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I think Mr. Sacks is wrong about one thing and it hurts the main point of his argument.
Boys have been disciplined more than girls for a long time, it is not a recent thing as Mr. Sacks suggests. Both my mother and a great aunt were schoolteachers and they say boys were disciplined more often than girls .... from way back in the 1940's at least. I do not think the way schools are run with regard to discipline are any different today than in eras past ... with the exception that today there is no longer corporal punishment in schools.
In addition, if your read historical accounts of schooling in the US and other European countries the same thing is true, boys are disciplined more than girls.
Actually, discipline itself is a imprecise word. When I was in school girls were "discplined" quite often for talking in class, passing notes, etc. They were given demerits for these kinds of infractions and after a certain number, lost grade points or priveledges. However, I remember boys getting in more trouble, being sent out of class for example, for throwing things in the classroom and for things like destroying school property such as vandalizing desks and lockers, etc. From my memory boys and girls were in general disruptive in different ways, with boy disrupstions deemed the more serious, such as fights, destruction of property, profanity etc. In general, girls got in trouble for lesser offenses such as talking.
Last year in my kid's school they tried to implement a discipline quota system. On a weekly basis a teacher could not discipline boys more than girls, blacks more than whites etc. There was a mini revolt by teachers and some parents about this and it was quickly abandoned.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday September 10, @02:40AM EST (#2)
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Lorianne.
That's been my expirience, as well.
When I went to school, (back in the Jurassic piriod) Boys were ALWAYS diciplined more often than girls. And when boys or girls were dciplined it was for just the reasons you stated.
However, the penalties for male students was always harsher than the penalties for female students, even if the "offense" was the same.
I.E. Boys might be paddled for whatever. But girls were NEVER paddled, for anything, no matter how sirious the "offense".
But yeah, I'm not sure how much has really changed in this regard.
Not to mention I went to a reservation school, (You can tell, because I'm a lousy speller.) so maybe things were\are different in off res schools.
Thundercloud.
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Thundercloud:
How does a boy know when he has reached manhood?
Ans. When he discovers that the penalties for testing the boundaries of what is acceptable behavior are becoming harsher and harsher.
Apparently we are expecting our boys to be men at an every increasing early age, if harshness of penalties for malfeasant behavior is any indicator.
Regards,
Ray
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Let's take it from someone here who actually has a degree and license to teach, and has spent time in a classroom as recently as three years ago. Last spring if you count teaching night school, but that was partly adults, wroking on G.E.D.
Namely, me.
And it wasn't women who made me leave, it was poor pay, political correctness, and the deplorable tendancy of our "publik skool" system to just promote and don't rock the boat.
Boys have indeed been punished more than girls. But you're only giving half the story.
Little Johnny throws a book at Little Jimmy. Little Jimmy, nose bleeding throws it back. Zero Tolerance says I have to punish both of them.
Little Suzie passes a note to Little Jenny. God forbid I punish Little Jenny. She can't help it. I can't do anything but take the note away. In the old days it would be read to the class. Not anymore. Violation of privacy. Traumatizing.
And Little Suzie soon learns that nothing but excuses will ever be made for her, and she can always hide behind the crocodile tears and the "boohoohoo" and she'll get away with everything.
I found during my tenure that boys rarely had to be corrected for the same thing more than once - crack the whip, set a firm limit, and response is normally to fall back behind the boundary. Girls, on the other hand, while their disobedience wasn't so dramatic, it was much more constant - passing of notes, whispering, tapping pencils, passive-aggressive behavior, and so on.
Harshness of punishment is another thing. Johnny breaks the rules, it's throw the book at him, zero tolerance, no excuses. Same offense by Little Suzie, and we get counselling, urging to understand, excuses.
Johnny learns he's going to do the time, might as well do the crime and turns into a rat bastard. Hey, a week's suspension for pushing the dweeb down, a week for busting him up. Long as it's a week either way....
Suzie just turns into a little witch. Nobosy is ever going to punish Princess Suzie anyway.
Johnny and Suzie get busted for PDA (Public Displays of Affection, known in my day as "Making Out") Johnny is a predator and a harasser. Suspension and Re-education. Suzie is a victim. Counselling and coddling. Every. Single. Time.
I spent two years on a faculty disciplinary board. I've spent five minutes looking it up in the records I keep in my filing cabnet, three feet to the left. Every. Single. Time.
Let's go through some more - Johnny - graffiti, bathroom poet variety - 3 days suspension. Suzie - dumping nail polish in (rival's) locker - one week's detention.
Here's a good one - Johnny, TP'ing tree at homecoming, 2 weeks dentention, cleans tree, parents assessed clean up cost, suspended from basketball team for three games. Suzie, date, aiding and abetting in same offense, homecoming ticket declined and refunded. Oooh. That'll show her.
Johnny - cigarettes in locker: 1 week suspension, 2 weeks in school suspension, mandatory summer school, refusal to grant diploma until "stop smoking" classes (Summer School) completed. But he was allowed to attend graduation and recieve a blank folder. Suzie, Possession of marijuana, second offense, D.A.R.E. program in lieu of study hall for one quarter, Probation on cheerleading squad, 2 weeks detention, 5 page essay, and stern warning that the next time the police will be called.
Eagle Scout Johnny, camping event that night, gear stowed in truck including hatchet and camp knife. Zero Tolerance, expulsion. Suzie, switchblade in purse, pleads being "afraid of a stalker" who she refused to identify, then claimed she didn't know the guy, followed her home. Hm. Neat change of story. Illegal weapon confiscated, stern warning, exception made to zero tolerance policy.
Well, I guess that's only Zero when it comes to males and the politically incorrect, like Eagle Scouts.
Oh, I could go on. Let's not even go here.
And my qualifications include a B.S. and M.S. in education for primary and secondary, An A.S. in computer science, B.A. and M.A. in History with concentrations in Europe from the time of the Roman Republic until the Rennaisance, Minors in English Literature, Philosophy, and Child Psychology; Did my master's thesis on the influence of Eastern Orthodox Doctrine and the Rise of Lutheranism in Scandanavia during the Reformation, and I have endorsements for History, English, Technical vocations, Physical Education, and have coached junior high football (boys) and Basketball (Boys and girls), as well as being an educator from 1986-1999, five years associate faculty for a junior college; Currently I am director of training as well as Technical services manager for the company I work for. So I - you know- kind of know what I'm talking about having been in the trenches for a year or two, real recent-like, know what I'm saying? That's not to mention heading up a remedial reading program for dyslexics, and teaching advanced electives in History, a few classes that earned early college credit for high school students, and vocational rehab/GED classes at the Jail on a volunteer basis through my church.
I'm not exactly wet behind the ears. So, word to the wise before anyone, and I won't mention any names, tries to bluff their way through a debate with second hand ancedotes.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday September 11, @01:42AM EST (#4)
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Yikes!!
You've sold ME, Gonzo.
Appearantly alot HAS changed since I went to school.
I keep forgeting that not EVERYBODY wants to do the right thing.
Especially the right thing by boys.
In fact, it seems the opposite is the case.
Thundercloud.
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G.K.
Reading what you had to say, I couldn't help but feel more hopeful about the ability of good honest men to uncover that dung heap of stinking lies that is the moral high ground of radical feminism. With people like you on board all men become more empowered and encouraged to face the next wave of inane rad. fem. drivel that comes charging at our entrenched and bedraggled positions.
I don't mind being in the trenches anymore, taking on the impossible mission of turning back the overwhelming misandry of the radical feminists, because I realize that life as a man anywhere else in this society is of no value whatsoever. I salute you brother.
Best Wishes,
Ray
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