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Flores also stated that he spoke with another male student and asked “if he had any problems. He stated that he kept his mouth shut even if he had questions because he felt that it would ensure his chances of graduation. I asked him if it didn’t bother him when female student started to put men down in general in front of him. He stated that yes, it did bother him but he kept his mouth shut so that he would not be labeled.”
There seems to be no question that Flores felt that his oppression, for being male, was a prime reason for his drastic, final actions.
Another broken man lashes out in mad desperation.
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In the second to last paragraph in the letter he asks, "Do I have regrets?"
The first regret that he mentions...
"I regret that my ex-wife has estranged my children from me."
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday October 30, @09:55PM EST (#4)
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I work at a college in California and the same feminazi crap goes on there. Sometimes you hear their male bashing lies starting up and you start to feel sick and you just want to puke right in their faces. I hate it.
Talk about a hostile environment. Schools are the worst. Their male bashing, political correct Klan is the most bigotted bunch of pure Democrat garbage on earth. That's right 99% of them are Democrats.
I would never, ever do what that nursing student did, but I can sure understand how a weaker person could easily be driven to do what he did.
The abuse coming from the bigotted minds of those politically correct tyrants know as academicians is the height of closed minded oppression and it absoslutely stifles any true resemblance to diversity in the workpplace.
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I am a male Registered Nurse and a Vietnam Combat Veteran.The acts was clearly criminal, cruel,unjustified,heinous, and unforgiveable. I have an abhorence for violence as a means of addressing political disputes because of my experience as a combat soldier in Vietnam. My personal condolonces to the families of the victims, their friends, the faculty at the school, and the students of the school.
However, it is clear that his acts were provoked by faculty,staff, and students of the nursing school by a pattern of sociopathic,unjust,conspiratorial,gender-feminist- sexist anti-male,
oppressive, and unjust behavior that was designed to maliciously and unjustly damage him financially, emotionally, and through his career.
This same is the norm in nursing and in nursing schools. I filed a pro-se law suit against Texas Woman's University School of Nursing, CA-3-81-0001-F, many years ago alleging the same things that Flores alleged.
Males who demonstrate, in nursing and in nursing school, any kind of self respect or assertive behavior, as Flores and others have stated, face sexist discrimination and oppression.
The really dangerous aspect of what is being taught in nursing schools is that the type of sociopathic behavior taught as the norm in the same endangers the public health and welfare for obvious reasons. Patients of both genders will be victimized by nurses who have been inculcated with the sociopathic,authoritarian and unjust type of of behavior which Flores described. Further, good and ethical nurses of both genders face academic failure if they do not demonstrate this same type of sociopathic behavior while sociopathic nurses are rewarded with graduation. I attempted, through my legal action, to correct, in part this situation. However, I could not stand alone against the State and it's allies with the result that I settled out of court agreeing not to proceed. It's time for the American government and the American people to realize from the aforementioned that nursing and nursing schools have a dangerous problem as per the aforementioned and to take immediate steps to correct the same.
C.V. Compton Shaw
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The person feels as much depression as someone who commits suicide. Which is usually quite a lot. He also feels a certain individual/group/organisation is responsible for his misery. Thus he takes his last revenge.
A purely suicidal person blames him/herself much more then anyone else. These people have much depression and little anger at others.
Of course some terrorists have different motivation. They believe they are going to heaven.
PUNISHMENT AND CRIME
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First we have black man shooting up the DC area after several attempts at maintaining ties with his family, then becomeing frustrated and homicidal (and possibly suicidal as well) then we have this student in AZ DOCUMENTING his frustrations.
Yet the media will find a way to ignore all this.
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"Yet the media will find a way to ignore all this."
Its the same with Marc Lepine et al. Man takes to much then goes nutso. When a woman does it she's a heroinne for standing up to it all and she's labled the victim. Nice tauch I'd say.
I agree this is not the last of these events. It happens all the time with men killing their wives in vengence against the Justice System, being denied all their rights on one persons say so. A person who no doubt has a great deal to gain from it all.
There is a quote in one of my law books something along the lines of "when laws are off balance and unfair the end result is more crime"
I wonder if some of those Judges and Lawyers should go back to school or not.
.
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Thursday October 31, @04:37AM EST (#9)
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...And this sort of thing is happening more and more often.
In EACH and EVERY case like this I've seen reported in the media, rarely if EVER is it mentioned how the "murderer" was feeling and what drove him to think that killing was his only recourse. They (the media) always say things like: "He hated women". Or "He had a problem with women" or some other simplistic malarky along those lines.
Why do guys like Robert Stewart Flores, Marc Lepine, and a growing number of men commit this TYPE of murder ?
The PRESSURE, that's why. They were wrong to do it, but it was the pressure. And pressure without an out-let is disasterous. We Men have no out-lets, to speak of. ESPECIALY if we want to say anything about women. It doesn't matter if those "gripes" we have about women are real or imagined, we SHOULD have the right to speak out. But we don't. And the penalty for any man doing so will have consequences much more DIRE than mere "public shameing". A man can lose his livelyhood, his reputation, his family,
...his mind...!
With this kind of oppression, And yes, it IS oppression, that we as men face EVERY single day of our lives, should it be any wonder when more and more men are saying "I just can't TAKE IT anymore!"?
If you squeeze a tube of toothpaste with the lid ON, is it really such a suprise when it explodes...?
Thundercloud.
"Hoka-hey!"
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Here is the text of the letter I sent to the AZ 'public in PHX and the Tucson paper:
When I first heard the news from Tucson, my reaction was that here was most likely yet another case of a divorced dad snapping under
pressure. I read the text of Robert Flores' letter and found nothing there to surprise me. Certainly I cannot agree that murder is any solution, and obviously men in his situation can and do deal with things differently, yet I've heard nearly the same set of problems from hundreds of men over the past few years.
Until August of this year, I published an e-zine called The DesertLight Journal, which dealt with issues of divorce and domestic violence, and men's rights (or lack thereof) in these cases. Although personal issues forced me to suspend publication, in August I had about 50,000 readers in 41 countries. Mine is one of hundreds of similar websites focused on these issues, and there are dozens of offline groups as well in English-speaking countries worldwide, representing thousands of members.
Men are in serious trouble these days. The groups and websites have been established to provide help, and support for the men who are finding themselves the unwitting victims of a system that
unilaterally believes that men are pigs. From the divorce courts to the workplace, men are routinely exiled from their families and stripped of possessions and livelihood in the name of political correctness. Ordinary human rights that once were a given, guaranteed to all, are no longer accessible to men in many cases. Often men caught up in these situations turn to drugs or alcohol,self-medicating against overwhelming problems with no solution. Some turn to suicide. Depression among divorced men is nearly universal, with the accompanying irrational behavior a common trait.
Several times I've seen it mentioned in reference to Robert Flores' case that he should have'gotten help.' There seems to be a common presumption that help is available for these men, when in fact there is nothing. There are perhaps a handful of psychiatrists or counselors in this country who understand these men's problems, but even they cannot change the root of the problem--which is a Draconian, unrealistic divorce system, and a pervasive anti-male attitude in society.
Robert Flores is not the first to deal with his problems in a horrifically wrong fashion, nor will he be the last. Until anti-male hate is no longer fashionable, until the divorce industry stops destroying families and lives, there will be more cases where men completely lose their sense of right and wrong and reason...
--------------
It's far too long to be published, but at least the powers that be at those papers will know there IS a different viewpoint.
TWS
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As always, you make your valid points succinctly and clearly, Trudy. It's good to see you're still around. I hope things are going better for you and that the problems you're dealing with are getting straightened out. Thanks for the post.
To those who make the point that Flores' letter gives us only one side of a story, this is true, but it is a side that I and all too many other men have been living for far too long (without the final break to madness). TGK is right, we all have our breaking points. Fortunately, I am far from mine, and I draw farther away every day in part because of the support and sense of justice that I find in the men's movement.
As I've said, it would be wrong to honor Flores for his murders. Nevertheless, while we hold him accountable, we must also hold accountable the anti-male bigotry and hatefulness that so pervade our society. There is little doubt in my mind that the evils of radical feminism and all of its hateful manifestations (such as the divorce industry) did serve to drive Flores to his horrific actions. Letting the radical feminists off the hook would be as great a mistake as letting Flores off the hook. As Trudy points out, "Robert Flores is not the first to deal with his problems in a horrifically wrong fashion, nor will he be the last. Until anti-male hate is no longer fashionable, until the divorce industry stops destroying families and lives, there will be more cases where men completely lose their sense of right and wrong and reason..."
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by Anonymous User on Friday November 01, @01:48PM EST (#39)
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I just wanted to say 'thanks' to Trudy, as well.
Thanks Trudy, for takeing the time and trouble of posting the article.
And I think Thomas speaks for all of us, when he says, 'I hope things are going better for you'.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka-hey!"
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A purely suicidal person blames him/herself much more then anyone else. These people have much depression and little anger at others.
This is just flat out not true. Anger at others can and often is a symptom of depression with complications of anxiety that results in a person being easily aggravated.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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First off: Many psychological evaluations and conclusions are more an 'art form' than true science. Sure, I'll be debated on the subject, but swaying me from this stance is rather impossible. Of course I have reasons, yet I choose to not list them here. It’s late and I’m tired.
Second: This guy is not a poster child for the cause of men...he was what he was; a coward that took the cheap, lazy, liar's way out. Just as it is repulsive to consider Andrea Yates as a martyr for women's causes, this guy is a repulsive artifact truly unrelated to the men's awareness movement.
Be smart people, and choose your fights wisely. Otherwise, we'll look like fools, and appear just as NOW and their ilk appear to the general, intelligent populous: Sordid.
Mitchell
Please forgive any errors in this post...I'm almost asleep at the wheel! Thanks, and goodnight.
"An ambiguous perspective is all you can hope for when initially confronted by that which you do not know."
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I'll be one of the insensitive bastards who agree with you.
The guy took the coward's way out. I have trouble feeling sorry for the man, myself, and it disturbs me when so many members here seem to be portraying the man as a suicidal victim of circumstance.
Josh
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> and it disturbs me when so many members here
> seem to be portraying the man as a suicidal
> victim of circumstance.
Well... I do not see such arguments ANY MORE IMMORAL then arguments justifying Aileen Wurnos's actions. And yet a film praising and justifying her ran several times on LifetimeTV -- accepted by mainstream American public.
Should masculists be held to higher moral standards then other Americans?
PUNISHMENT AND CRIME
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by Anonymous User on Thursday October 31, @12:17PM EST (#17)
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Well... I do not see such arguments ANY MORE IMMORAL then arguments justifying Aileen Wurnos's actions. And yet a film praising and justifying her ran several times on LifetimeTV -- accepted by mainstream American public. Should masculists be held to higher moral standards then other Americans?
This is a ridiculous argument. Are you saying that men's activists should be no better than feminists? Are you saying masculism should be an exact mirror of feminism? I thought men's activists were here to TURN AROUND the damage feminism has caused, not just create a male version of it. Sheesh.
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> This is a ridiculous argument. Are you saying
> that men's activists should be no better than
> feminists?
What I am saying is that anyone who holds men to a higher moral standard then women (millions of viewers of LifetimeTV film about Wurnos) is both a misogynist and a misandrist. Misoginyst part is that they consider men better then women. Misandrist part is that they still expect more from men.
> Are you saying masculism should be an exact
> mirror of feminism?
Each masculist can choose his/her own path. Some can reinvent the bicycle. Some can rely on feminist experience and ideology.
PUNISHMENT AND CRIME
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> This is a ridiculous argument. Are you saying
> that men's activists should be no better than
> feminists?
What I am saying is that anyone who holds men to a higher moral standard then women (millions of viewers of LifetimeTV film about Wurnos) is both a misogynist and a misandrist. Misoginyst part is that they consider men better then women. Misandrist part is that they still expect more from men.
> Are you saying masculism should be an exact
> mirror of feminism?
Each masculist can choose his/her own path. Some can reinvent the bicycle. Some can rely on feminist experience and ideology.
PUNISHMENT AND CRIME
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by Anonymous User on Friday November 01, @02:35PM EST (#40)
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AU (#17)...,
I don't think anyone here is holding up Flores as a martyr, or a hero for the men's movement.
What is being said, if I read the posts clearly, is; (A)Men are given NO outlet, either in media, education, justice or society as a whole.
(B) When Men kill Women there is NEVER any other reason given, especially by our media, other than he is an "evil" "misogynist". who "hates women" for "no good reason".
But when Women kill Men, all sorts of excuses are thrown about. I.E. "We live in a patriarchal society", "All Men are evil and deserve it", "Men are pigs", "men hate women, so it's okay",(?) "He was "abuseive"", "postpartum depression", "P.M.S.", "She's been tired lately." and on and on and on. ANY excuse will do, just as long as it absolves a woman from guilt.
(C) When men murder women, they are called villans and evil. (rightly so.) and are held up as "Proof" of the "patriarchy".
But when women murder men they are held up as heroes. And movies, both cinematic and televised, are made to celebrate their "Heroism".
And (D) Though this is a bit off the subject, Our media GLORIFIES violence against men. ESPECIALY if that violence is meaded out by a female. this type of female-on-male violence is usualy portrayed as sadistic and\or sexual.
I include this because this phenomenon has a very REAL effect on both men and women in society. and I personaly hold the media HIGHLY resposible for the current "gender problems".
As to those of us involved in the men's movement wanting "Things to go the other way", against women instead of men. The ansewer is; No.
No man in the Men's movement that "Hates", or wishes harm on women, is an acceptable "member".
What we are doing here, AU, is simply dicussing the very glareing double standards, imposed against men in society. Double standards that are ignored and dismissed away as a non-issue. as are the majority of men's issues and conserns.
MENSACTIVISM.ORG, is one of the VERY few places we can discuss these matters in (realitive) "saftey".
I hope I have helped to clarify.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka-hey!"
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"MENSACTIVISM.ORG, is one of the VERY few places we can discuss these matters in (realitive) "saftey".
I hope I have helped to clarify."
I for one am tired of playing it 'safe'.
Im not talking about picking up a gun like that flores guy, but I am talking about speaking out and speaking out loud. We can do this politely and there are tactful ways in whome we can get our message across to we will have to work at it to find them.
I really liked what you wrote here Thundercloud.
I agree no one wants to get to the point where we are making these guys heros. The point is, and its a funny thing because its a joint issue with feminists and masculists, and that is we want to reduce the murders of women. Lets point this out to anyone who will listen. If we keep having a common annomaly of men killing their wives we have to start asking why this is happening and we have to start asking beyond the regular scope of "well he just hates women". Its far to simplistic and not productive. Lets start pointing out the irregularities in the laws. The government doesnt want to admit this basically because the government and the justice system is largely responsible for the problem. The media protects the government because the government protects the media.
Secondly I want to simply ask the question "whats in it for the media, to create such hostility against men and women".
This I feel is a very valid question, maybe its so obvious to me but if anyone can tell me I'd appreciate it.
.
Dan Lynch
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Should masculists be held to higher moral standards then other Americans?
I think we should hold ourselves to far higher standards than society holds the genfems.
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Agree that this is not a poster child...OTOH I think the posts point out that the media is quick to look for reasons a woman may have been violent and out of control and will tend to overlook the same for men. It's a double standard. One of many.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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"Agree that this is not a poster child...OTOH I think the posts point out that the media is quick to look for reasons a woman may have been violent and out of control and will tend to overlook the same for men. It's a double standard. One of many."
Then lets accept neither. And continue our fight for the return of decency fairness and civility.
.
Dan Lynch
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Hi,
It doesn't seem to me that anyone here agrees with Flores' actions. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I haven't been given that impression. I do believe that your warning is well taken, however. We do need to be careful not to create some kind of martyr out of a person who did something completely horrible.
That being said, I see no problem at all with trying to find out why he did what he did, speculate about the causes, and search for solutions to help keep this from happening in the future, if possible. I think it is important to address his reasons, as he stated them, in determining how best to revise the current system. This is not about blaming the nursing school or feminism, IMNHO, nor is it about heroizing Flores. Something about the way the system works now resulted in this event. If it's not an efficient system, let's *all* work to redesign the system so that it runs better for everybody.
I believe that it is possible that we will continue to have more events like this. I sincerely hope not, but we most assuredly will not be working to stop it if we merely call him a "coward" and throw him out as a crackpot. Nor will we be doing anything constructive if he becomes a "poster child" for the men's movement.
I don't know if this is making any sense, but that's my $.02.
Sean
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I agree with Sean/Severin. I see no one here trying to excuse what Flores did. However, we would be making a grave mistake by ignoring Flores' message.
Numerous studies have shown a strong correlation between being physically abused as a child and being violent as an adult. (Offhand I don't have citations, but I've seen plenty of reports.) In part because we know this, it would be foolish to ignore the problem of child abuse.
Likewise, if the anti-male hatred that prevades our society causes some men to snap and strike out the way Flores did, it would be foolish to ignore that misandry and its many manifestations. Some people will see this statement as an excuse for Flores. It is not.
I would make a similar statement about Yates. The blaming, by many feminists, of her husband was an outrage. However, if post-partum psychosis is a real and increasingly common problem, we would be foolish to ignore it and its cause(s).
Radical feminists have turned the nation's schools into hotbeds of anti-male hatred. The actions of Flores may well have been, in part, a response to that. Society needs to realize this and fight the pervasive misandry.
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Let me thank all of you for coming to the table and voicing/extracting/understanding your opinions. This is exactly the calm, relevant debate that the extreme feminist movement lacks. In my humble opinion, our fairness petition is progressing in a fundamentally fair, inoffensive way.
I want you to know that my post was/is a sincere statement of what we should NOT do, and a simple test of our collective purpose.
I absolutely agree with the imperative need to explore and decipher the 'logic' that forms within ANYONE experiencing such malevolently emotive actions, whether they be man or woman, and attempt to find a common ground within this society to break away from old and relatively new ‘gender specific’ dogma that does indeed contribute to such events.
That being said (and so poorly, I’m sorry to have reread and discovered), I stand by my statement of the marriage between controlled, responsive diligence and due course discretion.
Have a great Halloween, everyone.
Mitchell A. Smith
"An ambiguous perspective is all you can hope for when initially confronted by that which you do not know."
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Well, the media has turned Aileen Wurnos into a hero. Which is no less immoral. Is there any chance the guy saw the LifetimeTV film portraying Wurnos as a hero and decided to copycat her?
PUNISHMENT AND CRIME
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by Anonymous User on Thursday October 31, @12:19PM EST (#19)
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Well, the media has turned Aileen Wurnos into a hero. Which is no less immoral. Is there any chance the guy saw the LifetimeTV film portraying Wurnos as a hero and decided to copycat her?
This is still a ridiculous argument.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday October 31, @12:10PM EST (#16)
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Be smart people, and choose your fights wisely. Otherwise, we'll look like fools, and appear just as NOW and their ilk appear to the general, intelligent populous: Sordid.
Well said, Mitchell. Expect to be called a troll, though, because you dared to disagree.
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Well said, Mitchell. Expect to be called a troll, though, because you dared to disagree.
Since he didn't post anonymously, that disqualifies him from being a troll.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Friday November 01, @02:47PM EST (#41)
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Gonzo is right.
And, I guess I have to explain this again, Simply "disagreeing" with posted comments does not make someone a "Troll". It is the MANNER in which someome "disagrees".
Mitchell did just fine.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka-hey!"
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I want to thank Mitchell for his post. While we have to pay attention to motives for murder/suicides that are driven in part by oppression of men, we have to be careful not to turn someone like Flores into a poster child for the men's movement.
Whatever we do, the genfems will claim that we are attempting to excuse Flores, but we've never been able to stop them from lying. (I don't think Mitchell is attempting something underhanded like the genfems will attempt. His warning seems sincere and valid.)
Again, while it would be foolish to honor or excuse Flores, it would also be foolish to ignore the wrongs that drove him to his actions.
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Thomas:
Very well spoken. My sentiments also. This is truly a great tragedy.
From this man's letter, the issues as I see them comprising this tragic story are:
1. Murder/Suicide
2. Battered Man Syndrome
3. Hard working intelligent man
4. Over worked man
5. Burnt out man
6. Financially ruined man
7. Hopeless, depressed man
8. Honorable Discharged Gulf War Veteran
9. Broken marriage/family
10. Move away mom
11. Misses kids
12. Prejudiced, anti-male educational system
13. Physical injuries and illness
14. Physical and mental pain
15. Unrelenting Draconian, blood-sucking, back-braking child support payments
16. Feelings of powerlessness and lack of control of events
17. Feelings of failure
18. Loneliness, no social life, just work and school
19. looming job loss, due to LVN license loss, due to Child support arears, due to... I forget, and I'm probably being redundant with this list, but all of these issues just seemed to be dovetailing in on each other for this poor guy.
All four of the lives lost were productive citizens who had much to offer. Unfortunately, one of them had nothing left to give. It had all been taken away, and because no one saw that, or reached out to soothe his hurt or just give him a break, four people are dead. Again, that's no excuse to do what he did. The honorable thing to have done would have been to have declared bankruptcy (cut his losses and ran), and joined the honorable ranks of those men who carry their whole lives in a shopping cart, and just disappear. "Men are disposable," and no one would have ever seen this man slip silently into the subhuman existence that our feminist controlled society creates for so many men in America every day.
I guess he just decided to go out with a bang, and call attention to the epidemic. Is anyone hearing the call for help from all us men yet, or will all the clear signals that went unaddressed for this battered man be played out again? Will this evil scenario repeat itself again and again? Will our male bashing feminist laws continue to manufacture still other men to live out this fateful role?
I'd like for that question to be answered by this former citizen's elected representatives, all of them.
Sincerely, Ray
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I 'urge' all of you to not fall into the trap of labeling this person a 'poor guy'. It's ludicrous to espouse such a thing! What happened to him may have been unfair (we do not know all of the facts in this case), it may have been unkind, and it may have been morally negligent, but it does not lead me to believe that this fellow did nothing more than allow himself to become a hapless caricature of his own misfortune.
Everything written in his letter to the media is from a single, very specific point of view. I am saddened by the event, surely. I am not, however, going to plead his case for him AFTER his extraordinary actions. In my view, he lost his right to a fair public hearing after killing someone without being genuinely, physically provoked.
I’ll try to be even more clear: I will gladly discuss this man’s condition, his dilemma, but not in the context that he was a ‘poor guy’. Please refer to my previous post, now enclosed:
“ Let me thank all of you for coming to the table and voicing/extracting/understanding your opinions. This is exactly the calm, relevant debate that the extreme feminist movement lacks. In my humble opinion, our fairness petition is progressing in a fundamentally fair, inoffensive way.
I want you to know that my post was/is a sincere statement of what we should NOT do, and a simple test of our collective purpose.
I absolutely agree with the imperative need to explore and decipher the 'logic' that forms within ANYONE experiencing such malevolently emotive actions, whether they be man or woman, and attempt to find a common ground within this society to break away from old and relatively new ‘gender specific’ dogma that does indeed contribute to such events.
That being said (and so poorly, I’m sorry to have reread and discovered), I stand by my statement of the marriage between controlled, responsive diligence and due course discretion. “
Again, I urge you to see this for what it was, and to not let an ‘agenda’ screen your thoughts. Refer to the deceased as Mr. Flores, then outline what happened, then enter into a discussion of ‘cause and effect’. Ray has initiated a good beginning to this end, and if we can remove ourselves from the emotional aspect, begin the analysis of how we may start meaningful dialogue before this kind of thing happens again, maybe then we can level the playing field for EVERYONE, and allow those misguided feminist chapters (some are truly working towards a greater good for all) a peek into an honorable, sustainable ideology.
I have to say it: I love being a man!
Mitchell A. Smith
"An ambiguous perspective is all you can hope for when initially confronted by that which you do not know."
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You can't debate whether this guy did right or wrong because it's a moral gimme. Mass murder is wrong, always wrong.
Don't blind people to this message by lighting bombs and throwing them back at our side, though. It's the trap of the pheminists to get you to react emotionally and sabotage ourselves. 3 billion men in the world. One man going on a rampage is a statistical aberration.
But *MEN* all the time are vio....
Really? Sources, please.
There's your response.
You might run the risk of turning people off - and I'm going to put my psych classes to some use - because you're in denial.
Yes, I said denial - it's classic. "Coward's way out" and such words are chest beating. "Ug! Me big STRONG man! Me NEVER do! Me STRONG! Ug!" Horsecrap. Everyone - no exceptions, not you, not me, not anyone - has a breaking point. Some breaking points are socially acceptable. Some aren't. And if you claim for a minute that there is nothing in the world that couldn't put you up in the proverbial bell tower, you're in denial.
Before you go calling someone anything, think for a moment that there but solely for the grace of God go you. Admit it - it is your strength. Once you admit it - once you look at it, and put a face and a name to it, it can no longer sneak up on you. Deny it, don't think about it - who's to say whether you might find the haze clearing on a parking lot somewhere, looking at the gun in your hand and asking, "What have I done?"
I can't say I have "Stepped back from the abyss" because I have never been that close. But I have felt the rage boiling up in me, and from time to time the fleeting thought has crossed my mind. I've been fortunate enough to have a place to walk away from it all until a cooler head prevails. And the operative word is "fortunate."
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Thanks for you response, gonzo. However, your psych classes did you a disservice in this instance as denial requires one to 'avoid', or attempt to silence the truth. Wanting to look at this from a detached, centrist view demands a different point of reference from all sides, and that in turn negates your supposition of denial.
I agree everyone has a breaking point, but what do you call a calculating person who uses a gun to assault defenseless (very likely defenseless, that is) persons?
I’d call that person a coward. How ‘bout you?
If a mother’s/father’s baby is crying, and hasn’t stopped for 3 days straight, and he/she has no relatives, no money, no place to ‘place’ this child, and his/her threshold is broken, and he/she silences the child – permanently - what does that make that person?
I’d call that person a coward. How ‘bout you?
Hey, what about the sniper? The woman who ran over her husband, killing him, for his adultery? Susan Smith? Any of the 19 9/11 hijackers? Charles Manson?
Etc, etc.
If you want to continue this out of thread, you can reach me at ppmnow@hotmail.com.
Mitchell A. Smith
PS. Although it’s been 15 years since I attended psych classes in college, I still read current theory on the ‘living, thinking’ brain, and I can say without hesitation that many psych theories are, to plagiarize you, horsecrap.
"An ambiguous perspective is all you can hope for when initially confronted by that which you do not know."
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by Anonymous User on Friday November 01, @03:20PM EST (#42)
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Everyone - no exceptions, not you, not me, not anyone - has a breaking point. Some breaking points are socially acceptable. Some aren't.
Stephen King refers to this as the "breaking strain" in many of his novels. The one novel he will tell you he regrets ever having published is Rage in which a teenager goes homicidal on his classmates and a teacher (holds them hostage then kills them in the school). He regrets it because a kid actually did that after reading his novel.
I disagree with him that he should regret it. It is not his fault the kid was a looney tune. It is my theory that the kid was already looking for a way to go bonkers before he ever read King's novel.
I can say without a doubt that I have a breaking strain, but I can also tell you that actually committing murder is not how I dealt with it.
Gonzo, you are right that everyone has a breaking strain, but you are wrong that it will undeniably put you in the "bell tower" when you reach it. As you pointed out, the statistics are against that.
Different people are going to break in different ways.
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I think that there are two debates going on here, both valid.
First the non-debate over whether Mr. Flores was somehow a "victim". Some people here are saying that he was, while others want to avoid saying this because it will be misconstrued and used against the men's movement. Even tht title of this discussion:A Man Driven To Suicide/Murder?" begs this question. Was he "driven," or was he just a murderer? Some don't want to say, or even hit that he was "driven," lest the pheminists accuse us of trying to excuse him. More on that later.
For my part, I understand the tendency to label him a victim. I believe that that is, in part, what he was. Rather than looking at him in isolation, however, perhaps it would be better to look at it in a larger context. If society continues to treat men with the kind of prejudice and pressure that Mr. Flores experienced, then here and there, somewhere there will be more men as weak as Mr. Flores who will snap in the wrong way and start killing people. It's not a value judgement; it's simply cause and effect.
However, as I said, I understand the reluctance to label him a "victim," because feminism has expropriated this for their own use. In fact, I find the fact that feminists excuse behaviour that they can explain illogical. Only from the political point of view does it make sense: if a woman commits a crime, all you have to do is explain her motivations and so far as feminism is concerned, you have excused her actions. That is why feminists hate those who try to explain the actions of men: they think that we're trying to excuse male batterers and murderers. In fact, this whole thing is a fatal flaw introduced into our notion of justice by feminism and its lap dog, sociology: the idea that behaviour explained is behaviour exhonerated. Garbage! We can explain the actions of Mr. Flores all we want; we can explain how "anyone else" in his situation would have snapped; we can explain until our faces turn blue, but he is still a reprehensible murderer.
Nonetheless, the larger society has been sold on the idea that explanation is exhoneration, and we must be sensitive to that.
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When I first heard of Flores, I thought, "What a whacko." When I read his letter, I stood in stark horror as I realized how many times some of his thoughts had erupted from my brain.
I never put any of those thoughts into action. But God help me, I see where he got them. I've heard the same helpless rage from countless men who are shit upon socially and legally at the hands of vindictive ex-girlfriends or ex-wives.
My experiences, plus theirs - It's made me very very gun-shy about women. I generally avoid socializing them, and it takes many moons for me to take the measure of most to where I feel confortable. Being a forty-ish type I generally don't fall victim to raging hormones, and when I feel the need for sex, quite frankly, I either honestly get a hooker, or engage a few ladies to whom I've established a similar type of relationship. It may be neurotic, but it's my neurosis, I'm comfortable with it, and I can live with it. All in all, it's one of the more harmless ones about.
Lessee....
I agree everyone has a breaking point, but what do you call a calculating person who uses a gun to assault defenseless (very likely defenseless, that is) persons?
Provided he or she sees them as defenseless. I'm unconvinced either way with Flores. May be he's raving. It has the ring of the truth as he saw it.
and he/she silences the child – permanently - what does that make that person?
A murderer. Coward? Hmm. I dunno - just because something requires no courage doesn't make it cowardly. Now abandoning a child in danger to save your own life....
Hey, what about the sniper?
Anti-american muslim terrorist
The woman who ran over her husband, killing him, for his adultery?
Murder in the 2nd degree under NY law.
Susan Smith?
Murder in the 1st. Injection bait.
Any of the 19 9/11 hijackers?
Terrorist scum.
Charles Manson?
A genuine fruitcake. You ever heard this guy? He makes Marilyn Manson look like Pat Boone.
(Jesus, I'm dating myself, aren't I?)
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Friday November 01, @03:29PM EST (#43)
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(("Is anyone hearing the call for help from all us men yet,"))
I think folks hear it, Ray, I just doubt they're LISTENING.
That's the problem.
There's a Samali saying I heared once and it applies to those who SHOULD be listening. It goes something like this: "It is pointless to try and wake a person who is pretending to be asleep."
Thundercloud.
"Hoka-hey!"
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"Second: This guy is not a poster child for the cause of men...he was what he was; a coward that took the cheap, lazy, liar's way out. Just as it is repulsive to consider Andrea Yates as a martyr for women's causes, this guy is a repulsive artifact truly unrelated to the men's awareness movement."
The problem is, we don't make these men the Poster Child for the men's movement the media and the feminists do. Just like Mark Lepine they will start to say that he is every man and that every man is secretly planning to such a thing. Yes this is blatently false. However agree with you we shouldnt be making heros of these men, .
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Friday November 01, @03:36PM EST (#45)
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Dan.
You got that right.
Let the feminists make heroes of murderers and bigots, as the Nazis did (do).
We are on a mission of justice for ALL. We have a much higher calling than the feminists could ever hope to aspire to.
Let them do the hateing. We'll do the truth telling and fighting for that truth.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka-hey!"
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Damn well said, my friend.
Mitchell A. Smith
"An ambiguous perspective is all you can hope for when initially confronted by that which you do not know."
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by Anonymous User on Saturday November 02, @01:34PM EST (#53)
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Mitchell.
Thank you. I've been on a roll, lately. ...I think...,
Thundercloud.
"Hoka-hey!"
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Thank you for the compliment. I also appreciate all that you do in this forum.
Now, if only more men would take part...
Mitchell A. Smith
"An ambiguous perspective is all you can hope for when initially confronted by that which you do not know."
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ABUSE of all sorts DOES CAUSE HOMICIDE for anyone of both genders. 90% of homicide offenders were severely abused as children (as were 3% nonoffenders).
The vast majority of the other 10% were severely abused in other ways -- abused spouses (we all know battered wives), men who were raped while serving time for nonviolent offences, those abused by the system like the man in the newsstory, insane individuals who are abused rather then helped, etc.
I DEFINITLY DO NOT APPROVE OF THIS MAN'S BEHAVIOUR. Otherwise we would have to justify ALL homicide.
But in order to stop homicide epidemic in US we have to look at underlying abuses rather then just increase the penalty. In Canada an average homicide offender serves 7 years (20 in US). A female homicide offender serves 3 years. And yet there is no epidemic of homicides there. And females still commit 10% of this crime -- unlike 14% in US.
PUNISHMENT AND CRIME
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I DEFINITLY DO NOT APPROVE OF THIS MAN'S BEHAVIOUR. Otherwise we would have to justify ALL homicide. But in order to stop homicide epidemic in US we have to look at underlying abuses rather then just increase the penalty.
Men around the country commit suicide in alarming numbers because of their oppression for being born outside of the female biological group. A common theme in male suicides is the legal kidnapping of the man's children, followed by forcing the man to support the known kidnapper.
If these suicides increasingly become murder/suicides, if abuse and oppression of Flores for being male led in part to his actions, we would be idiots to ignore those facts.
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> If these suicides increasingly become
> murder/suicides, if abuse and oppression
> of Flores for being male led in part
> to his actions, we would be idiots to
> ignore those facts.
Even CNN sympathises with Iranian women who kill their husbands due to lack of legal solutions for abuse. Not just abused men's (or battered wives') actions but over 95% of homicides are caused by social problems ignored by society. In South Africa, for instance, where child abuse is legal homicide rate is TWELVE TIMES as high as in USA.
PUNISHMENT AND CRIME
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by Anonymous User on Thursday October 31, @04:14PM EST (#28)
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I read this man's entire letter, and I certainly sympathize with his situation. History, however, will condemn him for these actions, no matter who sympathizes with him right now.
Had I been this man, I am not certain I would have publicly spelled out my reasons for committing this heinous act, though. I am certain there are many other suicide/murderers who have committed these atrocities for similar reasons.
Wake up, America. Treat your men like people for a change.
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This man's story is worth reading. I'm sure a good deal of it is true. It is however, only his perspective and obviously leaves out the other side of things. There is always another side. Not seeing the other side and listening solely to the "victim" is the exact giant mistake that is made by many feminists when they "listen" to the victims and automatically vilify men without hearing the other side. Glad to see we can argue about it.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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by Anonymous User on Friday November 01, @04:25PM EST (#50)
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((("Wake up America. Treat your men like people for a change.")))
I find it interesting that many women refer to Men as "Dogs".
Perhaps these women should take that analogy to it's logical conclusion.
When I was a kid, we had this old dog around my neighborhood. He didn't belong to anyone, he just "lived" around the neighborhood.
Most of us kids liked that old dog. He was a good dog. He stunk to high heaven and he was dirty all the time but he was a good old mutt.
None of the adults in the neighborhood liked the dog. I saw many occasions where people would run out of there houses and kick, beat, even shoot him with B.B. guns. But he was a nice dog.
This nice old dog was around for about 5 months. That whole 5 months piriod the nice old dog was attacked again and again by the adults in the neighborhood. then came the day I saw him for the last time. He had cuts all over his body and a seeping gash in his forehead where he had been struck with a crowbar and one of his testicales appeared to be crushed.
I reached out like I often did just to pet him.
He BIT me...,
A neighbor was watching and she called 'Animal control'.
Animal control came quickly and took the dog away. He was destroyed quickly.
The bite wasn't too bad and I recovered allright.
Many years went by before I gave that poor, nice, old dog any hard thought. But one day it dawned on me, why that dog had bit me.
He had been a nice dog. but all those beatings and abuse he took from our neighbors..., THAT'S what had changed him.
I had never done anything to hurt that dog. In fact I was always nice to him. Yet he bit ME.
It also dawned on me, then, that EVERYONE in that neighborhood was responsible for that dog biteing me!
Just because he was dirty and "ugly" no one would treat him with respect or dignity. If they had just DONE THAT, or simply just left him alone, an innocent little kid (me) would have never been bitten, by that dog at all.
Which led me to a phylosophy I carry with me to this day; "If you kick a nice dog often enough, eventualy, he will BITE."
Anyone see the paralel I'm giveing...?
Thundercloud.
"Hoka-hey!"
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I know this is off topic, but every now and again I like to say stuff like this.
I like being a man and Im proud of my manhood.
I think all of us should take time out in the day every once in a while to remind ourselves of that if you don't already.
This is a good step in the Re-Humanization of men. You have to believe it yourselves first.
.
Dan Lynch
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