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Where do women get the idea that men need to be "trained," as though we were a bunch of seals who needed to learn how to balance beach balls on our noses? I think feminism has taught many women to think of us as less than human.
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They get it from THEIR mothers of course. I think in the past men tended to humor women in order to "keep the peace". I know a number of Boomers who have all done this, and I have no reason to believe it hasn't been that way for centuries.
HOWEVER... in the last thirty years the rules have changed. Women have systematically broken every structure that used to hold families together. My wife came into our marriage with the same expectation of "now I'll change you into someone I can live with" and I actually went along with it for years.
Then, after a LOT of suffering and depression I came to the realization that I was getting NOTHING in return for "keeping the peace". I jettisoned that outdated bahavior and "The game was on". If I even catch a whiff that she's trying to manipulate me I let her know it and that it's not going to get her anywhere.
That's not to say that Jen isn't a great wife (she is) and I'm crazy about her... but she has 20 years of mothers programming to get rid of too. I think that some behaviors (like sexual manipulation) are genetic and she does them automatically, so when those sorts of behaviors come out, I try to be understanding but firm... I'm not going to play the games anymore.
And there's NOTHING that will set me off quicker than the "superior female". If I get that "men are so dumb" attitude from any woman, I take that as a personal challenge. Most women are VERY surprised when you call them on their behavior. I don't look down on anyone... except for people who are stupid enough to believe they're better than others.
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by Anonymous User on Friday April 25, @06:53PM EST (#6)
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"And there's NOTHING that will set me off quicker than the "superior female". If I get that "men are so dumb" attitude from any woman, I take that as a personal challenge. Most women are VERY surprised when you call them on their behavior. I don't look down on anyone... except for people who are stupid enough to believe they're better than others"
I had to smile at this. This is a pet hate of mine too. Most women I work with now actively avoid ever alluding to this grotesque stereotype due to me challenging them.
It's actually got to the point where many women will start to tell a story, get to the point where they introduce the "dumb guy" bit then suddenly realise that several pairs of eyes are on her to see if she'll actually dare use it. We don't allow the opposite in our public discussions of women, and the women in my organisation are finding that I don't allow the opposite either.
Well, I am the boss!! Many women that work for me have been surprised to find that I'll hold them to the same standards of behaviour that I hold the guys to.
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by Anonymous User on Friday April 25, @11:04PM EST (#8)
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"Many women that work for me have been surprised to find that I'll hold them to the same standards of behaviour that I hold the guys to."
This does come as a suprise for many women. When they find you aren't going to greet them with that fake smile and fall hand over foot to help them with any problems they are quite suprised.
This training idea is almost universally held. From hardcore feminazis to hard right conservative women. I remember as a child going to my mom's womens church group meetings with her and hearing them all laugh and tell stories about how they got there husbands trained like dogs. These were fundementalist christian women that believed in the whole "men are the head of the household stuff".
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by Anonymous User on Saturday April 26, @03:16AM EST (#9)
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((("Many women who work for me have been suprised to find that I'll hold them to the same standards of behaviour that I hold the guys to.")))
You have EXACTLY the right attitude for a men's activist! I applaud you vigorously!
No one is treated better or worse than anyone else. They are treated EQUALY!
Again, Bravo!
-Thundercloud.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday April 26, @04:13AM EST (#11)
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So where do I apply to get a job working for you. To be able to work in an enviroment without having to listen to at least one rant or disgusting joke on men's stupidity once a week. Sounds like heaven!
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Women naturally "test" men's boundaries to see how much they can get away with, and thus a man who doesn't enforce his boundaries will, indeed, be conditioned to accept more and more dominance from the woman until he is, truly, trained like a seal with gradual behavior modification, and the end of his freedom comes not with a shout, but with a whisper of "yes, dear."
Once again, this is simply women's nature to seek out dominant men who have the courage to be assertive, sice if a man won't stand up to a woman then it's a cinch that he won't stand up to another man either, and every day I'm finding this out more to be the truth.
That's just the way it works.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday April 27, @12:46PM EST (#26)
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I think Tulkas is on to something here.
Last week I was out at the local Mall and this woman comes barreling up and runs right into me.
I sincirely tried to avoid her, but 'crash', none the less.
So, even though she ran into ME (I was standing still) she starts b!%*#ing at me to "whatch where I'M going"! I told her flat out that I TRIED to avoid her. But then she literaly takes a stance like a BOXER and says; "Okay, C'mon you want a piece of ME?!?"
I told her; "Lady I tried to be gracious here, but you take ONE swing at me and I'll do EVERYTHING in my power to defend myself. So sure, go ahead, bring it on!" And I MEANT it too.
She looked at me for a second then turned away mumbleing something un-intelegibale.
I'm, like, left standing there thinking; "...'the hell??"
I mean, what the hell was THAT all about?
I was sirious, too. If she had started swinging at me I probably would have decked her. I'm no martial arts expert but I have had some training in Wing chung kung fu. And she would have been on her ample little fanny in no seconds flat.
But as Tulkas was saying, women will push you to see how far they can do so. I really believe this woman DIDN'T expect me to react that way.
She probably expected me to say; "Oh, I'm so sorry, No PLEASE, PLEASE don't hurt me!" like a good little femboy in her TV sit coms, soap opereas and chick-flick movies.
Well, didn't happen.
-Thundercloud.
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More than just something, TC. Today I was at the mall, and carrying an armful, including hot coffee, and my suit (I'm a tall man, folks. My suits have to be tailored, otherwise they don't fit.) on for a meeting.
So Up the stairs I go, and I hit a slick spot. So, rather than ruin a $600 suit with cheap coffee, I let it drop, and fall a few steps.
Reaction of women: (The nuturing, caring, compassionate gender) "Watch where you're going!" "Did he get any on my shoes?" "Clumsy!" "Excuse Me!" and other forms of just hurrying past.
Reaction of men: (The cold, emotionless, unfeeling, self-centered gender) "Man, you okay?" "Jesus, I didn't do that to you, did I dude?" "Hey, I tried to save as much of your joe as I could - you okay, dude?"
Yeah. Tell me about it.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Monday April 28, @11:44PM EST (#33)
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Gonzo.
Yeah, It's interesting how when a woman is in trouble, both women AND men will come to their aid.
But if a MAN is haveing trouble, other men will come to his aid, but more often than not women will either NOT stop to help, or some how "rub in" the situation by being calloused, mean, insulting or simply not careing.
I wonder if you had severely cut yourself and were bleeding profusely, if that one woman would have said; "Did he get any (blood) on my shoes?"
Some how I can ACTUALLY see that happening.
I've been in similar situations, like the one you describe. I have had decent women show or act out of consern, but usually it is just the opposite.
-Thundercloud.
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Words of wisdom Tulkas, words of wisdom! I KNOW that your observation is correct. Unfortunately it serves to demonstrate how most women are not ready for the equality that they "claim" is lacking. Furthermore, it demonstrates how under the mindset you described that a state of "equality" is inconsistent with the demands that women actually harbor.
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I think this is hilarious! Let hordes of women buy this tape and reveal and demonstrate for all their desire for unearned worship, and to be pampered without any reciprocity or giving on their part. Let them reveal the stage of evolution whereby they became stunted and ceased developing as spiritual beings. Let them reveal their place on the chart of human evolution..."simian pathetica".
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The problem here is the old "unspoken rule" factor whereby women inevitably end up using this type of guy as a doormat and going after the guy with a dominant personality even if he's not woman-wise, but a complete jerk who just doesn't care about anyone but himself (which is why he's not affected by the feminist subservience brainwashing) but is still more attractive to a woman's nature than a submissive male, which only attracts repressed bull-dykes and psychotic S&M types.
The moral of the story is for men to take responsibility as the dominant gender, stand up for their convictions, and save themselves and women from a lot of grief and misery by both groups trying to be something they're not.
Be friendly but firm, and always be willing to leave, never bluff about it; as a rule, the second you show weakness, is the second she owns (and dumps) you.
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I don't know about the idea that we should act like the dominant gender. We definitely need to stand up for ourselves and stop being milquetoasts, but we should not let the pendulum swing too far (as the feminists have). There can never really be peace until there is equality.
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I don't know about the idea that we should act like the dominant gender.
I agree - it's how men earn a reputation for being "bullies". That's why anti-male feminism has been allowed to run rampant for three or so decades now. The core of the problem, as I see it, is that we do, in fact, see men as less human because the male gender has a very bureaucratic image to it. Males are lumped in the same category with politicians and mean bosses. And women are seen as more human because they are "One of Us".
I'm not saying men should let ourselves be doormats or victims - but we do have to allow women to show at least an equal propensity for dominant and aggressive behavior to simply confirm that they are not natural underdogs in the gender equation. It would also confirm whether or not women are truly capable of shepherding the world to Nirvana once released from male suppression.
Feminism's ticket to ride (not to mention that of female chauvanism in general) is the infinite range of possibilities for what women might do if it weren't for men having the "upper hand". We have to release that upper hand and let them put their money where their mouths are if we are to finally burst their bubble.
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I agree - it's how men earn a reputation for being "bullies"
Dominance is not abuse-- it's assertion of responsibility with which men are naturally endowed in comparison to women, who allow themselves more latitude in their dealings with others-- both in the way they treat others, and the way others treat them.
Likewise, women are naturally submissive to men, and as a rule will only respect men who assert their dominance by setting clear boundaries.
This isn't "bullying," it's just reality, and evidence bears me out as a rule. This is why "nice guys" are always taken advantage of by women, since it's their nature regardless of how shitty this is when you're making an effort to resist the same temptation; it's the road to hell paved with liberal intentions.
If you have any examples to the contrary, I'd love to hear them-- but as a rule they don't exist.
Likewise I'm not in any way suggesting the use of any kind of aggression to beat down anyone, but rather simply breaking it off if she refuses to respect boundaries, since women look for these to feel comfortable with a man who puts her in her place of the submissive role; it just feels natural to them, while those who reject this nature on "principle" are the angry radical feminists-- who treat "nice guy" even worse out of frustration, and anger at hatred and rejection of themselves-- for which submissive men make an ideal scapegoat.
For example, a "dominant" alpha male in a pack of canines is often the friendliest and most active and social of the group, but he is also the most assertive and won't back down in a confrontation either, since it's his job to ensure survival of the group by enforcing the boundaries of behavior within it and quelling disputes between lesser members.
Likewise, dogs are submissive to people, but by saying that I'm not recommending "bullying" them either, but neither does this mean one should treat them as equals; rather, a person who abuses animals is doing so out of a reflection of their own insecurity and self-hatred.
Dominance and bullying are direct opposites, like thugs and police officers; bullies don't dominate for a purpose, they just harass and violate-- complete opposites.
Some canines are bullies too, but they are likewise subdued by the dominant ones.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday April 27, @01:56AM EST (#17)
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"Likewise, dogs are submissive to people, but by saying that I'm not recommending "bullying" them either, but neither does this mean one should treat them as equals; rather, a person who abuses animals is doing so out of a reflection of their own insecurity and self-hatred."
So men should treat women like they are dogs?
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by Anonymous User on Sunday April 27, @07:08AM EST (#20)
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"So men should treat women like they are dogs?"
Women treat men far worse than that. Why a man would want anything to do with most women is beyond me.
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So men should treat women like they are dogs?
Well, since that is obvious flame-bait, I'll answer with a simple "yes."
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Sunday April 27, @08:10AM EST (#22)
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((("So men should treat women like they are dogs?")))
Just because someone is against one extreame doesn't mean they automaticaly support the other.
-Thundercloud.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday April 27, @12:34PM EST (#25)
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I guess I don't belong here then. I will continue to work with abused, mentally ill, and suffering men at my "communist" funded men's residence. I will continue to love my wife as an independent equal partner and to cherish her thoughts as well as I would my own. I will continue to tell other men I meet in my life my thoughts and opinions on men's rights. I will continue to share my story to the men I meet of what happened to me and how I was abused by women in my life.
If men's activism is about giving it back as good as we got, subjagating both men and women back into traditional roles and uncovering the red menace then I want no part of it.
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We do not need to behave like feminist hatemongers to defeat them. I am not sure whether your response was serious. If it was, then you are just as sick as the feminists.
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Stick around, there are many opinions here as to how men can obtain equal rights and respect.
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I guess I don't belong here then. I will continue to work with abused, mentally ill, and suffering men at my "communist" funded men's residence.
Your call on the morality or lack thereof. I also teach GED courses to teens with learning disabilities such as Dyslexia or Asperger's Disorder; I just refuse to accept a government nickel for it.
I will continue to love my wife as an independent equal partner and to cherish her thoughts as well as I would my own.
If she's one of those rare women who return it, more power to ya. If she's not, you're a sucker.
I will continue to tell other men I meet in my life my thoughts and opinions on men's rights. I will continue to share my story to the men I meet of what happened to me and how I was abused by women in my life.
Think about it - that's what it's about - she does you, and then claims victimhood.
If men's activism is about giving it back as good as we got, subjagating both men and women back into traditional roles and uncovering the red menace then I want no part of it.
So is your problem "traditional roles?" Hmm. Or just that those relationships that stick to "Traditional Roles" seem to be the longest lasting, produce well adjusted children, or are otherwise successful?
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Really? Why?
Ever trained a dog? You don't use beatings. You don't use starvation, deprivation, or anything cruel. Why? Because nothing responds to cruelty, except sick and twisted human beings, and that's not a gender issue. Personally, if I thought any woman I might associate with would be moved by cruelty, I'd disassociate from her.
Matter of fact, already have, on a couple occasions. But that's another rant.
Treat like dogs? Boy, let me tell you, I'd like to be treated like a dog. I'd be petted, I'd be fed, I'd be taken for activity, I'd have my own house, a warm place to sleep - and in return what? I'd have to be agreeable, an advocate for the hand that fed me, clean, and loyal. Doesn't sound like a bad deal.
You are reactionary, sir. You don't think things through. We have a troll spewing flame bait, so what do they get? The answer they least expect and least want to hear. Because they can't argue against it.
You treat a woman just like a dog. You tell her no. If she can't repect your space, you figuratively "put her outdoors." If she can't stop barking, you figuratively put her on her leash, with her muzzle.
And you can argue with me all you want. I have women lined up to be treated like a dog, mate. The proof is in the pudding. For all their yap about a "sensitive" man, they want a strong man who will set limits, and is willing to drop them if they step out of line. They all want to see if they can be the one who breaks you, and they secretly hope they aren't.
Try it sometime.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday April 29, @12:01AM EST (#34)
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I think Gonzo's right.
I don't personaly go in for the "leash and muzzle" thing, Although I HAVE dated girls who were into that sort of deal. But I didn't want to treat them like that. Usually they dumped me for a guy who DID like his girls "imobilized".
No, what I mean, is, That back when I used to date, The more "Machivellian"(SP?) I behaved the more women were attracted to me. Go figure.
But that just isn't who I was, or am. And if THAT was what I had to do to get a date, treat a woman in a calloused manner. I'd sooner not date at all then treat another human being with less than respect. (Ergo, as I've stated many times here, I DON'T date at all, any more.)
We CONSTANTLY hear "nice guys" complain that women only love "Jerks".
These guys aren't just SAYING that, it really DOES seem to be the case!
Why? 'don't know. One would have to ask a much more qualified person than I, for that ansewer.
I have enough aggravation...,
-Thundercloud.
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Why? 'don't know.
Because compromise isn't sexy.
Larry
Proud member of the Sperm Cartel
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday April 29, @08:26PM EST (#38)
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Larry.
Yes, That is probably, indeed, why.
-Thundercloud.
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I take your points, Incredibletulkas, and I see the distinctions you're making. After giving it thought, I'll admit that most of the people I consider dominant in the sense you describe are actually the most affable and respectable of the lot (and trustworthy), whereas submissive people have often shown hidden propensities for various forms of what I consider true bullying. In my heart, I think I understand the virtues of male dominance. But the problem is that the world I'm living in doesn't seem to see that (at least not anymore), and I am taking heat for that, as a male.
My concern is simply that when men exert dominance (and when the status quo more or less compels it by law, as it once did), it leaves women with what you would call "the benefit of the doubt". Under this system, women kind of have it both ways. One, they are getting what they actually want (to be submissive), but yet because men appear to be forcing it on them, they don't have to take the blame for having that passive role (and passivity is rather shameful, which is why passive people have historically been denigrated for it), and people are left to wonder if women might actually be equal or superior and simply unable to demonstrate this under male duress. So, in a way, it's kind of like female submissiveness is actually a veiled trap that gives men all the freedom to show the world exactly what we are, which is rather a mixed blessing, because just as it gives us freedom to do great things, it also gives us the freedom to fall on our faces and look stupid when we screw up. Women then look rather "perfect", because their restricted role gives them the infinite possibilities of potential greatness but without having to actually take the blame for not proving them, since men appear to be making all the rules. I just think it's kind of a crock.
But, you know what? Maybe, in our hearts, it's what we all want. Maybe men want to see women as perfect, just in our eyes, because it carries a tremendous emotional benefit and encouragement that I myself cannot deny. And women also enjoy seeing their own gender as perfect, as it motivates them toward their own unique virtues. And if that's the case, then I guess everybody's happy with that system and I can't argue with it.
But can we at least show men some respect for making it possible, then?
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I don't know about the idea that we should act like the dominant gender. We definitely need to stand up for ourselves and stop being milquetoasts, but we should not let the pendulum swing too far (as the feminists have). There can never really be peace until there is equality.
Try REALITY; if you're waiting for equality where it doesn't exist, you're in for nothing but a life of frustration. If you or anyone else has ever had a so-called "equal" relationship, I'd love to hear it, but so far these are the stuff of feminist literature-- with "equality" meaning that both parties agree she's right.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday April 26, @03:25AM EST (#10)
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"(a submissive male)which only attracts repressed bull-dykes and psychotic S&M types"
Which are exactly the types of women who like the Dixie Twits' "Goodbye Earl" video, Movies like "All tied up" "Thelma and Louise", "Enough" and "Chasing Papi".
There are a HELL of alot of women like that, out there...,
-Thundercloud.
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Which are exactly the types of women who like the Dixie Twits' "Goodbye Earl" video, Movies like "All tied up" "Thelma and Louise", "Enough" and "Chasing Papi".
I think the fact that Susan Sarandon and the Ditzy Chicks are in the above category, pretty much speaks for itself-- in addition to the pussy-whipped Tim Robins speaking for the "submissive male" type.
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Which are exactly the types of women who like the Dixie Twits' "Goodbye Earl" video, Movies like "All tied up" "Thelma and Louise", "Enough" and "Chasing Papi".
"Enough;" was that some stupid Jennifer Lopez movie? I saw a preview of it and it looked really stupid; I'd like to know what a little puerto-rican monkey-woman would be thinking taking on a badass guy with her bare hands when she has an ass that could just fart a level 1 sonic boom seismic disruption, and take out the side of a building just by turning around.
I get so sick of these perpetual demonizations of men with resultant lionization of women in self-righteous anger; it's a clear violation of men's rights-- and often in very serious ways.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday April 27, @03:04AM EST (#18)
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Yeah, "ENOUGH" is that "Woman-gets-her-rocks-off-beatin'-up-a-man" movie starring Jennifer Lopez.
I used to like "J.Lo" okay, untill she made this anti-male chick-flick. But then aren't ALL chick-flicks anti-male?
(..."Monkey-woman"...????)
-Thundercloud.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday April 27, @04:52AM EST (#19)
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Yeah at one point most chick flicks were just boring not hateful.
You used to like J-Lo???????? Man and at one point I really liked you Thundercloud ;)
-Andrew74
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by Anonymous User on Sunday April 27, @08:12AM EST (#23)
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Andrew,
Well...
I thought she was kind of cute.
-Thundercloud.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday April 29, @02:10AM EST (#35)
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"Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!"
"Plan 9 from outerspace."
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday April 29, @02:37AM EST (#36)
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((("Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!"
"Plan 9 from outerspace"")))
...What the hell...?
YOU'RE from outer space...!
-Thundercloud.
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