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by Anonymous User on 12:26 PM February 27th, 2004 EST (#1)
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Women want to retain the privileges associated with the pre-feminist notion that "womens place is in the home". Thus in the family court they expect the home to be regarded as her place and the husband can be thrown out if she feels like it. However whilst holding onto her traditional privileges in relation to the home, she doesn't see why she should observe the traditional duties associated with these privileges.
All genders are equal but one gender is more equal than the other.
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I have to say that this can be a real problem. I have a friend who works about 10 hours a week more than her husband and makes twice his salary, and since he works nights that means she also has sole responsibility of the kids all week too. It is utter bullshit that he does not help with the housework. He is the one with more free time, and more alone time, yet he does very little to run the house, and that includes repairs and lawn maintainance.
However, she also will not confront him, or let things go until he does them, so she could fix this if she were firm. I think that you need to be able to shit or get off the pot. You want help, you sit down and ask for it. You don't get up until an agreement is made as to who does what, and then you back off and let him do it. It may turn out some men do more than they thought, it may turn out the men really are not doing nearly their share. If things are not done the way you like, you either must have good reasons why things must change (ie the work clothes are permanately stained now because you didn't pretreat them), do it yourself, or you get over it.
Men do have a tendancy to do a crappy job to get out of doing things (the laundry), just as women tend to be airheaded to get out of others(getting the oil changed). It does not make it right. We all know people who pretend they don't see things that are right there so they don't have to do them. It isn't right and it is disrespectful for men or women.
I for one am a stay at home mom because Dave was really bad about doing housework. As far as he is concerned, he would rather pay someone to do the job, which pretty much negates any money I would bring in from working, so might as well stay home. Since I stay home, I do not ask him to contribute at all to the house work. Works for us.
Please do not be so quick to judge this article. Many working women are stuck in the in between zone where they work and bring in money but are married to men who would like all the perks of having a stay at home wife with all the benifits of a working wife. The double standard goes both ways.
The Biscuit Queen
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Please do not be so quick to judge this article...the double standard goes both ways.
Sure it does - the problem with the article is that it makes no mention of that. It doesn't talk about cases where one spouse is doing more than the other, its only about women getting men to do more work. And men, in general, do plenty of work already. There are cases like your friend where the woman works more and earns more, but usually its the other way around. And if one partner puts in 10 more hours a week at office, why shouldn't the other put in 10 more hours per week in housework?
Without mentioning these possibilities, I'm afraid this article will just encourage wives with part time jobs to demand that their husband, who regularly puts in 10 hours of overtime every week, come home and do 50% of the housework.
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I would put to you that women also do a crappy job to get out of things, and that your example serves that pretty well. The equivalent to doing the laundry is changing the oil. Taking the car to a shop to pay to have it changed is like taking your clothes to the cleaners.
Your friends' husband is in a pretty good position to just take their clothes to a full service laundry. Since he's not the primary wage-earner, he can use that to force the issue by threatening an expensive solution, which is the threat implied by your example wife taking her car to Jiffy-Lube.
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by Anonymous User on 02:55 PM February 27th, 2004 EST (#5)
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I feel equality means equality. Sure men should have equal obligation to do the house work. However, associated with this obligation they should have equal rights of residence in the home. They currently do not have equal rights of residence. In reality, they have no rights of residence. He can live in the house for so long as the woman consents that he should live there, and no longer.
I disargee with the article because it argues equal sharing of household duties, but NOT equal sharing of household rights, the most important of which is the right of residence.
It is yet another example of women rejecting traditional duty and yet refusing to reject traditional privilege, thereby creating a state of gender inequality.
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by Anonymous User on 05:15 PM February 27th, 2004 EST (#9)
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Sorry, Jen, but I must disagree. The whole calculation of "who does more work" is (very conveniently for women) framed in terms of the number of hours spent at each task. However, compare a bricklayer or construction worker who spends his time in demanding physical work, or a computer programmer or research scientist who spends his time in demanding mental work, versus a secretary who works in a comfortable office and pushes papers all day. The man is dead-beat tired when he comes home, while the woman is not. The simple fact is that the man did more work, regardless of the numbers of hours clocked.
Then, perhaps, the man would like also to spend a little time with his children when he gets home, make sure they complete their homework, practice piano, etc. My (stay-at-home) wife tells me, don't worry about the housework. It's much more important that I develop a relationship with my children. And I feel much the same way with her - I don't care if the house isn't spic-and-span clean (with small children around, it's never going to be anyway) - it's the children that are important. Of course, if my wife really needs help with something, she'll ask me nicely, and I'll do it.
Over and above all that, when the man is doing all that was asked of him in prior ages - busting his butt at a job to provide for his family, and overseeing the moral and mental development of his children, he is doing his "fair share" - pure and simple, no matter how much women may complain. If they choose to seek "self-fulfillment" in the workplace - thereby creating more work overall - they must deal with the consequences and cease complaining about how men refuse to rearrange their whole lives around it.
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Basically, I'm with Jen here here. The problem with the article, however, is that it approaches this problem in a vacuum. That leaves so much room for rebuttal. BUT, BUT, BUT!
Irrespective of the above, the fact remains that *some* men don't do their *fair* share in performing the necessary efforts required to maintain a household. Some women don't either. But, that's neither here nor there. The focus on the article is men who don't do their *fair* share. Many don't.
The real problem with this I believe is that the other partner feels slighted and disrespected when the other doesn't carry his/her load. It doesn't matter what the load is, just so that they manifest their desire to do that which is required to make the union work as painlessly as possible. This is something that the partners should come to an understanding with each other as circumstances change over time.
My father always told me that marriage is 60/40 proposition ... on both parts. That is, BOTH partners should exhibit a willingnees to give 60% while receiving 40%. It's all about the attitude one brings to their marriage.
The article can't encompass every issue in a marriage, and is short on showing appreciation and the like. Discussing any problem in a vacuum leaves much room for rebuttal. Nevertheless, if you love your partner you do that which makes their life easier.
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by Anonymous User on 03:08 AM February 28th, 2004 EST (#15)
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"the fact remains that *some* men don't do their *fair* share in performing the necessary efforts required to maintain a household. Some women don't either. But, that's neither here nor there. The focus on the article is men who don't do their *fair* share. Many don't."
True, but this topic is almost always framed with men not doing their fair share of the work. I don't really see that much articles on how women aren't doing their fare share of the work.
Same with us always being told that women are in the worst working conditions, while it's men who are the ones in the most hazardous jobs, and are the main ones getting killed, injured or sick from work. Our society constantly pritoritizes women.
It's always focused on the female point of view. It creates a one sided story.
p. george
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by Anonymous User on 06:46 AM February 28th, 2004 EST (#17)
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." I don't really see that much articles on how women aren't doing their fare share of the work."
Exactly. When are women going to get into the glass cellar and do their "fair share" of society's dangerous degrading debasing filthy jobs?
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Irrespective of the above, the fact remains that *some* men don't do their *fair* share in performing the necessary efforts required to maintain a household. Some women don't either. But, that's neither here nor there. The focus on the article is men who don't do their *fair* share. Many don't.
Are we supposed to care? I sure as hell don't.
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A major underlying problem here is that women have been bitching so much for so long about everything men do that more bitching tends to roll off men like water off a duck's back.
Since most people tend to look around at the people they know and generalize from what they see and their own experiences, articles of this type are particularly useless because they take a few cases and project it into a national or global trend. I have known plenty cases of the opposite.
A member of my family is married to a woman who has worked maybe 3 years out of their 20 year marriage. He often works 60+ hours per week. Yet all that anyone ever hears about is how he doesn't help her enough around the house and doesn't spend enough time with her meeting HER needs.
About 15 years ago, I made the terrible mistake of "oppressing" a woman into living expense-free on my generousity. I had lived alone for years and was in the habit of doing all the household laundry, and had a cleaning service come in regularly to clean the house, so I just kept doing that. One time we got into a screaming match over how the towels which I had washed "HAD TO" be folded. It wasn't something I had ever given much thought to - I just folded them and stuck them in the closet.
When I asked just what the hell was such a big deal about how towels, which sat on a closet shelf until they were used, were folded, her response hit one of those raw nerves which sends people through the roof - "Well, because ****I****" like things neat and clean" with such emphasis on the "****I****"" that the clear insinuation was that I was a slob and she was such a total neatnick.
What pissed me off so much was that the reality was totally the opposite - this conversation was taking place in a room with THREE piles of her dirty clothes and one huge pile of her shoes on the floor. She couldn't pick up her own damn dirty clothes or put her own shoes in the closet, yet she had to have control over how SOMEONE ELSE folded a bunch of stupid towels that no one but us ever saw.
And, it all did boil down to a control issue. Marriage had never been discussed and I had no intention of marrying her. I was already established in my career while she was just getting out of grad school, so we made the agreement that while she was getting on her feet she would make a largely symbolic contribution of $100/month toward maintenance of the household. I never saw one dime, but she certainly had the money to spend thousands of $$$ on vet bills for her dog. The dog, BTW, was never allowed in the carpted areas of the house, which was another chronic bone of contention.
Underneath this seemingly simple issue, but also seemingly a major one to women, lurks some really ugly control issues. What I hear from women is that they want men to do half the work, but they want to retain 100% of the control of "setting the standards". Most men won't stand for that in general, and sure as hell not from another man - "Hey, if you don't like the way I am doing it, then do it yourself." But, by exploiting the personal nature of the relationship, and by many of the indirect and manipulative ways discussed in this article, women often breed a very natural resistance in men to being controlled at that level - issues which we, ourselves, often consider trivial and to not be worth arguing and fracturing the intimacy of the relationship over.
Perhaps the clearest example of the control compulsion which I have ever seen came in the case of an ex-gf who was talking to me about her husband. When she went shopping, she wanted him to come down and help her carry in the groceries. Sounds fair, right? The problem was NOT that he didn't help her, the problem was that he didn't drop whatever he was doing and rush right down to the garage whenever he heard the car pull in, WITHOUT HER HAVING TO ASK HIM!
If she would simply open the door and yell "Hey, will you give me a hand with the grocieries?" he would trot right down and actually carry most of them up. She would carry one load, then stay in the kitchen putting things away while he carried up the rest.
Everything - all her resentment and anger - hinged on the fact that he wasn't trained like an obedient little lap dog to rush to the door the moment his "mistress" came home, eager to do her bidding. This is not a "double standard", it is an insane, idiotic, standard. One simple little courtesy - ASKING for help, and being specific about what is being asked for - would have made this huge issue into a complete non-issue.
But, rather than make one tiny change in her own behavior which would have solved the problem from the male POV, she was demanding that HE change ENTIRELY and divide his attention between whatever he was doing and listening for the garage door so he could be standing there waiting to "help" her, WITHOUT HER HAVING TO ASK.
(any questions why she was an EX-gf, and was married to some other poor schmuck and not me?)
Time and again when I listen to women bitch about this and similar issues, it all boils down to a major control issue and the women being angry at the men for simply being different and not internalizing the female's values so that communication is not necessary. And, this is one of the things which pisses men off at women so much - the indirect games they play with communication. It is the same BS as all the "I gave him my signals" and "no means no, means yes, means maybe, oh what-the-hell who knows what the hell it means?" business.
I have the perfect solution - ABSOLUTE "equality". I live in my house, pay 100% of the bills, do 100% of the work (or pay to have it done) required to maintain it, and make 100% of the decisions regarding what has to be done and when it has to be done, and to what standards it has to be done. She lives in her house, and has 100% control and responsibility there. 100%/2 households = EXACTLY, PRECISELY 50%, to as many decimal places as you want to carry it.
"Not having to listen to her bitch about every trivial and insignificant issue in the world... PRICELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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by Anonymous User on 12:23 PM February 29th, 2004 EST (#29)
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""Underneath this seemingly simple issue, but also seemingly a major one to women, lurks some really ugly control issues." Very true. By sharing housework feminists mean women should become household managers and men should be household flunkees. Women should decide what stays,what goes, what goes where, and how everything is arranged. By "tidiness" she means tidiness according to her own, and not her husbands standards. In reality, many men find women to be quite slovenly and men, when living alone, frequently produce a far more ordered and tidy environment. It's all about control. Women want authority but not the associated duties.
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Hey Zen!
Greetings brother. I agree with you and the poster who replied to you on this. My wife has a habit of doing something you both mentioned. She's not mean or "playing games", she's just a nag sometimes. We don't really tussle too much about it, 'cause I cut her off when she does it. What is "it"? She'll ask me to do somthing, and stand next to me and direct me while I do it. FREAKING-A is THAT annoying. I love her, she's great, but damn if that don't get under your skin. And my wife does a "core-dump" on our conversations constantly. What I mean is that she'll understand that I don't want her directing me on a task she asked me to do, leave me alone, and let me do it, but the next day: same thing. And she always is like: "oh, sorry, am I doing that?". And she REALLY does mean it. She's not TRYING to drive me nuts, but it's really annoying. I tell her, every time, either do it yourself, or ask me to do it, do NOT ask me to do it and "supervise" me WHILE I do it. I tell her: "I know from past experience what you want, don't stand there and micromanage me WHILE I do it." She means well, she truly does.
I think this is somehow hardwired into women. I dunno. But I hear it so often that I surmise it to be true.
Steven
Guerilla Gender Warfare is just Hate Speech in polite text
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by Anonymous User on 03:12 PM February 27th, 2004 EST (#6)
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I guess my take on the article is that out of ten suggestions, not one of them is to say "thank you" when the guy does something. It often gets to the point where it doesn't matter how much you contribute, it's never enough. Some women can never be happy and we all know whose fault that is.
I stayed overnight with a girlfriend one time, and since I woke up first I went in and cleaned up her filthy kitchen. She's a complete slob. I even scraped all the scum out of her coffee maker. She finally got up and I asked "how's it look?" "What, you think you get special credit for washing dishes? That's not just women's work you know," she responded. Guess who's not getting their dishes washed any more?
TLE
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After asking him over and over again to put his things in the hamper, I would throw out anything he threw on the floor.
Hmmm. I betcha if you tossed her clothes out (destruction of property) it would be considered an act of violence.
But I guess that's different.
This topic is one of my pet peeves. They never mention that although men's work around the house may not have to be performed as frequently (eg. electrical, landscaping, plumbing, roofing, siding, painting, general contracting and automotive/small engine repair and operation) it is much more difficult, requires special skills and tools and is often dangerous. So I think it evens out in the end. How many loads of laundry equal shingling a roof? I can tell you which I'd rather do. What would each cost you in real dollars? How many women have died from heart attacks while doing some light dusting compared to men keeling over while shovelling out the driveway?
And in my experience when I try to do things to help out I am told that I have not done it properly. I put the clothes through the washer and dryer. I do not mix the colours and whites and ruin the clothes. I simply do not fold them and put them in the drawers the way she would, so I am told that it is all wrong.
I guarantee that if she would shovel the driveway I would not complain that it was done wrong. I'd just be happy that I did not have to do it. Especially since we just got a record amount of snowfall. :)
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And in my experience when I try to do things to help out I am told that I have not done it properly.
I just made this same point in a much longer post. The power game seems to be to always find something to criticize and complain about, then to take on the martyr mantle of having to "do it all". I have seen this thousands of times - nitpicking over the way things are done, without once EVER acknowleging that they actually were done.
This is one of the more covert games women use to maintain their traditional power base of the home. When men had work where they could be the "experts" and women had the home where they could be "the expert", there was not nearly as much need to compete in BOTH spheres at the same time. But, modern women today want to claim superiority it BOTH environments - the better to browbeat men into working themselves to death trying to please a woman who is essentially a bottomless pit.
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Nothing like doing someone a favor, and getting the proverbial slap in the face for your efforts.
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by Anonymous User on 07:33 PM February 27th, 2004 EST (#11)
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My best guess is, that women with this kind of mind-set think that "women's lib" means that not only does a man do HIS work, but HER work as well.
Just my guess...,
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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TLE ... that kind of answer would have set me off. I would have just left w/out a word.
I mean, did you deserve some sexual favor or a special dinner for what you did? No, but a simple and sincere thank you would have been nice. And her whole "I guess that's not women's work" attitude is bullshit. SHE wasn't doing it in the first place. She probably, total speculation - though not unfounded from her attitude, even told her friends that you did the job and were a jerk about it.
That kind of attitude is totally self-absorbed. I don't care what gender the person is. I've seen guys in college who were all about "me me me" too, and had some girl (in a gender-reversal) do the nice work and not even get a thank you. Selfish and childish people are of both genders.
My wife is great. If I do a job she makes sure to thank me. I do the same. It's a ritual we both have, and it helps a lot for the person doing the chore to feel appreciated. To be honest she does more of the housework, but that came out from how she wants it done. She would tell me to do something and then direct me. I told her endlessly not to do that, but it seemed to go from ear to ear and out into space. She is happier that she does it, and when I offer to help, it's usually to fold the laundry or be her assistant. Which, for the most part, I don't mind. I am OFFERING to be in that position. When she gets bossy I just tune her out, something women seem hard-wired to HATE. Hey, it works for us.
Steven
Guerilla Gender Warfare is just Hate Speech in polite text
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by Anonymous User on 07:56 PM March 1st, 2004 EST (#43)
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I liked it alot better when "equality in a relationship" MEANT "equality in a relationship".
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Anonymous User on 03:56 PM February 27th, 2004 EST (#8)
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According to Sacks:
"Men are doing at least as much household work as women, according to a new survey conducted by the University of Michigan Institute for Social Research (ISR), the world's largest academic survey and research organization.
New Survey Confirms Men Do Fair Share of Household Work
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Matt commented -- "Stuff like this is only one more reason for men to eschew marriage..."
I would never eschew marriage just because I might not get fair credit for my contributions to the domestic maintenance of the household.
I know how to cook, clean, do laundry, dust, vacuum, change the auto oil, clean the gutters, mow the grass, trim the trees, seal the deck, etc. etc.
No biggie.
I would (and do) eschew marriage because it is an automatic disembowelment of my financial and legal rights as a person, and because there is nothing any female has to offer that would be worth my individual liberty.
Less significant but still gratifying, I don't have to ask my "better half" which vaccum cleaner I should purchase to keep my domicile tidy...
"It's a terrible thing ... living in fear."
- Roy: hunted replicant, Blade Runner
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by Anonymous User on 09:04 AM February 28th, 2004 EST (#18)
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"I would (and do) eschew marriage because it is an automatic disembowelment of my financial and legal rights as a person, and because there is nothing any female has to offer that would be worth my individual liberty."
Absolutely excellent post and I have nothing to add to it, as nothing needs to be added.
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I would never eschew marriage just because I might not get fair credit for my contributions to the domestic maintenance of the household.
I would (and do) eschew marriage because it is an automatic disembowelment of my financial and legal rights as a person, and because there is nothing any female has to offer that would be worth my individual liberty.
To me, they both amount to the same thing, and are manifestations of the same principle - women discount men in every respect and everything we do. Thus, only they are "fully human" and we are somehow sub-human, which makes exploiting us no different on the moral level than eating meat - "hey, they were born and bred for that purpose."
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Here are a few little gems from Dr. Laura’s pop analysis of the gender wars, "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" –
"The feminist double whammy of the elevation of women without men (and children without fathers) and the dismissal of men as unnecessary or even dangerous has certainly not contributed to the kind of positive disposition that women need in order to function well within a monogamous, heterosexual, committed relationship.
This grandiose self-centeredness about the value of women, paired with a virtual disdain for men, leads women to treat men badly. Too many women look at men with a sense of entitlement versus an opportunity for selflessness. Why? All of those forces taken together have given women a false sense of superiority."
"When women micromanage, their husbands give up trying to please them, and then their wives complain that their men don’t do anything for them. Wives need to look to the mirror for the typical source of that problem ... Essentially micromanaging is about controlling ...
... the problem is often getting the wife to see, to acknowledge, to accept, to realize that she is, in fact, controlling. While many women are quick to draw to aim at some extraneous word or deed of their husband’s as evidence of his being controlling, it seems that some are blinded to the reality of their own actions."
"How is it that so many women are angry with men in general yet expect to have a happy life married to one of them?"
One might propose that the female gender's generalized sense of superiority and entitlement could be considered a mental illness.
Oh, wait! It's already got a label:
What is Narcissism? (DSM-IV-TR diagnostic manual)
A pattern of traits and behaviors which signify infatuation and obsession with one's self to the exclusion of all others and the egotistic and ruthless pursuit of one's gratification, dominance and ambition.
That's a damn fine definition of FEMINISM!
"It's a terrible thing ... living in fear."
- Roy: hunted replicant, Blade Runner
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Name that pathology -
A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment.
Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.
a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation
identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self
(anorexia, bulimia)
impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).
(killing people)
recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
chronic feelings of emptiness
inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms
(patriarchy - the whole world is oub to get women)
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MCMI - Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory:
"Borderline Personality Disorder" -
"Experiencing intense moods punctuated by recurring periods of dejection and apathy and spells of anger and anxiety, borderlines are defined by a dysregulation of affect, most clearly seen in the instability and lability of their moods. Many have recurring self-mutilating and suicidal thoughts, appear overly preoccupied with securing affection, have difficulty maintaining a clear sense of identity, and display a cognitive-affective ambivalence evident in conflicting feelings of rage, love, and guilt toward others."
Hey, I think I know where these BPD's congregate! They're all wailing away over on the MS. Magazine chat boards!
"It's a terrible thing ... living in fear."
- Roy: hunted replicant, Blade Runner
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Give the man a cigar! Feminism is political BPD.
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by Anonymous User on 08:16 PM February 27th, 2004 EST (#13)
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Both men and women can be lazy, and some complaining and conflicts are an inevitable fact of cohabitation. The only general issue is whether woman have some unquestionable authority to decide what housework needs to be done and how it should be done. I say no!
Based on my observation, single men tend to spend a lot less time cleaning their apartments than single women, and men's apartments are much messier (especially bathrooms). Men and women clearly do have different preferences for housekeeping, and some kind of compromise just has to be worked out.
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My issue with this is that this board rightfully looks at the male perspective as to victimhood, and tends to overlook some advantages men may have. In most cases I fully agree with the overall consenses of this board.
Where I tend to differ is where I my own observations lead me to different conclusions. Somewhere further up someone made the observation that men do the more dangerous, more technical jobs around the house, and that because of this they(the jobs) are worth more than the safe, less mentally demanding chores a woman typically does.
I think this is misleading. Please hear me out here. Throughout history a mans greatest depressant is lethargy. Take away the challange and you have nothing. "Would you exchange a walk on part in the war for a leading role in a cage". Man's greatest strength is the ability to strive for more.
Now women have typically done jobs which were unchanging drudgery, and so have many men. Factory work and crop gathering are two of the most repetitive brainless jobs, and tend to pay the least(I have done both.) Housework falls in that catagory. It is brainless, endless, and boring as all hell. I love doing maintainance work because it is challenging. Replacing the water pump on my truck or build a shelving unit are far more interesting and gratifying than doing laundry or dishes. And I think that is why many women do not feel that doing occasional and varied repair work is the same as continually doing the same 5 jobs over and over, every day. Now I also understand that many times the repair jobs happen in incliment weather, or happen when something else is going on. It is no fun then. I think this is a MAJOR case of the grass is always greener. Women want excitement and challenge, men want ease of mind and safety, because we generally live the opposite.
Also, men get a paycheck. They can earn raises, bonuses, accomodations. Housework gets none of that. Housework get no outside recognition, only complaints if it is not done. While this is not a reason why housework is harder than working outside the home(it isn't) it is a negative associated with housework.
Now, let me say that I still feel most women have it easy. I still feel that most women should do more housework because they work less. I still feel it is insane that men make up 95% of workforce deaths. I think this article was one sided, and should have included a plan for both spouses to sit and review hours worked at work, with children, at housework, at maintainance, etc. It was extremely one-sided.
I will not, however, lump housework as easy no-brain no-stress fluff. It is boring, tedious and neverending as well as often unrewarding. If is was so simple men would have no problem just helping, and women wouldn't be asking for help because it was so simple.
As a person who has fought with the housework demon for years, I just cannot join in the lets bash the female side for the sake of it being female.
That and I have had a shitty week and am very contrary.
The Biscuit Queen
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As a person who has fought with the housework demon for years, I just cannot join in the let's bash the female side for the sake of it being female.
It's more venting than anything else, don't let it get to ya, and take some time off.
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by Anonymous User on 11:30 AM February 28th, 2004 EST (#21)
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I don't think women should have do ANY housework if they don't want to. My point is that women want to give up traditional female household duties (which is fine) BUT simultaneously want to retain traditional female household privilege ( which is NOT fine). Thus I do not believe women should retain their sacred right of residence in the home, which right they exercise daily in the family court when the husband is thrown onto the street.
If women want to throw away their traditional duties , by all means let them do so. But their traditional privileges must be thrown away also, or taken away.
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by Anonymous User on 06:24 PM February 28th, 2004 EST (#22)
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I will not, however, lump housework as easy no-brain no-stress fluff. It is boring, tedious and neverending as well as often unrewarding.
Good point that men and women should think about.
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by Anonymous User on 02:07 PM February 29th, 2004 EST (#32)
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"I will not, however, lump housework as easy no-brain no-stress fluff. It is boring, tedious and neverending as well as often unrewarding. If is was so simple men would have no problem just helping, and women wouldn't be asking for help because it was so simple."
Sure! We understand. Our alarms just went off at the condescendng tone of the piece.
Boy Genteel
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by Anonymous User on 03:45 PM February 29th, 2004 EST (#34)
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I see what you're saying jenk, aka tbq.
p. george
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I agree with you Jen. The tedium and mind-numbing aspect of housework should be discussed. Yea, I agree with a lot of the men's complaints. But aren't a lot of OUR complaints just as one sided as the article. I mean, one of the things I really respect about the men's boards has always been the objectivity and Jen has some valid points.
The article was one sided. Sure, that's a given. But Jen's "the grass is greener" point is very valid.
I think that one of the problems I see is the way younger women are being raised to think that "someone" should do the chores. But boys are not much better. Men, by and large, but not always, are not the neatnicks that women are. Not all men, not all women, but in general. Also, I think a lot of the comments here underly a sense of un-ending head-splitting NAGGING that is intolerable. Even if a woman HAS an ideal mate, they want to bitch, piss, and moan. No, Jen, probably not you (but maybe), but even MY wife, who is heaven on Earth compared to what most men have, nags the shit out of me. Now, do I do things that drive her nuts, lol, just ask her. But she does nag at me in such a way that I sometimes close the door to the room I am in, in her face, to give her a clue-by-four of: "not interested in 'communicating' or listening to her nag". She doesn't like it, but she's also gotten the hint that I need my space, that nagging doesn't equate to positive results nor cuddling, and isn't endearing in general. But, I have had to learn that sometimes she NAGS me to GET attention (she can't help herself).
I know I watch women working together and they often drive each other nuts in the same way. Not at WORK, where it's hierarchial, but in groups women, IMHO, tend to get snippy as hell when women nag on each other. Also, women, again IMHO, tend to be more concilitory to each other, while a man wants a short and sweet conversation - the best to be done with it.
I don't like the pandering in the article, and that's part of the problem. Ignoring the fact that men and women are wired differently and need to understand how to talk to each other, that some people (regardless of gender) are LAZY and UNAPPRECIATIVE, and that playing the pander and blame game often just reinforces bad behavior while solviing little.
Steven
Guerilla Gender Warfare is just Hate Speech in polite text
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"Now, let me say that I still feel most women have it easy. I still feel that most women should do more housework because they work less. I still feel it is insane that men make up 95% of workforce deaths. I think this article was one sided, and should have included a plan for both spouses to sit and review hours worked at work, with children, at housework, at maintainance, etc. It was extremely one-sided.
That and I have had a shitty week and am very contrary.
The one-sidedness was the entire point of what men here were reacting to. Those of us who haven't been lucky enough to end up with a great wife like the one Beene never stops bragging about having, have had up to 40 years of listening to this kind of one-sided bitching out of women and some of us are so sick of it that it has exactly the opposite effect from what I am assuming women want: it makes us less willing to listen to their issues rather than more willing.
Articles like these do nothing but pour gasoline on the flames of the gender war. It is not possible to take a few anecdotes and make any meaningful generalizations about any specific relationship. When faced with such one sided treatment, men don't have a lot of choice but take an equally one-sided position unless they are willing to let women just walk all over them and wear them down into nothingness with their constant bitching and complaining - whether justified or not.
Most women just don't get how destructive articles like this are toward women. People in stable long-term relationships no doubt have offsetting positive experiences to balance this out. But outsiders see women as nothing but black holes or bottomless pits into which everything that is poured simply disappears and the demand just grows greater.
On the list of reasons I have never married, listening to women talk about their husbands or boyfriends is definitely in the top 5. For every story you can tell like the one about your friend, I can counter with one about a useless slug of a woman who DOESN'T really keep house, or even cook because she just buys pre-packaged food, while her husband puts in 10-12 hour days on an assembly line which is every bit as mind numbing as housework, but still bitches just as much about how hard her life is as any woman with real reasons.
Up to now, one of the things I have respected most about you has been your ability to stifle the reflex to rise to the defense of womanhood which turns so many web discussions into verbal fistfights. Dealing with an absolutely anti-male biased media and legal system, forums like this are about the only venue men have to get their side of the story heard. In general, I find them a great deal more fair that the women's boards, and on those I see an obvious lack of women speaking out for men in any way.
In reality, it should be viewed as a kindness to try to clue women in to why men are getting so damned sick of them and their bitching.
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by Anonymous User on 07:21 PM February 28th, 2004 EST (#23)
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I have patiently been holding my comments as I read the article and the posts to it. I know that housework is a female pet peeve. I've been married twice and never had any major complaints from either about cleanliness (I was a good male slave -husband). I know too that housework is just one more issue that females are fanatically unreasonable about.
I'm divorced now, and happily so. I used to keep a very neat house, but as I've gotten older and dealt psychologically with the terrorism of having been scammed by a couple of wives I now do no housework at all, practically. I think it is sort of a subconscious insurance policy, or defense mechanism, I have given myself to protect me from ever having another one of those monsters in my life.
I sneeze a lot, but curiously I have a deep inner peace knowing that any woman who walked into my house would instantly go into seizures just from the site of the clutter. I have peace knowing I will never be threatened by all the legal nightmares, nagging, and other abuse of male terrors that so often go along with having a wife.
Yours Truly (on a higher plane),
Ray
P.S. The landscape looks great. I really enjoy doing that.
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If all else were equal it might be that women have something to moan about. The one sided ness of it suggests that there is no consideration that their might be women who aren't pulling their weight in the home or out of it. When we live in a world where work can be re-defined to distort how much men and women do. Germaine Greer jumped on that bandwagon when in "the Whole Woman" she subscribed to the notion of women as "working" when they are commuting to work, when they are "working" out in the gym and when are putting make-up on - "working" on themselves. Men it appears only work when they are actually at work, no re-definition of work for them, and then Germaine Greer suggests that they are chatting round the coffee machine while women are busy working. How us men ever managed to do anything when all the women were at home, I don't know.
To my mind this article would carry more weight if as many women were dying as men in the coalition forces in Iraq. Until that time this article is just more "women are victims" propaganda.
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by Anonymous User on 11:12 AM February 29th, 2004 EST (#28)
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"The one sided ness of it suggests that there is no consideration that their might be women who aren't pulling their weight in the home or out of it. When we live in a world where work can be re-defined to distort how much men and women do."
It is a fraud and completely unfair to look just at a segment of all work done and not the total amount of work that each sex does. The total foot pounds of work that men and women do should be included.
If this were done the inequity would be astouding. The women making this arguement would look like the lazy liars and frauds they truly are. Housework is tedious, pain staking work, but so is all the work that men do. It is unfair to expect men to do everything they do, then do 1/2 the housework too. I am sick and tired of hearing this arguement from feminists who are too prejudiced to look at any differences between men and women objectively.
Sincerely, Ray
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The interesting perspectives posted in this thread about who does what and whether male/female definitions of "work" are fair or biased in the domestic arena overlook one crucial reality --
The radical feminists won this round by politicizing the household as yet another tedious battlefront for fomenting antagonism between the sexes.
Used to be both men and women could respose in their shared domiciles and somehow manage to avoid the ever-creeping tentacles of feminist Thought Control.
No longer...
Now, the home offers no sanctuary from the vileness and antagonism that feminism always imposes when people are too stupid to repudiate it and reject its deformities.
Wonder if hanging up some nice fresh garlic over the threshold of my home would keep these vampires at bay?
"It's a terrible thing ... living in fear."
- Roy: hunted replicant, Blade Runner
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by Anonymous User on 11:14 AM March 2nd, 2004 EST (#45)
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"The radical feminists won this round by politicizing the household as yet another tedious battlefront for fomenting antagonism between the sexes."
If there's any place the femi-bullies haven't brought their agenda you can bet they have it on their planning boards. True to the nature of these power and control bullies, they will not be content until they have infected every segment of society with their cancerous hatred of men.
Ray
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Now, the home offers no sanctuary from the vileness and antagonism that feminism always imposes when people are too stupid to repudiate it and reject its deformities.
It does if you live alone or with a male roomate who splits the bills.
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(I hit the wrong button on the previous post and submitted it when I meant to preview)
The radical feminists won this round by politicizing the household as yet another tedious battlefront for fomenting antagonism between the sexes.
The radical feminists have won every round so far. All along they have made it very clear that their intention was to make the political personal and the personal political. Women didn't have to go along with it, but they did. They have destroyed personal relationships with the concept that no matter how good they may have it with a particular man, somewhere in the world some woman is suffering, and even if there weren't, enough woman have suffered in the past that they need to punish their husbands for.
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Gentlemen the feminists have won nothing because WE are still here.
"All you fascists bound to lose" - Woody Guthrie
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by Anonymous User on 11:18 PM February 28th, 2004 EST (#25)
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A friend sent this to me, and it just struck as some good advice for dissatisfied women who are not satisfied with their husbands and feel the need to make work lists for them.
Ray
==================================================
Excerpt from Maria Shriver's book, Ten Things I Wished I Had Known-Before I Went Out Into The Real World (Warner Books 2002), Chapter 8- "Marriage Is A Hell Of A Lot Of Hard Work, pp.88-89:
"On thing that can kill a marriage right after the honeymoon is the Prince(ss) Charming Delusion. ... That's expecting your partner to do it all for you:make you happy, fix you, fulfill you, complete you, define you, make your life for you, make your life meaningful for you. Giant mistake. I was lucky and learned that before we got married. After a while together, my future husband said to me, 'Don't expect or rely on me to make you happy.' Well, I thought, isn't his grasp of the English language adorable. He doesn't realize what he is saying. Who else is supposed to make me happy, if not him? But he was adamant. 'You must be happy with yourself first. Be happy with your life separate from what the other person brings to the table.' This was serious. He told me he'd be the icing on the cake, but that I shouldn't expect him to be the whole dessert. Now that definitely wouldn't make a good lyric for a romantic love song, but I knew he was right." (Emphasis added.)
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A number of posts have already dealt with what is clearly the central issue,that of control.I reject the notion that women have the right to feel slighted or disrespected when the men in their lives dont meet the standard that they have imposed.As a man my view of what needs to get done is done and if your view as a women is differant then it is up to you to make it happen.To demand that others view the world as you do and alter their behaviour to meet your view and the standards you have set is the height of immaturity and selfishness.And that could stand as the very definition of feminism.
"All you fascists bound to lose" - Woody Guthrie
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