|
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
|
 |
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Monday January 12, @04:12PM EST (#1)
|
|
|
|
|
NCFM-LA sent this last night to each of the five people on Glenn's list, and they have already responded as follows:
From: "Sekuler, Eliot" eliot.sekuler@unistudios.com>
To: 'Marc Angelucci'
Subject: RE: Universal's Hateful, Anti-Boy T-Shirts Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004
10:47:01 -0800
Dapy's, a store operated by our company, offers various lines of popular
apparel. It has recently come to Senior management's attention that we have
inadvertently offered some items from one of these lines that contain
offensive messages.
The t-shirts have been taken off the store's shelves immediately and will
no longer be sold at Dapy's or at any other location owned by our company.Our
company does not condone any messages of intolerance to any group within
our society and we regret having allowed this incident to occur.
Sincerely,
Eliot Sekuler,
Vice President, Public Relations, Universal Studios Hollywood
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Marc Angelucci [mailto:marcangelucci@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 10:52 PM
>To: eliot.sekuler@unistudios.com
>Cc: angelucci2000@alumni.law.ucla.edu
>Subject: Universal's Hateful, Anti-Boy T-Shirts
>
>
>Eliot Sekuler
>Vice President of Public Relations
>Universal Studios
>
>Dear Eliot,
>
>I am the president of the National Coalition of Free Men, Los Angeles. We
>are a non-profit organization that looks at how sex discrimination affects
>men and boys. We use demonstrations, media, letter-writing, education and
>other mechanisms to address these issues.
>
>We heard on the radio last night that Dapy, which is apparently owned by
>Universal Studies, sells the hateful t-shirts such as "boys are stupid,
>throw rocks at them" which are very degrading to boys and advocate violence
>against children. I saw a display of this "pre-teen center" with the
>t-shirts on the internet. Would you sell shirts that said "girls are
>stupid, rape them"? Many of these boys will grow up to belong to a large
>but neglected class of domestic violence victims - male victims - that are
>the least likely to seek help due to this very type of ridicule that they
>are subjected to as they grow up.
>
>For obvious reasons we feel these shirts are extremely bigotted and hurtful
>to our sons as well as to our daughters who are subjected to them. We
>politely ask that you remove these hateful anti-boy shirts from your store.
>
> Please get back to us about this. Thank you.
>
>Sincerely,
>Marc Angelucci, Esq.
>President
>National Coalition of Free Men, Los Angeles
>www.ncfmla.org
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Monday January 12, @06:49PM EST (#4)
|
|
|
|
|
Marc:
Wow! That's great news. I'm truly impressed by how fast these merchants see the error of their ways, when the simple truth is pointed out to them.
IF ONLY TAXPAYER FUNDED WOMEN'S STUDIES PROGRAMS ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, TAXPAYER FUNDED DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SHELTERS, ETC. WHERE AS ACCOUNTABLE AS THESE PROFIT MOTIVATED MERCHANTS.
Is it too late to run Glenn Sacks for President?
Ray
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Monday January 12, @07:26PM EST (#7)
|
|
|
|
|
Thank you, Glenn Sacks, Marc Angelucci, and everyone else who worked this issues.
Males are good and beautifully made. Say it to yourself, proclaim it from the rooftops!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Glenn & Marc,
My heartiest congratulations and endless thanks for your efforts and your wonderful success in putting an end to these hateful t-shirts and letting 'David & Goliath' know that enough IS enough!
You guys have become so successful and are moving SO fast, that this last round was over before I even knew it was starting! I just signed on tonight, ready for "Round 3", and ready to send out my e-mail to the next retailer, but you guys had already delivered a knockout punch.
Damn, I'm sorry that I never got the chance to email my complaint, but I can't tell you how much the pleasure of seeing yet another victory has made my day!
Keep up the great work!
Stan Gaver
President, NCFM-DC
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Monday January 12, @09:35PM EST (#11)
|
|
|
|
|
Glenn deserves most of the praise but thank you and thanks to all others who helped.
It's also nice to have another NCFM chapter leader here on my favorite site, Stan!
Marc
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Friday January 16, @10:24PM EST (#93)
|
|
|
|
|
It seems the key is focussed attack. A boycott or other protest against several stores simultaneously is ineffective. Targetting one retail outlet at a time is evidently very effective.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Monday January 12, @06:23PM EST (#3)
|
|
|
|
|
Someday we can place them into a museum, as an example of today's man-hating environment.
Sometime in the future (I hope) people will have trouble believing that this kind of merchandise existed. But if you have the shirt, you can prove it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Monday January 12, @07:11PM EST (#5)
|
|
|
|
|
"Our company does not condone any messages of intolerance to any group within our society and we regret having allowed this incident to occur."
=================================================
This is a great day for men! We have been officially recognized by no less than a major Hollywood Entertainment business as a group that should not be treated intolerantly. I am absolutely elated. If only we could get similar letters from Hollywood television producers and film makers.
Thanks primarily to Glenn Sacks, Hollywood, this evening, is a slightly less SEXIST, HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT AGAINST MEN!
Sincerely, Ray
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Tuesday January 13, @12:19AM EST (#22)
|
|
|
|
|
I hope some of those man-haters who hold elected office hear about this.
Oh my goodness, there are so many voters out there who care about men's rights, that they can stage an effective boycott. Wow!
What will they think of next?
Glenn Sacks for President indeed!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"We Came, We Saw, We Kicked it's ASS!!"
- Bill Murray, Ghostbusters
-nuff said
Steven
Guerilla Gender Warfare is just Hate Speech in polite text
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Absolutely!!! And, I really hope that is Glen's goal, even if unstated. I really hope he does not stop until there are no more major retailers left carrying this line. The retailers are rolling over so quickly, that maybe all he will have to do is announce the next target and they will cave.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Perhaps we should send a copy of these threads to Todd Goldman, CEO of David & Goliath. He's the one who has the "blow it out your ass" attitude when people question him about the messages on his shirts.
"Existence exists. A is A." -Ayn Rand
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
actually, I don't want anything to tip the guy off until his orders fall to zero and he is left with tons of inventory he can't sell.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Wednesday January 14, @07:44PM EST (#70)
|
|
|
|
|
Damn straight,that will teach him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Saturday January 31, @12:23AM EST (#94)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Monday January 12, @11:04PM EST (#17)
|
|
|
|
|
I first saw the Boys are Stupid Throw Rocks at Them shirts about a year ago in a Gadzooks store. Gadzooks is a major retailer of girls clothes east of the Rockies. I have not had time to check and see if they still sell them because this thing is moving so fast!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Apparently, Gadzooks decision to go "all girl" hasn't worked out all that well for them.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/031218/retail_gadzooks_1.h tml
"Gadzooks struggling to stay in business
Thursday December 18, 3:49 pm ET
NEW YORK, Dec 18 (Reuters) - Teen clothing retailer Gadzooks Inc. (NasdaqNM:GADZ - News) is discounting aggressively in an effort to stay in business, and a J.P. Morgan analyst says the chain's failure would benefit other retailers catering to teens.
Gadzooks in July quit selling men's clothes and converted to an all-female strategy. In the subsequent quarter, sales at stores open at least a year fell 31.4 percent.
Ah, it really warms the soul to see stupidity bite the stupid.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Monday January 12, @11:58PM EST (#20)
|
|
|
|
|
"...quit selling men's clothes... In the subsequent quarter, sales at stores open at least a year fell 31.4 percent."
GADZOOKS!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
AND IT GETS BETTER -
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=GADZ&t=1y
Their stock, which sold for $8.00 in August, about the time they started this new "strategy", closed today at $1.35, and has been as low as 98 cents.
As they say where I grew up "Stupid is SUPPPOSED to hurt."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Monday January 12, @11:44PM EST (#19)
|
|
|
|
|
I seem to recall from a previous thread that the creator and marketer of this T-shirt line brags that he's a millionaire, and markets these misandric shirts in over 2000 outlets.
I know that one of the targeted stores had 32 outlets so perhaps that 2000 number will come down faster if we can find which retailers have the most stores in their chains.
Either way, I've got nothing better to do the rest of my life.
If any person thinks they can spread this kind of sexist hatred against males with cavalier nonchalance, perhaps he should reconsider. He should reconsider how strongly males today feel about people who want to add insults onto the mountain of injuries they have already endured.
Sincerely, Ray
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Looks like Yahoo is still a big retailer working with this company. They're selling quite a bit more than T-shirts too. Imagine the lost revenue if they drop the line entirely?
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/weddingfairy/davidgoli ath.html
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/weddingfairy/boarestta brs.html
yes indeed, has anyone mentioned this to Glen?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Tuesday January 13, @01:48AM EST (#27)
|
|
|
|
|
Someone just did, thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
At the same time, men and boys are watching far less nasty, anti-male television.
Kill your television.
http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/
An activism project I suggested over on MND before it got burned down to get rid of the wharf rats, was to make July 4, 2004 - International Kill Your Televison Day.
Go buy an old dirtball TV at some garage sale, and next "Independence Day" declare your independence from the misandrist crap by shooting it, beating it to smithereens with a baseball bat, blow it up with fireworks, or any other splashy means to get across that we are sick of it.
The people with the money may be pretty thick, but I think that is a message no one could miss.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Exactly, and make a TV event out of it!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
IMO the days of network TV are numbered... I can't remember the last time I watched network programming.
Jen and I would already have cancelled our cable subscription if it wasn't necessary to get broadband internet access.
Dave K - A Radical Moderate
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"At the same time, men and boys are watching far less nasty, anti-male television."
Has everyone read the letter I had published in THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER on this topic?
bg
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"No, can you post a link?"
Yuppers, Jen. Or, actually, I'll just reprint it here. From THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER, December 8:
Demeaning image
Re: "TV Drop-offs," Nov. 23:
Jonathan Storm speculated that fewer young males are watching network television because of cable programming and the Internet.
I have another possible explanation. I think it's because of how they are commonly represented on TV. It seems that the vast majority of situation comedies portray men as coarse, irresponsible, morally bankrupt, one-dimensional imbeciles who care about nothing except beer, baseball and boobs.
It's no longer considered OK to suggest that women are incompetent in automobile maintenance and carpentry, and I understand why. But any sitcom husband asked to cook, clean, and mind the children for a few hours will burn himself making toast, mix reds with whites in the washing machine, and be forced to drive one of the kids to the hospital due to his parental negligence.
The dramas aren't much better. Men are described as the violent gender, and yet female violence against males is depicted as morally acceptable, humorous, romantic, and/or even sexually stimulating.
Perhaps when we see insulting programming decrease, the networks will see their numbers increase.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Whining about 'anti-boy hate speech' printed on t-shirts just strikes as wrong. Not 'wrong' in the political sense, but wrong in the GUT sense.
It just strikes me as a 'pussy' point of view. Does that make sense to anyone? Is that an offensive point of view? I think that being 'offended' in general is a pussy point of view.
What's a 'pussy' point of view? It's when WE think like THEM.
If 'mens activism' means being a bunch of whining pussy's, then count me out. Might as well be a feminist!
I guess I'd rather live in a society in which I could wear a 'Girls Suck' t-shirt if I wanted to, but probably wouldn't simply because I'd feel stupid doing so.
Sharing a bunch of hi-5's over using Fem tactics to win a 'victory' for 'men's rights' just doesn't seem right somehow. It's a matter of honor, perhaps, but not rights.
Living with honor is, to me, much more important than securing new rights. Honor, to me, is doing The Right Thing, as I see it, or perhaps as told to see it by a Respected Authority, or perhaps as I have AGREED to see it, without being FORCED to do it by a NEW LAW.
Inasmuch as the letter campaign against the store encouraged them to behave honorably, I applaud the effort.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Whining about 'anti-boy hate speech' printed on t-shirts just strikes as wrong. Not 'wrong' in the political sense, but wrong in the GUT sense.
You really don't get it, do you dude?
Let me put it another way -
If you get up into my face with a sign that says (as some of these shirts literally do) "You suck, BIG TIME", depending on my mood, I may decide to "whine" you out of my face with my fist and trip to the emergency room for you.
It's a guy thing, you wouldn't understand.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Get what? Some new 'male' version of Political Correctness?
As for the trip to the emergency room, that's a little more like it! I can respect that in a very concrete way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
::Whining about 'anti-boy hate speech' printed on t-shirts just strikes as wrong. Not 'wrong' in the political sense, but wrong in the GUT sense.
It just strikes me as a 'pussy' point of view. Does that make sense to anyone? Is that an offensive point of view? I think that being 'offended' in general is a pussy point of view.::
Don't you see? The people who malign men and boys (while protesting when lesser things are said about women and girls) are COUNTING on men having the attitude you have. They're COUNTING on men not sticking up for themselves. The attitude is, "Well, they're not allowed to say such things about/do such things to us, because we'll raise holy hell. But it's not masculine to complain, so we can do/say whatever we want, and if they complain we'll call them wimps or pu-----."
::I guess I'd rather live in a society in which I could wear a 'Girls Suck' t-shirt if I wanted to, but probably wouldn't simply because I'd feel stupid doing so.::
And you'd also be pilloried, either figuratively and/or literally. That's the point: I'd hate "girls suck" shirts just as much (as I am egalitarian), but they would NEVER have them, while "boys suck" and similar messages have gone unchecked for far too long. It's a double standard, and, like I said, their thinking is that men will be too stoic/chivalrous/embarrassed to stand up for their own gender.
::Sharing a bunch of hi-5's over using Fem tactics to win a 'victory' for 'men's rights' just doesn't seem right somehow. It's a matter of honor, perhaps, but not rights.
Living with honor is, to me, much more important than securing new rights.::
And remaining silent while you see girls wearing shirts that demean and advocate violence against fellow children? Where is the honor in that?
bg
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Tuesday January 13, @03:34PM EST (#34)
|
|
|
|
|
I agree. If our culture allowed shirts saying the same thing about girls, then there wouldn't be the same need to protest even though I don't see much value in those types of message to begin with. But the double standard needs to be confronted, as well as the chivalrous, I-won't complain-I-have-honor attitude that stops men from speaking out and ultimately, in the bigger picture, helps horrible laws and public policies against males to pass without any opposition while we ignore our own rights and equal treatment. In addition to the difference this makes in many people's lives just in terms of not having to be subjected to the double standards of misandrous male-bashing, this victory has enormous symbolic value and sends a needed message that men are starting to overcome their self-defeating chivalry and are speaking out.
Marc
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Tuesday January 13, @06:50PM EST (#36)
|
|
|
|
|
I think recent victories are perhaps analagous to successful partisan raids in occupied Russia. We will have to wait some time for our Stalingrad victories to occur, but they will come. There have also been some positive developments in Ireland, to wit:
1. Irish Justice Minister to bring in law to ensure proceedings of family courts are recorded. Apparently, no stenographer is present in these courts at the moment.
2. European Union to bring in laws to abolish discrimination against male drivers ( but bizarrely, Irish Government have said they will oppose this).
3. Irish Equality Authority have declared it illegal for night clubs to offer free admission to female clientele if males not given free admission.
4. At the end of December, Mary Cleary ( see Amen website) was given air time on Irelands main current affairs programme. First time I have seen her on television. Her interest is Domestic Violence against men and she argued her case effectively.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Don't you see? The people who malign men and boys (while protesting when lesser things are said about women and girls) are COUNTING on men having the attitude you have.
I thought of that and must admit it's a very strong arguing point. I guess I just expect women and feminized men to whine, complain and hold double standards for everything, and I prefer not to play by their rules. While I may win in the short term, the rules themselves get strengthened in the long term. Other than that, I can't very well defend at this point the powerful observation you've put forth.
And remaining silent while you see girls wearing shirts that demean and advocate violence against fellow children? Where is the honor in that?
Who said anything about remaining silent? I'd speak my mind freely at any point I chose, if I felt that the dynamics of a given situation where truly endangering children. In this case, I don't. I think the shirts are a very clumsy attempt at a sort of dark humor that is more popular these days. Nothing more, nothing less.
I've gotten belly laughs over similar shirts 'advocating' drug abuse or the mutilation of small animals. I don't advocate either of those activities in real life, but in moderately skillful hands such 'taboos' can be played with to very humorous effect. As I said, the shirts in question are reaching for this in a very clumsy fashion. Believing that they truly 'advocate' the acts in question is, in my opinion, kind of childish.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think the shirts are a very clumsy attempt at a sort of dark humor that is more popular these days. Nothing more, nothing less.
I've gotten belly laughs over similar shirts 'advocating' drug abuse or the mutilation of small animals. I don't advocate either of those activities in real life, but in moderately skillful hands such 'taboos' can be played with to very humorous effect. As I said, the shirts in question are reaching for this in a very clumsy fashion. Believing that they truly 'advocate' the acts in question is, in my opinion, kind of childish.
Ok, so maybe you aren't a troll.
It's mostly a matter of stance and orientation. In medieval Japan, the aristocracy, which were the Samuri, were allowed by law to kill any commoner who offended them - on the spot. Star Trek fans could probably relate to someone going up to a Klingon with a t-shirt that said "Klingons suck". Try walking into a biker bar sometime and yelling "all bikers have short dicks."
You aren't going to get many laughs.
The fact that we are using "their weapons" against them simply indicates that we are using whatever is at hand - outrage and the threat of hurting them economically.
The goal is to make an example of this Goldman guy, and run him into bankruptcy - not just get 1 or 2 stores to stop carrying his shit. When you are facing a bully, the best way to deal with it is pound him into the ground - that makes everyone else afraid of YOU. Otherwise, you will have to fight that same battle every day of your life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Kids don't understand the type of dark subtle humor you are talking about. These t-shirts have the real potential to cause the actions printed apon them. Look at WWF wrestling. There have been young children who have killed their siblings because they saw The Rock pile drive an opponant and tried to do it to his little brother. Kids do not generalize well. They cannot see one thing and then think logically that it would be inappropriate in another place (another dog training truth.)How many moms are going to explain to their daughters "you can't really hit boys with {poop, rocks, garbage, etc}" and even so, how many daughters will listen.
So beyond the fact that these t-shirts are bigotry in it's rawest form, they are also a danger to young children due to lack of common sense and parental involvement.
The Biscuit Queen
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
SK,
The 'pussy' terminology doesn't seem to work well for you. I'd rethink using it if I were you.
It just strikes me as a 'pussy' point of view. Does that make sense to anyone? Is that an offensive point of view? I think that being 'offended' in general is a pussy point of view.
Stilted. Tentative ... and the punctuation is almost surreal. It's like you're asking permission to use the word, which leads me to wonder if you've given YOURSELF permission to use it.
Inasmuch as the letter campaign against the store encouraged them to behave honorably, I applaud the effort.
Ahhhh! Now this is much better. It flows. THIS is your authentic voice. Stick with it.
Larry
The source of all power is the ability to say "No."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think it works very well. When I was a young boy growing up, a 'pussy' was the very worst thing you could be called. In todays feminized environment, I think that the 'pussy' moniker can be both powerful and accurate, in describing men behaving like women.
I realize that's it's an almost agrivatingly 'bad' word, and I don't mean to toss it around for that reason alone, but to say that it somehow doesn't work for me, well, I disagree.
As for the stilted punctuation, it's perfectly valid. Open any best-seller on the shelf today and you'll see that sentenses in essays or fiction do not always follow the rules of 'correct' grammar. That's NOT to say that I think my writing is as effective as that of a successful published author by any means.
I think what you're doing here is simply harping (as in 'harpie') on the technical aspects of my writing as an expression of disdain for its content.
Isn't that just like a woman?
; )
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think what you're doing here is simply harping (as in 'harpie') on the technical aspects of my writing as an expression of disdain for its content.
Well, no. I was acting out of curiosity. I was about 85% sure you were a sincere guy trying out a term that hadn't passed your lips since junior high and you'd probably disdained the word even then. However, there was a small chance that the writer of that post was one of the bizarre, FemBorg trolls we get here who was awkwardly using the word with the idea that it would establish her masculine bona fides.
I commented on the dissonance just to see your response.
Others responded to the content of your post, as I knew they would. It appears from your replies to them that attitudes have been explained, misperceptions cleared up and you found out what you needed to know.
So, are you ready to participate in the next campaign to get these T-shirts off the shelves of another retailer? All it takes is a phone call, an email or both.
Larry
The source of all power is the ability to say "No."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Me thinks skipkent needs to look up sarcasm in the dictionary. The Biscuit Queen
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks for the kind response, and sorry for the childish sniping in my last response (although I still think it was at least a little funny ; ).
I can't say as I am indeed ready to participate in the campaign you mention, but I am certainly ready to look at it in a new light. I honestly haven't seen the shirts referred to, and it's not yet clear to me as to whether they are indeed marketed at young children or teenagers and twenty-somethings.
Someone elsewhere mentioned that kids don't get the sort of dark humor implied, and I agree. On the other hand, there are similar shirts sold elsewhere such as the cute-but-creepy 'Emily' series, which I have always gotten a chuckle out of but which is clearly targeting teenagers or above.
If they are indeed being marketed at toddlers and grade-schoolers, well...let the proverbial bitch slapping begin!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
www.davidandgoliathtees.com
click on 'shop here', then 'boys are smelly'.
There are a few that I find funny (the I walk around in my underwear-one reminds me of my youngest) however the majority are frightening, and are marketed for the 8-14 crowd.
Look , then decide. The Biscuit Queen
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I looked them over and must say it's very sad. The attempts at humor reflect very clearly the utter vacuousness of the folks who dreamed them up, in my opinion. Are these things appearing on retail shelves, or just the Internet?
In either case, I really feel, for now, that the burden and focus should be more on the people who buy them than on the idiots who dream them up. This would include retailers.
The Internet has made it very easy to 'market' such things at almost no cost (print on demand), and I while I decry the lame attempts at 'cutting edge humor' or what-have-you, I must nonetheless defend their right to bad taste.
It's an interesting call, though, and I'm not yet sold either way. The poop and rock tossing could very likely be seen as abusive.
The one's that bother me more, sadly, are the ones like 'boys lie, make them cry' or 'jack sat in the back of the bus because he wanted to, regardless if the bullys made him', both of which reek of a 'wimps' idea of 'cutting edge humor' which is really nothing more than an attempt to capitalize on his own self-hatred.
I'd be interested to know if a man or woman is behind the outfit. I'll bet almost anything it's a guy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There's a mildly interesting discussion elsewhere concerning the products (indicating very clearly that they do indeed appear in the 'trendy punk boutiques' that specialize in 'cutting edge' garb. Go to Google Groups and search on the following:
davidandgoliath throw rocks
Also, here's their ip info, from NetworkSolutions, which doesn't give a clue as to the gender, unfortunately:
Registrant:
DAVID & GOLIATH, INC. (DAVIDANDGOLIATHTEES-DOM)
1230 S MYRTLE AVE STE 401
CLEARWATER, FL 33756-3457
US
Domain Name: DAVIDANDGOLIATHTEES.COM
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
DAVID & GOLIATH, INC. (DG1133-ORG) dgoliath@tampabay.rr.com
1230 S MYRTLE AVE STE 401
CLEARWATER, FL 33756-3457
US
727 462 6205 fax: 727 462 6911
Record expires on 23-Mar-2013.
Record created on 23-Mar-2000.
Database last updated on 15-Jan-2004 17:14:15 EST.
Domain servers in listed order:
NS0.WHITETEC.COM 66.13.125.162
NS1.WHITETEC.COM 66.13.125.163
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks for the kind response, and sorry for the childish sniping in my last response (although I still think it was at least a little funny ; ).
No worries. In one sense, your initial post was a test of the members of this forum to see what they were made of. I figure one good test deserves another. :-)
I can't say as I am indeed ready to participate in the campaign you mention, but I am certainly ready to look at it in a new light.
Fair enough. Your choice.
Larry
The source of all power is the ability to say "No."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Wednesday January 14, @02:48AM EST (#38)
|
|
|
|
|
"It just strikes me as a 'pussy' point of view. Does that make sense to anyone? Is that an offensive point of view? I think that being 'offended' in general is a pussy point of view."
Dear SkipKent:
Get used to seeing this kind of change. Things are changing, and I for one don't really care to go on "taking it like a man," if that means continuing to be exploited by the same old rip offs established by the past 30 years of militant feminism. If you are not aware of what is most effective in getting males equal justice under law, perhaps you should just watch for now.
I'm sure men's activists don't have all the answers, but we are working hard within the legal structure that our society yet provides, and I think that being intelligent in striving for improvements for males is not being "pussy" as you say. In fact, I consider that opinion rather unenlightened, given the fact that militant feminist have been using the vehicle of law to batter and rob men for the past 30 years. When men work intelligently to improve their own lot and do it legally, I hardly consider them to be "a bunch of whining pussy's who might as well be feminist." That strikes me as a rather unperceptive insight, but you must believe it, since you then add, "then count me out?" Don't look now, but you've never been in, but there is room for you.
We're just ordinary people working to create an environment where all people can live and have equal justice and equal protection under law. It was good enough for our "founding fathers" and I certainly don't consider them to be all those expletives you mention.
You mention your perception of honor, and as to that I say, "There is certainly no honor in vain ideals of chivalry, that merely enslave men by their shortsightedness, while only being disrespected by most women today. Likewise, there is no shame in bringing about positive change through intelligently planned increments that legally assert the rights of all males. Hang in there, there's a long road ahead of us.
Sincerely, Ray
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ray,
Thanks for a thoughtful response. You lost me with the bit about my somehow leveling expletives at our Founding Fathers, but have otherwise given me much to think about. I respect the Founding Fathers of this country of ours a great deal and wish to preserve what they won for us as much as anyone.
If I have truly slighted the principles they stood for, then I certainly need to look at that more closely. Aside from using a naughty word, I'm not sure that I have. I believe there was plenty of name-calling in their day as well, in all levels of society and discourse.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
As for honor, I think less in terms of chivalry, and more in terms of self-respect. With self-respect, it doesn't really matter how long the road is, or whether we 'get there' at all, in my opinion.
That said, I think that chivalry has gotten a bum rap as of late. To me, it is chivalrous, to some degree, to maintain a degree of spiritual and emotional resilience and humor in the face of the present climate of somewhat militant, sytematic feminism. I see 'empowered' women suffering at least as much as I, despite their insistence that "It's good for them".
In sickness and in health...
Cheers,
-SKent
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Wednesday January 14, @03:46AM EST (#39)
|
|
|
|
|
Men have always been armored only to the front, as they expected attacks only from outsiders and other men who would attack them directly. They do not expect or have tactics to deal with a concerted attack from the rear. If an isolated, individual woman were to stab at him, giving him a shallow cut on the back, he can afford to shrug it off, as not much damage was done and his focus is to the front.
What happens though, when there is a prolonged attack from the back, from those he is working to protect? When there is not one, or a few wounds, but attacks from women coming from all directions? All of the small wounds he could shrug off before are now adding up to a “death of a thousand cuts.” This is where men are now. Finally forced to turn around (yes, against their natural inclination) to protect themselves from those they never thought of as their enemies. The very women they fought to protect.
Every cut taken in isolation can be taken stoically. A prolonged concerted series of them cannot be. That is why men need to finally find how to protect themselves from attacks from behind, even if this goes against their nature and inclination.
Incidentally, the fact that men are not naturally inclined to join together to protect or forward the interests of *men as a group* puts the lie to the feminist idea of "The Patriarchy,” which by their definition, does just that. If men really had set up society to benefit men as a group, then men would have no problem at all finding support for men’s issues. What the evidence seems to suggest instead is that men are expected to work for the interests of society as a whole and put women and children’s interests before men’s.
As it is men’s traditional role to be the protectors, not the protected, men calling for help are seen as weak and whiney. But as I have pointed out, this attitude only works when attacks come from the front, not the rear. When men are under concerted attack from women, a man’s natural inclination to ignore his own needs is no longer functional; not only because *he* is under attack and being hurt, but because the attacks are harming his children and the functioning of society as a whole. It takes a different attitude and set of tactics to protect society from an attack by women from within. In this situation, the attacks should no longer be ignored.
--Kenshin--
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Wednesday January 14, @10:57AM EST (#43)
|
|
|
|
|
"Incidentally, the fact that men are not naturally inclined to join together to protect or forward the interests of *men as a group* puts the lie to the feminist idea of "The Patriarchy,” which by their definition, does just that. If men really had set up society to benefit men as a group, then men would have no problem at all finding support for men’s issues.
=================================================
That insight is nothing short of brilliant. After several years in the men's movement I can tell you that , getting men to join, getting men to work together, getting men to admit they are injured is like "herding cats." Part of the problem is that those men who have become "aware" are so traumatized and broken that they are literally disempowered of finances, personal support, and emotional well being. They are the walking wounded of the men's movement and make up the majority of it.
One of the things that has offended me most about Women's Studies has been the myth (the lie) called ,b>"The Privileged Patriarchy." My Dad only had a 7th grade education, and worked manual labor until his dying day in his 80's. Too have such insult heaped on him by psychotic, lying bigots who are intent on the destruction of innocent men is more than I could bear so after finding NCFMLA along came the signs, the T-shirts, the bumper stickers, etc. Now along comes a friend I know and he says we should market your T-shirts. As much as I like to get the word out I have very mixed feelings about selling them. The bottom line is they are expensive to make, hence they are not cheap to sell. You be the judge. Here they are.
http://www.cafeshops.com/mensbiz
In light of our discussion I recommend clicking on the section called "Privileged Patriarchs" as a begining.
Be assured a significant percentage of any profits are going straight back into the men's movement. I have a tough act to follow. Pop only had a 7th grade education, but he was a Dad who believed in living in such a way as to honor his parents. I still like the idea, and considering the disrespect men have been getting I just thought I'd start by trying to honor my Partriarchy.
Sincerely, Ray
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Wednesday January 14, @07:04PM EST (#67)
|
|
|
|
|
Ray,
Forgot to tell you the other day.... I went to the local pub to visit some friends and work the "California is a Hostile Sexist Environment Towards Men" shirt.
Well this isn't the first time that I've worn the tee there of course, but it was the first time that I had females attacking me without any cause. During the course of the day I had forgotten that I was even wearing the tee. For that reason, I was caught off guard when out of the blue I started getting unprovoked attacks from….wymen!
One female started trying to make false allegations of sexual assault. Thank God the other female across the same table came to my defense and shut her up!
Another female started trying to get the other men pissed off at me and have them attack me with no provocation.
Yet another female kept trying to convince me that she was fair-minded and that she treated her x fairly in the divorce. Clearly, she had massive guilt.
I JUST LUV your tees! They are great, and I believe they are starting to draw attention. As they spread I guarantee that it will piss of the male hating feminist. That is what we want. When they get pissed off they go crazy and start fighting among themselves.
So yes! Market them. You have my vote!
Warble
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
heheh, I wore the "Prison and the grave are not men's shelters" and only got one comment, from a girl, which was "oh wow." Which I wasn't sure how to intrepret. Oh well! they is cool shirts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ray,
Sincerely, do market them. And make a profit. You're fulfilling a need and we all know what you would do with the money anyway. :-)
I've been meaning to mention a t-shirt idea to you but I'm afraid it might be too technically complicated to make.
Front: A picture of a soccer mom loading groceries or kids into an SUV with the caption: "Second Class Citizen"
Back: A picture of a homeless man sleeping on cardboard. Caption: "First Class Citizen"
Larry
The source of all power is the ability to say "No."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ray, I can print your tees for about 3 dollars a piece, less if you don't mind off-color plain tees. Our cousins own a print shop and have hundreds of batch ends laying around. So while the colors won't all be matching or uniform, they are cheap. A case of beer, doing our own printing, and we get cheap stuff. Can also do bumper stickers, mugs, can cozys, etc. Please let me know if you are interested, I offered before but didn't hear back from you. The Biscuit Queen
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Wednesday January 14, @01:13PM EST (#48)
|
|
|
|
|
"It takes a different attitude and set of tactics to protect society from an attack by women from within." Exactly. Feminism's strength is mens' stubborn insistence to hold onto the shackles of the traditional male role. Our battle is not with feminists-rather, it is with ourselves. Only when we break these shackles will we be able to defeat feminism.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Beautifully stated, Kenshin, and extremely thoughtful. This seems very much to apply to the realm of father's rights concerning childcare, an area in which I am in very strong agreement with most of what I read on the site.
I do think, however, that we must maintain the inner image of protector, even as we 'fight' the aspects of feminism that seek to harm us, and which even cry out against our 'presumption' of even thinking of ourselves as protectors. Our 'fight' is to restore normalcy for the benefit of all, NOT just to resore our own rights (duties?) as men.
Once again, 'in sickness and in health'.
Another statement comes humorously to mind:
"Honey, this is for your own good..."
; )
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
How do I put this gently?
Okay. Fuck gently.
So, you're willing to bend over and obligingly grab your ankles to be sodomized, eh? Real man you are indeed.
It's willing catamites like yourself who are even more of a problem than the feministas.
You know, the damned feminazis have "offended" us out of rights of due process, have drugged our sons, stolen our children, robbed us of careers, criminalized so much as looking at them the wrong way - and you know exactly what the hell has let them? Men like yourself who stood there and took it in the name of "Honor."
Fuck. Your. Honor. Ten years ago the whole "proud stoic victim" mentality of yours got my son stitches in his chin after some girl tripped him in the lunch line and he fell face first into a glass shield - and she never so much as served a detention because girls hitting boys is "no big deal." What, though, do you think would have happened if he'd popped her one?
It's also doing a big favor for her, too. Last I heard of her, she dropped out of scholl to have a baby, went on welfare, and was so bad she had her child taken from her.
Gah. Someone revoke his testicles.
* Putting the SMACKDOWN on Feminazis since 1989! *
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
::::Ten years ago the whole "proud stoic victim" mentality of yours got my son stitches in his chin after some girl tripped him in the lunch line and he fell face first into a glass shield - and she never so much as served a detention because girls hitting boys is "no big deal."::::
That's awful. Was this his response or that of the school? Did you encourage him to take action?
bg
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
That of the school; and it's one of the things that helped spur me to more activism over the years.
This whole "Let women do as they jolly well please, and if you complain you're a whiner" is just plain crap.
* Putting the SMACKDOWN on Feminazis since 1989! *
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gah. Someone revoke his testicles.
No need. He has none.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sorry to hear about your son.
The testicles are in the mail...
; )
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't think anyone is calling for new laws. This victory came without the help of our beloved leaders and protectors (may their jackboots forever have that mirror shine). It seems to me that this was merely a case of people having the potential negative consequences of parading their contempt for men brought home to them by a few honourable and outspoken men.
There's nothing even remotely feminist about this campaign.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You offer the strongest and most cleanly stated critique yet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
One point I haven't seen raised yet is that this is EXACTLY the type of victory we need - one using THIER tactics against them.
Stoicism and/or a misguided belief in honor/inherent human good will not solve the problems. The men's movement needs successes. The feminist methodologies have proved remarkably effective. Why not co-opt them?
The problem is that we cannot use the old rules on the new battlefield. They no longer apply. The last 30+ years have changed tremendously the legal and moral landscape of our society, and to attempt to work in any other framework just doesn't make sense. Peaceful, policitical resistance works. As more men (and women) become aware of the extent of the problems, the successes will become greater and easier.
Finally, you claim that those people are whining. Do you also call it whining when you write a letter to your congressman, president, or the editor of the local paper? Do you call it whining when you make a petition drive to get something changed? No offense, but welcome to the political process in America: "Make your voice heard!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
One point I haven't seen raised yet is that this is EXACTLY the type of victory we need - one using THIER tactics against them.
Stoicism and/or a misguided belief in honor/inherent human good will not solve the problems. The men's movement needs successes. The feminist methodologies have proved remarkably effective. Why not co-opt them?
The problem is that we cannot use the old rules on the new battlefield. They no longer apply."
This was not an example of "using their tactics against them" - this kind of pressure has been used in every social activism movement since the beginnings of this country. Back in the 1970s, Caesar Chavez promoted a boycott of grapes and lettuce to put pressure on the growers for decent treatment of migrant laborers. Ending Apartheid in South Africa was hastened by disinvestment in, and refusing to do business with, companies there.
Economic pressure is the most fundamental and easiest kind of pressure to bring to bear in order to bring about social change - "if you want my business, stop doing things which piss me off." Just last year, a boycott of French products was announced to deal with France's lack of support of the US regarding Iraq.
What this does point out is that once men break out of their total passivity, or "suck it up and take it in the shorts, LIKE A MAN" bullshit, people cave in no time. All this could have been stopped years ago execept for those two failures on the part of men.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I agree that this type of activism has been used for all sorts of social activism, and effectively, I might add. However, as the feminists HAVE embraced and used these tactics, and we haven't, I stand by my statement that we are using their tactics against them. The fact that other social activism movements have used them (such as environmentalism - in which I was very active for a long period of time) does not negate the fact that these are the tactics that are being used.
But your last paragraph is exactly correct. The backlash is coming, because men have had enough.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I stand by my statement that we are using their tactics against them
Ok - the point I was making was that "DOING ANYTHING" counts as one of "their tactics" at this point. For years, I have watched men stuck in the concrete of "we are above all this" while they got their clocks cleaned by women who had no such idiot delusions. And, the comment that started all this was essentially calling men "pussies" for doing anything - and trying to use the name-calling trick of "whiners" to once more shame men into doing nothing.
I do think, or at least I sincerely hope, that men really are fed up and are about to explode into just plain STOPPING people from getting away with the same old shit they have been getting away with for YEARS.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I respectfully suggest that one other important tactical lesson to be had from the very quickly successful campaign against retailers of the hateful anti-boys t-shirts is this --
Misandry in our culture is pervasive.
As many other posters have observed, it shows up in both direct and subtle ways.
Evidence of forty years of direct feminist assault is most painfully felt in the distortions of the Family Courts, due legal process, domestic violence tyranny, and associated issues like paternity fraud, false rape charges, etc. etc.
The less blatant manifestations of misandry show up "just (but not really) under the radar screen " in pop media commodities like TV shows, advertising, t-shirts, and "common assumptions."
By successfully revealing the underlying HATRED at the root of the David & Goliath anti-male fashion product line, the focus has been shifted to those immumerable "subtle" instruments of male-bashing and denigration.
This campaign against commercial purveyors of misandry (kudos Glenn Sacks, NCFM, and others!) has terrific potential to get people everywhere to begin to notice was has before been merely INVISIBLE.
Ultimate tactic -- make the invisible very, very VISIBLE. Then make it unacceptible, even reprehensible, to all thinking women and men.
It has begun with a t-shirt being revealed as an emblem of feminist hatred.
Next?
"It's a terrible thing ... living in fear."
- Roy: hunted replicant, Blade Runner
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ultimate tactic -- make the invisible very, very VISIBLE. Then make it unacceptible, even reprehensible, to all thinking women and men.
It has begun with a t-shirt being revealed as an emblem of feminist hatred.
This is why I think the defeat of David and Goliath may prove to be the feminazis' El Alamein. There has been bloodshed in this gender war, much of it in the form of men's and boys' suicides, but I don't think we're likely to see men and women facing off with tanks and bombers in the sense of traditional warfare. Rather, I think this could be an El Alamein or a Stalingrad for the feminazis in the sense that it may mark their first, clear, broadly recognized defeat. It may mark the limit of expansion of feminist hatred, lies, and oppression.
We may well have reached a cusp, just as the gay community did at Stonewall.
-- Creating a hostile environment for Nazis since the 1970s.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
We may well have reached a cusp, just as the gay community did at Stonewall.
Fantastic analogy! I am hoping, FERVENTLY, that this is indeed the watershed event when men as a group finally stand up and say "ENOUGH!!!"
This isn't about 1 or 2 stores, I want to see this guy go the way of GADZOOKS, faster and farther - I want to see him in bankruptcy.
One of my biggest difficulties with the men's movement so far has been that it also seemed to me to be a bunch of whining. I am really glad to see men finally standing up for themselves - actually for their SONS - and DEMANDING some respect. And, doing so with some teeth to the demand so that those who choose to ignore it, suffer from ignoring it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If we were using "their tactics" we would be calling for new hate crime legislation to legally prevent companies from selling such shirts, and to allow the arrest of girls wearing them on grounds of "sexual harassment."
"Our tactics" are enlightenment. Turn on the lights and watch the rats run.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This post convinces me that I was wrong in my initial reaction. I was envisioning the sort of 'hate crime' response you describe here when no such response actually took place. A criticism was voiced and that criticism was honored. I really have nothing to complain about here.
Lesson learned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks. I'm not sure what to say. I'm not used to people agreeing with me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Thankyou Skipkent. It takes a real decent person to listen to the opposition and admit they made a mistake. I hope you stick around. The Biscuit Queen
Dave K - A Radical Moderate
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Wednesday January 14, @07:01PM EST (#66)
|
|
|
|
|
I'm sick of hearing this crap about "honor" when our rights and the rights of boys are being trampled with. One man,Glenn Sacks,is leading the way to a better tomarrow. Glenn is taking critism over this and you're coming up with this "pussy" bullshit.
When feminists run us over will they be so in awe when they encounter your "honor"? Not fighting back,where's the honor with that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
We seem to have someone into spending a lot of energy to respond to each and every response to a poorly conceived first post.
I smell troll shit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sorry, that must be me. I figured that the least I could do after my clearly somewhat offensive 'initial public offering' was to respond as civilly and honestly as possible to the responses my post generated. I didn't want to give the impression of a crass 'hit and run'.
A crass 'hit and respond', perhaps, but not a hit and run!
In any case, I'm not out to simply make a nuisiance of myself. If I can't convince others via my future activities here that I wish to be honest participant and not a mere heckler or button-pusher, then I will by all means cease, desist and disengage without further comment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hey, SkipKent,
I've already acknowledged that I was a bit too hasty in calling you a troll. But, another major men's forum just got destroyed by trolls, so things are a bit extra-wary here at the moment.
Hang around and contribute to the discussion, and you will be welcome.
Play games, and people here will be on you like ugly on an ape.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
First off, I wish to offer apologies for my clumsy introduction to the forum and the understandable ire (i.e. 'righteous flamage' ; ) it drew.
While I maintain my opinion as to the veracity of the 'pussy' dynamic I initially described, I must admit hands down that I was wrong in ascribing it to the event in question.
The following article ('Wimps and Barbarians' by Terrence Moore), which just came to my attention, is one that I think touches on the dynamic I had in mind, but in a much more lucid, thoughtful and productive fashion. Hope you enjoy.
http://www.claremont.org/writings/crb/winter2003/m oore.html
Cheers,
-SKent
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
What I find of value in the article is the difference it illustrates to me between a 'barbarian' (or jock or bully) and a 'warrior' (or athlete or defender), as well as between a 'wimp' and a 'scholar'.
That's where the 'pussy' factor comes into the equation for me. I, for one, am not looking forward to growing old in a world run by loudmouth yahoos devoid of sense and whining pussies devoid of a sense of humor. Yet it seems, at times, that's exactly what our hyper-feminized culture is producing by the vat-load.
With all the shouting in every corner about 'our rights' versus 'their oppression', I just think we need to be very careful indeed as to just what, exactly, we ask for, because we'll probably get it, and when we do it may encourage, on a larger scale, something we like even less than what we sought to eradicate in the first place.
-skent
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I just think we need to be very careful indeed as to just what, exactly, we ask for, because we'll probably get it, and when we do it may encourage, on a larger scale, something we like even less than what we sought to eradicate in the first place.
In a nutshell, that is my response to feminism - and to literally take the position "She asked for it." My intention is to give women feminism and equality until they scream.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
If you liked that article, you might find Richard Zubaty interesting.
Larry
The source of all power is the ability to say "No."
|
|
|
|
|
[an error occurred while processing this directive]
|
