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The question that I have is: Why have North American men capitulated to female norms as delineated in Robert Glover's book, "No More Mr. Nice Guy."? Is it because of socio-political-cultural-economic sanctions placed on males who refuse to capitulate? I believe that the answer is "yes". It is clear that in the work place and in scholastic settings males who refuse to conform to the male "nice guy" image face oppressive and unjust economic and political sanctions.Females and and male feminists with the support of the state discriminate against the same .That females individually and collectively strongly denounce males who advocate that males aggressively organize and defend their rights is no surprise given the aforementioned.
I learned to be a "male" as a combat infantryman in Vietnam away from the American female dominated culture. Men, if they are to regain their self respect and their freedom, should, like the brave Greek soldiers at the Battle of Marathon, be willing to collectively organize and resist those who would subjugate them.
C.V. Compton Shaw
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I think it goes back to more basic concerns. My mother told me to be a Nice Guy. She was more concerned with any girls I might go out with than she was about my ability to defend my emotions and grow up to be a man. She assumed that boys came with built-in bravado and it was the modern mother's job to keep it in check.
My female teachers were feminists who told me that traditional men were "pigs" and that the best kind of man to be was a Nice Guy.
My student friends who were girls told all of us boys that they hated "macho" men and that what they really wanted were Nice Guys.
All of the men in my life, from my father to male teachers to my male student friends, just looked cowed and nodded a lot when faced by this onslaught.
Is it any wonder that I grew up to be a classic Nice Guy, as Robert Glover describes? Yes, the adult world has its sanctions, too, but I see lots of "macho men" who grew up in more traditional circumstances who aren't afraid to be "macho" in today's society. I conclude that my sensitivity to societal sanctions and stimuli must be something about me, about the way I was raised, since these other guys seem to be getting along fine. Oh, and those guys got the cute girls who kept saying they didn't want "macho" men. I didn't.
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BusterB wrote:
Is it any wonder that I grew up to be a classic Nice Guy, as Robert Glover describes?
I can second all of that. I think that, one way or another, the world will inevitably beat Nice-Guyism out of you because you've basically been fed a set of ideas that have no basis in reality.
As a partial cure, I've been recommending David Deida's "The Way of the Superior Man." A partial E-book is available free at http://www.deida.com/wotsm-ebook.html
I have the full hardcopy and have been passing it around with friends and co-workers. The older, more battle-scarred guys tend to nod their heads in agreement. The younger fellows seem starved for this kind of information and explanation.
As for all the spiritual aspects Deida brings in... As Smoking Drive says, those who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like.
Larry
Proud member of the Sperm Cartel
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by Anonymous User on Sunday August 25, @01:20AM EST (#4)
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I have always refered to "nice guys" as "Wussy-poopies."
Of course, I DO believe in trying to be considerate toward others. But that's not the same as being a "nice guy". A "nice guy", IMO is a self-hateing male, who not only lets women walk all over him, he seems to WANT them to. He is the proverbial "Yes-Man." This is the kind of guy who works in Hollywood and the media in general.
Outside of the Marx-fems, themselves, it is the "nice guy" who is our greatest enemy.
Thundercloud.
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TC wrote:
I have always refered to "nice guys" as "Wussy-poopies."
Have you found that to be an effective tactic for snapping them out of Nice-Guyism?
Larry
Proud member of the Sperm Cartel
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by Anonymous User on Monday August 26, @01:17AM EST (#10)
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((("Have you found that to be an effective tactic for snapping them out of Nice-guyism?")))
No, not too often.
Usualy, they just tell me I'm "anti-female."
Actually, though, I don't call them "woosie-poopies" to convert them. My expirience has been that Woosie-poopies are often a lost cause. ANY talk of fair and equal rights for men will get you called "misoginist" by alot of these guys.
So I really just call them "Wussy-poopies" because it bugs them, and because I think it's fun! (^-^) Other than that I don't waste too much time on these brainwashed, spineless, groveling, "uncle Toms".
...I have enough aggrevation...
Thundercloud.
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Perhaps I was a nice guy ages ago, but those days are a dim memory. My parents had the consideration to die young; my father died first; while my mother was alive, she was a financial drain who was never satisfied when I helped support my mother and two brothers. She went to women's groups; my father picked her up and drover her home. My brothers and I learned that men were supposed to be intrinically evil from her.
These days I'm not a nice guy at all--more like a self-centered, unmitigated jerk with a genuine lack of interest in anyone else's problems (in case anyone needs my help, I often see to it that they never ask again). I never put anyone else's needs above my own; the thought of starting a family would involve too much sacrifice, if helping my mother and brothers when my father died was any indication. My family didn't help me with graduate school: I had to wait until I was independent; I worked full time while earning a doctorate, often cutting out of work at odd times to attend classes; I told employers one thing and did whatever I felt necessary after I was hired so that I could support my graduate studies. I don't give a rats ass if that sounds unsavory or unethical--I'm not a nice guy.
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The only thing I'll apologize for is bad grammar and clumsy sentence construction; even though it undermines my not-nice-guy image, I apologize.
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This seems relevent to this disscusion. Its from the negotiating team at harvard. 'Getting to Yes' is the name of the book.
URY and FISHER
I wanted to post this by the Harvard Negotiation Project the authors of 'Getting to Yes'.
There are two people and one orange. Both people want the orange for their own purposes. So the arguement over who gets the orange begins. Seems simple why don't they just cut the orange in half? They both want the orange seems fair that each one simply get half.
But what if we explored why each one wants the orange? Taking a moment to seperate the people from the problem to reduce hostilities and to look merely at the issues. Turns out person A wants the orange to make a cake and wants to grind the orange peel to flavour the icing. Person B wants the orange just for the fruit inside. Hypothetically we could add third person who just wanted the seeds to plant trees.
But in the end by asking those questions and looking at the needs and wants of all the people involved we made the absolute most of the orange according to what each person wanted. Otherwise the orange would just have been cut in half and half the fruit used and half the peel used the other halves wasted.
This is part of what Im getting at for expanding the men's movement.
.
Dan Lynch
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While the others are arguing over it, I'd just grab the orange and run away. Does this make me a bad person?
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday August 27, @04:37PM EST (#15)
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No, I don't think it makes you a "bad person".
I think it would be really funny if you did it, though. because I can just see the "What the Hell...?" look on the other guy's faces.
Yeah, Just grab and run, if for no other reason that it would be a hoot!(^-^)
Thundercloud.
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Dialogue between a Feminist and a Man
-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------
----
FEMINIST: I demand equality.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: Harvard must go coed, not Wellesley.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: And circumcised girls must be called "genitally
mutilated," while circumcised boys remain..."normal."
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: After sex, I get three choices (birth, abortion, or
adoption). You get none.
MAN: Okay
FEMINIST: I can kill your child, or make you pay for 25 years,
or give it away.
MAN: Okay
FEMINIST: I can join the army and never fight.
MAN: Okay
FEMINIST: I can wear what I want, but you can't look at what you
want.
MAN: Okay
FEMINIST: I'm rough and tough, but can sue for name-calling.
MAN: Okay
FEMINIST: I can come in 70th in a Marathon and still get
first-place prizes.
MAN: Okay
FEMINIST: I want to technically make divorce no-fault...
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: ...but actually blame you.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: I want all the benefits of marriage post-divorce, not
the burdens. You must keep all burdens and lose all benefits.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: If I say you made booga-booga eyes at me, I get to
call the cops and have you arrested.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: Arrested, you become a "batterer" and I can kick you
out of our home. I also get temporary custody of your kids.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: If I have a restraining order, and you call me, I can
call it "stalking." You'll be jailed.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: At permanent custody hearings, I can bring up your
"abuse" record and keep the kids, car, cash, and castle.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: I can kill you and say you provoked me. You can't lay
a hand on me since "There's NEVER an excuse to hit a woman."
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: Men who beat women will suffer harsh Federal
punishments and public censure. Women - who start better than half of all
domestic fights with men and cause most abuse/neglect of children and the
elderly - will be called "nurturers" and "care-givers."
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: Divorce will cost you big bucks. I'll get free help
from the state, and wimmin's advocates, and even make you pay my legal
bills.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: I get the kids, 'cuz I spent more time raising them.
You don't keep the cash, though you spent more time earning it.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: I'm a mommy, you're a money-mule.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: I get to go back to school, or stay at home. You
must work.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: I get to track your earnings. You can't track my
parenting. In fact, you can't see your kids school records without my
say-so.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: You must make up for my lost career momentum. I don't
have to make up for your lost time with the kids.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: You have to pay child-support (CS) to me. I don't have
to tell you how I spend it or if I use it on myself.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: Your CS orders will be higher than if we were still
married, being based on Lenore Walker's cooked statistics.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: I get to have "space" and to "find" myself. Judges
will make you stay at lousy jobs.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: I get 25 per cent of your gross income for Jimmy.
Make more, I get more.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: After divorce, I can "train" or go to college instead
of getting a job. You have to work.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: I get to move the kids out of state without your
permission. You can't budge without mine.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: "Family" now means "women and children."
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: Birthing slatterns will now be called "single
mommies," their chosen sex partners "predators."
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: States and feds will enforce my child-support rights -
for free. You must pay to " try" to enforce your visitation rights.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: I don't have to make up denied visitation to you. You
must pay all missed CS payments to me, with interest.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: I can call you a "deadbeat dad." You can't call me a
"welfare queen."
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: Welfare mothers can't be forced to name abusive
fathers since ALL fathers are now "abusive."
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: The tax office can dog you on the Internet for CS. My
privacy is sacred, my rights endless.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: CS agents can hunt you like a fugitive slave, making
you register with employers like an apartheid black.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: Whales matter now, not males.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: In cultural coin tosses, it's "heads I win, tails you
lose."
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: I can keep expanding my perks and punishing you.
MAN: Okay.
FEMINIST: If you want me to bobbittize you, say "Okay."
MAN: Okay.
-Source unknown
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Monday August 26, @01:35AM EST (#11)
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Dan Lynch's post, "Dialouge between a feminist and a man" illustrates Wussy-poopieism to a 'T'!
Like I said earlier, in another post, Outside of the rad-fems it is the Wussy-poopie man that is our greatest enemy. He is the "Yes-man" to any and ALL feminist demands.
Thanks, Dan!
Thundercloud.
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Once upon a time, I was a so-called Nice Guy.
I got run over by women, taken advantage of, and railroaded. When I was single, I spent a lot of evenings alone.
I decided to hell with that. Now I'm sure that I've been rubricized already by some of our stealth pheminists as undersexed and frustrated, but reality is I can't recall a time within about the past ten years or so where I wanted sex, and didn't have an obliging woman there to take care of things. Why? Because women don't really like nor want nice guys.
We go out, I pick the restaurant and a movie, and guess what? We don't go see the latest Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks film, because I'm paying.
I don't want to go to little sister's wedding. So I don't. And I'm not going to chip in to get the ditzy little witch a toaster oven either.
My home is decorated the way I want. Keep your cutesy pink razor and feminine napkins in your overnight bag. If I wanted flowers and lace curtains, I'd put up flowers and lace curtains. And my chair may be ugly, but it's my chair and molded to my ass; it's comfortable, sturdy, and it would be sheer idiocy to spend $850 to replace it.
Can't find a sitter? What a shame. Maybe next time.
You may not like my favorite shirt. When I want your opinion on it, I'll ask.
Your short butch haircut makes you look like a dyke. Call me when you look female again.
Tell ya what - if I can check in the dark to make sure the lid is up, you can check and make sure the seat is down.
The world series, NBA finals, Superbowl, and college Bowls come but once a year. The Yankees, The Pacers, The Cowboys, and the Fighting Irish. If they're playing, I'm watching. On the latter three, it's few and far between. Deal with it.
"Would it be alright if..." No. We made plans, you agreed, keep them as agreed or cancel and I will take someone else.
No, I don't need it, I want it, and it's my money. Any other stupid questions?
We watch news, historical documentaries, classic movies, and dramas. Because it's my TV and my house. We don't watch Oprah, Jenny Jones, Soap operas, Friends, or the G$D D#@$^%D Lifetime network, or any of it's cousins. Watch it at your house. And if you turn that pheminist crap on while I am there, I'm leaving.
I drink my whiskey straight because I like the taste of it. I can mix yours with coke. Want some fruity mixer? Feel free to buy it and bring it.
Yes, a woman has a right to chaange her mind. As does a man. And I've changed it about you.
I keep the numbers of several accomodating ladies, if you get the euphemism, handy. If you aren't accomodating, someone else will be.
I arrange my life at least a week in advance, sometimes two. If you want on that calender, make a commitment to it then. At the last minute, the answer is no on G.P. Cancel twice, without good notice, and I see the pattern. Cancel at the last minute, and you'll never be trusted again unless I have the room number that you or your immediate family are in.
The time before I have my second cup of coffee, and up to an hour after I get home from work is mine. I'll let you know when I am ready to be social. That glare is a hint and a half to leave me alone.
No, I'm not going to fight, I'm going to leave, or you are.
No means no. If you meant yes, why did you say no? Play your silly mind games elsewhere, life is to short for me to screw with your BS.
Did I say "Exclusive Relationship?" Did I say "Engagement?" Did I say "Wedding?" In that case you behaving like we have one is your affair, and not my fault.
Take your time, not mine. What part of "We have to be there at eight" didn't you study in elementary school? They're all one syllable words, and there is no excuse.
I'm not taking the quiz. It's unscientific, and it's stupid.
If you didn't say something when __________ happened, silence gives assent, and you have no right to bring it up later, and I'm not going to listen to it. Speak up now, or forever hold your peace.
It's called hunting. Or a camping trip. Or a gathering of my orghanization. If you don't want to go, I'll go with someone else and see you when I get back.
Hunting is civilized. And I've smoked for twenty years and still leave young bucks gasping for their own breath on the basketball court. Beer is a food group. It's not a bad habit. It's something you don't like. Deal with it or ohwellsosorryyafeelthatwayhaveagoodlife. I'm not changing.
Pregnant? Hmmm. Well, did I mention my vasectomy from several years ago? No? What a careless oversight. I hope you decide soon what you're going to do about your little problem.
Just friends? No, find someone else to be your emotional tampon. I have a sister, a mother, a sister in law, two cousins, a daughter, and five nieces. These more than suffice for a "feminine presence" in my life.
I'm not going to change. I like me the way I am. If I want to change I will do it for me, at my own time and pace. This is not negotiable. No, we're not going to talk about it, that would be a waste of time.
PMS is a reason to feel bad, not an excuse to behave bad.
No, you can't move in. I like my house, and want to keep it.
Why do I act like this? Because, when I was a nice guy, I got crapped on. Now I get rewarded with sex. I eat what I want, drink what I want, go where I want, do what I want with who I want, where I want, and when I want; I don't answer for my time, make excuses, or justify myself. I don't have legal hooks and claws in me, and I get more sex sometimes than I know what to do with.
Yes, I have a couple women determined to change and "civilize" me, one for going on 9 years now. I'm neither inspired nor impressed that they have moved to be closer to me, have given up jobs, or have put all other dating life on hold. I never asked them to do this, and I don't feel guilty in the least. I've had some get exasperated and leave. And a few accept the status quo, along with a few who are still riding the angst train. This too, is okay with me.
I know a couple women - accomodating ladies - from a local escort service. This serves for when I get sick of the BS and just want to get a little, then go out clubbing, or sit home and watch videos by myself. Wambam, thankya ma'am, and I have the rest of the night free.
So this clown is just discovering this?
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Monday August 26, @05:25PM EST (#13)
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Good post, Gonzo.
It's all about FREEDOM and SELF-DETERMINATION.
Things I never had, when I was "involved" with any woman.
I love women but in their current state, I don't "like" them much. (generaly speaking)
I don't go out of my way to harm them, emotionaly or otherwise. and I don't discriminate against them, if I am in a "highering" position.
I also don't bother socializing with them anymore.
They are'nt ALL bad, but as Feminist indoctrination continues to consume them steadily, I think there may come a time when I can't say "They aren't all bad", anymore.
Feminists will tell you, Gonzo, That You are as you are because you are anti-female. I've gotten the same accusation.
The fact is that You, Me and More and more men everyday are just BURNT OUT on all the Anti-male BS. that the masses of women believe and spew, we're burnt out on all the "Women are equal, therefore Men must kiss our @$$es" mentality.
We're burnt out on all the "I am woman, I am GOD" jive we are bombarded with DAILY. Burnt out on all the LOP-SIDED "family" and "parental" laws in this country.
burnt out on The Male-bashing jokes women tell constantly at work or ANY where in public.
Burnt out on Gender double standards.
Burnt out on The American woman's notion of what's Yours is mine, what's mine is mine.
Burnt out on female double talk about equality.
Burnt out, Burnt out, BURNT OUT...!
And as the number of women like this grows, so too MUST the number of men like ourselves, grow.
(cause and effect.)
Sorry ladies.
I have a religion and I have a God which in IMO is neither Male or Female.
Therefore I cannot and will not worship you.
Thundercloud.
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