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by Anonymous User on 08:39 PM August 11th, 2004 EST (#1)
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The good old girls network is still steering the d.v. law boat, and considering that women's studies ideologues are at the helm of the domestic violence gunboat I'm not that optimistic that any real recognition of the true reality of domestic violence will come about anytime soon.
The domestic violence industry is built on women's ways of knowing as oppossed to the logic, reason and fairness that men have traditionally tried to embody into law. Furthermore, as long as the domestic violence industry clings to its claims of patriarchal oppression, patriarchal violence and control of women, and other women's studies prejudices there will be insanity at the core of domestic violence law.
Trying to reform the domestic violence industry is like trying to make pie out of a barrel of rotten apples. Better just to throw the whole lot in the garbage and start over with new apples that are not rotten to the core to begin with.
I wish these two representatives of SAFE well. They are very brave to go into the unmuzzled midst of that man-hating, man battering lot.
Sincerely, Ray
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Exactly Ray. While I think it is a small step forward to have these men attend this conference I also think that the VAWA people in DC have been purposefully ignoring the needs of men for years. Testimony has been given repeatedly to their committee hearings in DC and they do NOTHING to lift a finger to be of help to men who are victims. Nothing. This invitation might be likened to prison officials inviting a couple of prisoners to a dinner. I've been to these hearings. I have seen the arrogance and disdain from these people. It is disgusting to watch. Labelling them as being a part of the "Helping Professions" is about as absurd as it comes. Compromising with a terrorist? No thanks. I'm with Ray. The entire system is rotten and needs to be dismantled and replaced with a system that has compassion for all people, not just the favored few.
Do we have True Equality?
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Play by the rules, go by the system....then change the system.
I can't see how this could hurt.
bg
Men are from EARTH. Women are from EARTH. Deal with it.
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by Anonymous User on 05:28 AM August 13th, 2004 EST (#9)
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"Play by the rules, go by the system....then change the system.
I can't see how this could hurt."
I've tried to live my whole life based on that, but in my experience that just doesn't work when dealing with closed minded man-hating bigots like those leading the domestic violence industry. In fact, historically, those snakes love to exploit the integrity and naiveté that men of goodwill extend to them.
IMO, when you are hated for something like skin color, or sex there's nothing you can do to change your status, and not a whole lot you can do to change the mind of the bigots who hate you based on their prejudice(s). It comes as no surprise to me that women's studies educated, domestic violence industry employees appear very intractable in their outlook about the male sex, after all it’s what they teach. When that misandric, hard core bigotry has the high level of input that it does to the domestic violence industry, men will most likely be persecuted for a long time to come.
Ray
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BG said:
"Play by the rules, go by the system....then change the system.
I can't see how this could hurt.
bg"
Okay, tell us what activism you have done that you feel has changed the system? Perhaps you are seeing things that I am not?
Do we have True Equality?
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"Okay, tell us what activism you have done that you feel has changed the system? Perhaps you are seeing things that I am not?"
I'm talking about a policy that we should follow, not necessarily one that we have followed up to this point. But I can tell you that on the issue of domestic violence, for example, many counseling centers do not follow that Duluth Model. The one in my county was already distributing a brochure that says right on the cover, "Anyone can be a victim, regardless of sex, gender, race..." long before I went there with my Safe4All.org brochures. On the day that I went, a woman answered the door and when I made my case she said, "Yes, we serve men here." Then I went to a counseling center in the county just north of mine and told the woman THERE of my experience there, and she said, "Yes, so do we [assist men]." She also said she'd display our brochures at a DV awareness fundraiser at a local coffee house where I've played my guitar. I think how male victims are treated at DV centers depends upon the center. This is a big country. Some are run by fair, kind human beings and some are not.
I think it's great that SAFE is invited to this conference, especially Stanley Green (if I've read right), who you can almost bet money will mention his experiences as a battered man who was discriminated against. And if he's poorly received there, then we have a story to report. With news stories finally being written about women who commit DV against men (written with sympathy towards the male victims), it appears that the lies perpetuated by sexist DV centers appear to be crumbling.
And, with that happening, I'd much rather light a torch than curse the darkness.
Men are from EARTH. Women are from EARTH. Deal with it.
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BG
I have been active in seeking change in the domestic violence industry for the last 4 years or so. There was a time when I felt as you seem to at this point. That if we use the system that all will turn out well. I am not so sure of that at this point. If you have personally been active in seeking change and have some positive stories to tell I would be all ears. If not, hear me when I say that the forces of the DV industry are solid and unyielding towards any sort of compassionate view of men who are victims. The courts, the therapeutic industry, and the police are not dissimilar. I think we need some actions similar to the F4J to wake people to this hurtful misandry.
I think you may have been hoodwinked by those DV places you talked with. They serve men. But did you ask them HOW they served men? When they say they serve men they mean that they offer anger management classes for the male perpetrators. Ask them if they take men in their emergency shelters. Then they will have to tell you the truth. They don't. Separate but equal is the oldest lie told by the staunchest bigots.
Do we have True Equality?
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I think you may have been hoodwinked by those DV places you talked with. They serve men. But did you ask them HOW they served men?
Saying they serve men reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode were a race of space aliens land on earth and make the deserts bloom and do other nice things with their advanced technology. They give a book called, "TO SERVE MAN" to a UN envoy and this gives earth's human population the good impression that these aliens come to serve man by improving things in the world. But it turns out the book, "TO SERVE MAN" is a cookbook! Moral: What you see and believe is not necessarily what is!
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by Anonymous User on 12:41 AM August 15th, 2004 EST (#16)
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I loved that episode. It had neat alien special effects for its time. The ending was great as the main character finally figured out what was going on, and shouted to the rest of his unaware friends getting on the space ship, "It's a cookbook!"
Sure I trust all feminists, and if I don't I'm just being paranoid or bitter. IN A PIG'S EYE. After the corruption I have seen in that movement and the hell I have seen them cause in so many men's lives in the carrying out of their agenda I'd have to be stupid beyond all reality to have any trust in anything they have their evil fingers in. Bitter has a lot less to do with it than just plain old practical first hand experience with what the domestic violence industry is really all about, a bunch of evil radical feminazi crooks with the destruction of men as their agenda. Hey Jade, take some more women's studies courses. Come to Southern CA. You won't be signing the same tune when you leave.
Ray
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by Anonymous User on 09:13 PM August 11th, 2004 EST (#2)
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The domestic violence industry has been battering men for years. At least these SAFE representatives will know where to go if they get beat up at the domestic violence conference.
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I can understand your frustrations, but I think it's a little misplaced. Feminism and people in the domestic violence community are not a uniform group of people. They don't all share the same values, or the same motivations. There are going to be some people who will never change their minds, and there are going to be some that will.
But what SAFE does is reach those who are open-minded but skeptical. And you have to approach them in a way that they'll be able to hear you, speak their language, and be willing to try out different strategies to find ones that work.
Stop Abuse For Everyone
"Our Name is our Mission"
http://www.safe4all.org
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It's certainly true that there are many differing perspectives on domestic violence among counseling professionals and others working in the DV Industry.
The majority of counselors now seem to acknowledge that the radical feminist "Duluth Model" that sees all DV as a result of male domination and the Evil Patriarchy while ignoring female violence is a fraud.
It's widely recognized that feminist "shame and blame" counseling approaches for men are ineffective, do nothing to reduce DV, and in many cases incite reactions that lead to increased risk of violence.
The problem for reforming the DV Industry is that radical feminists control the state's DV agencies and who gets to offer counseling to batterers.
In most states, it is difficult if not impossible for counselors to deviate from the Duluth framework, without risking decertification.
Things are very slowly beginning to change, if only because arrests of female batterers are on the increase nationwide.
Reforming the funding restictions in VAWA would open up the possibility of more inclusive, gender-neutral DV services, but you won't see any politician stand up for this, as they fear feminist vilification.
"It's a terrible thing ... living in fear."
- Roy: hunted replicant, Blade Runner
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If there is such diversity in the domestic violence industry why is it that men have almost no services across this country? There may be some diversity but it has not been enough to even put a dent in the prevailing attitudes that men are the primary perps and women the primary victims. They have been told time and time again that this is not the case and yet they turn a deaf ear, not unlike the woman on mad tv who put her fingers in her ears and said "lalalalalala" in order to block out what others were trying to tell her. I don't see much diversity in the DV industry. What I see is a smiling refusal to treat all people with compassion and a hatred of men that is covered by this smiling silence. I have never seen such as this from people claiming to be compassionate. I find it disgusting and simply hard to believe.
Please tell me how I am incorrect. I would feel much better knowing that I am wrong.
Do we have True Equality?
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Well, before black people got the vote in the US, was that a sign that ALL white people were against their voting?
My take on it is that there are a lot of people who are open-minded, but skeptical or unaware of the issue. If things are presented to them in a way that matches their language and background, they can be won over.
We have people from the domestic violence community who contact us all the time, asking what they can do to offer more inclusive services.
I think unfortunately we can sometimes get so angry about the current situation, that we become someone that they wouldn't want to talk with.
No offense, Ray. I think everyone who's working on this issue, in whatever way they do it, is probably moving things forward. And to be effective, you don't necessarily have to be the 'good cop' (you sometimes need a good cop and a bad cop to win people over). But I would like people to realize that there are a diverse set of ways to respond to this situation.
Stop Abuse For Everyone
"Our Name is our Mission"
http://www.safe4all.org
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by Anonymous User on 12:29 AM August 15th, 2004 EST (#15)
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"No offense, Ray. I think everyone who's working on this issue, in whatever way they do it, is probably moving things forward. And to be effective, you don't necessarily have to be the 'good cop' (you sometimes need a good cop and a bad cop to win people over). But I would like people to realize that there are a diverse set of ways to respond to this situation."
No offense taken, I think there may be different realities in different regions in regards to the domestic violence industry. I stick by my original assesment for the Los Angeles area. You are certainly welcome to come to this area and try to break through the lace curtain. It's just possible that Southern California has more hard core, radical feminist, man haters than other regions do. You only have to attend there functions and listen (and it doesn't take long) to verify that they are certainly in abundance in this area. From what I've read MA and CO strike me as couple of other lace curtain states I wouldn't want to live in as a man.
Ray
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"Well, before black people got the vote in the US, was that a sign that ALL white people were against their voting?"
Good point, jadeforrest. Certainly not *all* white people were opposed. It was, after all, white men, based on their concepts of equality, who extended the vote to include everyone.
The early feminists, the Suffragettes, however, were staunchly and very vocally opposed to black people being allowed to vote.
Ragtime
The Uppity Wallet
The opinions expressed above are my own,
but you're welcome to adopt them.
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Well, before black people got the vote in the US, was that a sign that ALL white people were against their voting?
Interesting you would use that as an example. What got black people their freedom and eventually the right to vote was not talking people into anything. It was violence and death. In order to move the culture away from such a rigid and self-serving circumstance as the belief that slave ownership was acceptable took war and violence to bring that about. Having dinner with slave owners wasn't a very effective mode of change.
I see a similar intransigence now in the domestic violence industry. I pray we don't need violence to change this but I surely see it as a distinct possibility.
Do we have True Equality?
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BTW it was primarily white men who laid down their lives to insure that black men would be free.
These are the same white men that are being demonized by the domestic violence industry. These people should be shamed and outed as hateful misandrists. The sad fact is that almost no one cares.
Do we have True Equality?
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by Anonymous User on 11:10 PM August 12th, 2004 EST (#8)
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Bitter? Nice try to engage in ad hominem rhetoric, but no thanks.
I don't want to dissuade you in your efforts to bring about badly needed changes in the domestic violence industry, and I realize it is not comprised entirely of radical feminists, but they are to this day a major force in that industry and not to be taken lightly. Furthermore, if there is anything misplaced, or out of place in the domestic violence industry it is the language of radical feminist domestic violence advocates who have inserted their “patriarchal propaganda into the prejudices that are at the core of many of domestic violence industries precepts, to wit, the “Duh Loop Wheel” still linked at LAPD’s web site in all its sexist glory. 100% of the gender specific nouns and pronouns used to describe victims and batterer always refer to the batterer as “he” and the victim as “she.”
Other major garbage in domestic violence laws are mandatory arrest & dominant aggressor (words that really just mean “arrest the male”). The male’s bigger, she’s smaller so she must be threatened even if a neighbor was the one who called and it was just an argument. If a female is, setting up to scam her husband through divorce, and pulls the domestic violence scam, the man is just doomed based on “her word.”
Where does it all begin? It’s all a part of the pedagogy preached in over 600 women’s studies programs on college campuses across America. It’s all a part of a plan to destroy patriarchy (men) and transfer wealth to the Stalinist feminist agenda that is now enshrined in domestic violence law (like it or not - admit it or not). Sure there are other aspects that factor into Americas hate war on men, even other factors that come into play in the domestic violence idustries, but I’m limited for space in this post.
The bottom line as I see it is that the domestic violence movement/industry as it exists today, is weapon that is spawned out of a hate movement, and it targets all men for destruction through its insidious radical feminist agenda.
To anyone who wants to work with (and change) such people as the domestic violence industry, the kkk, or nazis, I wish them well, but I for one won’t holding my breath, while waiting for them to change any of those people.
I’ve almost finished “Professing Feminism a book by Daphne Patai (a former women’s studies teacher of 10 years), and it’s just loaded with terms and methodologies used by the women’s industries. As you say it certainly is important to know the language and methodologies of ones enemies, especially when those enemies, like the domestic violence industry, work so tirelessly to bring about your destruction, just because your male.
Sincerely, Ray
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