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by Davidadelong on 11:50 PM January 18th, 2006 EST (#1)
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In light of the fact that there is a strong rumor that the queens secret service snuffed princess Di due to the fact that she was going to marry a Saudi, I don't blame the Mens' group for trying to distance themselves from the actions that they were accused of. What better excuse to silence an outspoken group than to blame them for an unspeakable act, the kidnapping of a Child? How would Mensactivism.org react if they were accused of something just as heinious? All of the People that submit comments on a regular basis being actively investigated? With what the gov. is doing with the national security act, do we know that they aren't doing it right now? Big brother/ sister is alive and well! Anyone that is rocking the boat, and we are rocking the boat could be suspect. "It is a good day to die!"
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by dad4justice on 03:54 AM January 19th, 2006 EST (#2)
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Anyone today can call the local cop station and say I heard some angry fathers say - yeah...yeah... crap ...lies ....it's terrible ....yeah ....I know the impact of lies . It's a bit like false allegations in the de family court as a good/loving/honest Dad you get f..ked over bigtime - family members die heartbroken and you have no chance at judicial redress.Whats the difference between the wild allegations of the alleged F4J criminals - come on - no arrests - PM 's son - pull the other one Mr Bliar - you can't lie straight in bed you sneeky wee nasty liar. You know that F4J are good fathers but you don't care as you are part of not so secret hidden agenda that want to demonize all men and mass produce parental alienation syndrome affected sad/miserable children . Shame on you Mr Bliar and the scum media !!!! You don't fool me.
dad4justice
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by JM on 12:59 PM January 19th, 2006 EST (#5)
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This is a set-up and that’s one hundred percent certain. It’s not even a good one. It’s a simplistic (even pathetic) attack on men but it will work because the masses do not think any more. They have been socially-engineered to react not think.
Since some men have started talking back to the feminist-controlled government, then the feminists in government plus a few of the controlled male politicians have obviously got together to see how to “solve” the “problem” of men standing up for their rights. The easiest way is to discredit them by calling them criminals and/or terrorists and then feeding it to the trash-media. All they had to do was put a paid snitch or undercover cop in the organization (or close to it) with instructions to “get anything you can on these guys” or to talk about kidnapping so it is overheard or fed to a “reporter” for the trash media (some of whom follow this group around hoping for a story just like this one) They obviously did this.
It should have been anticipated and Matt O'connor should have had at least one counter-plan at the ready. (Is it possible that he has?)
For O’Connor to give up so easily is ridiculous and I wonder if it is true. He and others should have used this opportunity to expose the feminists in government for what they really are - bigots.
F4J could have turned this around into a victory.
He should have appeared on every TV and radio show possible.
Remember the fact of the case (before the media-distortion) is that one or two people MAY HAVE mentioned (no more than about half a minute of speech) doing this in a joking way. It is not a crime to talk about committing a crime (especially if it’s a joke). Hundreds of thousands of people do this regularly. Millions have done it in their lives.
The most common “plan” is doing the “bank job” and then retiring. Many people spend many hours regularly discussing this “plan.” They’ve even made a few movies about the “bank job” fantasy just for these people. That’s how common it is.
REMEMBER: NO PLAN WAS EVER MADE TO KIDNAP ANYBODY.
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by Thundercloud on 02:20 PM January 19th, 2006 EST (#7)
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JM- I agree.
This sounds like feminist/government propaganda to try and silence these men.
Apparently it is working. It always does...
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Roy on 06:51 PM January 19th, 2006 EST (#10)
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I found the sorriest part of this story to be the quotes of F4J "leader" Matt O'Connor who has resorted to classic feminist "shame-and-blame" rhetoric to humiliate fathers.
Quote - "My view is that fathers are not ready for the changes we want to see in this country. They are part of the problem, not the solution, and they are perverting the cause."
This guy makes Wendy McElroy look like a better bet for leading a father's rights movement.
Sad.
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by mcc99 on 01:05 PM January 19th, 2006 EST (#6)
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I think what you're seeing here is the culmination of a lot of things. Remember that F4J split into two groups, the other calling itself "The Real F4J"? Basically in any small group of people that is politically unpopular and filled with disaffected people, there are huge organizational and interpersonal issues inevitably that come up and play out, leading to more frustration, lost opportunities, and in-fighting that just feeds on itself. I doubt individual F4J members are giving up on the cause of fathers' rights, but it seems that the lifespan of F4J as an organization as such was in danger of ending before this incident.
As to the story mentioned in another comment, well, all I can say is, "Loose lips sink ships." People have to be careful what they say in public these days, and when it comes to talking about pols and their families, they have always had to be real careful. Even off-hand ethanol-fuelled idle B.S. banter in a bar can land you into trouble and frequently has in the history of both the UK and the USA. Even if you are only talking in jest, be aware of what you're saying and who may be hearing it... this is good advice from 10,000 years ago, 1,000 years ago, and remains good to this day.
I am not saying I agree with this kind of institutionalized selective investigating/prosecuting/etc., nor do I like to see this kind of paranoid mind-set of pols and law enforcement types in action. I am just saying it's par for the course and needs to be considered before one starts making even idle comments of the sort that were reportedly made in this case, especially if you already have a history with the people in question (ie, Tony Blair and the London police force).
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by Raymond Cuttill on 06:37 PM January 19th, 2006 EST (#8)
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I've just posted this on the Men's Hour
F4J is now suspended following the ‘plot’ to kidnap 5 year old Leo Blair.
The plot appears to be little more than pub talk following a F4j march in December. Some mentioned are ex-members of F4J. So far as I can tell only 1 remark was made (and that remark is disputed) and no-one agreed with it or followed it up. It does appear however that some members of F4J have been warned they will be shot if they participate in a protest near Downing Street.
Matt O’Connor, leader of F4J, appears again to have given up the fight because of this negative publicity. It currently looks like Matt has had enough and gone as far as he can and sees no way forward. Only this week an author who published a book saying that the Family Courts where biased was interviewed on the BBC’s Woman’s Hour (aka Feminism Forever) and was confronted with a solicitor making bland sweeping claims that everything was alright now following some recent changes in the courts. It seems likely that the task of getting Fathers Rights is going to take longer than the 3 years of Matt’s original plan. Whatever happens now everyone owes Matt a great debt, but the battle isn’t over. A new hope is needed.
F4J Press Release here
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by MAUS on 06:42 PM January 19th, 2006 EST (#9)
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I have had discussions with the leadership of F4J on a couple of Canadian forums and by personal e-mail. I have the greatest love and admiration for the rank and file members and marchers of M4J. Pictures of their latest march brought tears to my eyes.
My conflict with their leadership has been on their insistance with being "gentlemen"....even when it has become painfully obvious that if you confine yourself to actions that can easily be ignored.....the enemy will ignore you. In fact what has gotten M4J any noteriety at all has been the willingness of their elite activists to commit acts of outrageous acting up and distressing shinanigans.
Not only should they kidnap Tony Blair's kids....while they are in M4J's captivity the kids should be worked on by the best psychology/brainwash types available in order to completely alienate them to Tony.
On top of that...in the name of his childrens'"best interests" F4J should make him pay extortion payments to a cumpulsive eater who is trying her darndest to make herself more obese that Jabba-the-Hutt.....I could go on...but there really is no need.
F4J, just a few weeks ago, tied up traffic in London for nearly four hours on a Saturday and bemoaned the fact that the BBC managed to keep that a secret....did it ever occur to their polite and reasonable leadership that occupying the administration buildings and/or broadcast studios of BBC just might have changed that outcome?
I have not had a lot to say lately.
A lot of folks don't like what I have to say or the way that I say them.
Please let me assure you...my own experience has clearly shown...that a little honest to God, hostility and animosity, expressed in a manner that cannot be ignored ....goes a long way.
When the futility of the politely and reasonably expressed approach becomes painfully obvious to you......I'll be waiting.
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by Raymond Cuttill on 08:38 PM January 19th, 2006 EST (#11)
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Violence is not the answer. Not only it is illegal and immoral but it is ineffective and counter-productive. I don’t think you could find a bunch of fathers capable of doing a kidnap like that. And of course it’s manna from heaven for the feminists. They'd have the proof that these fathers can’t be trusted. And as we’ve seen from this incident, a few loose words in a pub and the papers have a story. Facts not needed, just implications. Sufficient to produce threats of shooting and nationwide negative publicity.
If sufficient men ever became violent, unlikely, but if it happened then it would be like a civil war but worldwide. Millions could die and no clear winner might emerge. Nut if you want a war just say that you don’t mind dying for the cause.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m for animosity. I believe in civil disobedience as used by Gandhi and Martin Luther King. That way shames them. The feminists can’t see themselves as victims if they are using violence against someone non-violent. They have to be confronted, but don’t give them an excuse to claim self-defence.
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by MAUS on 04:50 PM January 21st, 2006 EST (#17)
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The civil disobediance activities of Mahatma Ghandi caused disruptions that could not be ignored. He also blatently defied and brroke laws so that he could get the opportunity to use his training as a lawyer to have tham struck down in court....in order to have courts strike down a law....YOU MUST FIRST DISOBEY IT IN ORDER TO INITIATE THAT PROCESS....Ghandi was imprisoned on several occassions. (He also bitch slapped his wife when she refused to take her turn cleaning the latrines at the ashram because she was Brahmin caste)
If Martin Luther King's approach was as effective as some would have you believe, the Black Panthers would have never emerged.
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by Davidadelong on 10:37 PM January 19th, 2006 EST (#12)
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The only way action of the type that you hint at would be succesful is if it were directed at the system, and Women were there as well. If it were only Men involved we would be doomed from the outset. By Men acting out as just Men we only add fuel to the propaganda machine, and Men that are doubtful will side with the Women. If Men were to do the things that you hint at alone, they would be checking this site from within a cell, if they could access a PC from being locked down 23 out of 24 hours a day that is. Acting out violently gives the "justice department" (oxymoron if there ever was one) all the excuse they need to lower the hammer. I do not see myself as a martyr, do you?
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by Roy on 11:10 PM January 19th, 2006 EST (#13)
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History is full of examples of revolutionary movements that tear themselves apart through factionalism, leadership-ego contests, and tactical disagreements.
F4J has at least started a social men's movement base that can continue on without the "leadership" of Matt O'Connor.
It's fitting if not a little ironic that in his public statements, O'Connor said he was tired of all the disruptions in his private life and has a brand new six-week old infant son he wants to spend more time with....
Would that the tens of thousands of alienated dads who looked to F4J for a way forward could enjoy the same privilege of time with their kids.
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by JulianDroms on 12:09 PM January 20th, 2006 EST (#14)
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Honestly, I've come to have a lot of resentment towards Matt O'Conner after all these years. Things started off pretty well, but he seems far too interested in his own well being than that of fathers in general.
We keep reading about it in the news.
So what if he has a newborn kid? So what if he is now getting along with his ex-wife? So what if it's been difficult for him to motivate men to push forward the cause in the way he thinks is proper? Most of these men are so sick of not being listened to anymore, who but the most idealistic and naive moron could blame them?
Even if all the allegations are true, so what if a bunch of guys in a bar talked briefly about temporarily kidnapping Tony Blair's kid?
Tony Blair can cry like a stuck pig all he wants, try to play the victim in the press, just like women do, in order to get the sympathy vote, whatever. Substantively, they're all just trying to make a big fuss out of nothing. Great, now even Prime Minsiters can be elevated to political office through feigned victimhood.
What a crock of shit.
I'm not in a non-custodial situation myself, but I know many fathers who are, and I completely sympathize with them for being pissed.
Matt O'Connor of late, seems to be more interested in his own ego & fame, bragging into the press, and of late, even putting his story into a fucking Hollywood movie.
What a bunch of bull.
Matt O'Conner sounds to me like a backstabbing fuck. I hope he reads this, because if he's insulted, and he thinks it means something politically for me to say it, then it just goes to show just to what extend his puffed-out ego has overtaken his sense of fellowship to the cause of fathers.
What an asswipe and a sellout.
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by Roy on 09:58 PM January 20th, 2006 EST (#15)
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It is interesting that after orchestrating and exploiting MRA's that Matt O'Connor says two contradictory things as he folds up his version of F4J ....
(1) I'm tired of the controversy and persecution; I have new baby son to coddle at home; my partner cupcake would like some peace; the dads are all just too immature and angry to control anymore...
(2) HELLO HOLLYWOOD!!!! I'd love to spend the next year on salary as a "creative consultant" so that you can make my movie!
( Another tragic lesson for men's rights advocates. 3,000 years ago it was something like... "You too Brutus?" )
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by JulianDroms on 09:18 AM January 21st, 2006 EST (#16)
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No shit. If Matt O'Conner wanted to quit to go stay home with his mommy, the honorable thing would have been for him to resign, not just take the whole organization down.
The Real F4J guys should just rename their oganization something like "We Will Carry On", and do so.
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by Roy on 12:39 PM January 22nd, 2006 EST (#18)
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http://www.channel4.com/news/special-reports/speci al-reports-storypage.jsp?id=1551
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