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I've commented about this before, the current system of choice for women and payments for men needs to change, I'm very excited that someone is finally going to take a crack at this obscene inequity.
I actually got my "rude awakening" about this subject from my first love. As will often happen when you're a teen and have NO idea what you're doing, we weren't as careful as we should have been and got a scare one month. When we discussed what would happen if she was pregnent I was told that she decided she would get an abortion. I was TOLD. I had ZERO impact, my feelings against abortion were totally blown off. She informed me that "it's my body and I'll do with it as I please".
Since then I've had a problem with women expecting to hold a mans wallets open for 20 years when we have ABSOLUTELY NO input on the decision regarding the life or death of OUR OWN CHILD. I don't believe we'll ever get a veto regarding abortion, but I believe we can successfully cut the wallet string... and it's about time.
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I've also been told by a woman who alledged that I impregnated her that none of my feelings about her decision to have the child (assuming she actually was pregnant) would be taken into consideration; on the other hand, I was expected to support whatever decision she made. Some women enjoy the power that the law gives them.
In this case, she wasn't pregnant. I've been avoiding intimate relationships with women for years ever since. I have no problem with a woman doing whatever she wants with her body, provided she has no problem doing whatever I want with my wallet.
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We'll obviously hear from our resident pheminut with the same tired refrain of "the children...(insert your favoriote whine here.)"
Balderdash. I'm sick to the end of forever with the female tendancy to hold children up as a shield for despicable pheminine behavior. "We'll do as we please, arrange things so that if we're thwarted children suffer, and then blame you (men) for being anti-child and hurting children."
Was a good post in another thread that concerned chaos caused in a legal system by correcting an unjust law an excuse to perpetuate said unjust law. I agree wholly, and think it's high time sole legal choice equalled sole legal responsibility, and let the chips fall where they may. After all, if "children" are the real concern of women, and not their whimsy and power, they will surely come to the negotiating table, eh?
Fugginay. Hit them where it hurts, they've been stealing our families from us for years and holding them hostage to their desires. All our "fair playing" has gotten us where? I buried a guy last year who gave up over the holidays when exwifeydearest decided he "didn't need" to see the kids over the holidays because he took them to King's Island over the summer. Far as I am concerned she's guilty of depraved indifference, and got away with murder. So I don't think anything is to harsh.
Go. Go, go, go! I hope they win.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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I discussed this with my wife yesterday, and she also was holding to Lorraines position, that it wasn't fair to hold the child responsible for this inequity.
In the course of the discussion I realized that pro-life women (which my wife is) tend not to think of abortion as a "choice", so she's worried that women who reject abortion will get "screwed" (figuratively :)) by guys who just want out of their parental responsibilities.
My belief is that as long as women are the only ones with choice, men MUST be given a method to "opt out" of any choice the woman makes that affects them (namely "I've decided to keep the child and I've decided that YOU'RE going to pay for me to keep the child, and I've decided that you'd better get a job, and I've decided that I don't give a crapola what you think about it").
Frankly I (and I think my wife also) believe the best option is no abortion at all. But as a "second best" solution I think that EITHER party shlould have an "abortion veto". At this point there's equity for both sides, and both fathers and mothers would be involved in the abortion decision. Let's see the likelyhood of feminists accepting that one! :) If either party rejects abortion then they both have to take responsibility for the life they've created.
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by Anonymous User on Friday January 17, @12:43PM EST (#5)
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I have to come down with the idea that if women have a choice to opt out of motherhood via abortion, men should have the same choice. I know there will be conniption fits thrown, but it's been asked what kind of mother would a woman forced to carry an unwanted baby be? That's a good question. And what kind of father will an angry, resentful man be? If no woman should be forced to be a mother to an unwanted child, then no man should be forced to be a father to an unwanted child.
Tell me this is a good thing; Dad is writing a check, but dad hardly ever sees the kid, puts him on the back burner, breaks play dates, treats him like and anchor on his butt - this is good for a kid?
Is the guy scum? Yeah. (And a woman who uses abortion as retroactive birth control is scum also.) Is the kid better off with an extra 25 bucks in Mama's pocket, and a father who neglects or abuses him emotionally, or would he be better off with Ma able to find a guy who wants to care for the kid.
No, the check is good for mommy. Follow the money. Smokescreens, obfuscations, and tap dances aside, that's what Lorrianne and her kith and kin are all about.
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I agree that there's a LOT of people that shouldn't have kids out there... and if abortion were legal there may be even more. I would increase "awareness" programs and try to teach kids about birth control, as well as pushing research on advances like male birth control. Then I'd try to get people to see adoption as a viable alternative if they DO get pregnant. I can't understand why someone would choose to keep a child they don't want when there's thousands of good homes just waiting for the chance to adopt.
I know this is oversimplifying a complex problem, but I think when you break it all down the first thing that we can try to change is the gravy train that unscrupulous women are able to climb onto. Then we can start working on the REAL problems. As it is, women are totally in the drivers seat here, they have ZERO reason to want to change anything about the status quo today.
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by Anonymous User on Friday January 17, @03:21PM EST (#7)
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I have always been curious: It seems when we talk about *unscrupulous women* we're assured by feminists that such women are a very rare and unlikely exception, if they exist at all.
Okay. Let's take that at face value.
Thus, if we set in place sanctions against such nearly impossible aberrations that violate the sacred and divinely ordained code of femininity, very few women, if any at all, will be subject to such canctions, correct?
So, HOW COME, when such sanctions are discussed, they are shouted down with calls that we're trying to punish all women for their gender? I don't expect Lorrianne, of course, to field such a direct question - that's right, just lurk, L, you're busy and will plead that you never saw the question later - but I'd really like to know.
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by Anonymous User on Friday January 17, @04:44PM EST (#8)
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I think there is a real inequity biologically with this..the woman has to carry the child for 9 months. We all know this, I am not trying to use it as an excuse.
If a man wants to opt out of parenthood, I agree he should be given the choice to immediately sign away ALL rights and responsibilities concerning said child. No support, no visitation. He will not have formed any bond with the child, and will not ever do so unless the child someday comes for him. That should be his choice.
I agree with my husband on the veto power for abortion. If a man says no to abortion, I ideally think there should not be one. I ideally think the man should be able to have the right to raise the child on his own and have the mother sign away all rights.
For a woman to do so is not so simple.
When a woman carries a child for 9 months, she forms a bond with the child. It is very difficult for a woman to simply sign away rights. She has a relationship with this child.
I believe the feminists object because it is not so easy for a woman to carry a child, give birth, then give up a child as it is for a man to show up in court and sign papers for an abstract he has never been in contact with.
This is why so many woman can have an abortion and could not think of adopting that same child out.
Sucks, I know. But I just thought I would give what I percieved as a possible explaination. I am not privy to feminist idiology, so I am taking a guess here.
The whole subject hits a really deep, painful cord with me so please respond gently.
Dave's wife, Jen.
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I will respond as gently as possible.
When a woman carries a child for 9 months, she forms a bond with the child
Bunk.
I know you'll be horrified. What you might be trying to say is "When I...I formed..." or "If I.. I believe I'd form..."
Jen, your experience is subjective. But it does not follow that a man, not carrying the child, does not form a similar bond. Or that a male bond is any less. Or for that matter the female bond is any more.
This is the same tired propaganda and disinformation that feminists and many women have been using to relegate the role of the father to a second class status. It has been going on for years. And it doesn't wash. Watch a man sometime after his wife has miscarried, and he's not answering her needs by being her emotional rock. Follow him as he goes down the hall, into the men's room, and cuts loose with heart wrenching sobs of grief and loss.
No, Jen. That bond is not a physical function. It's not some mystical, "women's spirituality" nonsense that men can never understand. It is a bond formed of HUMAN anticipation, and HUMAN desire to be a parent, to have offspring, and children.
And yes, men can feel it as deeply. And no, women don't have a step up on it.
Feminists object because the ability to unilaterally have an abortion, and men have no input and must bear the consequences, gives them power as women over men.
That's as gentle as you can find from me
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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And trust me. Read some of my stuff. That's very gentle. But then, you're not being a pheminut.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Thank you for your gentleness. I just would have a real hard time with some of the sarcasm I have seen on this board with this subject.
I read your comment and I see your points. I feel I did not clarify enough on a certain point so you came to a different interpretation than I intended.
I did not mean to say men CANNOT have the same bond with a child before it is born. I see where you came to that conclusion. What I was trying to say is that before the mother starts showing, and can feel the baby moving, the baby is a abstract for BOTH the parents. Which again is why it is easier for a woman to abort than to adopt. When both parents are dealing with an abstract, I think it is far easier for either to walk away and sign off rights, or have an abortion.
When the child starts making itself known, starts having a personality, starts interacting with the mother AND the father, that is when the baby becomes a reality and a person. Yes, many people can form a bond with an abstract, but it is a far stronger bond when interaction takes place.
My point was that the man can choose to walk away while the baby is an abstract. The woman cannot. That is biology.
I still agree with you on rights and responsibility, as I said. Yes, my point of view is subjective. I have personally had experience with all these options, so I cannot be objective.
I agree also that the feminist agenda is most likely about the power plays. I was trying to be an optimist ;-)
So, again, thank you for respecting my point of view and for your response. Jen
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