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I acknowledge that we, here, recognize that women are more abusive to children than men, but consider this story in isolation for a few minutes. Absent any other evidence of abuse, I think that the authorities over-reacted by taking the child from her home, and that again, absent any other evidence of abuse, they probably did FAR MORE damage to the child by placing her in foster care than the parents ever did with a spanking. Everyone likes to consider "child abuse" as a black and white issue, but being a parent who has seen how other parents treat their children through sports programs and scouting, I'm convinced that child abuse is not all black and white. A child who gets a severe swat on the bottom for egregious behavior, but whose parents are otherwise loving and attentive is far better off than a child who has never been hit but has to fight for each and every moment of mom's or dad's time. I suspect that the authorites reacted to pressure from the liberal community who believe in the notion that spanking your children is egregious abuse and grounds for removing the child.
Finally, I note that there appears to be very little consideration for the notion of awarding custody to the father even after the mother offered to move out of the house. This is, to me, the biggest offense of the case, and ought to be given closer scrutiny.
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Frank:
I respect your opinion, and I'm sorry to disagree, but from watching it several times, I saw her choke up on the little girl's pony tail then rattle her head around like a rag doll. I watched her right hand go into a fist after she had the child in the seat and then punch her hard several times. I didn't see them land, but they looked like head shots.
This was a strong woman. If this were a small, lightly built man doing this he would never see his child again, and do years of prison time without mercy. That wouldn't be right for the child (to get beaten, then loose a parent).
With that being said let me go on and say, I can't let my bitterness at the sexist treatment of men make me vengeful about this. Two wrongs won't make a right. Families should stay together and resolve these kinds of issues in the positive. The government should keep the hell out of people's lives and people's families unless it is to help them resolve problems like these, and prison is not a solution it's just more trouble and problems for the family. o.k., that's my take on it, everybody jump on me. This woman needs many years of counseling and watching.
Respectfully,
Ray
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday September 24, @02:17AM EST (#15)
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I agree with you, Ray :) No jumping here.
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Frank - this incident was much worse than a mere 'smack', it was downright child abuse;
and Ray - I'm sorry I disagree with you entirely.
One of my biggest gripes is the belief that female criminals should be treated leniently if they are mothers. Some people here in Britain are even advocating the closure of womens prisons! If these 'mothers' cared as much about their children as they say they do then they wouldn't be committing crimes that carry custodial sentences. Also no same consideration is given to Fathers who are imprisoned.
I for one do not wish to see the Men's Movement move in the direction of the Pheminists where men (as well as women) are given a pardon on the strength of being a parent. No way. Do to crime, serve the time. If you loved your kids and are a responsible parent you wouldn't commit crimes and as child abuse is, in my opinion, the most serious crime after murder, people - including mothers and fathers - who commit such despicable acts should be locked up for a long time indeed.
Anyway, how can it be 'in the best interests of the child' keeping him/her in the care of a clearly abusive parent while she goes through 'councelling'?
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by Anonymous User on Monday September 23, @02:00PM EST (#2)
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I have watched and rewatched that tape till I was almost sick.
Those are not the blows of a "never before" batterer. That other child sitting there like it was "situation normal" also puts the lie to any other claims this monsterous woman might speak.
And, typically, bad mother, father not even considered.
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I have not watched it over and over, but I did watch it carefully one time, because I knew what was coming. The child appeared to roll over as the mother attempted to put her in a car seat, and though I saw the mother's arm moving, I couldn't see precisely where she was striking or discern if the blows were actually as damaging as they appeared.
The real question that has to be asked is what was the history? Has it ever happened before? How frequently does this happen?
Sorry, AU. I'm just not willing to buy into the sensationalist nature of the reporting behind this story. It seems to me that the folks at Kohls had an ulterior motive in keeping the woman on camera and that the authorities may have been looking for a legitimate reason to further investigate this woman.
She might well be guilty of more significant abuse. I'm just not buying all that from this tape alone.
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SOUTH BEND, Ind. (AP) - The woman caught on video beating her four-year-old daughter in a department store parking lot will probably plead guilty and throw herself on the mercy of the court, her lawyer said Monday.
Madelyne Gorman Toogood, 25, was arraigned on a felony charge of battery to a child, and a magistrate entered a not guilty plea on her behalf. But her lawyer, Steven Rosen, said there was no point in trying to challenge the surveillance videotape in court. "I don't think there's anything, any expert of any degree in any type of credibility that can do anything about that tape. It is what it is," he said.
"We will probably enter a guilty plea and throw ourselves on the mercy of the court," he said after the arraignment.
Earlier Monday, a Probate Court judge ordered that Toogood's daughter, Martha, remain in foster care in the meantime, and he gave child-protection officials two weeks to recommend who should care for the girl.
If convicted, Toogood could get up to three years in prison. She faces a hearing on Oct. 7.
The mother of three had no comment as she left court. She remained free on $5,000 US bail.
"People might think I'm a monster, but I've been a mother for six years, and no harm has come to my children before this, never," Toogood told CNN earlier Monday. "I'm sorry. That's all I can say."
A doctor examined the girl and found no medical problems and no long-term signs of abuse, authorities said.
Toogood told reporters Sunday she hit her daughter in the head and back and pulled her hair but did not punch her. On the video of the Sept. 13 incident, which has been televised nationally, Toogood appears to make punching motions toward her daughter inside a sport utility vehicle.
"Martha didn't deserve what she got," Toogood said over the weekend. "I just lost my temper."
Rosen said he believed the hitting took place because Martha misbehaved in the store, taking toys out of packages and wandering away, prompting store employees to page Toogood twice.
Toogood said she hopes to be reunited with her daughter and that she, her daughter, and her husband, John, plan to start parenting classes. "Anything that they want us to do, we will do," Toogood said.
She said her two young sons are staying with family.
Toogood said she and her husband have been living in Mishawaka for about six months.
Toogood's sister also was arraigned Monday on a charge of assisting a criminal.
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday September 25, @03:08AM EST (#19)
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How the heck did this woman get the name "TooGOOD"? How ironic.
Any way, anyone else notice how Toogood looked around over her shoulder to make sure no one was looking, before she started wailing on that poor little girl? CREEPY! Just plain CREEPY!
There sure is a lot of violent stuff going on in my state, (Indiana) lately. First the Pacers player being beaten by his girl-friend and now THIS. Maybe it's time for me to move...(?)
Thundercloud.
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What's important to note here is if it was a father hitting his child like that:
- instead of "looking" for the person that hit the child, it would be considered a national manhunt, which would be expedited further by a national "concern for the child's safety",
- the words "domestic abuse" would keep popping up like mushrooms on a fallen log,
- when caught, the father would be thrown in prison without bail, and wouldn't be given a single second of airtime to tell his side of the story, except for a blurb in the newspaper with a title like "Child Abuser Pleads Innocent".
This is only my opinion, but correct me if I'm wrong here.
"Stereotypes are devices that save a biased person the trouble of learning."
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I have to disagree with portions of your arguement Frank. First this was not a "spanking." This was far from any form of punishment one could consider as justified when directed at a child. The mother admittedly lost her temper and took out her anger on her child. This is unacceptable! As a father I can vouch for the feelings of frustration and anger that this mother might have been feeling, but there are better ways to handle it. Often times a time-out for the parent is what is necessary to allow the adult to get under control. The mother could have left the child in the car and done a "tire-check" to allow time for her too cool off.
Think about this: If the person in the car was an adult female and the one doing the striking was an adult male there would have been public outcry from every portion of the nation for this individual to arrested and thrown in jail.
I do feel that spankings are a useful item in the disiplinary toolbox for parents. [note: there was a study done in Holland(?) where spanking was outlawed and labeled as child abuse. The surprising fact was that a follow up study a few years later showed that there was NO decrease in child abuse cases.] Spanking does have a time and place but it and any other punishment should NEVER be administered for a child (or an adult for that matter) simply as a vent for anger or frustrations.
A surprising issue for me is that while the woman's two boys are now living with their father ,the daughter is living in a foster home. I totally agree that CPS should have looked into placing this young child in a loving and familar environment that her father could obviously provide.
Finally, the media is already discussing issues of child visitation for this woman. Comments such as, "It will probably be a year before she can get her daughter back." and "She can only have supervised visitation,.." baffle me, or maybe it doesn't. We as a culture have a difficult time seperating a mother and child. We see this relationship as inviolate. It will be interesting to watch the media and the sound bites in the next few weeks to see how this case unfolds in the public eye. I doubt that father would be given the same benefit of the doubt in a similar situation.
Tony
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It's been a long time since I spanked any of my children, but I can think of one or two times that I intended to swat one of them on the buttocks and ended up hitting something else because of wiggling and crying. From the article Dan posting inline: "A doctor examined the girl and found no medical problems and no long-term signs of abuse, authorities said. "
What I'm pushing back on here is the propensity for the "do-gooders" to insert themselves in the picture when there is no apparent need. These are the same people who now assure that fathers NEVER get equal recognition when it comes to custody and visitation in divorces.
Ultimately, I believe that there is a strong potential for this child to suffer FAR more harm by being taken from her parents than she would suffer from whatever her mother dished out in the parking lot, ASSUMING (see the above quote) there are no other signs of abuse. As far as the notion of separating child from mother as being being inviolate, I think separation from EITHER parent as being inviolate.
You are all entitled to your opinion, as am I, and mine remains unchanged. All I suggest is that you think very carefully about the circumstances under which you would want the state to step into YOUR family.
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I think we agree on the subject at hand actually. I am outraged at some of the ways CPS has abused their position and taken children away from families and parents for no reason other than hearsay of vengeful individuals or the word of a child. There have been many cases were CPS has destroyed famlies on unproven facts.[the famous case in LA were a 'councelor'found abuse in daycare that was later shown to be false comes to mind.] This case was different in that the mother was seen on film. while it is unclear the damage that could have been done to the child in the attack it all could have been made mute if she had gone on the lamb.
-To answer your question if I ever attacked my child like that I would expect, no demand, that someone take action. I have at times felt the same frustration and rage that this mother must have felt but I dealt with it in an adult way. I placed my daughter in a safe location and left the room and let myself cool off. [I wonder sometimes if men take more responsibility for physical violence than women do since we are aware of the damage that can occur in a conflict. Women often seem to think a slap or punch is par for the course when upset at a man.]
-As for seperation from parents being harmful that is a diffucult question to answer and must be examined case by case. I have personally seen people who are parents (or in the role as one) that should never been allowed to be in the presence of a child. Just because an individual has the ability to create a child does not make them capable of being a parent.
-Might this woman be a good mother? Sure. Should this one act cause her to lose her right to her children? Perhaps. We as adults are responsible for our acts. One act can result the revoking of parental rights. Where is this line drawn? That is something we as a society are still exploring. In general I feel that you are right and that everything should be done to keep children with their parents. Surprisingly one of the most under examined areas of child abuse is that of neglect something that very often does not leave physical marks but is just as physically and mentally damaging. [For example I would consider starving a child for a week to be cause for severe monitoring if not absolute revokation of parental rights.] What would you consider something that would demand a similar act?
Tony
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Where I feel raped on this is that were it a man, the presumption would be that he was guilty, and a monster, and should have his parental rights terminated as well as being castrated to see he never fathers another child again.
Since it's a female, the presumption is that she's misunderstood, that this was an isolated incident, and she needs counselling to be reunited with her children.
Personally, the facty of the matter is immaterial to me. If she's guilty she should be found guilty and punished regardless of her gender. If she's not, she should go free. I have a hard time arguing with the video, though.
It's the disparity of the reaction that is so striking. Were this a man, the Oprah Winfrey/Jenny Jones/Sally Jesse Raphael/Rosie O'Donnell gang would be out in the streets with their lynch mobs. Since it's a female, we have to "wait for the facts" and "Be more understanding" and "Consider the child" and...
Hogswallop.
If it's good enough for men, women should be held to the same standard. And if this is what women get, men should get it too. Today. Starting right now, across the board, no discussion, no negotiation, no excuses. Because there is no excuse for genderist bigotry.
That's just bottom line - and I'll tell you true, mis amigos, you don't own power unless you take it - if it gets granted to you, you don't really own it.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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TGK: I agree 100%. Were the perp in this case to be a man, he never would have left the parking lot, and he would never see his children again.
Tony: I think in order to justify taking the child away from her family I would have had to seen some measurable harm (bruises, etc.) or have knowledge of previous abuse. We only have the article to work from and it would appear that the doctor indicated there was no harm from this incident and no indication of previous abuse. But I would not hesitate to follow up with visits to the house by social workers (sickening thought in many ways, though) and counseling of the violating parent on anger control.
I just want to say that I think that we (society in general, not mens activists) need to recognize that children thrive in the company of their parents, even when the parents are a little rougher, physically, than the "experts" would advise. It's a gray area, and I don't think you and I would ever agree on the threshold, nor should we, really. Again, I just want to recognize that some sins can be forgiven when the rest of the care that the parents provide is good.
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I watched FemiBill on the Fox news channel tonight. What a feminist bigot. I was waiting for the condemnation from him of the mom, since he was screaming for a violence against children act after the Samantha Runion murder (a very bad one).
It never happened, but after awhile he blurted out, "Where's the dad?" "If this were happening to my kid I'd be there for her, blah, blah blah." If his old lady punched the crap out of his kid he'd learn a lot more about how men come under heavy suspicion in these kind of events, than he knows now.
I wasn't surprised. He blamed Russel Yates, when Andrea drowned her five children. This bigotted pundit is predictable and boring. It's hard for men to move forward through the forest of feminist oppression with Neanderthal dim wits like him, badly portraying the intelligent male viewpoint
Ray
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday September 24, @12:32AM EST (#13)
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What happened to FOX's credo, "FAIR AND BALANCED."?
O'Riley sure hasn't sounded "Fair and balanced" to me, Lately.
I didn't see the report you're talking about, Ray, But the way O'Riley's been acting lately, I'm not suprised to hear this.
And, Yeah, I'm with you. I'm still waiting for some one to say "Where's the Mom?!?" when ever a FATHER is a suspect of child abuse.
Guess we shouldn't hold our breaths.
Thundercloud.
That's right, I'm back.
(I died..., but I'm better now.)
(^-^)
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Welcome back. We've missed your insights.
Ray
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday September 24, @05:51AM EST (#17)
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Thanks, Ray.
I've missed the insights of you and everyone else here, as well.
(well, except the trolls, anyway.)
Thundercloud.
...Bill O'Reilly is a knuckle head. (I just wanted to stay on topic.) (^-^)
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