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by Anonymous User on Tuesday April 29, @09:11PM EST (#1)
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Dan,
Doritos - more than nearly any other company (possible exception of Subway) - has been using the "drooling male loser" ads for years now.
I personally think they actually do work for 2 reasons. The first of which is obvious...alot of women seem to build up their self-esteem by comparing themselves favorably to men ("ick, he's such a loser"). Women who have been brainwashed since infancy to think men have all the power like ANY DEPICTION OF THE OPPOSITE.
The second is more subtle but probably more disturbing. The Maxim mag crowd seems to actually take some pride in being perpetual adolescents..."dude, that chick has totally far out hooters." I think the images of "strong" men have been so effectively removed that alot of guys have these type of dolts as their new male model. Life has become a 24-hour version of "The Man Show." Also, this allows them to remain in the good graces of women. As much as women LIKE ANY DEPICTION OF FEMALES HAVING POWER OVER MALES they are equivalently angered at ANY DEPICTION OF MALES HAVING POWER OVER FEMALES.
Thus, women walk all over men and if the men are willing to put up with it and act like they deserve it, then maybe they can get some nookie.
Sad but true.
Mark
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Yeah, I agree with Mark, especially on the first part of his reply. The male loser ads are designed for a female audience. Women like to see their veto power over men.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday April 29, @10:26PM EST (#3)
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This is also why we keep seeing again, and again The "Man-in-bondage-by-woman" scenerio being played out repeatedly in TV and movies. Even advertiseing, in some cases.
This is a show of dominance by the female over the lesser male.
You see it in alot on shows like "DARKANGEL", "ZENA warrior pricess", (both now canceled, thankfuly) "THE PRACTICE", "BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER", Fox's "24", "RELIC HUNTER", "SHE-SPIES", Endless soap operas And on and on.
If I had a nickle for every time I saw some dumb-a$$ed DOMINATRIX threatening some wussy-poopie guy with a whip on television or in movies, I'd be a millionaire 10 times over.
Any one remember that "VOODOO jeans" ad/billboard in Australia? The one that depicted the two naked men on leashes being "walked" like DOGS by a "dominant" woman??? I remember it only too well.
These things are meant to cater to women's sexual fantasies. and appearantly it works, because women take notice. ALOT of women. and apearantly it SELLS.
Not only does this tell you alot about the mentality of the advertisors, it, like-wise tells you about the mentality of a MAJORITY of women, these days.
I find it interesting that the "Noble, careing, nurturing" gender seems to get off on sexual violence and degradation of men.
VERY Interesting.
It is also interesting that when or more likely if any WOMAN were depicted in these ways , these very SAME women would cry "FOUL!" and "SEXISM!"
Want proof?
A little while back I did a bit of research on this little love affair women have with male-bondage.
I found that back in the late 70s and early 80s, there were a number of published "DETECTIVE" magazines on news stands. They were titled things like "TRUE DETECTIVE", "STARTLING DETECTIVE", etc. On the covers of these "detective" magazines a trend developed of depicting girls bound and gagged while some guy, whom we presume is a robber or kidnapper, fondles her or stands over her dominantly.
Women and feminists HOWLED in protest. Some women even got together and picketted any store that stocked these magazines. The protest was short-lived because, as usual, when women complain the stores buckled and began pulling the mags from their shelves, and refused to carry them, unless the covers were "cleaned up".
Soon The magazines began depicting women holding men at gun-point, and women tiying up men.
As a result, the magazines didn't sell any more and therefore went out of publication. Which may tell you something about some MEN in our society, as well. However alot of Men joined women in the protest of these debaseing depictions of women on these covers.
Funny though that when men are depicted in the same, exact way(s) little or no protest is heared comeing from the FEMALE side of the population.
BTW. I SAW some examples of these "detective" magazines on an "image search" on the web. I can DEFINATLY understand women's objections to them, as well as any MAN'S objections, as well. These things were HORRID. And both women AND men were right to object.
But now we see men depicted this way on a daily bases. Not just on some lurid magazine cover, but EVERYWHERE we look, practicaly.
Primarily on TV and in movies. But also on billboards and such. like the "VOODOO JEANS" one described above.
And no one seems to care. It is met with an attitude of; "Oh, well it's just a MAN. La, La, Pass the salt."
When these magazines were being published, I remember vividly women saying how afraid they were that children would see those covers. How it "Would shape their views about women" because of the negative imagery.
I remember women saying that the covers depicting women all tied up and gagged that way, made them feel "Embarassed." and "Less than human."
Appearantly, though, they expected men to have compasion and help them to put an end to these horrible, de-humanizing depictions of women.
And they got just THAT, from men. (and SHOULD have.)
But now where are WOMEN, who claim to be all for fairness and equality for ALL people, Who claim to be so sensitive, nurturing, moraly supirior and compassionate?
When it was WOMEN who were being de-humanized, the cry of "FOWL" was LOUD in both male and female voices.
Now that it is the other way around, We hear a few, (too few) male voices calling "Fowl".
But the female voice is disturbingly and hypocriticaly SILENT!
Again, I say; INTERESTING.
-Thundercloud.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday April 30, @06:44AM EST (#8)
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This is also why we keep seeing again, and again The "Man-in-bondage-by-woman" scenerio being played out repeatedly in TV and movies. Even advertiseing, in some cases.
This is a show of dominance by the female over the lesser male.
You see it in alot on shows like "DARKANGEL", "ZENA warrior pricess", (both now canceled, thankfuly) "THE PRACTICE", "BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER", Fox's "24", "RELIC HUNTER", "SHE-SPIES", Endless soap operas And on and on.
For sure there is no shortage of TV programs that revolve around a woman verbally degrading or physically bashing up men (or male "monsters" -- but aren't they all?) and absolutely zero based on the opposite premise that watching a man abuse or bash women is a fun and worthwhile recreation.
However, we must be prepared to face the reality that many of these programs, such as Xena and Buffy, were at least moderately popular with young men. Many young men have a masochistic streak and get a perverse thrill out of the thought of being dominated by a beautiful woman. Nerdy guys who are hopeless with women often seem to fall into this category.
This is something that the feminists will inevitably throw back at us and I am not sure as to how best to respond.
Your thoughts, please gentlemen!
cheers,
Tim
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday April 30, @06:48PM EST (#17)
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While it is true that there are men with a "Masochist" streak who want to be "dominated" by a "beautiful" woman. The fact remains that an equal (or possibly HIGHER) number of WOMEN, like-wise have fantasies of being "dominated" by a powerful, handsome man.
So what?
The difference is, that we see men being treated this way in movies and television (including commercials, even) OPENLY and with out shame, where children can see it played out. While these "Masochistic-male" fantasies, where men are de-humanized, debased and humiliated are considered acceptable, The same treatment of WOMEN is viewed as in-human, sexist, Pornographic and "sadistic violence against women".
As I said in my previous post. The majority complaint that was made about those "detective magazines" depicting women in 'bondage and humiliation' situations, was "HOW IT WILL EFFECT CHILDREN'S PRECEPTIONS OF WOMEN". and how it made "WOMEN FEEL EMBARRASSED AND LESS THAN HUMAN".
Though I hear alot of men makeing the same complaint about their depictions in pop-culture, They are getting NO WHERE NEAR the same consideration that women got, when women obected to those detective rags.
In fact Men are being told to "Shut up and take it like a man", as we are usualy told when WE object to our image portrayals. For WOMEN it was just a bunch of cheap magazines they had to put up with. But for us Men it is the WHOLE G#& damned INTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY!
Frankly Tim, no offence, but simply explaining this phenominon away as "Well, alot of men are masochistic" to justify it, just can't float.
NOTHING exists in a VACCUM.
Those detective magazines could have NEVER explained their matirial away by saying, "Oh, well, There are just alot of masochistic women out there...." Even if it IS true.
Instead of that we as a society SHOULD be asking ourselves the questions; "What has happened in our society to PRODUCE such men with such a disgusted view of themselves and their own gender?", And "What has happened in or society that has produced such a bigoted female population that thrives on such abuse of their brothers?" And "why in a society where it is said that ALL people are to be treated equaly, ONE particular GROUP of people are being set aside for UN-equal treatment?".
To wrap this up, I will insist once again that this is a bigger problem than most people want to admit. And no one seems to care.
There WILL be ramifications for this.
We already are begining to see a generation of men who not only EXEPT abuse of them as something NORMAL, but we are also seeing a group of men who LIKE the abuse. There is something VERY psycologicaly WRONG here!
And if we think this CURRENT generation of men are bad, All we have to do is sit back and do NOTHING about this current bigotry of men, and wait for the next generation. My brothers I have studied psycology, TRUST me when I say it will be DISASTEROUS. It's gonna make alshuwitz look like the county fair.
A demoralized, self-loathing people are the SIMPLEST to destroy.
Take it from someone who comes from a group of people where this has ALREADY been tried and SUCCESSFUL...!
-Thundercloud.
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The difference is, that we see men being treated this way in movies and television (including commercials, even) OPENLY and with out shame, where children can see it played out.
I agree, Thundercloud. I will say, however, that judging by my personal experiences, there are far more men who want to be treated like dirt than women who want to be treated like dirt. And it isn't just in the younger generation of males, who've been raised from day one to despise themselves.
I think of the number of men who buy into, tolerate, and even promote feminism. I haven't met anywhere near that number of women who go out of their way to be despised.
Nevertheless, the fundamental problem, as you point out, is society's celebration of the degradation of men and boys. It will come back to haunt us. Much of this evil involves exposing boys to the degradation. That is child abuse. Someday, I hope to see many feminists who are guilty of child abuse incarcerated for their crimes.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday May 01, @01:45AM EST (#21)
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First off I want to say, that I went back and re-read my own post, and it looks as if I'm attacking Tim. Sorry, Tim that wasn't my intention.
Second, All I can say is that I find it HIGHLY disturbing that men want to be treated like "dirt".
I would ask how this came about, but I already KNOW it is from 30 years, plus, of feminist-conditioning.
Also, I have had a fair ammount of time to think about this issue since I made my previous post earlier this afternoon.
And I am thinking, perhaps it is time for me to walk away from the men's movement and concentrate my efforts on the rights of my people. (American Indians).
The reason being is, that I feel a bit 'side-swiped' by this revealation of "masochist men".
On the one hand, many of us have de-cried domectic violence against men. But now I am to understand that men LIKE being dominated and abused by women. Perhaps THAT is one of the real reasons men don't report abusive women.
They LIKE the abuse and domination.
If this is the case, then what am I fighting for?
Why should I or really ANY of us advocate for a group of people who LIKE being de-humanized, belittled, humiliated and dominated by women?
This masochistic attitude comes from self-loathing. A self-loathing that comes from three decades of conditioning by feminists and even women themselves. I have heared it said many times that hate is something that is taught. This includes hatred of self. And men have been taught well.
At one time men were a decent, proud, respectable gender. But now..., Men are nothing more than a bunch of spineless, groveling Uncle Toms, who hate themselves even MORE than women do, if this whole "masochist men" thing holds true.
I do not know what to do for a people like that.
If they ENJOY the abuse and humiliation that women more than happily mead out upon them, what can I do for a people like this?
If they hate themselves and get off sexualy and other-wise by their own de-humanization what words can I offer to show them why this is wrong?
If this is indeed the case, then the battle is ALREADY over. and the feminists and women who love to degrade men as much as men love to be degraded have already won.
And men's greatest enemy was never the feminists or "women" but THEMSELVES.
We have defeated ourselves.
So, as I said at the begining of this post, I am considering puting the men's movement behind me.
My Indian people DON'T like being dehumanized, degraded, dominated, punished humiliated etc.
We still have pride in who we are and draw strength from the same. We don't believe we "deserve" such treatment, the way it seems American men, outside of our reservations do.
I believe it is easier and more realistic to help a people who want to STOP ill-treatment of themselves.
But what can you do for people who ENJOY it
and are teaching the next generation of boys the same self-loathing and dis-respect for themselves?
-Thundercloud.
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TC: First off I want to say, that I went back and re-read my own post, and it looks as if I'm attacking Tim. Sorry, Tim that wasn't my intention.
No sweat, bro! I agreed with 90% of what you had to say.
Don't be too harsh on your fellow man. You guys are complaining about teen/young adult programming on Fox, but I can tell you it starts much earlier than that. There are many many kids films put out that depict violence against and degradation of men as acceptable and funny.
The favorite joke is always the same: someone hits a man in the groin and he pulls a funny face and doubles over. This is always shown as a socially acceptable, clever, and fun thing to do. There is never any blowback to the perp or any consideration of the suffering of the victim, just laughs all round.
Films like Mouse Hunt show this to kids, male and female, dozens if not hundreds of times between the ages of 5 and 11. At that age they just soak it up and accept it if no-one points out that it's wrong. Once they reach puberty these evil messages get all mixed up with sex and the result is often masochistic fetishism (hey, chicks like touching my genitals! with a fist or boot, that is....).
I have two sons aged 5 and 7, so I know a fair bit about this. I also have a daughter aged 9 (who has it all over her little brothers anyway, of course) who started acting like this towards her brothers after my wife began bringing videos like this home on rental.
I like your points regarding the Indian peoples, but though they had it bad at least they had their women on their side.
Tim
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday May 01, @04:53AM EST (#24)
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Tim.
Yes, Our women are basicaly on our side. But even that is changeing.
On or off res, (reservation) we see the same TV shows and go to many of the same movies as everyone else.
So our women are being influenced too. Same with our men, but it is not too late.
-Thundercloud.
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Thomas> there are far more men who want to be treated like dirt than women who want to be treated like dirt. And it isn't just in the younger generation of males, who've been raised from day one to despise themselves.
Thomas> I think of the number of men who buy into, tolerate, and even promote feminism. I haven't met anywhere near that number of women who go out of their way to be despised.
I think one reason for this is guys are horny; other reasons include cowardice. It's easy for men to try to butter up to women by joining a guy-bashing mob: "Look, see, I'm nice! I'm not like all those other nasty men, I'm on your side! You can trust *me*!".
They don't want to be despised. They imagine that women will despise all the *other* men but make an exemption for them. This doesn't happen, of course.
It's also much easier and more comfortable to just go along with the tide instead of standing up to it. There's always the worry that if *you* stand up to the harpies to defend some guy or guys in general the next thing you know they'll be jumping on *your* genitals to the cheers of the crowd.
Tim
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday April 29, @11:09PM EST (#4)
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“My question is--Why is this theme so prevelant on television with guys striking out with girls? Does this really sell stuff?”
Dan:
That’s a heck of a good question to ask.
It’s just my guess that this is playing on the old sexual game of, “Men always want more what they can’t have.” The myth of the alluring, unattainable female must somehow lead corn chip advertising exec's. to use this tactic to sell. Perhaps, subliminally, men think that if they buy the Dorittos, then somehow the girl will magically be in the bag like a Cracker Jack prize.
O.K. I’ll admit that’s a pretty crazy explanation, but you’re right in asking, “Does this stuff really sell?” Are guys really so lead around by there penis’s that all you have to do is wave an elusive female at them to get them to follow their impulses blindly to the corn chip rack? I guess "IT" really does have a mind of its own, or so advertising exec's. believe.
We are not so highly evolved to deny that we have animal instincts that drive us to behavior, but we are not such brute beasts that we are without intellectual understanding and control of our physical natures. Pheminuts and sales people obviously would like to convince us to believe only the former. Excuse me, I suddenly have the munchies. Dorritos anyone?
Ray
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday April 29, @11:18PM EST (#5)
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Every time my testicles ache I reach for a bag of yummy corn chips.
I don't know why.
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"""""The myth of the alluring, unattainable female must somehow lead corn chip advertising exec's. to use this tactic to sell.""""""
The 'myth' of the alluring, unattainable female is in my opinion just that, a myth. I have only seen or met about 1 female in 10 who would be alluring or desirable. The rest are just ugly, (inside as well as outside) fat, stupid, self-absorbed, misandric assholes to some degree or the other.
As the trite old sarcastic saying goes, "You've come a long way baby."
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday April 30, @06:49AM EST (#9)
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"Maybe this is one reason why I always had trouble getting dates with American women. They are taught that it's fun to reject men!"
Only one reason among many I don't bother anymore, brother. Even if you are "lucky" enough to get the girl, she'll only hang around until she gets bored, or until the bigger better deal with more money and better looks comes along. Screw that! I decided if the best I could hope to be was "Mr. He'll Do", that wasn't gonna cut it. We ALL know what women really want!
- Freebird
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The clear message I get from the ad is that if I eat Doritos, hot chicks will reject me. So I guess I better not buy or eat Doritos, eh?
It's a no brainer. Eat Doritos = Get rejected by women.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday April 30, @07:34AM EST (#11)
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I wonder - do advertising agencies have a unified resource that is telling them that anti-male ads sell products.
I agree with many of the postings here: That men are portrayed as lowly boobs in the presence of beautiful women.
Another trend I see growing to epidemic proportions is in sitcoms and movies and the ads the networks run to promote these shows - attacks on male genitals.
I probably watch 10 hours a week of television. This week alone (mostly on Fox) I saw male genitals get hit or otherwise verbally threatened on these shows Oliver Beene(the whole episode was about "retracted male testicles after getting hit - with girls laughing about it), Malcolm in the Middle, The Pitts, and reruns of Drew Carrie. These shows are all targeting young audiences… Never mind all the movies that attack male genitals -movies like "The New Guy" and "Jackass" which target young male audiences have numerous attacks on male genitals and it serves as a central theme throughout the movie.
Many shows usually have a justified attack to the male groin as a theme in it. These shows also have product marketing aimed at predominately women too.
Riding to work, a local radio show that is on a station that plays to a female audience has a morning show called challenge called "Nut busters"
(not sure what it is about, but the name alone suggests attacks on male genitals).
I have outlined only the "tip of the iceberg" here to this problem, but the male as dumb brute theme, and the attack on the male genitals theme seems to be on the rise in popular culture.
How are these themes getting played out on the young males in this country?
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"This week alone (mostly on Fox) I saw male genitals get hit or otherwise verbally threatened on these shows Oliver Beene(the whole episode was about "retracted male testicles after getting hit - with girls laughing about it),"
What? I've never heard of this show, but I can't imagine making an episode about something so stupid and personally offensive; apparently the culture is trying to make men seem less important in order to rationalize sadistic abuse and sexual torture and humiliation, which is the standards tactic used by any such practice throughout history and the world.
Another theme is the theme which villifies men and and presents a self-righteous female "getting fed up and fighting back" in this type of situation-- which is likewise a standard rationalization by the likes of Adolph Hitler in using their claimed "victimhood" to justify their acts of sexual torture and mutilation on "inferiors" who oppress poor little them, thus making "us and them" pure and atrocious, respectively; even dingbat Edith Bunker related a story involving such (which is why I don't watch those re-runs anymore).
This likewise plays in the realm of symbolic castration, effectively committing vicarious sexual assault and mutilation on the entire male gender, and I've become so sick of this that I can't even watch regular television; there was even an episode of "King of the Hill" revolving entirely around this topic! (But what do you expect from the guy who made "Beavis and Butt-head?")
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday April 30, @12:26PM EST (#16)
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yes, the episode was about: Oliver the main character (wimpy and ineffectice- the way feminists like 'em) got scared to dance with a girl in the gym class. So while standing in front a the most attractive girl in his grade, he fakes getting kicked in the groin by someone, with the girl standing above him. The teacher calls the whole class to come and stand over Oliver while he asks if his testicles had "retracted into his body" Oliver said yes, and the whole class watches as the boy gets dropped on his behind as a way to fix his condition. The teacher screams and the kids go into an amused panic over the scene.
Later, the last scene in the show, the teacher gets hit in the groin by a ball and falls to the ground, the students gather around and someone suggests as "testicle drop" and the show ends...
I'm going to post this as a topic.
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"Another theme is the theme which villifies men and and presents a self-righteous female "getting fed up and fighting back" in this type of situation-- which is likewise a standard rationalization by the likes of Adolph Hitler in using their claimed "victimhood" to justify their acts of sexual torture and mutilation on "inferiors" who oppress"
Which makes the term 'Feminazi' a very accurate depiction.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday May 01, @12:58AM EST (#20)
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Especialy when it comes to shows like "Oliver Beene", The more disturbing element is that they are now brutalizing the genitals of little boys! CHILDREN!!!!!
For God's sake...,
-Thundercloud.
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I think the idea to make the viewer feel superior to the characters rather than jealous, so you sympathize with them more; I mean, if
It's also an excuse to work a beautiful woman into the shot without seeming gratiuous
Therefore, if the viewer is led to feel superior to these characters, and the beautiful woman doesn't want them, then the viewer subconsciously associates the product the superior feeling of himself getting that woman since he's superior to these Beavis & Butt-head couch-monkeys sitting there munching nachos.
After all, if the woman doesn't want the dork, it's because she has standards for someone like-- the viewer, thus making the male viewer feel he's already beaten the competition; the fact that the commercial just wants him to buy the same chips munched by these air-heads.
Thus, we have the appeal to male competition rather than male comeraderie, which is so thick in our society that we don't even see the forest for the trees, when men are pitted against each other and led to hate each other as rivals in order to feel superior despite ending up worse than if they cooperated (which reminds me of the theory in "A Beautiful Mind," where Russel Crowe basically takes credit for inventing the concept of "teamwork" like Al Gore with the Internet).
Dennis Miller did a joke about how the ads for Cotton Dockers were always about guys in Cotton Dockers pants, talking about how they couldn't get laid, and he posed the question that maybe it's because they wore Cotton Dockers.
However, the impression is that it's because they're losers compard to the viewer; it all comes from the "confidence" or "con" game of gaining the person's confidence by building UP their confidence, i.e. making them feel superior.
This is the world's oldest form of hatemongery whereby men have always been covertly duped by society to compete for status and glory etc, but it's so ingrained in world culture that no one even notices even though I'm sure most people hate it, but the competitive icons who win all promise us that everyone can do it-- which is like everyone winning the Lotto.
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That's pretty good, man! I think you have it there. There is a superiority trip for BOTH sexes if you look twice.
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"That's pretty good, man! I think you have it there. There is a superiority trip for BOTH sexes if you look twice."
Do both sexes lose out? I mean, the girl holds herself so high up that no man will do. Women are conditioned to reject men. Men are conditioned to fear rejection, therefore not make attempts at dating.
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I started taking martial arts lessons when I was about ten.
In my third year into it, I was put into a sparring ring with an older female student. In the course of our sparring, I executed a front snap kick, and she stepped right into it...
(Now, we boys were told to wear cups. Big bulky cups, that fit into a girdle like garment. Girls wore no groin protection.)
...she stepped right into it, and let out the most piercing shriek I have ever heard, and collapsed like a wet rag, quivering and blubbering. She had to be helped into the girls locker room.
Yeah. World's best kept secret. It hurts them as much as us. A few years later, some girl asked me if I'd like a good swift kick in the crotch. I smiled and said, "Only if you do. Go ahead. Make the first shot count, you won't get a second."
Heehe. She couldn't have backed off quicker if I'd shoved a rattlesnake in her face.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Thursday May 01, @09:56AM EST (#26)
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An intersting point - that attacks on genitals are always against men... in shows, common knowledge and in defense training.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday May 01, @10:07AM EST (#27)
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Yeah, When I was a kid the girls and boys in my neighborhood all played together most of the time. Even in "rough" sports.
I played enough softball with girls to know that they go down just as fast as a boy when the old apple hits the groin.
-Thundercloud.
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