Oprah or Ricky describing how "bad" they feel about how this "happened" and getting SYMPATHY ... meanwhile the REAL victim isn't invited to the show and is trying to reconstruct a life from ashes.
Your argument that DRACONIAN punishments are ineffective is correct, but right now there are NO punishments. Making false accusers pay the same price as those they falsely accused is a GREAT deterrent. The false accuser usually knows the hell they are sending their prey into, and the idea they could go through that same hell, which they have imagined their victim going through, now happening to the liar who started it .... that's gonna give some people pause to put false allegations out there.
You're right, draconian punishments reach a point of diminishing return.... but, Maus, right now there is NO punishments .... in fact, the false accuser is often rewarded for the lies.
Steve
Guerilla Gender Warfare is just Hate Speech in polite text
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"And this "collective guilt" in the movie the "Witness" (good flick by the way) ONLY works where the person who is shamed MUST live in close proximity to others who adhere to a moral code and therefore cause social unhappiness to the perpetrator. Instead in our society we find the false accuser on Oprah or Ricky describing how "bad" they feel about how this "happened" and getting SYMPATHY ... meanwhile the REAL victim isn't invited to the show and is trying to reconstruct a life from ashes. "
Herein lies the core of the problem and the most important obstacle to overcome. Getting the community to see and appreciate the damage done by bearing false witness against your neighbour. And in a way it shows a certain lack of talent on the part of men in that in spite of the other things we do well we do not get others to appreciate the hurt of our wounds nearly as well as women do....we are taught to bear up to them without complaint, and when we do complain it is in support groups of the like minded and the like injured...sort of like preaching to the choir. WE SHOULD START LETTING OUT PRIMORDIAL SCREAMS LIKE KLINGONS!!!!!
In fact something I am now resolved to do, is when I am in a social situation that is being commandeered by some three-titted deisel dyke self appointed feminazi gauleiter I am going to start goose-stepping hard enough to rattle the floor boards while shouting "HEIL DWORKIN!!" As loud and as hard as my karate kiai training will do ( and I have intimidated attack trained rottweillers and dobbermanns with that).
I also have one of those purse size rape whistles sold by AVON...in certain circumstances I will blow IT so long they will think it's Kenny G blowing it..MAKE NOISE BROTHERS !!!!WE ARE NOT BEING HEARD BECAUSE WE ARE BEING WILLFULLY IGNORED...RESORT TO THINGS THAT CANNOT BE IGNORED AND THAT INVOLVE PEOPLE WHOM THE FEMINAZIS CANNOT AFFORD TO IGNORE!!!
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Feel better?
need a new keyboard or do ya got an industrial strength one?
Sorry bro ... I feel you passion, but I had to toss this light hearted comment in.
=)
Steven
Guerilla Gender Warfare is just Hate Speech in polite text
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Thnx Steve..but you know on several ocasions I HAVE made outbursts like that and I have never once suffered the consequences that many would have thought.
On one occassion in my workplace, a matter of weeks after the sexual harassment policy was invoked, someone who outranked me made a male bash remark at a staff meeting...generally these things went unchallanged...I said "you can kiss my hairy male ass until your lips blister you boorish biggoted feminazi shit maggot!!!"...Everyones mouth dropped open ...I walked to the door and turned and pointed my finger at the male basher and said..."and you are at liberty to complain about what I just said to any authority figure you wish, up to and including Jehovah"...nothing was ever again said about the matter and male bashing in my workplace ceased.
Women cannot hear what men will not say (I'm told that is the title of a contemporary book).
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Roll On Floor Laugh My Ass Off ...
Would have paid MONEY to have been there.
I understand you feel that you can finally vent. Just a word of caution ... women have a separate hard drive of "slights, insults, and others mean episodes" that is dual backed up and is selective in it's recording: The female = instant memory dump of all past wrongs .... friend of female = selective memory dump of all past wrongs not done against first female .... male-coworker = first female remembers every bad look from 1905 onward and holds grudge until 13 years after her death.
Just keep it in mind.
Steven
Guerilla Gender Warfare is just Hate Speech in polite text
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