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by Anonymous User on Thursday January 16, @12:37PM EST (#1)
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"To our surprise, we are finding that the DCSS wants fairness in paternity fraud issues!"
Or at least this particular representative seems so. Thank you Warble. I just would like to add that we are also looking into the possibility of a ballot initiative. If we wind up going that route, we probably won't use an incremental strategy but will go for the whole gusto, because the public is over 90% for us and won't play games like the legislature has been. If we can come up with the money it takes for a ballot initiative we might go that route as well.
We are also working with Carnell Smith to discuss combined legal actions and very strategic protests that could potentially put the state on its knees by hitting them in the pocketbook where it hurts on this issue.
Warble you have been an incredible asset to us all and I can't thank you enough.
Marc
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by Anonymous User on Thursday January 16, @01:01PM EST (#2)
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It's a sad and sorry thing to say about a society that is more concerned with the "chaos" that would be caused to a fatally flawed system and its sacred "process" than the gross injustices visited upon its citizens.
I submit to you that the system is swift to apply ill-thought legislation to correct percieved injustices against the female of the species, even when it hasn't been shown that such injustices do indeed exist.
I think you are getting stroked in Californa; I think if you were to turn your universal translator on and set it to "political weaselspeech" you'd be hearing "Turn a little more, I don't quite have a clear shot to your back yet with my knife."
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by Anonymous User on Thursday January 16, @04:13PM EST (#3)
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I have to side with AU. Sounds good. I'll believe their stated intents when I see if and how far their money and actions follow the flapping of their lips.
Maybe I am jaded, but it has been my observation that politicians say what needs to be said to shut up talk until a headline appears that can deflect that talk to something else.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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I have to side with AU. Sounds good. I'll believe their stated intents when I see if and how far their money and actions follow the flapping of their lips.
The alternative is to be a looser, sit on our asses, do nothing, complain, be a bunch of whiners, and wish that something...anything might have been done.
For now, until people like Kerkorian get off their asses and help us out with a ballot initiative this is what we've got left. Want to do a slam-dunk? Get off your ass and get a millionaire or billionaire to fund a ballot initiative! Go ahead! Try to find one!
The other alternative is to try the failed strategy again and watch Davis veto the bill like last time. But then only really stupid people would do that, and we do find that when we examine the history of paternity fraud bills in California that stupid people do the same failed strategies over...and over....and over...and over....until they become mental retards.
At least we are getting off our asses and trying to do something new. Is it ideal? No. Is it what I want in the long term? No. Does it help to move the fight for men's rights forward? YES!!!
So let all the retard complainers that have done nothing go straight to HELL!
Ironic that the very people that claim to want action in men’s issues will criticize and attack the very people that are taking action. That is very telling.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday January 16, @08:17PM EST (#7)
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Warb, You Wrote (Yes, you did):
"The alternative is to be a looser, sit on our asses, do nothing, complain, be a bunch of whiners, and wish that something...anything might have been done."
My Reply:
Yes, and I'll be the 1st to admit, that I love to come on this site and blow off steam. That being said, I have to follow up by saying it's a lot easier to come up with a plan and to talk about a plan, than to carry through with all the hard work to see the plan through to fruition. You Marc, NCFMLA, the Paternity Fraud people and all associated are to be commended for your efforts.
You Also Wrote:
"The other alternative is to try the failed strategy again and watch Davis veto the bill like last time. But then only really stupid people would do that, and we do find that when we examine the history of paternity fraud bills in California that stupid people do the same failed strategies over...and over....and over...and over....until they become mental retards."
My Reply:
Spoken like a true guerilla fighter. Never let them see the same look twice. Even when your telegraphing your strategy, make them wonder where you're coming from next. Predictability is boring. Innovation is the spice of life.
Lastly You Wrote:
"So let all the retard complainers that have done nothing go straight to HELL!
Ironic that the very people that claim to want action in men’s issues will criticize and attack the very people that are taking action. That is very telling."
My Reply:
Vituperative speech is often the sign of a true activist in the Men's Movement. If you're not frustrated some of the time, then you haven't really gone deep enough into the strongholds of the opposition.
We could all stand to be better diplomats possessed of gracious speech and infinite wisdom, but it's kind of hard to lighten up when your ramping up, focusing on a serious objective, and going forward anyhow knowing that the odds are stacked against you. I am literally honored and privileged to be with you guys.
It isn't so much that we're changing things all at once in big dramatic ways. It's probably more the irritation I see on the faces of the opposition, when they get caught in the spotlight of their own hypocritical bigotry, that gets me happy and smiling more and more these days. THE FEMINISTS HAVE NO CLOTHES. Now that's a site that would make anybody bust out laughing.
Sincerely, Ray
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I am literally honored and privileged to be with you guys.
Likewise Ray. I literally cannot believe your commitment to men's issues and some of the stunts that you've pulled off.
With this new approach I hope to nail the enemy where it hurts. Further, if we get a GOOD Criminal Law Attorney to back us on crafting the language, we stand to REALLY piss off allot of the feminist. They just hate laws that hold women equally accountable.
Even as I write this message, key documents are being faxed to key sources and emails are being sent to potential criminal attorneys that may be able to help. I just hope I can find ONE REALLY GOOD California Criminal Law Attorney that will help us from a masculist perspective. We can really kick some ass with that kind of support.
Better yet, the documentation that I have is so solid that nobody can credibly dispute that literal paternity fraud and paternity extortion takes place. I have both forms of criminal activity well documented. Be on the lookout for this story to hit the headlines.....We hope to really nail some Cali-fem assholes in the next couple of months.
Just wait Ray, you'll crap your pants when you see the documentation that I've gotten my hands on. There is literally nothing like it in the Nation.
Again, we need some of these lazy-complaining-do-nothing-man’s-activist to get off their asses, stop complaining, make phone calls, and help us get some good California Criminal Law Attorney’s to help us craft the criminal portion of this legislation. Anybody who lives in California and fails to do help make these calls is a pantyhose feminist in disguise.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Anybody who lives in California and fails to do help make these calls is a pantyhose feminist in disguise.
Dooooood! You crack me up. :)
Keep up the great work. The feminist haven of California, which convicted a boy of rape because he couldn't read the mind of a slut, may well prove to be an epicenter of successful men's rights activism.
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First, you want to know where I don't live? California. That makes me a non-constituent. Means I don't vote to put them in or take them out. Guess where my letter, phone call, etc. goes. If you guessed "File 13" you win a cigar.
So - what's for me to do? Write my senator/politician? Here in the Bible Belt, home of "Suck it up, be a man, and be chivalrous, dammit!"
Guess where I learned my cynicism with politicians, Warb? From the politicians. I tried opening a men's shelter/men's center about seven years ago. I got rezoned, I got building permits denied, revoked, grants approved and then had increasing strings attached, my loans suddenly got disapproved because the city leaned on the bank with the old "Well, maybe we have to rethink our relationship" routine.
I had "positive meetings" that were "very productive" where we "found a lot of common ground." I was asked for this study, this letter of support, this research, that book, the other this, phone call that - and all it turned out to be was blowing smoke up my ass when it wasn't moving the goalposts.
"I will believe it when I see it." There's the quote from me you can use, because I've been down the same old failed strategy route before warble; namely believing what a politician or bureaucrat says. I found a nearly infallible lie detector that works on them, sirrah. Watch them closely, if their lips are moving, they are probably lying; at the very lease they're carving out ambiguity and room to maneuver, backtrack, or exercise plausible deniability in the event the political winds change.
Have you got it in hand? You realize, don't you, that if certain pheminists report that story elsewhere, the pheminuts are going to start their own calling campaign, and just what do you think spineless Mr. Davis is going to do when the shrill calls of outrage from the pheminazis start? What, do you actually believe he's going to suddenly develop a backbone because this is the "right thing to do?"
I think you should do it. I also think you're doomed from the start - so don't get your hopes up so you can crash and burn out later. Do it, so when you get backstabbed, you can show the knife around later.
You're politically naive, warble, not in the sense of not knowing your way around the process, because you do that well. Where you always seem to fall short of sophisticated is your idealism, you've yet to come to terms with the fact that a politician is not motivated by the same things as an activist. Activists are motivated by causes. Politicians are motivated by votes and publicity. If it amounst to being the "right thing." Fine and dandy. But if it's the "wrong thing" and they can spin it right, that's cool with them too. And as a corrolary [sic] if the right thoing can be spun wrong by its opponents, those politicians are going to scurry away faster than a scalded cat.
You want political influence? Want to get something done? Fine someone in the men's activism cause that will inspire people to be a voting block. Yeah, it's like herding cats. Well, you herd cats by finding the right bait.
VOTING BLOCK. Remember those two words. Until we have one, all anyone does is just wind. Until we are able to get a rating on "Men's Issues" and convince a significant number of men to vote on that and that alone, we're going to be listened to politely, and screwed every time it's convenient.
That means a radical change in voting habits. It means that we men will have to commit to being single issue voters. 99.5% rating on men's issues, 6% rating on all our other pet causes = Good Candidate! You willing to do that? Anyone?
Chirrup? Chirrup? Beuller? Beuller?
Nope, because someone's always going to be a union man, or just can't get over their stance on education, or he's too right wing, he's too left wing, GAWDAMNIT, he's a "PUBLICAN an' mah pappy wuz a Democrat, mah granpappy wuz a Democrat, and Ah'll be DIPPED iffen ah'll vote 'PUBLICAN!
When you can walk into an office with the unspoken words hanging in the air of "Hi, I represent x% of the voting populace. Please me and I'll be grateful. Or, you opponent can please me, in which case HE will then have our gratitude." Then you can have some confidence in being dealt with square.
Right now? You're disposable. This isn't a desire to do right, it's a small measure of damage control. Executive order. It's a bone, warble, it's a bone! He's trying to get away with giving us second best to shut us up. Take it by all means, but don't be bought.
Take a lesson from the NH "Commission." It was watered down, and now it's been castrated out of political expediency. Because the girls bitched.
The girls are a voting block. And they don't have to represent "all women." Just enough. There's what you should learn from.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Friday January 17, @09:36AM EST (#14)
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Gonz:
Your efforts are laudable. Most people of good sense do back off when they see they are numberically and strategically outnumbered. It makes sense. I remember after a major earthquake my house had sgnificant cracks in the foundation in 13 places. I removed all the dirt under the foundation (not all at once), epoxied big staples into the foundation (into the holes I drilled on each side of the cracks), filled the forms with 5/8" rebar cages, them poured 3000 psi concrete in where that 80,000 pounds (best estimate) of dirt had been taken out. It was brutally hard and I never planned on doing it to that extent. I just started out, worked hard and wound up suceeding, big time. Where some men fail, others suceed for a variety of reasons. Doesn't mean the guy who failed was deficient just didn't happen for him.
You Wrote:
"Politicians are motivated by votes and publicity."
My Reply:
O.k. there are lots of places to gather signatures on our form letters and let them know we're out there and growing. We're working on getting permits to solicit for more members in public places as well. There is strength in numbers. I've already rambled on in another post about shaming them with portable vehicle billboards. Shoot, I even get comments from the bumper stickers on the back of my station wagon. Here's the irony, I'm from the midwest.
When I first came to CA I thought people had a screw loose to embarass themselves in public by calling attention to themselves. Now I'm showing them how it's really done for a good cause.
You Wrote:
"Yeah, it's like herding cats. Well, you herd cats by finding the right bait."
My Reply:
I think herding cats is a lot easier than organizing a bunch of alpha male volunteers into an action group devoted to men's rights. There all so... well... independent. The task is daunting, hopeless, impossible, but all that is still a lot easier than doing nothing and living under feminst laws. Lead by example. When you find an approach were people will follow you, you've found the correct "bait." Keep trying new approaches even when people follow. There is no one rule to success, but do keep working with what works best for results. Hang in there, it's going to happen.
See you back in the trenches buddy. Pack a lunch.
Sincerely, Ray
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Right now? You're disposable. This isn't a desire to do right, it's a small measure of damage control. Executive order. It's a bone, warble, it's a bone! He's trying to get away with giving us second best to shut us up. Take it by all means, but don't be bought.
Gonz,
You are sooooooo right. I have no high expectations for the reasons that you state. We know that the men’s movement is filled with setbacks, hard knocks, and outright failures. That is why we have documented a case that will really piss off the public. They cannot deny what we have this because there is just too much proof. I’ve given them just enough to make their mouths water.
Basically, we have a kid with two dads and all of the proof of the paternity fraud and paternity extortion. If they want to mess with that then let them try. We know that the public is 90% in favor of paternity fraud legislation. We have public sympathy on our side. But you are right Gonzo. All this can change in an instant.
Nevertheless, a kid with two dads!?!? It cannot and will not go away. If they fail to negotiate with us and be reasonable then they can explain the public scandal that will follow.
They know it and cannot deny the fact. I've given them just enough proof of our claims to demonstrate that we are VERY serious. Screw with us and we go National in the news. Let them explain on O'Reilly why Susie has two dads paying child support. Be nice and we make Davis look good and a hero that is helping to resolve a serious issue.
But you never know. Anything can happen. We've had our asses creamed before and handed to us on a platter, and it won't be the last time. But I'm not going to lay done and give up because of one beating. They'll have to work really hard before I'll shut-up and go away.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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First, you want to know where I don't live? California.
What is this crap? You live in California!?!? What is the HELL are you doing coming hear and complaining about men's issues and bashing us for when you have every chance to nail some of those male hating businesses that discriminate against men?
Damn Gonzo. Here I thought all this time that given the chance to sue, help raise funds for men's activism, and having the chance at nailing the male-haters that you would jump at it. Yet all you do is criticize me and complain! What a whiner!
Nope. Instead I find you whining about my idealism?!?!? Get off your ass and go find some of those male hating discriminatory businesses. Find a place with ladies night and sue their ass for discriminating against men. Then take some of the funds and help out NCFM, LA. NCFM needs all of the funds they can get to move this cause forward. Got questions on how to proceed? Get off your butt and send some emails to them. But don't come here and complain when you are doing nothing to further the men's movement. It just makes you look like and embittered jerk.
Currently, you look like a whiner and pantyhose feminist. Get off your butt hole and help NCFM, LA take California down!
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Read again - where I don't live is California.
So what do you want? Guess where mail postmarked "Indiana" is going to go if it hits your nutless governor's desk? Can I vote him in or out? No.
FILE 13!
A divorced father's group and an uderground for abused men to go to is about as good as I can get in the apathetic heartr of the one-sided chivalry bible belt. It's like pulling teeth to get that.
I get no funds from anywhere for a "men's" group. I can't even get a meeting place; once it's found out we're for divorced men, they ain't interested.
Last incarnation of the group we let mother's without custody join. They turned out to be pheminist fifth columners who wanted to validate their experiences as more painful then men's because they "carried that child for nine months!" and used typically female shaming language to squelch the men. So, no, that doesn't help, because we "discriminate." Another double standard. It was amusing to have the lady at the library tell me this not 20 feet from a door where the "Female survivors of abuse - ladies only please" was meeting.
If you can come up with a way to get a bunch of tobacco chewing, John Deere hat wearing, pickup driving NASCAR fan tough guy hoosier hicks to organize as men in their interests, I'm all ears. I have a small circle of some guys; trouble is they aren't willing to be public.
We've a lawyer who will give off the record advice for free, but hey, he "Has to practice law in this town."
We've a few business owners who are no pro-male because they have been through a divorce and lost their shirts. They're willing to do cash pay for work under the "petty cash" thing. But this is by necessity a thing to keep quiet.
I've half a dozen or so operate as kind of a ring of "safe houses." Wife seem likely to charge abuse? Need someone to "sell" your car to so exwifey can't get it? Fell behind on CS, and need to not be around home until you can get your payment into the court, lest the sheriff get you?
And even a couple times the old routine of show up and help Dad and the kids move before the wife gets wise. One of the few things that give men approaching an even break. If you have the kids, and don't let them out of your sight and control, and they're registered in school, you have to apply to change custody.
I'd love a website. A newsletter. A regular meeting place. A Marc Angelucci to be the mouthpiece. Hell, I do best as the radical jeering section, I don't give a rats ass about camera time - I'd rather not have it except as calling some phemi-nutted politician a feminazi lapdog. Takes money - money I don't have.
Also, it takes a swell of a movement, something these hilljacks out here won't do - until they really get the shitty end of the stick.
So, say again?
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Read again - where I don't live is California.
Damn. I really wish you did. We could really use your energy out here to nail these male hating bastards.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Friday January 17, @12:28PM EST (#18)
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Go ahead, Mr. Warble. Be another idealist, believe in the system, set yourself unrealistic expectations, and then when you get screwed by a politician, you can become bitter, disillusioned, and burned out. Like Mr. Gonzo.
Or you can walk into things knowing what to expect, and then when it happens, you're prepared with plan B, and your sound bites, and you don't feel screwed.
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by Anonymous User on Friday January 17, @07:58PM EST (#23)
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This is the same thinking that turned feminism into feminazism. Let's scare away anyone with common sense, idealism, and goodwill and get stuck with the bitter, hard core, extreme crew.
California is not the bible belt. You start where a small step can be taken and then go from there.
I cannot believe that people are bickering and complaining because someone is actually doing something. HELLO?
How about supporting each other? If efforts come on many different levels, the chances of success are greater. Even if an effort fails in it's obvious goal, the issue is getting out there and being seen. That in and of itself is success.
The men's movement will not get off the ground if it's members insist on holding it down.
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This is the same thinking that turned feminism into feminazism. Let's scare away anyone with common sense, idealism, and goodwill and get stuck with the bitter, hard core, extreme crew.
Actually, let's do scare away anyone with idealism. Because idealism and common sense are mutually exclusive.
Idealism is the stupid premise of appealing to someone's better nature - nay, counting that sweet reason will touch their better nature - when all indications are that someone doesn't have said better nature.
That's dumb beyond belief.
Wanna know what happens to idealists? They meet reality. Either they become embittered, or burn out and give up, or decide that if you can't beat them, join them. It's never pretty. It sucks to watch someone take someone at their word, build up hopes, make plans, and then Phbbbfpt! Get the chocks knocked out.
Wanna call it negative thinking? Your privelige. Idealists usually refer to a dose of the real world as "negative thinking." Trust me, us realists get damn tired of saying "I told you so" every time we turn around. It's not a pleasure.
What would be a pleasure is someone taking hard won experience, setting reasonable expectations, learning from the past, and not doing the Pollyanna routine of "Oh, no, never plan for the worst or it might happen!" Then when - not if, but WHEN - reality steps in, along with human perversity, there's a backup plan and someone who is steeled to implement it rather than sitting there shell shocked and stammering, "But they said ... they gave their word....But...How could ...this is terrible."
This way people don't quit in despair every time they get a setback, because someone told them what to really expect rather than blowing up pipe dreams and leading every newbie down the primrose path.
No, by all means, do the typically male thing - Jesus H, this is where I really get frustrated with my brother men - of refusing to deal with things as they are, but trying to force on reality a model of how we feel it should be, in defiance of the mountains of evidence that shows it isn't, doesn't want to be, and is not going to change.
Look into the mirror, AU. Or you could accept advice and a road map from someone who has been there. But who the hell am I to tell you, I'm just some old guy that already fought this battle once before. Run over a cliff. Be my guest.
A politicians order to "study" something is nine times out of ten to be translated as "Fuck around and spend money having meaningless meetings and boards of inquiry until people forget about it, unless someone holds our feet to the fire."
Well, go ahead and trust them and take their word that they mean what they see. See what happens. Let down your guard. Hey, they said they wanted to help us, right? They are from the government, and are here to help us, right?
So I don't have to say it later: Told you so.
So if you don't mind, I'll do my small part again, since I am not from CA, so Davis doesn't care what I think except as it reaches a national audience: "What, Davis? That pussy whipped joke of a pheminut puppet? You mead CA-NOW removed their arm from his ass and let him talk for himself? He doesn't have the nuts to go against the pheminazis, the spineless rat bastard." There, his feet are held to the fire. If he does what I predict, I'm right - and it's already been said once, what he is - he's now forced to respond and defend himself. Or not - because it's then indefensible and he can't explain away his vassalage to the phemista special interests.
Now he has the option of proving me wrong, or proving me right. See how this works, this politics thing - you have a jeering section. It's our job to start and keep up a chant of what an SOB they are, and that way when they act in the predicted fashion, against our interests, the groudwork has been laid to get a backlash against him. Or her. This builds momentum. MOMENTUM. Remember that word, it's a state of constantly moving forward.
There's another novel concept the men's movement might try. Constant forward progress. But, hey, it worked for the pheminuts, and we don't want to be like them, do we? You know - SUCCESSFUL?
There's five pounds of clue for you. No charge. Or do I need to get the crayons out?
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Saturday January 18, @04:38PM EST (#31)
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All social power is structured as follows:
*
* *
* *
* *
*********
Pyramids.
If men want to fight and win, they must first understand their enemy. In the Western World (the socialist/communist/fascists system we call capitalism) the top of the pyramid is occupied by business, political and media elites. Men occupy the bottom of the pyramid. Though the top of the pyramid has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, they are not the only ones. (Even your friendly father’s right lawyer, though publicly admitting, “men get short end stick”, may have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.)
I agree with Gonzo: fighting from the bottom up is unwinnable. The only way you can win fighting from the bottom up is with large numbers. When Warble can show me the numbers, I’ll be less skeptical. The only way to win, in my opinion, is to fight directly at the top. To be able to fight this way, one needs to understand catalysis (momentum generators) and chaos theory. I don’t expect the “men’s movement” to win. However, the Western World is headed to a period of great economic uncertainty and a certain amount of shake down can be expected. My eyes will be wide open for opportunity and recompense.
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All social power is structured as follows:
*
* *
* *
* *
*********
Pyramids.
This is pure bullshit, and the rest of the comments are based on a doom-n-gloom elitist theory of power. To some degree this is true and the model is functional. Nevertheless, it does not hold true in a democratic society where power can be exercized by the masses who organize into groups.
If what this person were saying is true then feminist would have never risen to power and such dramatic changes in the law.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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I cannot believe that people are bickering and complaining because someone is actually doing something. HELLO?
How about supporting each other?
LOL - This IS supporting each other, AU. Men arguing and holding each other's feet to the fire. Pushing each other to stop talking, face their fears and DO something.
We need more of this, not less.
Larry
Proud member of the Sperm Cartel
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LOL - This IS supporting each other, AU. Men arguing and holding each other's feet to the fire. Pushing each other to stop talking, face their fears and DO something.
My pissing stream is longer than their is....my pissing stream is longer.....
Yup. I am the clear winner in this pissing contest and the whiners as usual are LOOSERS!!!! Yes sir as usual the whiners do nothing but drink beer, fail to make the phone calls, and make up myths about why we will loose this law suit, fail to oppose a piece of legislation, or fail to get any legislation passed while never making an attempt to even get a bill crafted.
Let JUST ONE of these LOOSERS demonstrate to the rest of us where they are submitting proposals for legislation, finding sponsors for a bill, and negotiating with the anti-male feminists to get a bill passed! THERE AIN'T ANY. LOOSERS ARE LOOSERS because they do NOTHING but whine and complain.
It is better to try and fail then to sit back and be a looser that does nothing. Only a winner will take the risk of loosing, and if they fail they tried. LOOSERS never try to do anything but whine.
Therefore, if NCFM, LA fails then we will have the knowledge of the fact that we are not a bunch of whining father’s rights loosers that do nothing. Then we will get up, change our strategy, and we will try again. Meanwhile the loosers will just be LOOSERS!
Winners always experience many losses before they win. LOOSERS never win because they loose by failing to try.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday January 19, @05:52AM EST (#35)
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Having lived in California and the mid west, and having a brother now living in Indiana I would like to put forth the suppossition that change in American society tends to occur in the largest poplulation and government areas, often not for the best as in the case of feminism.
Having said all that it appears to me if the change is going to begin, it will have to start in those places 1st and permeate into the rest of society.
I recall that the midwest is often a few years behind new trends in the larger population and government centers of the U.S. As noted last election these larger areas tend to be much more liberal.
Likewise, there is no place where feminism is more out of control and running rough shod over men's rights than in these areas. If the begining of the end of abusive feminist policies and laws has to begin in Califonia then so be it. To get this runaway locomotive of male injustice going in a positive direction we must first slow it down and then bring it to a stop (stop the hemoraging, stablize the situation). Yes, I suspect any positive gains made by men in any areas of men's rights will be "strung out" by lengthy legal processes and other stalling or derailing tactics.
We are certainly going to work within the law to help the role of men in society, but law is not the only game in town that controls the opinions and behaviors of people. There are legal and philosophical "holes" in the theories and policies of feminism at every turn and juncture, and they are vulnerable. Let us see what can be done with these holes and maybe we can even "poke" a few new ones. I encourage everyones to participate.
I don't know why we've been arguing.
We have so many opportunities to confront the misandry of feminism, that we do ourselves a disservice if we don't focus and work together. Let us construct the mechanisms, that will tear down this wall of oppresive feminst issues that bars free access between common men and justice. Bring the issue of paternity fraud on again. Any failures we will make will just be lessons in what not to do.
As I have said before we males are so oppressed in so many ways that we have a target rich enviornment of issues to take on. There's nothing like having choices.
Ray
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Likewise, there is no place where feminism is more out of control and running rough shod over men's rights than in these areas.
No lie! And with the VAWA funding of $4 billion coming on we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg!
I don't know why we've been arguing.
Oh. It's just the usual male pissing contest. Gonzo is a great men's activist and we all know it.
He is rightly skeptical because of his being in the Bible belt and getting shot down. That is arguably in some ways the most anti-male place in America.
If I were to generalize then I would suggest that the most anti-male place in America is where we find groups of people clinging to values of chivalry.
Chivalrous groups and individuals are among the most hostile anti-male groups to be found. Look at the Promise Keeper failure. They are the biggest joke around. All they do is raise their hands in the air in prayer to God, fork over millions to preachers that do nothing, and then go home and permit the feminist to continue the assault on our families.
It is my experience that most non-radical feminist will support men's issues and men's groups. The radical feminists are the ones that are the problem within feminism. Male pantyhose radical feminist are even worse. Wanna see hate? Listen to the men.
But then you’ve been on the front line Ray. You already know this so I’m just preaching to the choir.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday January 19, @03:47PM EST (#38)
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You Wrote:
"Chivalrous groups and individuals are among the most hostile anti-male groups to be found. Look at the Promise Keeper failure. They are the biggest joke around. All they do is raise their hands in the air in prayer to God, fork over millions to preachers that do nothing, and then go home and permit the feminist to continue the assault on our families."
My Reply:
Go to the large national feminist organizations web site and type in Promise Keepers in thier search engine and look at the hits. You will see an astonishing level of hatred for all things male and family. If your still up for it type in Christ, Christian, Patriarchy, etc. You will find bigotry on top of bigotry for all things male and Christian in these hate groups. The evidence you find there is more than proof that these people truly belong in the same conversations discussing the dispicable behavior of the Klan and the Nazis.
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You will see an astonishing level of hatred for all things male and family.
Astonishing? No that is normal feminist male hate. Nevertheless, it does not excuse the PK's and chivalrous Christins from damaging and neglecting the rights for males. For example, they are the first to place innocent males under false arrest when there is a false allegation of DV.
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday January 16, @07:25PM EST (#6)
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You Wrote:
"politicians say what needs to be said to shut up talk until a headline appears that can deflect that talk to something else."
My Reply:
Yes, therefore if we can come up with 6 or 7 words that we can put on a 4' X 8' sheet of plywood (remember there's two sides we can do this with) we can drive right down Hollywood Blvd. (where all those male bashing movies come from) and proclaim our message. We could later park it in front of Sheila Keuhl's office, call the press (press release) and walk a picket in front of her office. That's just for starters. This is what I call taking it to the streets (the court of public opinion).
Before this came up, I was thinking of this for the 1st trip down Hollywood Blvd., although unrelated to paternity fraud:
STOP DENYING!
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
BATTERS MEN
Imagine doing this in the most liberal city in the most liberal state in the nation.
A lot of guys loved it and shouted YEA when I drove by with GENDER PROFILING IS HATE CRIME and EQUAL JUSTICE FOR MEN on the one sign I've already made. I guess they don't vote though or I wouldn't have to be doing this. VOTE MEN'S RIGHTS will be on the road for next election (God willing).
The victims of paternity fraud and their families would appreciate anyone's help in coming up with seven words or less about paternity fraud to put on a big sign (4' X 8'). I've been told that seven words or less is the optimum sound bite length on a sign for readability and human comprehension. Sorry we can't pay you monetarily for your creativity, we're all too poor.
Here's all I have so far:
BEEN TOLD YOUR NOT DADDY? (this works well on a bumper sticker where a woman is holding a baby, but not so good on the 4' X 8' sign) I have no way to get the picture on the 4 X 8 sign, and it doesn't address the financial defrauding that's going on.
and
NOT YOUR DNA
YOU STILL PAY (too vauge)
and
NOT YOUR DNA
CA SAYS
YOU STILL PAY (one word over could still fit on sign, but pay for what?)
and
DNA SAYS YOUR
NOT DADDY
CA SAYS
YOU STILL PAY (All the info, but a little too long)
and
NOT HIS BABY
NOT HIS DNA
SO WHY CALIFORNIA
DOES THE MAN STILL PAY? (Has a nice rhythm, again too long, but good on a poster)
Thanks,
Ray
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by Anonymous User on Thursday January 16, @08:55PM EST (#10)
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Here I am talking to myself again. I will now attempt to answer the question, "Why am I doing this?"
Warren Farrell in his book, "The Myth of Male Power" talks about how beneficial (physically and mentally) it is for men to express their frustrated and pent up feelings. How good that is for their health. Conversely it is the goal of feminist philosophy to shame, disempower and financially ruin a man to the point that he has no life left, thereby empowering the female of the species in their own especially twisted and perverted ways. Would anyone be so naive as to dispute that feminist philosophy is a major contributor to the high rate of male suicide in our society today?
With a pick up truck I can show that I'm not ashamed to confront the issues, that feminist use to shame men, by investing under a hundred dollars in plywood, stencils, and paint, then making a sign or signs, and telling the world: "SHAME ON FEMINIST MISANDRY" I have been careful not to use fighting words as they are not protected by free speech. Is there risk involved? Probably. Getting out of bed is the 1st risk I take everyday. Have I had any adverse reactions thus for in about 20 days of doing this? No, none, all positive.
I guess the alternative to not doing this is just to repulsive and unacceptable for me to entertain so I have to do this in order to keep my sanity and survive. I'd rather curl up in the fetal position, and suck my thumb until I die, than live in a disgusting world inundated with man hating feminist laws and unchallenged lies. Ironically, I get the feeling that feminists have already been trying to guide me into that destructive, hopeless behavior with their misandry.
What I'm doing is certainly not for everyone and I would never recommend that anyone do as I'm doing, but in the same breath, "it works for me," and I am feeling a whole lot better about myself, and a whole lot better physically these days. Thanks Warren, each guy must find that outlet in his own constructive and healthful way or ways.
Sincerely, Ray
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by Anonymous User on Thursday January 16, @10:41PM EST (#12)
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Ray,
Your actions very admirable and inspirational. I'm still looking for my niche, but in the meantime I like to write a few letters here and there and such. Ultimately, when I am finished with school, I intend to write a book on the subject. Maybe join the ranks of the illustrious Christina Hoff Sommers... :)
Keep up the activism!
-hobbes
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by Anonymous User on Thursday January 16, @08:18PM EST (#8)
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Nice Job!! I have been a member of NCFM since 1994, and more recently I have enjoyed reading about the successes and well fought near misses of NCFM-LA. I cannot think of a single large, worthwhile project that was not accomplished in stages, by the steady accumulation of experience, and with benefit from dialogue and allies. And caution is not necessarily a bad attribute for a government to have. Good luck with the next steps.
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I hope these ideas help. Sound bites do have a lot of power in the media today.
Agraitear.
Children Shouldn't be tools of Fraud
Paying for Someone Else's Child?
Help Outlaw Paternity Fraud
Outlaw Paternity Fraud NOW!
Grey Davis - Proud Supporter of Paternity Fraud
CA - Land of Legal Paternity Fruad
That Child Yours? Doesn't Matter in CA. $$$
Fathers are more than walking ATM's
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Grey Davis - Proud Supporter of Paternity Fraud
We should hold off on this one. If Gov. Gray Davis comes through on his promise then we should thank him. I'll give more details later.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Friday January 17, @12:56PM EST (#19)
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You Wrote:
"If anybody doubts that California family courts are corrupt beyond belief then they are foolish idiots. NCFM, LA in cooperation with CAPF has uncovered definitive proof that California allows fraud moms to name two fathers and collect child support from both! I'll be posting the proof in a couple of days."
My Reply:
Don't forget paternity fraud is not the ultimate problem that we face it's the system, politicians, and people that created, perpetuated, and defended this system that are enemies of the State, enemies of the American constitution and enemies of American freedom. They are the ultimate evil that must be permanently changed or go.
I will be disappointed if we do not get some punitive awards against the corrupt politicians and their ilk who have been involved in supporting the criminal paternity fraud practices of the State of California. The egregious nature of this injustice against non DNA dads is despicable beyond belief.
Sincerely,Ray
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Paternity Fraud Ruins Lives: He Pays, Mummy Lies
I know it's eight words. I thought I'd give it a go though.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday January 23, @03:52PM EST (#41)
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Excellent one! We've gotten a good amount of thought provoking sayings from this exercise.
Thanks to All, Ray
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It is often relied upon by feminists that paternity fraud within a marriage is based (and justified) by 500 year old common law that declares the husband the father of all children born within a marriage. However, what they conveniently leave out is this: That same common law declares the children as property of the husband. This is because in those days children we're a financial asset that worked the farm etc. Upon divorce, the husband kept the kids...absolutely. Therefore, under this same common law oft cited by feminists, upon divorce the man would keep the kids 100% of the time, and the ex-wife would be the one to pay child support. That feminists conveniently pick and choose which elements of 500 year old law they want to keep and which elements to ignore is akin to a baseball team being able to decide which innings in a game count towards the final tally.
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by Anonymous User on Friday January 17, @08:04PM EST (#24)
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Quote "Upon divorce, the husband kept the kids...absolutely. "
Were women allowed to divorce 500 years ago?
I agree with your point but there was a possible flaw in your arguement. Just thought I would point it out before you tried to use that same arguement on someone who dissagreed with you.
Leave out that one sentence, and I think it would be a hard arguement to dispute. Jen
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Five hundred years ago - well, there was no divorce, so men weren't allowed to either. The church governed that. That's what that whole Church of England thing with Henry VIII was all about.
Divorce law, too, up to very, very recently, required assent of both parties, or required fault to be proven before one was granted.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Sunday January 19, @04:53AM EST (#34)
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You Wrote:
"The church governed that(divorce). That's what that whole Church of England thing with Henry VIII was all about."
My Reply:
Henry's 6 wives: divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived.
I believe infidelity was the only valid reason allowed for divorce in the New Testament 500 years ago. When Henry the VIII wanted to dump his 1st wife (Catherine of Aragon) he quoted a section from the Old Testament saying that you shouldn't marry a woman who had been married to your brother. He had already done this, but was trying to say that was wrong and that he should now divorce her. He wanted a male heir and his wife had only given him a daughter (later Queen Mary). His wife was related to the king of Spain, who was Catholic as well as Catherine of Aragon. The Pope would not allow the divorce so Henry VIII started the Church of England with him as head, and guess what that church allowed his divorce.
Anne Bolyn (sp?) Henry's 2nd wife was apparently framed for adultery and was divorced and beheaded. She only bore a daughter (later Queen Elizabeth I). His 3rd wife died, but after bearing a son (Edward VI). His 4th wife was German and they divorced, no children, but I forget the specifics except they didn't care for each other and were both happy to be rid of the other. The fifth wife cheated on Henry (she was young, he was old), no children and she was divorced and beheaded for adultery. The 6th Katherine Parr survived him (no children). If you want to know what divorce was like 500 years ago you need look no further then the life of Henry the VIII. You might say he wrote the book on it.
I wrote all this from memory so if some of you from "across the pond" who are more well versed in England's history than I find error(s), please correct.
Western divorce laws have probably undergone as much or more change in the last century as they have undergone in the preceding 1000 years or more. You could probably make this same statement about the last 50 years and be even more precise.
Liberal divorce is a modern convenience and those laws favoring the female are even more recent.
Surprisingly most "very conservative" Christian churches are still back there 500 or 1700 years ago in what they allow their congregates to do in matters of divorce, after all the Protestant Bible is the same one as that one collected under Constantine in the 4th century (minus the apocrypha I believe), and that's what they go by.
Ray
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I spoke with the office of Governor Davis so that we could clarify the purpose of the Executive Order and the role of the DCSS in helping to address the issue of paternity fraud. To review the Executive Order states, "I direct the Department of Child Support Services to work with the legislature and advocates on both sides of this issue to develop recommendations that will address paternity fraud."
This does not mean that the DCSS is taking sides. They are simply helping with the technicalities so that Governor Davis will not have to veto a paternity fraud bill again. AB2240 was only vetoed because of a technicality and not because the office opposes paternity fraud legislation.
The response of NCFM, LA is that "NCFM, LA is encourage by the recognition of the issue of paternity fraud, and that there is an Executive Order directing the DCSS to work with the legislature on the issue."
Even as I speak the process is moving forward and we are negotiating with the opposition to craft language that will take the form of a new bill. That is all I can say at this time.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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