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Hmm choice
Must be nice.
Take the education, take the jobs, throw it away when you choose, take it back later if you want
Sometimes as a male I feel like I'm a freakin yo-yo. I am sick and tired of having to change and adapt to what women want today. . .tomarrow
please excuse my little rant. . .just tired of being conned
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by Anonymous User on 07:42 PM May 16th, 2004 EST (#2)
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"...younger feminists started putting their panties back on. They wanted all the privileges of being a man, but they still want to be treated like a woman. As always, a woman wants to choose between work and family; men are stuck with whatever is left over. Nobody even asks you.'
That’s a fairly good description of how women's power and control works in society. Women clearly want & have superiority in relationships as evidenced by the broken lives of men who have experienced the prejudices used against them through family law. In the workplace it is not enough that men must pay their dues to earn their salaries by working long hours in the glass cellar jobs. Men are 94% of workplace deaths and a similar percentage of serious workplace injuries. Men also work longer work weeks, and as mentioned work years and years without the “vacations from work” that women manage to get. The fact that men earn more, because of the sacrifices they have made means nothing to the workplace salary expectations of feminists.. Men make sacrifices that women don't, but misandric laws dictate those sacrifices must be negated so women can have the same salaries as men without the same level of effort. It's just another page from the radical/gender feminist playbook called, Life In Totalitarian, Femi-Supremacist America.
Ray
(click) A Man's Right To Choose
(Please do not scroll up the page of the linked item(s). All the info I am trying to convey is only as the page comes up initially.)
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Lisa Belkin is a NYC feminist. NYC has the meanest, most activist feminists in the nation. Her article in the Times magazine was argued for a couple of weeks in the Times forum, alternately criticized for being elitist and racist; but the few men who responded all criticized the fact that she never mentioned that the women's "choices" were only possible because the husbands had to pick up the additional weight. They, of course, were either ignored or flamed by the women who responded. The thread almost reached 1000 posts.
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This is stuff that people should have realized and discussed 20 or 30 or 40 years ago. At this point, dealing with women's desire to be supported by loving men, while the women raise their children, is for most people a fairy tale. Feminists have driven all the required nails into that coffin.
Most advanced societies are not reproducing at anything near replacement rate. (This may sound harsh, but people thought my statements about the destructiveness and evil of feminism was ridiculous decades ago.) Most men will no longer support women, so those women can raise and cuddle their kiddies. We need to look beyond this, to a time when women may once again be, in general, the allies of men. The population collapse of advanced societies will accelerate. And more primitive societies will simply walk in to fill the void. (Think purdah. I really wonder about the nitwit radical Muslims, who so hate developed civilization. If they want to destroy us, they shouldn't be bringing down World Trade Centers, they should be funding Women's Studies departments.)
We now have three primary alternatives:
- Force women to have children. (The probability of this is vanishingly small.)
- Allow more primitive societies (those that really do oppress women) replace ours.
- Develop artificial wombs and use them on a large scale. (Men will be protected from having their children aborted on as little as a whim and from having their children taken from them as a result of divorce. The egg will come from a stem cell, and the sperm, artificially inseminated, will come from the man. There will be no woman to destroy or take the child.)
We need to think outside of the old fashioned box that feminists have destroyed.
Thomas
-- Creating hostile environments for feminazis since the 1970s.
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by Anonymous User on 12:06 AM May 17th, 2004 EST (#6)
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The aus govt has a solution! They will pay every woman who has a baby A$3000. Critics say this will mostly encourage welfare mums, but a baby is a baby...
cheers,
-sd.
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"Force women to have children. (The probability of this is vanishingly small.) "
Why? men are forced to go to wars, forced into slave labor, (alimony, child support), in many countries mandatory military service, etc,etc.
Women can not be froced to have children, give me a break!!, no children no drivers license, no health insurance, no pension benefits, may be some jail time, it is easy, they do it to men regarding "child" support, could be call it society support, call childless women deadbeat women, or may be social terrorist, (whatever), same laws, same propaganda, same idiots believing whatever the media says and voila!!, lot of children.
Just wait till they reckon that the cost to force women to have children is much cheaper than the cost to force men to pay women to have them through marriage, slave labor or taxes.
Hitler did it, kiderfarms, so nothing new.
I would rather that the goverment gives all people the same right to have children, thus doubling the people potentially interested on having them, (rigth now only women), and gives incentives to all citizens, (men and women), to have them, as in Norway for example.
Not the absurd system that we have right now that denies half of the population the right to have children and force them to perform slave labor, to use the maney obtained this way to finance the cost of having children of the other half and gives them economic incentives to fo it.
PD: Having children is having the right to decide if one wants to have them or not, (if women are allowed to have the unilaterally but not men men are denied this right), have the right to chose with whom, (abortion is a priviledge of women, men are excluded), and the right to rise your children, (a father is not a sperm provider).
Sumarizing western men do not have repoductive rights at all, (so there is no reason to have children ), furthermore there is strog reasons to avoid them, being sentenced to 20 years of slave labor, in fact, giving children to women, is a serious crime, the seriousness os a crime is reflected on the sentences awarded to them, and 20 years of slave labor is not a parking fine, the goverment is strongly disincentiving men to give children, the message is clear and law abiding , males are reacting in concordance.
When goverments wants people to plant oranges the subsidiaze it, if they want to discourage something they fine it, when they seriously want to discourage something they criminalize it, well men do not get pay any money to have children, neither fined, just criminalized, ¿what is the moral of this tale?.
Bring more mexicans to USA and more Muslims to Europe, becouse women can not be forced to have children, ¿right?, wrong, just wait, ¿do you thing that people in power that has zero respect for males basic rights and well being are really concern about female wishes?, no way, now is easier to exploite males but this will end more sonner than later and then ¿guess who is next?.
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"Force women to have children. (The probability of this is vanishingly small.) "
Why? men are forced to go to wars, forced into slave labor, (alimony, child support), in many countries mandatory military service, etc,etc.
I brought this point up at a party two nights ago. You should have seen the looks on the faces of the women.
It will take a major change in social values before women are forced to do anything. (The women at the party insisted that it would be far worse to be forced to have children than to be forced into war.) But major change may come fast, once the real depth of the population-collapse crisis becomes evident. At that point, there'll probably be a panic. Right now, governments are trying to solve the problem by throwing money at it ($$$ for parents, especially mothers) and by guilt tripping men. The results seem to be less than promising.
I've read (unfortunately, I don't remember where) that within a generation the majority of the people in France will be Muslim. In two generations, the majority of voters will be Muslim. And they're generally not leaving their culture behind, when they immigrate or have children. In some of the inner cities of France, women and girls are already in extreme danger because of this.
Societies are just beginning to realize that feminism is a mortal threat. Unfortunately, by the time that people wake up and really start to do something about it, it may be too late to save the world's advanced societies.
There are two things in particular that are leading us to our doom, and they are both direct results of feminism: the collapse of male-education and population implosion.
We're in for a hell of a ride.
Thomas
-- Creating hostile environments for feminazis since the 1970s.
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"I brought this point up at a party two nights ago. You should have seen the looks on the faces of the women. "
I can imagine similar ones the aristocrats had before the french revolution when asked about giving up some of their priviledges, what a different ones they had when facing their fellows having their heads choped by the guillotine while waiting their turn.
"(The women at the party insisted that it would be far worse to be forced to have children than to be forced into war.)"
Hypocrites!!, thats why they get pregnant to avoid going to war, (on the other hand this is absurd, those women should be sent to the firing squad as it is domne to any men that injures himself on pourpose to avoid being sent to combat).
"Right now, governments are trying to solve the problem by throwing money at it ($$$ for parents, especially mothers) and by guilt tripping men. The results seem to be less than promising. "
Correct see Europe, its population is descending, and this counting with millions of migrants that enter every year.
Right now one of each three children born in Belgium is muslim, one of each five in France, and one of each seven in Germany.
Child support do not work here, we have income support and very high taxes, child support is almost simbolic for the average male, otherwise he would stop working, that would be very bad new for the goverment, another on income support and no taxes and social security contributions collected.
Men have no incentive to have children, what for afterall? no rights no reason for having children , or i should say giving children, (to women)?. Most women are not interested in having children without a willing parter on her side.
More money from taxes for women? sure you heard about the laffer curve, in Germany taxes had to be lowered as they were colecting less rather than more, less incentive to work, invest, more incentive to commit fiscal fraud, so no more money from the goverment, no more males willing to support children they do not have the right to rise children that in some cases no even decided to have, and no real possibility to force them to fo it.
So, what is left?, may be forcing women to have children is not so ireal. how was that?
A WOMAN HAS TO DO WHAT A WOMAN HAS TO DO!!
Afterall any mentally retarded woman of a third world country is more productive than the average female of the west, they have 6, 7 children and at very low cost, so, why keep on paying western women that the only thing that produces is misery?.
Wether they have children or get exchanged for women from the third world, women that for sure will be willing to come to the west and willing to have children, so why keep on wasting time and resources on those useless creatures?, i really see no point.
Men pay most of the taxes, two thirds, women just one third, but women get most of the benefits from the goverment, and they can no even have the ammount of children required, give me a break!!, and still demand more and more resources to be spent, (wasted i would say), on them, lets just trade those useless parasites for Asian or African women.
"Societies are just beginning to realize that feminism is a mortal threat. Unfortunately, by the time that people wake up and really start to do something about it, it may be too late to save the world's advanced societies. "
In Europe no mere than 20 years left, arround 18 million of imigrants a year enter the European union, they are very prolific, the country with less inmigrants is Spain and it is said in the year 2025 half of the population would be composed of imigrants or their families, but i must confess i don´t care at all, in fact i find african women much nicer and men-friendly than local ones, and local ones do not compare with american ones regarding selfihness, and feminist indoctrination, in such would be the case, God help us!!.
"There are two things in particular that are leading us to our doom, and they are both direct results of feminism: the collapse of male-education and population implosion."
Well, true, but let´s look allways at the good side of things, this experiment will be a very useful lesson for other cultures.
In every society there are productive members and non productive members, giving the right to have children to the people that do not work to support them while expecting the productive ones to do it, is plainly absurd and suicidal.
If the parasites are let to make the rules of the society, this soiciety is doomed, market for extintion, as we are witnessing.
This will be realised sooner or later, that´s for sure, but then it will be to late due to lagging.
Take care!!
PD: just relax and put yourself on spectator mode.
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"Women can not be froced to have children, give me a break!!,"
During a one-sided discussion on why "men have things better in society", my pro-feminist/women-firster friend stated that one of the reasons it was better to be a man was that "women *had* to have babies".
Strange, I didnt realize that becoming pregnant was a biologically guarantee. I thought that a woman had to make a conscious decision to participate in mating?
R
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"The population collapse of advanced societies will accelerate. And more primitive societies will simply walk in to fill the void. (Think purdah. I really wonder about the nitwit radical Muslims, who so hate developed civilization. If they want to destroy us, they shouldn't be bringing down World Trade Centers, they should be funding Women's Studies departments.)"
Is hapening and time is running out, may be 20 yars left no more, read this:
Muslims Attending Prayers Outstrip Christians In U.K.
Some 930,000 Muslims go to the mosque at least once a week
LONDON, January 27 – The number of British Muslims praying at mosques has outstripped the number of regular worshippers in the Church of England, the mother church of the Anglican communion, which covers 160 countries, a mass-circulation British daily reported.
According to figures compiled from government and academic sources, some 930,000 Muslims go to the mosque at least once a week against 916,000 Anglicans, The Sunday Times said.
The figure does not include young children and does not give a real estimate of practicing Muslims, given that many of whom pray at home.
Tariq Modood, a professor of sociology at Bristol University, has found that 62 percent of Muslims pray in places of worship.
The Muslim community does not keep registers of attendance in mosques, the British daily said.
Archbishop of York David Hope, second in the church hierarchy, acknowledged that the number of Muslim worshippers has become greater in amount.
But he said that many more people "have an affinity" to the church than the number recorded as having attended once on a Sunday.
The figure proves the rise of Islam in Britain and the religious freedom enjoyed by around three million Muslims in the country amid calls for allocating more seats in the House of Lords to Muslims and other religious communities.
The Church of England has 26 seats in the House of Lords. However, the recent figures do not include Catholics.
Britain's Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) released recently a CD targeting the sizable Muslim community, reminding them that they are part and parcel of the British society and that their contribution "is not just a matter of history, but a reality in every walk of life".
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One more about the falling of the west:
Chicago Tribune (01.10.2003)/- Two years ago, Mahmood Khawel, a 34-year-old financial consultant and devout Muslim from the Midlands city of Peterborough, wanted a quickie divorce.
So he went to an Islamic court in London where he performed the divorce ritual known as talaq. Standing before a judge, he declared three times in succession that he was repudiating his wife. Judge Omar Bakri Muhammad, an expert in Shariah, the sacred law of Islam, granted the divorce on the spot.
But now Khawel and his wife have changed their minds. They want to reconcile. Last week, Khawel was back in Muhammad's courtroom, asking for an annulment of the talaq.
"OK, brother, don't worry," Muhammad told him.
None of this would be recognized in any British civil court, according to legal experts, but for growing numbers of Britain's 3.6 million Muslims, Shariah is the law.
During the past decade, a parallel universe of Islamic jurisprudence has sprouted across Britain. Shariah courts can be found in almost every large city. In London, different Muslim immigrant groups--the Somalis in Woolwich, for example--have established ad hoc courts that cater to their community's needs.
Most operate quietly
No one knows how many of these courts are operating in Britain. Because of their informal nature, reliable statistics do not exist.
Most of the Shariah courts go about their business quietly. But Muhammad, 44, a native of Syria who studied Islamic law in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, does not shy from controversy.
His outspoken support for Osama bin Laden and his praise for the Sept. 11 hijackers--"the magnificent 19," he calls them--have landed him in trouble with British anti-terrorism authorities. Earlier this year, police closed his north London office, and last month they seized all his legal files.
But the faithful who fill the makeshift courtroom above a North London sweatshop care little about Muhammad's politics. They come here because they believe he is uniquely qualified to settle their marital disputes, sort out their business partnerships and decide the amount of blood money that should be paid to compensate the victim of a crime.
In his white gown, white skullcap and beard, Muhammad is an imposing figure behind the cluttered table that serves as his bench. Justice is rendered with swift certainty, and many pleadings are handled via the Internet.
Divorces form the bulk of his caseload. For men, getting a divorce is simple. For women, it can be more problematic. Usually, women have to buy their way out of an unhappy marriage. They also have to give up custody of their children and forfeit their property rights.
Muhammad said he tries to be lenient with women who are the victims of physical or psychological abuse by their husbands. These women are not required to pay off their husbands, and they also get to keep their jewelry and dowry, which are considered the bride's property under Islamic law.
He also said he gives the benefit of the doubt to women in cases where they married against their will. In these instances, he said, he simply annuls the marriage contract.
But if a woman wants a divorce "because her husband is impotent or he smells bad or he is ugly," the woman has to pay her husband double the value of her dowry, he said. In all cases, community property and custody of the children go to the husband. In the case of very young children, there is joint custody until age 7. Then the father gets full custody.
The custody laws are "quite logical," Muhammad said. "A child comes from the seed of a man. The woman is the soil in which the seed is planted. A man is fully entitled to the fruit of his seed."
British civil law would disagree, but Muhammad shrugs.
"I can't change God's law," he said.
Separate realms
Anjem Choudary, a lawyer with a degree from a British university, represents clients in Shariah court as well as in Britain's civil court system. He often hears the argument that when Muslims choose to live in Britain, they should obey British law.
"They do obey British law," he said. "But the Shariah is God's law. It is a fundamental part of being a Muslim. If you call yourself a Muslim you must put God's law ahead of man's law."
When the two are in conflict, as in the case of child custody laws, God's law prevails, he said. But why would a woman give up custody and surrender her property rights when she could easily obtain a no-fault civil divorce? The answer is usually family pressure.
A Muslim woman who ignored Islamic strictures and obtained a civil divorce would immediately be declared an apostate. In the insular and tightly knit immigrant communities of Britain, this would disgrace her entire family.
"The Shariah is what we live and die by," said Khawel, the man who was seeking to annul his divorce. Khawel and many others in the Muslim community have little faith in Britain's "manmade laws." This is especially true when their main source of information about it is the tabloid press, which tends to highlight cases of rapists escaping punishment while homeowners go to jail for defending their property against burglars.
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We are not the only ones that see what is comming, here is what a friend posted after his feminist divorce:
I believe that despite all the efforts done by so many men`s sites, we will not succeed in changing the actual situation. Quite on the contrary: it will only get worse. The entire Western civilization is bound to end-up in the ditch. Of that I am certain.
It is only a question of time. I could bet my life on it.
There is, however, a very simple solution to all the desperation and grief that men must endure. There exists a very efficient way to end this slow agony. I would like to present my thoughts to you.
The main reason for this endless gender war is …. the children. And there seems to be no limit to the hatred and the misandry.
Therefore, by suppressing the source of the pain, the pain should disappear. Shouldn`t it?
My proposed solution is this:
1-Men must forego marriage. (Abolition of marriage preferable)
2-Men must refuse to father children. (Abolition of fatherhood and vasectomy are best)
3-Mandatory abortion.
If men stop marrying and breeding, they will enjoy freedom again. Of that there can be no doubt. It will eventually put an end to feminism through attrition.
The program I wish to propose is to run a huge and constant campaign by putting ads on television, advertising everywhere, newspapers, radio, etc…always the same message, it will eventually dawn on men that this is their ONLY alternative. We must hit where it hurts most! I believe that you can measure the impact….
Typically speaking, it is not the man who wants children: it is the woman. Men do not need children…..until they see their own offsprings.
Let us stop complaining about the injustices : it`s a dead-end, and simply eradicate the source of this injustice. And if there are still women wanting children, well, there are sperm banks on every street corner. Let THEM pay for everything and let THEM do all the work of raising children. Who cares if our society collapses?
Do you?
I don`t! (In fact, I hope it will).
Who knows: maybe it`s time for the West to say good bye? Let the Muslims in: they will be the next civilzation. We have done our share. In my opinion, the white race has to disappear: it`s the only way to save humanity, or what`s left of it.
When men will finally be freed from all the crap, they will be able to enjoy life as they wish and they still can have sex free of charge. Did anybody come up with a better solution?
Each time i see goverments passing new laws to degrade men even further, each time i see how things get worst for men, and aboveall each time i see men supporting their own explotation or the explotation of their brothers, fathers and sons, i become convinced that feninist will never be defeated and that WAS depreesing, not any more, i really find comfort on the knowledge that the awhole west is bound to die out and with it the feminazies and their male minions.
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This was a stupid article. I guess the point was to comfort and coddle the women on the "mommy track" and say "yes dear, it is okay, plenty of women want to have families right now." But it doesn't address anything!
It doesn't address whether or not it is fair to be awarding scholarships in business and sciences if women aren't going to make careers out of them.
It doesn't address whether or not it is fair for corporations or constituents to consider a person for a job they'd like them to have life-long, where the person will be wanting to drop out and start a family after X years.
It doesn't address, as other posters have said, the fact that women wouldn't be able to be stay-at-home-moms without a man to work [which ties into the above points].
All in all, wishy-washy slop.
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by Anonymous User on 02:27 AM May 17th, 2004 EST (#7)
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"It doesn't address whether or not it is fair for corporations or constituents to consider a person for a job they'd like them to have life-long"
Does ANY corporation consider people for life-long jobs nowadays?
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Same crap, different day. It's always about womens rights and choices and men's responsibilities and obligations. It is taboo to talk about men's choices and women's responsibilities. Unfrickenbelievable.
We need to keep bringing up our issues and bring them up in a way that can't be missed.
Come to the Men's Rights Congress and help us bring them up.
Mens Rights 2004 Congress
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by Anonymous User on 10:50 PM May 17th, 2004 EST (#16)
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Oh man I want to meet up with you two. It would be so cool to meet you guys in person. I don't know a single person who feels the way I do about men's issues except for individuals I've met over the internet; it would be nice to put a face with a handle :) I've really come to admire alot of the regulars at this site - I've learned so much from the people here, and men's activism has really been an emotional sanctuary for me. Someday I hope to meet some of you to say "thank you" and shake your hand.
Thomas, I'll be there with you and luna in spirit.
-hobbes
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