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by Anonymous User on 12:23 PM August 31st, 2005 EST (#1)
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This "apology" was actually a sneering sarcastic comment which is MORE offensive than the programme. I quote:
"The corporation said the show "plays on the long-standing stereotype of wives nagging husbands about their failings"
They are apologising to women!!!!
Insreasingly the feminazis amuse me rather than anger me.
Hotspur
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by Anonymous User on 12:41 PM August 31st, 2005 EST (#2)
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Yeah, and Jane Fonda apologised for being a communist sympathiser and a treasoner.
I take both apologies with about as much seriousness as I do Bozo the clown.
(actually aren't he and Fonda the same person?)
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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Not even two weeks ago a female member of this site said she uses dog training techniques on her husband who is also a member. After I told that person she would be very sorry if she did that to me, everybody started yelling, I was a troll, I was insulting a valuable member of the men's rights movement and more of that crap. The husband and some others even tried to convince me that being trained like a dog is good for a relationship.
Now tell me, you "men's rights activists", why are you making such a fuss about some humorous TV programme?
Bert
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From now on, men's rights first.
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by Boy Genteel on 06:58 PM August 31st, 2005 EST (#4)
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"Now tell me, you "men's rights activists", why are you making such a fuss about some humorous TV programme?"
I'm trying to remain patient with you.
Jen said, repeatedly, that she and her husband use such techniques ON EACH OTHER. Neither spouse in their marriage has the upper hand. Far different from a program denigrating men when we all know the reverse would NOT be tolerated.
Do you see the difference now?
Men are from EARTH. Women are from EARTH. Deal with it.
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If she likes the techniques being used on her, hey, that's fine with me. But a "men's rights activist" who allows a woman to treat him like that is a joke. Feminists who read this site are wetting their panties having the best laugh ever.
Bert
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From now on, men's rights first.
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by jenk on 08:04 AM September 1st, 2005 EST (#8)
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You never even bothered to take off the pissed off glasses long enough to hear what i had to say. You stuck your fingers in your ears and yelled LALALALA.
I learned communication skills by training dogs, and was able to generalize what I learned to dealing with people. My husband was also able to learn these communication skills and it has improved our marriage. If you wish to continue to be obtuse and think I 'train' my husband then that is not my problem.
The Biscuit Queen
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Hey miss dog trainer, keep in mind that not all people buy that feminist crap about "communication skills". And you should definitely keep in mind that I am not your pussy whipped husband. In other words, your feminist crap doesn't work with me.
Bert
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From now on, men's rights first.
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by Anonymous User on 12:40 PM September 1st, 2005 EST (#11)
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Come on, Bert.
Frankly I'm glad you're here, I appreciate your passion as an M.R.A. I think we need guys like you.
But listen to what Jen is saying. She DOESN'T treat her husband like a dog. If she did I'd be the first one to jump down her throat about it.
She doesn't say "sit, Dave","Roll over, Dave", or "Sit up and beg, Dave." And then Dave dose what she says. And I am guessing that Jen doesn't use the condescending tone of voice when speaking to Dave like the women who DO try to train their husbands like dogs.
And as far as being "P-whipped" that is the last thing I would use to describe Dave. Read his posts. He is definitely NOT "P-whipped.
I think that Dave and Jen have a lot to teach both men AND women about what relationships are SUPPOSED to be between the genders. Mutual respect, communication, consideration towards one another and valuing the other as a special person who loves you. THAT is the kind of relationship that the feminists have been so successful in destroying the last 3 decades. Personally, I'm GLAD to see that the feminists haven't gotten to ALL women, yet. Jen is a good example of that. I wish their were MORE relationships out there that worked as well as Jen's and Dave's.
Okay, maybe Jen learned her "technique" while training dogs, but that doesn't mean that she treats others LIKE dogs.
I pat my dog on the back to comfort him when he's upset, or scared, I also pat my mother on the back when she's upset. But because I use the same method to comfort both my Mother and my dog, it doesn't mean that I see my mother even remotely like a dog. (I love my Mother)
Sorry, Bert. I don't mean to try and play preacher to you, I'm just trying to help you see what Jen is saying. But you're entitled to your opinion, even if some may disagree with you. Either way I'm still glad you're here.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by jenk on 02:01 PM September 1st, 2005 EST (#12)
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The fact that he doesn't even have to know me to judge me is telling me who is behaving more like a feminist here. The fact that I have been here for 3 years on and off, that I have met several of you in person, that I have put my money where my mouth is and done countless activism projects matters not one bit. Bert is stuck on the whole 'dog' thing...like, well, a dog with a bone.
Bert has his opinions, and he is welcome to them. I do not force my opinion on him, I am not saying he has to communicate with his wife like that. If he wants a woman to set him up to fail then yell at him, which is what passes for communication these days, then that is his business. I did not like the way that worked, for either of us, and sought a better way. One that made us both happy.
Keep pluggin those ears Bert...
LALALALALA!
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Thundercloud
Be assured I feel the same about you and that I too really do appreciate how you stand up against feminism.
But the person we are talking about here is not who you or anybody else thinks she is. That person wrote on this site that she uses dog training techniques on her husband to teach him "communication skills" and her husband confirmed that. She can say whatever she wants now, that doesn't change a damn bit of the facts.
We all know that training men, in what ever way, is the wet dream of every feminazi and as long men keep allowing them to turn their wet dreams into reality, men's rights will never become reality.
I stand to my point, this person is in no way a supporter to the men's movement.
Bert
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From now on, men's rights first.
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by Boy Genteel on 06:12 PM September 1st, 2005 EST (#16)
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"And as far as being "P-whipped" that is the last thing I would use to describe Dave. Read his posts. He is definitely NOT "P-whipped.
I think that Dave and Jen have a lot to teach both men AND women about what relationships are SUPPOSED to be between the genders. Mutual respect, communication, consideration towards one another and valuing the other as a special person who loves you. THAT is the kind of relationship that the feminists have been so successful in destroying the last 3 decades. Personally, I'm GLAD to see that the feminists haven't gotten to ALL women, yet. Jen is a good example of that. I wish their were MORE relationships out there that worked as well as Jen's and Dave's."
Bingo. Well said.
Men are from EARTH. Women are from EARTH. Deal with it.
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by Boy Genteel on 06:10 PM September 1st, 2005 EST (#15)
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"But the person we are talking about here is not who you or anybody else thinks she is. That person wrote on this site that she uses dog training techniques on her husband to teach him "communication skills" and her husband confirmed that. She can say whatever she wants now, that doesn't change a damn bit of the facts."
Here are the FACTS you're talking about. This is from her post from fifteen days ago. Perhaps you missed these paragraphs:
"Now before you all lynch me, here is the kicker. It works both ways. Dave does the same things to me, he will tell me the house looks great when it does, instead of being upset if it doesn't. I make more of an effort to get it looking great because I like the feedback. All these things could be looked at as 'training', but I look at them as communication. My job as a dog trainer is not to 'train' dogs, but to teach the owners how to communicate with their pets. Communication is not training, but learning to both speak and listen.
I have played with the idea of writing a book about this. I think that there is a lot to be learned from these techniques. However, the BBC is not, from what I see, interested in teaching families how to communicate, but in ridiculing men and falsely empowering women.
It's too bad."
I stress: "It works both ways." Jen and Dave EACH use positive reinforcement (rather than punishment and nagging) on EACH OTHER. Jen has learned that it works better with her dogs, and has tried it in dealing with her family, and her family apparently uses the same positive techniques back to her. They each learn to speak and listen -- COMMUNICATE -- to deal with each other amicably.
Jen goes on to say that she wishes organizations like the BBC were receptive to her idea, but, alas, they're more interested in "ridiculing men and falsely empowering women."
Again, this is directly from her post from which you deem her a "feminazi." Now, if this last part sounds to you like someone who has the "wet dream" of subjugating men, you really ought to get your receptors looked at.
You shoot the men's rights movement in the foot when you attack those who are, clearly, on our side and trying to help us. And I won't tolerate that.
Men are from EARTH. Women are from EARTH. Deal with it.
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by Anonymous User on 06:48 PM September 1st, 2005 EST (#17)
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I agree with you 100%, Boy Genteel.
Hotspur.
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Good job Boy Genteel. I bet mistress is very happy with you being such a good boy. Maybe she even allows you to lick her heels tonight.
Bert
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From now on, men's rights first.
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by Boy Genteel on 10:40 AM September 2nd, 2005 EST (#19)
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Hopefully, you now understand why some of us think you're an idiot and, yes, a troll. I just mapped out everything for you, demonstrated why Jen isn't a "feminazi," as you have described her, and why her husband isn't whipped. You went right by. Perhaps English isn't your first language (as your website suggests), which is fine. But if you don't understand what people are writing here, we'll be more than happy to clarify things for you, rather than have you making further stupid comments that make our entire movement look bad.
...because if you DO actually understand what's being written in her defense, then you obviously ARE just a troll, sent here from other websites to try to break up our cause.
Men are from EARTH. Women are from EARTH. Deal with it.
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by Anonymous User on 01:11 PM September 2nd, 2005 EST (#20)
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I ponder whether a lot of what fueled this lively thread came about from the use of specific words like "training" and "dogs."
When you pose that type of relationship, between a superior species and an inferior one (human and dogs, respectively... though I know someone will argue the opposite!), then you set up a certain power equation:
There is the trainer and the trainee.
While you can represent this relationship as being about "communication," it's basically about POWER, because only one party defines what the acceptable outcomes of the training ... errr... communication.... will be.
Jen and Dave suggest that the training ... err... communication .... is reciprocal, and eqalitarian.
Actually, I can accept that. Assuming they both had equal and equally conscious input about the purpose, methods, and goals of the conditioning program they agreed to explore together.
Though it's still kind of a problem that one party defined the training .... err... mutual communication protocols, and "conditioned" her partner to respond to them. (Kind of like initiating the "first kiss? Somebody has to do it...)
At least this discussion has shown that the issues of "power and control" are far more complex and mutual between genders than anything you'd normally find in rad-fem literature, DV propaganda, or on most feminist blogs.
In Sweden, they're currently debating whether men are animals, and whether they are trainable at all!
(roy)
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by jenk on 07:25 AM September 3rd, 2005 EST (#22)
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This IS the same person, Bert. I am the dog trainer, and I wrote that first post.
My husband is one the most stubborn, singleminded peeople on the planet as far as I can see. If you tried to train him he would laugh in your face. If you think I have a chance in hell of training this man you are high. Thus setting him up to fail then punishing him did not work.
He is, however, extremely reasonable, and with open comunication is very willing to meet me half-way.
So actually, by using the techniques I learned on the dogs, i am treating him LESS like a dog, and more like a person.
But, I don't expect you will like that either.
The Biscuit Queen
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by B_Riddick on 08:43 PM August 31st, 2005 EST (#6)
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I must have missed that discussion, but it sounds like you were in the right. The idea of someone using dog training techniques on a human being is insulting. It reminds me of an offensive license plate frame I saw once that said: "Man wanted, will train." Both my friend and I who were there at the time thought that was pretty derogatory, and didn't exactly make us view the woman driving that car in a favorable light.
That's why the "fuss", I'd say...it's insulting.
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Treating an other human being like a dog is the lowest thing one can do, it's total disrespect.
Honestly speaking, I don't give a damn thing what other people do within their 4 walls. If they like to play dog games, so be it, it's their thing. But let there be no misunderstanding; If a man thinks it's OK to be treated like a dog, good. But he definitely should not call himself a MRA. And a woman who tells with pride she has trained her husband like a dog is definitely not a supporter of men's rights. Teaching men how to behave, training men to be good boys, it's the usual feminazi crap. Period.
As far as I am concerned, being MRA is about telling feminists and pussywhipped governments we no longer take it being treated like second class humans, we no longer take it that a man can be robbed of his home, money and children and put in jail just by a single phone call of a lying bitch.
To achieve that goal the first thing any MRA should start with is make it clear to all women that he takes no feminists crap.
Bert
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From now on, men's rights first.
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by jenk on 08:06 AM September 1st, 2005 EST (#9)
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Like what you are doing now, knowing what you think you know and refusing to hear the other side? I know what I know and don't confuse me with the facts?
Yeah, I too am sick of feminist crap, Bert.
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by Anonymous User on 02:00 PM September 2nd, 2005 EST (#21)
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Jenk... "Yeah, I too am sick of feminist crap..."
Well, you fell into a semantic pit when you used loaded terms about "training dogs and husbands."
(See my post above.)
I think you clarified yourself reasonably well, by redefining the training as communication, and by suggesting that it's a mutual undertaking with your partner.
But let's face it, you pushed a real "hot button" when you used that language.
Men (MRA's especially) are becoming more and more attuned to the subtle feminist codes and "conditioning" regimes that we face each and every day... in schools, at work, in church, at home, etc.
Now, if a few men, maybe even MRAs, react emotionally, honestly, and assertively to a language that implies women controlling men and training them like dogs...
Why would you not, as a sympathetic non-feminist woman, at least acknowledge if not affirm the sources of Bert's intelligently emotional response?
I thought women were the empathetic sex, with special and superior relational skills?
Women get to "rage" all the time and it is never questioned.
But when a man expresses outrage, insult, injury, and betrayal, he is lectured about his deficient logic.
So, how do you compassionately train a really, really resistant, hurt, and angry dog?
Or, do you just put him down?
(roy)
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by jenk on 07:33 AM September 3rd, 2005 EST (#23)
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Bet is not a dog. I cannot use rational language on a dog. If Bert was a dog, i would have ignored his angry posts. I would have gone out of my way to post positive things in response to his posts, to slowely over time show him I could be trusted. I would have avoided all confrontation with him so that every interaction would be a positive one.
However, since Bert is not a dog, and since Bert does not want to be treated like a dog, I treated him like a human. I explained myself in more detail, I was logical, and consistant, and kept replying to him in attempts to clarify myself.
Bert responded as if he had not even read my posts.
BTW, I agree the language was not the nicest. I, however, did not choose this show.I was responding to the idea of this telivision program, and trying to show how the idea would have some merit if applied correctly (to both parties in the marriage, and with communication, not training, in mind)
I certainly would not have posted this out of the blue.
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by Boy Genteel on 02:44 PM September 3rd, 2005 EST (#24)
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"I think you clarified yourself reasonably well, by redefining the training as communication, and by suggesting that it's a mutual undertaking with your partner...But let's face it, you pushed a real 'hot button' when you used that language."
Which is why she said, up front, not to get mad until we read the whole thing. Which I know *I* did, anyway, even if others didn't. Jen has a darn good track record here for supporting men's rights, fighting misandry, and overall sticking up for males against sexism. To go after her is barking up the wrong tree, to say the least. I don't want Jen, a strong ally, to stop coming here because some misguided person is giving her a hard time.
"But when a man expresses outrage, insult, injury, and betrayal, he is lectured about his deficient logic."
Men have lots to be outraged about. So get mad at those who truly write insulting things about men, rather than going after a woman who discusses her wonderfully egalitarian message. If we attack GOOD people, we will be crying "wolf" and the public will be less likely to believe us when we go after a BAD person.
Men are from EARTH. Women are from EARTH. Deal with it.
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by Anonymous User on 03:30 PM September 3rd, 2005 EST (#25)
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Jenk wrote ---
"Bert is not a dog. I cannot use rational language on a dog. If Bert was a dog, i would have ignored his angry posts. I would have gone out of my way to post positive things in response to his posts, to slowely over time show him I could be trusted. I would have avoided all confrontation with him so that every interaction would be a positive one."
You still do not GET IT Jen!
You believe you have the right to impose some kind of "operant conditioning" on men.
You're every tactic and "command" (let's be honest) suggests that YOU have decided what the outcome shall be.
You can't "be trusted" when all that you are after is a prescribed outcome and... dare I say it ...
OBEDIENCE?
(roy)
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by jenk on 06:48 PM September 3rd, 2005 EST (#26)
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No, not at all. I said I would not treat him like a dog, and did not. I do not treat anyone here like that. I do not need to foster working relationships in a household with any of you, so if you confront me, I will confront right back, no hard feelings, at least on this side.
The whole point of communication is to get the other person to see your point of view. Otherwise, why say anything? So am I to be labeled as untrustworthy because I both am better at it and honest about it?
Tell me, when have you ever asked for something and honestly did not want nor expect it done? Probably never, since if you neither wanted nor expected it done, it would be a waste of breath to ask in the first place.
Roy, I am not the devil here. No one is. I simply put words to what each of us does every day. That is trying to find the best way to communicate in order to get your point across, and get what we want.
If you think I am bad, look at the public relations business.
The Biscuit Queen
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by Luek on 04:34 PM September 1st, 2005 EST (#14)
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The husband and some others even tried to convince me that being trained like a dog is good for a relationship
I certainly was not one of those "others!"
a female member of this site said she uses dog training techniques on her husband who is also a member.
Well, she is a jerk and her husband is also. I don't know what they would have to positively contribute to this site. Their time would be better spent eating dog yummies.
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ahhkaboom writes "On its website, the BBC says it has