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While the article starts out identifying them as "extremists," it ends by putting for the the justification for their ire. While I wouldn't call it "balanced," it didn't seem to be an overt attack either.
This could actually be a very good thing for the men's movement, because it may get enough publicity to demonstrate to all men that there are groups out there working on these issues. I wonder if they have any provisions for pointing those who aren't interested in such extreme tactics in the direction of more moderate organizations?
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by Anonymous User on Monday August 19, @09:24AM EST (#2)
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Please note the phrase ‘publicly abuse their former wives’. I don’t like the terminology – the reader of the article has to work out whether this means they are vocally protesting or if they are beating their wives in the streets.
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Surely they'd get more public sympathy if they 'abused' family court judges and politicians rather than their ex-wives. At least that way it'd be less convincing for their critics to use the old 'hostile to women' ruse, and others might like the fact that they challenge establishment figures. Just a thought.
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by Anonymous User on Monday August 19, @04:20PM EST (#8)
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PLUS, The term "publicly abuse their wives" leaves it WAY open for "Interpretation".
And of course it would be an "interpretation of convienience" for the Marx-fems.
And guess who's "interpretation" the media would air.
...I have enough aggrevation...
Thundercloud.
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by Anonymous User on Monday August 19, @10:34PM EST (#14)
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Please note the phrase ‘publicly abuse their former wives’.
Indeed. For any men's rights activists, there definitely IS such a thing as "bad publicity." The blackshirts are a prime example, using men's activism to take up the flag of fascism.
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Okay, I haven't spent as much time studying them as some have here, but I hardly see where anything in the subject article effectively paints them as fascists. And so far, while it's not a tactic I'd employ, picketing in front of their ex's home is about the worst they've done, and while the feminists could succeed in having that interpreted by the courts as a 'threat,' it would appear that there's been no violence.
So far, it seems like they've generated some press, bad press to a degree, but press nonetheless. Who was it who said there's no such thing as bad publicity? I think it was some actor complaining about a National Enquirer story. Face it, guys, the only publicity the men's movement is likely to get is BAD publicity, for now at least. As long as they're not getting arrested and charged with crimes of real violence or sexual assault, I think a little civil disobedience is a good thing. And according to their website, they are endeavoring to stay within the bounds of the law. So for now, they have my reserved support. And I would like to see this kind of thing emerge in the U.S. as well. And I do NOT apologize for it one bit.
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Anybody here seen their website yet? they also explained why they do what they do here as well.
Cheers.
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The Black Shirt Code:
1. Protect marriage - family - children
2. Re-instate the meaning of marriage, family and children.
3. Discourage any intrusion into the family home
4. Promote the best of human traits to children and discourage any alternative
5. At all times promote and stay within the bounds of the law
Which is the fundamental reason as to why the Black shirts sometimes wear masks and that is to ensure to not offend section 121 of the family law act in that indentities of parties may not be divulged.
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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There is a phone number or email address, maybe with personal contact you can find out for yourself.
I think Im going to at least email them. This is the way to find out the truth a little better.
If he starts talking about off the wall stuff that is unrelated , then we will know.
Which is to bad, cause I like what they are doing to a certain degree. I am however opposed to picketing infront of the ex's house, unless she has equally humiliated him publicly. Otherwise I prefer scumbag politicians as the brunt of my force.
.
Dan Lynch
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I've emailed them already and will post a note when I get a response.
I'm not holding my breath as they are probably getting mailbombed already.
cheers,
sd
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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What follows is an open letter from NCFM, LA to the BlackShirts. NCFM, LA has taken a position on their political views.
To BlackShirt Members,
NCFM, LA would actively support the BlackShirt if it were solely focused on men's issues and the preservation of the family. Unfortunately, the leader of the BlackShirts made public statements in support of fascism. It doesn't matter that he tried to resort to the original meaning or whatever. It is the view of NCFM, LA that the move was a serious political error that can only harm the men's movement.
Until there are corrective measures taken by the BlackShirts to remove their politically unviable position on fascism, NCFM, LA has no option but to publicly oppose the BlackShirts as extremists that teach hate. We strongly urge the BlackShirts to renounce all ties to fascism and remove all leaders that support fascists’ views that result in the teaching of hate and non-democratic views.
Sincerely,
NCFM, LA
ncfmla.org
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Bill C 117 in Canada makes those tactics a crime, as the 'ex' only has to "fear" that something would happen.
Also protesting public officials such as lawyers politicians and judges could also land you in hot water forcing you to sign restraining orders etc...
They are nulifying every avenue of protest. The one that remains is to protest in front of political buildings.
I for one would like to start making t-shirts with slogans on them that get a message out to anyone who takes the time to read the shirt. As far as Im concerned everywhere and anywhere you go you should be protesting.
That article has quite an 'Editorial Slant' to it thats for sure. I wish this guy was in regular contact with one of us, but the website is a good idea to get their view.
Now they are being labled 'neo-nazis'. Mostly I just think they are desperate men.
btw is that right about the suicide rate? Including women thats like 5 or 6 people a day. Most of them blamed on relationship problems. Honestly thats epidemic proportions. Australia is not that big of a country.
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Monday August 19, @04:08PM EST (#7)
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((("I for one, would like to start makeing T-shirts with slogans on them that get a message out to any one who takes the time to read the shirt.
as far as I'm concerned everywhere and anywhere you go you should be protesting.")))
Again, Dan, you make a great point.
I personaly HAVE made such T-shirts, My self.
They're pretty easy to make if you go to a 'crafts store' or the like. All you need to get started are some "T-shirt paints." they're fairly inexpensive. and with a bit of practice are fairly easy to use.
One of My first ones read...; "MARS TO VENUS... BACK OFF!!"
However, be forewarned, If you do this. There are a lot of "weirdos", "Wackos" and "wet-wipes" out there who will inevitably take issue with your message. ESPECIALY in the work place and ESPECIALY WOMEN! So be prepared to "go on the defensive", occaisionaly and at times alot.
Never the less, I ABSOLUTELY do INCOURAGE doing this!!
I do NOT incourage, however, T-shirts with "mean spirited", 'anti-female' messages.
You CAN if you want to, but I just personaly think it's uncalled for and drives the "wedge" deeper.
Again, good idea, Dan.
Thundercloud.
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Thanks, Thundercloud.
Im thinking that issues like "had enough of male bashing in the media?"
Or maybe quote how many suicides happen in those related cases.
Or how poorly boys are doing in school. Instead of saying what a bunch of cunts feminists really are.
You could even protest by saying male positive images like "Fathers Matter Too".
But there was one gal who got a repromand from her faculty because she made shirts that said "boy power", which I think is a great idea and since Im not on any faculty and answer to no one but god, I really don't see the harm.
If one were to put their minds to it, there could be numerous ways of putting it out there.
Such as "men need shelters too!" for the reduction of domestic violence. They are a lot easier to carry than signs, and it goes everywhere. The mall, the park, the store. And can be real popular on event days where groups are uniting etc..
Its easy to make up a screen and do single colours, its very cheap along with shirts. I was doing it for a while with other projects. In bulk I can do a single shirt for under $10 and the shirts are not that bad. But the better the shirt the more expensive it is.
But here's a list of expenses.
Cost of shirts in bulk per shirt regular fruitofaloom or hanes plain white any size 50% cotton polyester, $3.50. Ink, something like $40 for a bottle slightly more for colour. I think I can get a screen for under $50.
So after that a hundred shirts can be made for under $10 Canadian, and once you have the screen, your only cost is shirt and ink and your time. making each shirt to around $4. a shirt.
But again with better shirts its more expensive, but add comfort. So even for $20 shirt yu can really get a message out there. Such as choice4men (maybe not a work shirt) Angry Harry, or our favorite MANN(mens activism news network).
Even Bills that you want to get exposure too etc. The list goes on and on.
It does kind of beat just plain old black. (inserted to remain somewhat on topic : ) )
.
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Monday August 19, @05:25PM EST (#11)
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Agreed on all counts, Dan.
However, we need to make it clear to some; to not be an idiot and use BLACK lettering on a BLACK T-shirt.
Believe it or not (Rippley) I HAVE actually seen people DO this.(^_^)
Thundercloud.
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Dear Dan
My view of "Fascism" comes from the greatest Republic of all - the great
Roman Empire.
The Romans were united against anykind of oppression and their unity was
symbolised by a bunch or reeds held together by two pieces of cloth called a
fascio. Hence the word fascism.
We are bound together against the oppression of the Family Court and other
injustices perpetrated against the marriage, family and children.
Further, I take my personal fortitude from the valiant and heroic efforts of
the 300 Spartans at Thermopaelia in 480 B.C who fought incredible odds to
protect their families.
They did not give ground, neither shall we.
Yours
John Abbott
Blackshirts
.
Dan Lynch
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My view of "Fascism" comes from the greatest Republic of all - the great Roman Empire.
This declaration was a tragic mistake on the part of John Abbott. By asserting this simple statement, he has made the BlackShirts into a fascist political group. He is no longer of value to the men's movement because of his fascism and political views.
All Abbott does is harm the men's movement and make responsible men that would otherwise join the movement apprehensive. That is a terrible tragedy. We need to publicly oppose this group if we want to continue to appeal to responsible professionals. We need to be very vocal in our opposition to the Blackshirts in order to appear more mainstream and thus desirable to the professionals.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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This declaration was a tragic mistake on the part of John Abbott. By asserting this simple statement, he has made the BlackShirts into a fascist political group. He is no longer of value to the men's movement because of his fascism and political views.
Like it or not, since you are in the men's movement, you get tarred with that same PR brush. Go to any womans board who talk about the NAzis on this place and places like it. Welcome to the Fascist club, Herr Fascist. You're a member whether you like it or noit. And not because of Mr. Abbot. Because the pheminazis SAY you are, because that's what their PR machine is going to repeat as a litany. Until you jusyt shut up accept what is coming to you for years of oppression, you male turd.
Mr. Abbot is going to be called a fascist no matter what, and any attempt at denying it is just going to be held as prima facie evidence that he really is, with the old, "Methinks the gent doth protest too much" variety of attack.
Where I sit, Mr Abbot has decided to give a "whatever" response to these charges and not waste his energy fighting where he can't win. I think that is a smart move. It's the job of our PR arm to counter that spin, not Mr. Abbot's, so my question is, "Why aren't our PR people doing their collective job?"
All Abbott does is harm the men's movement and make responsible men that would otherwise join the movement apprehensive. That is a terrible tragedy.
Ditherers rarely join in such lack of numbers as to make their participation statistically zero. And it's been my observaytion that they are extremely likely to back away and drop support when real action is needed, when they are really depenmded on, so where is the loss?
We need to publicly oppose this group if we want to continue to appeal to responsible professionals. We need to be very vocal in our opposition to the Blackshirts in order to appear more mainstream and thus desirable to the professionals.
Amateurs built the Ark. Professionals built the Titanic. Your call. As for me, I personally can't think of a single revolution ever waged by a professional army.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Well put.
When the men’s movement can stand on it’s message and it’s message alone. When half the men don’t need to faint when they here we word fascist because they believe in their message. When a “men’s group” doesn’t fall apart when a fembot cries “misogynist” because they have conviction in their message. That will be the day so called men’s groups will be taken seriously. So far, the only “men’s group” I see behaving in this pattern are The Blackshirts.
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Stay tuned, waiting is the hard part, but stay tuned some key people are starting to do some good things, more on the professional level. Prayer, if your so inclined, is always appreciated.
Ray
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Sure Ray, anytime now. Of course it won’t be before Boxer’s bill passes but anytime now for sure. It won’t be before another 3,000,000 men commit suicide but any time now for sure. It won’t be before another 10,000,000 get kicked out of their children’s life but wait, stay tuned, things will change anytime now. Tell me Ray, why is it that when so called “professionals” come to ask/rein for our support that the first thing that comes out of their mouth is: they have an image to maintain? Why are millions of children’s lives less important than their image? I don’t get it. When someone tells me someone needs to protect their image in the face of all this carnage, guess what I think?
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When will the carnage end?
---------------
[manworth] Terence Has Left the Building
Gentlemen,
Some of you know me, Terence Moore, as the owner of
Manworth@YahooGroups and Masculist_Leaders@YahooGroups, a moderator
on MensRights@YahooGroups, the treasurer of the Legends Father's
Rights Legal Aid Society ("California Constitutional Challenge"), a
member of Live Beat Dads and the National Coalition of Free Men. (My
address was formerly terence@wildfern.net, but I no longer have a
public email address.)
As you may know, I was jailed for 16 days in May when my wife accused
me of battery in order to get sole custody of our children. Many of
you came to my aid by writing letters to the court on my behalf.
This happened only 3 months ago, but I was an advocate for father's
rights for many years prior.
What you may not know is why I became an advocate long before I
apparently needed such advocacy. Simply put, my wife was
psychologically abusive toward me and emotionally absent for our
entire 17-year marriage. I put up with this because I kept hoping
she would come around and--more to the point--because I knew I would
be worse off in divorce. I knew that fathers always lose, and
nothing was more important to me than my children. I lived without
love in order to avoid being destroyed by divorce. This was a
motivator in my advocacy work.
But I wasn't just a perfunctory husband--I followed the advice of a
wise friend to love her patiently in spite of it. Of course, I
didn't do it perfectly, but I did it well. As a result of this
approach, my wife made tremendous strides in personal growth over the
years. She began to blossom, and it looked like love might triumph
in the end. But instead, on May 9th, she made up her mind resolutely
to end our marriage. She had to reach her goal, and could
not "afford" to think about how it would affect the children and I.
Fortunately, I had prepared for this as best I could. I was a full-
time father for the last 3 years, and a homeschool teacher for the
last 8 months. I made the most of the time I had with my beloved
children. I have no regrets. Only nausea every time I think about
them. I understand the men who try to forget.
Sure enough, divorce is destroying me. I am in a better position to
understand now from first-hand experience the grief many of you
suffered before me as a result of your divorces. Although I have
been fighting my own court cases for only 3 months, I endured a
loveless marriage for 17 years before that, and survived decades of
oppression in a religious cult before that, and an unusually
difficult childhood even before that. I am as drained as you men who
have been fighting anti-male prejudice on the streets for decades;
and ill-equipped to fight this, my greatest battle of all. It is
time to find peace.
I would not have survived another year in jail. If the jail were to
deny me my medicine again as they did before, I may have had a heart
attack. Be that as it may, I surely would have lost the will to
live. I would have lost my honor in jail listening to incessant
stories about theft and drug deals. Even after release, I would have
lost my children's respect when they began to wonder why our visits
had to be supervised. I would have lost my self-respect by
grovelling and allowing myself to be manipulated for a mere passing
moment of visitation with my children, who are being influenced to
hate me anyway. I would have lost all joy, having to grieve the loss
of my children over and over again after each visit. I would have
lost all hope if I had nothing to look forward to but decades of
persecution over the extortion they call "child support". And for
what? I was a model husband and father. I would have lost my faith
on having to accept decades of unjust punishment. I deserve better
than this. All men do!
My choice, quite simply, was to live or to die. I have taken on a
new identity, moved to another jurisdiction, explored ways to remain
anonymous, and I will survive, at least for now. I will have hope,
at least for now. I am not a fugitive from justice, but rather from
INjustice. If my children should ever ask me, I will tell them that
they are under no moral obligation to obey unjust law.
Nothing is more grievous to me than to lose my beloved children. But
even if I had stayed, I had already lost them. The system, driven by
greed and stereotype and mythology and hatred, drives fathers and
children apart. My wife, blindly believing that the system is fair
(or ignoring that question in favor of personal gain) gave it her
full support. I am now convinced that, by working within the system,
justice is unavailable to men, aside from rare exceptions. May your
case be one of those exceptions.
It has become my imperative to keep myself alive, because one day my
children may come looking for me, and upon so doing, I wish them to
find me, so that--just maybe--a healing can occur between my
children. Then there will be no angry wife alienating them from me,
there will be no police at her beckon call. Perhaps then there can
be a healing without the interference of outside forces that could
not occur with them.
I am forced down a path that my father walked before me. It seems I
am powerless to do otherwise, as if it is my destiny. I was the
youngest, and the same age as my youngest is now. My mother had my
father thrown in jail likewise. He left town likewise. Not because
he didn't care, but because he was beaten by a system rigged against
him. Likewise. When I looked for him, it was too late--he had
already died. Having lost my father as a child was one of the
greatest losses of my life, a loss my sons are now suffering. (The
system considers it a trivial loss, but the system is ignorant of
men's souls.) I have given a huge chunk of my life to save my sons
from that loss, but I did my best, and can do no more. May I survive
long enough for them to find me.
After learning how to secure default with the help of
LegalAidSociety.net, the DA defaulted, and I actually won my case
according to law. But the judge was biased, deceptive, and
vindictive; and would not acknowledge it. Your judge may not be so
corrupt, so you may do better than I did. But you will still need
the help of LegalAidSociety.net, and they need your help. Although
their work is focused on California now, it may soon be in the U.S.
Supreme Court, the ruling of which will apply to all states, and with
the potential to extend to all common-law countries. Please support
LegalAidSociety.net.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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As you may know, I was jailed for 16 days in May when my wife accused me of battery in order to get sole custody of our children. Many of you came to my aid by writing letters to the court on my behalf. This happened only 3 months ago, but I was an advocate for father's rights for many years prior.
Okay. That explains one hell of allot. I was trying to figure out the dramatic change in tone and the absence from the board. I may not agree with all of your views, but I have the insight to know why you have those views.
People cannot know how dramatic of a change occurs in men's lives when they are jailed on false accusations unless they have had the experience. The result is the most profound emotional change that anybody can experience. It is permanent and lasting. Even a few hours in jail are sufficient to cause a profound change in a man. The trauma from that experience can never be completely overcome.
Jailing on false accusations is worse for a man than what rape is to a woman. Yet many women will not hesitate to inflict that upon a man. This single act of rape by women that is so widespread conclusively demonstrates their capacity for cruelty. There is no other experience that can violate a person more.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Actually, warble, I got mailed that from Terrance, who has now gone on the lam - I thought I had been clear enough on that.
I have had my own fish to fry; without going into details that might tend to incriminate, the absolute right to remain silent is a blessing, I don't have to talk to feminist stormtr - er, the police if I am not under arrest, and if I was, I don't have to talk to them either.
I was held for 48 hours trying to coerce me into giving up where a friend of mine "kidnapped" his kids to. Nothing like being threatened as well with the spreading of the rumor of child molester, too. It got swept under the rug after she was caught with a meth lab. Of course, part of the deal there is that they will drop the charges against him just so long as I don't go public and "embarass" them.
To make matters worse, the guy's own mother was trying to get me to give him up, and her arguments boiled down to "If they can do that to her, even if she is a witch, female privilege everywhere is threatened." His mother. Pity that isn't isolated. The men's group I have helped organized is full of guys who are estranged from female family for joining a "men's group."
Speaking of which, the support group I run for estranged fathers has had to move twice because we were to politically incorrect.
So yeah, though, you're right. I am fed up with the system. I write this from a public terminal, too, because I have reason to believe my private account is being monitored. I don't dare log into AUM, as I had a few of the things I wrote there shoved into my face; Tom, if you're out there, don't think I have disappeared. I've found, shall we say, curious software on my personal computer, so I am being circumspect where I post from to various boards.
No, I do not trust the law or the system anymore. What happens with people like terrance only serves to reinforce my growing conviction that it's broke beyond any repair; nor do I believe that the women who are genuinely on our side are anything but few and far between.
So, yes, you're damn straight on a few counts.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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...the absolute right to remain silent is a blessing....
It is the one and only effective method that can be used against false charges. Men everywhere must learn this to keep from being railroaded.
...write this from a public terminal, too, because I have reason to believe my private account is being monitored....
Of course the account is being monitored. A search warrant is the first thing police get. They want anything they can use for a set-up. I’ve seen a few times now how the suppress all exonerating evidence.
No, I do not trust the law or the system anymore
With good justification. The system is badly broken. But I do not believe it is beyond repair. Keep safe always.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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"It's the job of our PR arm to counter that spin, not Mr. Abbot's, so my question is, "Why aren't our PR people doing their collective job?"
What P.R. people? Guess what, it is being worked on now. I'm cautiously optimistic, and hopeful that you will see some things start to take shape. This is a very grassroots things, but stay tuned.
Ray
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Oh my. They have kidnapped my children, they have destroyed 20 years of my life and they keep stealing 75 percent of my income. But if I don’t stand up and denounce a group of people I know nothing about…well that just shows how justified we are in destroying you and your children’s life. Oh my.
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" But if I don’t stand up and denounce a group of people I know nothing about"
I'm not going to waste any resources on it. Splitting hairs over a term is a waste.
The cause is fairness for men. AS far as Abbott is concerned he's innocent until proven guilty.
Same goes for McElroy who I wished would drop that feminism thing, but hey, she fights for fairness does she not? Not only that she's risked a great deal of her reputation doing so
.
Dan Lynch
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AS far as Abbott is concerned he's innocent until proven guilty
Well, last time I looked, it wasn’t a crime to own personal political views. I have had contact with Australian men and I think I know what the average g’dayer stands for, so I am the least unconcerned of what Abbot’s political views may be.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday August 20, @05:12PM EST (#40)
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I don't know if any one else has seen it or not, But there are also Billboards in Austrailia, advertiseing "VOODOO JEANS." These billboards show a Woman walking two NAKED MEN on leashes, on all fours like DOGS!! The bondage\S&M overtones are not even a LITTLE subtle.
These adverts are in plain view for ALL to see, includeing CHILDREN!!!!
I don't know if The "Blackshirts" are protesting this with the other things in general. but If not they SHOULD be.
This is just ONE of a million things that Aussie Men have to endure in their, increaseingly, anti-male country. So perhaps we shouldn't be too quick to judge them.
I wonder what the reaction of American Men will be when those billboards start popping up here.
Thundercloud.
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I wonder what the reaction of American Men will be when those billboards start popping up here.
For the most part, very probably, spineless submission.
This is just ONE of a million things that Aussie Men have to endure in their, increaseingly, anti-male country. So perhaps we shouldn't be too quick to judge them.
Compared to the fascists in Italy and the Nazis in Germany, the blackshirts of contemporary Australia are extremely tame. The powers that be should realize that today's blackshirts are just a shot across the bow. Things haven't even begun to get serious.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday August 20, @06:21PM EST (#45)
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I know this is somewhat off-toppic but in a way, it's not.
I made a search on the "VOODOO" billboard.
First I have a correction to make; it is hosiery not jeans that the ad is selling.
The company that makes the hosiery is called "KOLOTEX". It is one of their ad execs. (a Woman, No suprise) who came up with this sickening ad for the billboard.
BTW, any one that doesn't believe me about this ad\billboard can see it for themselves at...
WWW.Wilsonsalmanac.com/voodoohtml
Or do a search themselves, Keywords; kolotex, voodoo, billboard, Anti-male, ad.
Those are the ones I used.
I hope you don't throw up when you see it.
I nearly did.
...I have enough aggrevation...
Thundercloud.
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This reminds me of a Rolling Stones billboard that was put up on Hollywood Blvd. a decade or so ago. A woman was tied up or something (Mick's a little kinky perhaps). The femi's raised holly heck, and made a giant issue out of it. I don't remember what happened. I looked at feminism as just another political cause. I didn't see the train coming then, like I do now.
I think the sign was eventually taken down after those expoitive capitalists made a few extra bucks out of the free coverage the whole thing generated.
Ray
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I will tell you all right now that if this billboard shows up in my neighborhood, I will go straight to the hardware store and collect the appropriate amount of spray paint and cover it with the word 'misandry.' And if it's too high up for me to get it with spray paint, I will use a long-handled roller. And if I can't get to it that way, I may burn it down.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday August 20, @05:28PM EST (#44)
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I know. That's what scares me, Thomas.
But fight on we must.
Thundercloud.
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Here's the link. The Advertising Standards Board of Australia states that there's nothing wrong with this degradation of males because it's "a satirical comment on a patriarchal world." Clearly, if we lived in a patriarchal world, we would never see this type of billboard. The fact is, we live in a very evil matriarchal world.
Yup. It irritated me. Men, who don't protest this sort of thing, are contemptible fools. If justice ever prevails, the people behind this sort of degradation (think of what it does to little boys, when they see this) should be sentenced to decades in prison at hard labor.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday August 21, @02:18AM EST (#57)
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Thomas, Thank you for posting the link. I'm still new to this whole computer thing and don't yet know how to do things like that, Plus I don't yet have the software.
Like you, I was amazed and yet NOT amazed, at the same time, that the A. S. B. A. found "no problem" with this ad.
I wonder how many "wymin" and wussy-poopie men sit on that board.
And yeah, "patriarchal world" My @$$.
As an Indian I could very easily say "It's a white persons world", But would THAT be any excuse to post advertisments degrading and humiliating white people??!!?? Of course not! PLUS it would NEVER be tolerated, Nor should it be.
SHEESH. you'd think we wouldn't HAVE to EXPLAIN something as simple as this to some people, would you?
Any way, slowly but surely as I study the increase of anti-male bigotry in both America and Austrailia (As well as Canada) The more I see a NEED for "Radicals" like the "Blackshirts".
Thundercloud.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday August 21, @02:42AM EST (#59)
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Actually, Ray, I would have sided with the "femi"s on this one.
I do vaugely remember the "tied up girl" billboard.
and yeah, I do think it was degradeing to women, and that removeing it WAS the right thing to do.
Something like that is just as likely to harm young girls psycologicaly as this stupid "Voodoo" pantyhose ad is likely to harm young boys in the same way.
The trouble is that WAY too many women, marx-fems and wussy-poopie men, for some un-fathomable reason don't seem to "get" that. That's why we no longer see "tied up girl" billboards, but women walking naked men on a leash is considered "OKAY".
Like I told Thomas, in another post on this thread, We need "Radicals" like the "Blackshirts" in THIS country and in Canada, as well.
I think the "Blackshirts" TRIED reasoning with their "opponents" but THAT didn't work. That is WHY they are doing what they are.
WE in THIS country keep trying to reason with our "opponents" as well. You can see how well THAT is WORKING.
...I have enough aggrevation...
THUNDERCLOUD.
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We need "Radicals" like the "Blackshirts" in THIS country and in Canada, as well.
Yes. Agreed. But they don't have to be fascists to protest or hold out fascist views that taint the men's movement.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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"As an Indian I could very easily say "It's a white persons world", But would THAT be any excuse to post advertisments degrading and humiliating white people??!!?? Of course not! PLUS it would NEVER be tolerated, Nor should it be. "
Thats the arguement right there. By allowing "Hatred" to cultivate it only continues the problem regardless of how large or how small the group his. Its not that I want to be a PC thought police, its just that why should one have advantage over the other? And for those morons who think they are riding racism and sexism by using racism and sexism, well I have a few words for you.
btw its just a sickness, hatred destroys spirituality , when our spirituality dies our cultures die with it. Because we have learned to hate, to discriminate. Even if its primarily against just one group, in the end it always will reflect on us. We eventually hate our own kind, maybe not publicly at first but eventually our developed skills in hate rise to the surface for everyone to feel its sting.
It was wrong for people to enslave others or to still their land, but we can get past this if we really want to. Uniting manhood and masculinity is the way to defeat that hatred of feminism and racism.
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Dan Lynch
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"Yes. Agreed. But they don't have to be fascists to protest or hold out fascist views that taint the men's movement. "
Feminists have this problem as well. So many of them advocate for 'gendercide'. And when I confront the febots on it , its always "well there are definately radicals"
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Dan Lynch
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I am very inimical to facism,communism, and feminism. My father, 1st Lt Thomas Mitchell Shaw,while serving with the US Army Infantry during WW II, was wounded at Casino, Italy in combat fighting the NAZIS. One of his brothers was an US Army Air Force Pilot during that same conflict. His other brother was also an US Army Infantry Officer in the European theatre during WW II. However, I agree with you in that I am very upset about the fact that men and men's rights groups and American men in general have not organized aggressively, forcefully, and assertively to promulgate their just rights against female elitism which has elements of both fascism and communism and promulgates means and ends, detrimental to males common to fascism and communism. It appears that the state in Australia, the USA, Canada, and the UK, has succombed to the dictates of an female elistist electoral majority, through Orwellian means and ends, to promulgate female elitism which has, as already described, elements of both fascism and communism. Men should oppose and protect society from fascism, including protecting the most ardent of feminists from the same, but need to aggressively organize and aggressively take "direct action" to promulgate their rights. The Magna Charta and the American Revolution both required "direct action". I believe that the same is requisite now for the very same reasons.
C.V. Compton Shaw
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by Anonymous User on Friday August 23, @12:34AM EST (#133)
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Right, Warb. I agree.
Read my post "I hate to BUG you."
It explains My ideas on the "Blackshirts".
Thundercloud.
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by Anonymous User on Friday August 23, @12:44AM EST (#134)
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((("By allowing hatred to cultivate it only continues the problem no matter how large or how small the group is.")))
Exactly.
I know this sounds corny, but Obiwan, said it best when he told Luke Skywalker...; "Luke, Don't give in to HATE, That path leads to the 'Darkside.'"
Thundercloud.
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Same goes for McElroy who I wished would drop that feminism thing, but hey, she fights for fairness does she not?
Yup. I just can't stand that word, "feminist," just like I can't stand that word, "fascist." And I think it's a mistake to promote either as a good thing.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday August 20, @03:41PM EST (#35)
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I was just thinking.
Maybe we should look at the "Blackshirts" like a 'Bowl of soup with a bug in it.'
By this I mean, The "Black shirts" are the soup and facism is the bug IN the soup.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I just take the bug OUT and eat the soup, anyway.
I PERSONALY think that what the "Blacksirts" are doing is, in SOME ways, what WE should be doing too.
I feel we should watch them, gage their succeses (and failings) and then imulate what they do "right". hence; "takeing the bug out of the soup."
Just a thought.
Thundercloud.
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There was a time when I did a lot of camping…if you couldn’t tolerate an occasional bug in your soup…about the only place you could camp safely would be in someone’s living room.
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LOL!
God that was funny. Anyways; the men's movement has bigger fish to fry.
.
Dan Lynch
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According to the Roman history I was taught, the fasces were a bundle of sticks carried by the consuls of the early Roman Republic as symbols of their authority, which authority extended to inflicting corporal punishment with said fasces upon anyone they observed breaking the law.
Not a terribly liberal idea.
cheers,
sd
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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Yes, up to the point of capital punishment hence the ax embedded in the bundle of rods. It symbolizes the authority of law up to that.
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John Abbot of the Black Shirts, via an email Dan Lynch posted, said:
The Romans were united against anykind of oppression and their unity was symbolised by a bunch or reeds held together by two pieces of cloth called a fascio. Hence the word fascism.
The symbol for the Italian Fascists (Nazi supporters) during WWII was of a wheat sheaf (or sticks) bound together with an axe head in the top. They were called, I think, 'fasces.'
The word 'fascia,' which is the name of the membrane that forms the sheath around nerves and muscles, comes from the same root. I think 'fasten' does, too.
I can understand where he's getting his symbolism, but it's an unfortunate choice of words and not very politically astute. The word has a fixed and negative meaning to the general, relatively historically unaware, public.
Kinda like being a happy, pleasant fellow and referring to yourself as 'gay.' There's just no escaping the first impression. The meaning of 'gay' as 'joyful' is obsolete. It has only one meaning to the public now.
Their choice of name is also ill-advised -- it sounds too much like Hitler's 'Brown Shirts.' Their logo's not so bad; it's two boomerangs forming an 'S,' but even that does bear some resemblance to a swastika, and to the symbol of the 'SS.'. Then add the black hats and the masks... (yeah, I know why they wear the masks.)
I don't have a problem with their professed aims; indeed, I support them. But their *image* adds up to an inevitable association with Nazis.
Maybe they're just going for shock value (and they are getting some press) but I think they've unneccessarily put obstacles in their own path. There's other good images, names, and symbols they could have chosen.
It seems a real obvious political faux pas, so why are they doing it?
Ragtime
The opinions expressed in this posting are my own, but you're welcome to adopt them.
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I can understand where he's getting his symbolism, but it's an unfortunate choice of words and not very politically astute.
Agreed. In fact it demonstrates that Abbott has the (IMHO) the political I.Q. of a 2 year old.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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All Abbott does is harm the men's movement and make responsible men that would otherwise join the movement apprehensive. That is a terrible tragedy. We need to publicly oppose this group if we want to continue to appeal to responsible professionals. We need to be very vocal in our opposition to the Blackshirts in order to appear more mainstream and thus desirable to the professionals.
Warble
I'm not joining you in a "blacklisting", Warble.
What you don't seem to understand is that alot of those "responsible professionals" were running the concentration camps. Social class tells you nothing -- its always the choices one makes that determine what one is.
So here's what I'll do: I'll support those "blackshirts", as long as they behave themselves, and I'll support you so long as you appear to be making progress toward men's rights.
I'll do both quietly, and I won't cause embarrasment to one or the other. And if you can understand the benefits of our constitutional democratic republic, you might be less inclined to worry about about movements with a less than pure democratic ideology. Pure democracy protects NO ONE's rights.
Remo
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What you don't seem to understand is that alot of those "responsible professionals" were running the concentration camps. Social class tells you nothing -- its always the choices one makes that determine what one is.
The statement was clearly an attempt to suggest that the Blackshirts are a lower-class phenomenon--the professionals would no doubt shrink from this militant, uncultured mob. This was probably not a wise thing to do, but there you have it, plain as day. Fascism would tend to appeal to a disenfranchised class; the professional classes are responsible for the plight of those most likely to first feel the brunt of anti-male legislation--they wrote the laws. Feminists would have no trouble pointing out which "sexist" laws and practices have class and race implications...
but us "professionals" would rather not dirty our hands with such matters.
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What you don't seem to understand is that alot of those "responsible professionals" were running the concentration camps. Social class tells you nothing -- its always the choices one makes that determine what one is.
I believe the phrase "responsible professionals" is being nit picked. Yes there may be a better choice of words. But it should be read to mean "good and honorable people" in the context.
Now as for Abbott he has demonstrated that he isn't making an unfortunate choice of words when he uses the term fascist to describe his group. We find by both his acts and declarations that he is leading a group of fascists.
For this reason, men's rights groups are distancing themselves from Abbott. For example, in this article on alientation we find that "Men's organizations in Australia have distanced themselves from the activities of a group protesting court decisions affecting child custody and visitation rights, but say they feel equally strongly about the issues at stake.
By the Blackshirts own admission they try to, "...show up the remaining parent as an unsuitable candidate for custody, and drive out lovers or same-sex partners "as quickly as possible, before they do any more damage than they've already done...""
You cannot tell any reasonable person that this is okay. Trying to limit a person’s freedom of association is a fascist activity. Their acts are the epitome of intolerance. They are understandably angry. But that doesn't justify their acts of seeking to limit others freedom of association.
It is the right thing for Australian FR's groups to distance themselves from the Blackshirts.
Try reading carefully what the Blackshirts say. For example, I noted the following problems:
1) It is the duty and obligation and the right of every father to protect his children against any moral and physical harm.
So in effect they believe they are the moral police. This is called being a vigilanty. What they want to do is impose their own arbitrary moral codes upon others by intolerance and intimidation.
2) No man can claim that he was unable to protect his children because the 'Law' might penalise him. Society expects that man to "Put his children's welfare first" above his own welfare and interests.
Right. So a woman and man get divorsed. The Blackshirts decide that they don't like the ex's new live-in partner. So they take the law into their hands and act against the couple. That is fascism.
3)The law is based on moral grounds and not on technical grounds. It is not for a man, a father, to first study the law and then decide if and when and what means to use to protect his own children. Every man has the God given knowledge, and facilities to protect his children, and the ability is the embodiment of his conscience.
And just which God's law are they going to enforce? Why not the god of the Muslams. How about the Mormon or Catholic God. No, let's choose the god of the Mbuda Pygmies! Yea! Now let's impose that law upon our ex-wives! This is what the Blackshirts do. It's called intolerance for freedom of religion.
4)We say that the "intruder" corrupts the morals of young by mere fact that they are there, because all children are loyal to their mother and their father.
So if they don't like the "intruder" they take the law into their own hands. They already admit that if the intruder is of the wrong sexual orientation that they hate the person and seek to chase the person away.
5)When a (so called) man is imposed into the family home, the children automatically see this as a betrayal to the father and if a (so called) woman is imposed into the family home the children automatically see this as a betrayal to the mother.
I see. So if the new partner of an ex isn't to the liking of the Blackshirts, that person is to be hated, intimidated, threatened, and chased away. What the Blackshirts really want is to control the sexual activities and associations of their ex-spouse.
Worse they do this because they claim that they want their, "... children to be morally bound, decent, dignified, honest, loyal, law abiding and responsible. "
Gees. Get a clue people. These people are fascists in the true sense of the term. They do not deserve our support.
This isn't the first time that some group of nutcakes incites God's law for justifying violoent and intimidating activites. We only have to look to America's own to see the same sort of wako's. So, yes. If you support the Blackshirts, you support a group that preaches intolerance, elimination of freedom of association, and hate.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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I believe the phrase "responsible professionals" is being nit picked. Yes there may be a better choice of words. But it should be read to mean "good and honorable people" in the context.
It's not nit-picking to point out this politically infelicitous phrase. Your statement without the word "professionals"--a term with suchobvious class implications that it seems silly to dismiss them or to attempt to impose proper readings of your meaning--would be fine.
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This isn't the first time that some group of nutcakes incites God's law for justifying violoent and intimidating activites. We only have to look to America's own to see the same sort of wako's. So, yes. If you support the Blackshirts, you support a group that preaches intolerance, elimination of freedom of association, and hate.
and if you condescendingly dismiss any criticism of your foolish use of the term "professionals", and add insult to injury by accusing others of fascism, you're no better than they are.
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...."professionals", and add insult to injury by accusing others of fascism, you're no better than they are.
Well we disagree here. This is a big difference in how I may have misused the term professionals, then retracted it with a clarification and the use of other clarifying terminology, and Abbott's defense of his fascism that is solely aimed to spread hate and violence.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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... Abbott's defense of his fascism that is solely aimed to spread hate and violence.
Warble, I'm curious. What if Abbott used the term communism rather than fascism. Would you feel the same? Do you think the NCFMLA would write an open letter denouncing the group if this were the case, or would the NCFMLA suddenly become more tolerant?
Communism under Stalin (and others) was as bad if not worse than fascism under Hitler. Stalin was directly and overtly responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people. Would you associate Abbott with Stalin's atrocities if he claimed a connection with communism? If someone defends communism, does this mean they are spreading hate and violence?
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I seem to recall, in the not so distant past:
A. Womyn's activists hiding behind the mask of anonymity, using nom-de-plumes, "Jane Roe," and a host of other things because they felt "threatened."
B. Protests in front of homes, in front of businesses. Protests trying to shame and intimidate men into everything from doing more housework (Remember guys, your 12 hour a day, 6 day a week factory job in potentially lethal conditions, that contribute to your loss of 7 years of lifespan isn't diddly compared to the "burden of being a woman") Wanting more child support, wanting set-aside (Quota) jobs.
C. These same protests including megaphones, the naming of names, and name-calling.
D. Womyn's rallies including the passing out of shirts so everyone was in uniform.
And so on. Matter of fact, these are tactics used by every left-wing, politically correct group when they want their way
Now, based strictly on who is saying it and what they are saying - censorship based on source and content - this is fascist?
Hmmm. Let's look it up my my handy-dandy Mirriam-Webster's
Fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
Hmmmm, exalts gender above the individual, demanding "federal" laws, use of administrative processes instead of legal ones so that the constitution doesn't apply, and silencing of the opposion - wonder which foot that shoe fits on?
I wonder if attempting to disallow opponents the use of legal and peaceful tactics of demonstration and protest - does peaceful assembly and redress of grievances sound even remotely familiar to anyone? If trying to outlaw for a segment of people the strategy which helped achieve their own success, might even be considered to be "suppression of opposition?"
Seems to me that the Blackshirts are fascists not based on what they do, but on who they are and what they say.
One standard for women, and a different, more strict one for men. So what else is new? Ah gots to run now' boy, Massa Missy sho' nuf be pow'ful upset if she find me on here talking wid' the rest o' mah dahkie friends 'bout freein' no slaves....
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Let's look it up my my handy-dandy Mirriam-Webster's
Fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
That's not what I see the Australian blackshirts doing. They don't seem to exalt nation or race above the individual. In fact, they feel the government should stay out of the family and leave the individual father alone. I don't see the Aussie blackshirts supporting a dictatorial leader or severe economic and social regimentation. And I haven't seen that they've used any force to suppress the opposition or to accomplish anything else for that matter. Perhaps these guys wanted to ruffle feathers and send a chill through society by calling themselves fascists. If that was their aim, I'd say they've succeeded.
If any men's group(s) in the US care to adopt the demonstration tactics of the Aussie blackshirts, they would do well to remember that they can avoid some bad press simply by refusing to call themselves fascists and by wearing, for instance, forest green colored uniforms.
They'd still be called fascists, after all they wouldn't be submitting to anti-male hatred and lies, but any good egalitarian is vilified by our mainstream feminists rulers today, so there's not much point in worrying about that. At least they wouldn't be handing a weapon to the feminists and their pet femboys in the government.
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Fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
There is no question but that radical feminism fits this definition. That is what makes it so dangerous.
We see the "severe economic and social regimentation" manifest in the DV laws. We see forcible "suppression of opposition" in their smear tactics of legitimate men's rights groups, and by their use of the mandatory arrest laws to get innocent men arrested and criminalized.
Nevertheless, that doesn't justify Abbott's use of fascism.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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I don't see the Aussie blackshirts supporting a dictatorial leader or severe economic and social regimentation.
I would suggest that this is a mistaken belief. Their leader does in fact dictate which ex-wife is to be targeted. The purpose of the targeting is that the Blackshirts want to drive what they define as an "intruder" out of their ex-wives home. They claim to be doing this in the name of God and for the preservation of the family.
Clearly they are attacking an individuals rightz as a group. There can be no question of this fact. The nation that they are exalting above the individual is a dead one called Rome. They see themselves as being in siege and that their way is the only way.
Finally, they do resort to assaults against the rights of their ex-wives. To create an assault all that is required is to cause a reasonable person the fear of an imminent attack. Their ex-wives are justifiably fearful of them because of their stated intentions to drive out their new spouses or domestic partners.
In America this would be like a man marrying a new wife and her having an ex-husband. Then her ex-husband decides that the new spouse is an intruder into his home and that he's corrupting his children because he belongs to a different church.
So he goes to his church and assembles a group of men who dress in army fatigues with masks. Then they stand outside the home with a megaphone and shout whatever they want for the purpose of driving the man out.
Further, the ex-husband does everything in his power to use his children to psychologically and emotionally attack the "intruder." He even encourages them in the name of the family to try to get the children to drive out the "intruder."
Christ. This is exactly what the Blackshirts are doing. You call this justified? That is absurd! We cannot have the men's movement devolving into a bunch of hate motivated men that want to drive out an "intruder!" That is not what the men's movement is about. Yet it is what the Blackshirts, by their own admission, are doing. I've already documented that fact.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Their leader does in fact dictate which ex-wife is to be targeted. Perhaps I missed it. Where exactly do they say that Abbot is the sole person with absolute, undisputed power (a dictatorial leader), who determines the target of their legal protests?
The nation that they are exalting above the individual is a dead one called Rome. Respecting part of the Roman system is a far cry from exalting the Roman government above the individual. Again, these people stand for less government, not a totalitarian government.
To create an assault all that is required is to cause a reasonable person the fear of an imminent attack. I am very sorry to hear that you agree with the feminists and their laws that if a woman is in fear of an assault, an assault has already taken place. This is simply not true.
I'm not a fan of these people, but making false accusations against them will accomplish nothing good. They do not support a totalitarian government. They are not threatening assault when they protest peacefully and legally and when they notify the police of their demonstrations. Fearing an assault, while police are on hand to protect you, is not the same as being assaulted. To accuse men of assault for peaceful demonstrations in the presence of the police is to falsely accuse men of felonies.
They do not assault. They do not support a totalitarian government. It is a serious mistake to make false accusations against members of the men's movement, just because their legal and peaceful measures are different from those that one might personally choose to employ.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday August 22, @01:32PM EST (#105)
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"They do not assault. They do not support a totalitarian government. It is a serious mistake to make false accusations against members of the men's movement, just because their legal and peaceful measures are different from those that one might personally choose to employ."
You'll never get any kind of apology or admission of error out of him. He's infallible.
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You'll never get any kind of apology or admission of error out of him. He's infallible.
I want to say that warble seems to have put in a lot of time and effort for the men's movement. It would also seem that he's done some good things for us all. I'm not a big fan of these blackshirts. I'm just disagreeing with some of the things that warble says about them.
Perhaps at this point we should just agree to disagree.
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"Perhaps at this point we should just agree to disagree.
In light of other posts, elsewhere on this site, that describe the men's movement as a bunch of quarreling neanderthals (my words), I say:
Here, here!
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..just because their legal and peaceful measures are different from those that one might personally choose to employ.
In my opinion, there is nothing legal or peaceful about the Blackshirts public declaration that they intend to drive out their ex-wive's domestic partners. That kind of behavior would not be acceptable or tolerated in America and it most certainly isn't acceptable in Australia.
As for the denial that the Blackshirts are not acting under the direction of an autocratic leader I will point out that in a democracy we all have the option of lobbying the government. The Blackshirts have made no attempt to change the laws. They are simply going out and victimizing their ex-spouses and children.
Further, if they wanted to demonstrate peacefully why aren't they doing it outside the homes of the leaders and radical feminist that are responsible for the laws which they purport have created their problems? Why spread hate and create a new set of victims out of their ex-wives, children, and their ex-wives spouses? Do you have any idea they kind of emotional damage they are doing to their own children? No of course not.
Peaceful, democratic, family loving people just don't resort to these kinds of hate filled tactics. All they are doing is creating new victims and spreading hate. They are doing exactly what in my opinion, autocratic, despotic, totalitarian leaders do. They are terrorizing innocent victims.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Do you have any idea they kind of emotional damage they are doing to their own children? No of course not.
Wrong, warble. Back off the ugly personal attacks.
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Perhaps at this point we should just agree to disagree.
Probably a good idea. I have a little more of a reaction about the Blackshirts tactics because I've experienced very similar tactics from my wife's ex-husband and his church. They did everything but protest outside of our home. It was hell. Like the Blackshirts, it was their stated intent to drive me away.
The result of their hate was nothing more than emotional damage to the kids and my having him thrown in jail. The group left me with no choice.
This is how I see the Blackshirts, and it is that experience that colors my vision of the Blackshirts. That perception isn't going to change. There are just too many similarities between my personal experience and the horror the Blackshirts are inflicting on their children and ex-wives.
It is therefore my opinion that the Blackshirts are doing a great evil to their own children.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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"One standard for women, and a different, more strict one for men. So what else is new? Ah gots to run now' boy, Massa Missy sho' nuf be pow'ful upset if she find me on here talking wid' the rest o' mah dahkie friends 'bout freein' no slaves.... "
Nice!!
Dan Lynch
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Do you have any idea they kind of emotional damage they are doing to their own children? No of course not.
Wrong, warble. Back off the ugly personal attacks.
Opps. I should have made this more neutral. Guess I did go a bit far. My apologies.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Warble:
Now I understand a little better. Strong opinions often come from personal experiences (good and bad). I've certainly got a few of those myself.
Best Wishes, Ray
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Yea. And I'm tending to modify my views on the Blackshirts a bit. Let me see. I’m going to open my mind and reconsider all of the facts.
I am open to factual evidence that shows they are justified in their protesting at the homes of their ex’s and causing potential emotional harm to their children. Unfortunately, there are no arguments that I know of that justify this tactic. The more that I learn of their reasons for protesting in this manner they more that I believe they are targeting the wrong people.
Therefore, I continue to believe they should renounce their fascism and I believe they need to go after political targets with their protest and not their ex's with their children at home.
I really believe they go too far with their statement, “We say that the "intruder" corrupts the morals of young by mere fact that they are there, because all children are loyal to their mother and their father.”
That is clearly over the edge. It is like saying that if a step-father has a different religion than the biological father that they are evil and to be chased away. That is a terribly intolerant thing for the Blackshirts to say and do. They assume that the children will never choose their own system of morals and that the moral system that is chosen must be their own.
Then there is the image of children knowing that dad’s Blackshirts’ group is protesting outside of the home with the Blackshirts intending to “….drive out lovers or same-sex partners…"
I just have to wonder how many of these Blackshirts had lovers on the side while they were married? How many of them committed adultery or whatever? Maybe they are all free of guilt. But does that justify their tactics? The responsible fathers rights groups in Australia don’t believe so and they publicly state this fact. I believe we should follow suit.
I can just see the Blackshirts monitoring the lives of their ex’s to see if they approve of the religious morals and ideals of the new men that their ex’s happen to meet. Do we really want the men’s movement to be monitoring the sex lives of their ex’s? NO! Of course not.
Now an example of a valid target would be the Family Court chief justice Alastair Nicholson who is responsible for some of the problems that the Blackshirts are experiencing. There is no question but that the issues that the Blackshirts face are valid men’s issues. This is in a large part what the men’s movement is about.
So why is Abbott letting the real enemy off? Why isn’t he outside of the judges home protesting his anti-male views?
The article notes, “Abbott remains embittered by his own experience.
As he tells it, his happy family collapsed in 1990 after his wife had an affair with a man building their new home. As a Catholic, he refused her a divorce and fought unsuccessfully for custody of their two sons.
"I went to the Family Court, and they said to me that until I changed my attitude towards my wife's present partner, I couldn't see my children."
There are of course two sides to every story. I wonder what the story of his ex is?
So again my question is why isn’t he having a protest outside the home of that judge that was so biased and bigoted against him? That is his real enemy. What his wife did may have been morally wrong, but that is freedom baby. People have the right to have an affair and divorce. Further, he is clearly in a power struggle with his ex as demonstrated by his refusal to get a church divorce. He probably actually believes he's still married! So I wonder if he believes that he will have two wives if he remarries?
The article also reports, “Abbott said the system was responsible for corrupting children by destroying the concepts of family, adult responsibilities and adult morality.”
Well if Abbott believes the system is responsible why isn’t he going after these corrupt judges and politicians? Now that would be real activism. No instead he goes after ex’s and tries to chase away their spouses while wearing masks and black uniforms. What a coward!
Gees. This guy really is a nutcase…..in my humble opinion.
The more I learn about Abbott and the Blackshirts the more I become solidified in my opinion. Now if somebody can demonstrate why I should change my opinion I’ll be glad to listen.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Now I understand a little better. Strong opinions often come from personal experiences (good and bad). I've certainly got a few of those myself.
Yea. They tend to color my views a bit on this matter. So I should be more careful with my own personal bias.
I tend to believe that Thomas may be right and that the Blackshirts do not support totalitarianism, authoritarianism, or a dictatorship. I'm also not certain if they are committing an assault as of yet. There are portions of their language that makes the think they are crossing the line and that is why I took that stance. But Thomas is a reasonable person. So, I'm going to pull back on that one for a while. I believe he may be right. But if he is wrong....I’ll give him hell later :).
I also agree with Gonzo that the best approach is to try to needle them to change their public support of fascism and try to get them to target political enemies. He is most certainly right that alienating them is the wrong thing to do.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Friday August 23, @01:00AM EST (#135)
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((("Pet femboys")))
Thomas.
That's a GOOD name for them. It describes them PERFECTLY!
Do we have your permission to use it?
Up to now I've always called them "Woosie-poopies". But I like your word for them just as much, if not more.
Thundercloud.
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Opps. I should have made this more neutral. Guess I did go a bit far. My apologies. No problem. These things get heated. We can shake it off and move on. As someone pointed out (Ray, I think), these things are somewhat easy to deal with in part because of our remove and relative anonymity on the Web. Also, we are dealing with people with whom we have a common interest here. Those factors go away, when we're dealing with man-hating feminists and the feminist government in real life.
Thomas is a reasonable person. So, I'm going to pull back on that one for a while. I believe he may be right. But if he is wrong....I’ll give him hell later :) Thanks for the compliment. The feeling is mutual. As for giving me hell later, there's nothing like a reasonable argument with a fair minded person. I'm sure we'd, sort of, enjoy it. All the best.
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That's a GOOD name (femboys) for them. It describes them PERFECTLY!
Do we have your permission to use it?
Absolutely. I'm proud to have come up with that title for the men who grovel for feminazis. I encourage its use.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday August 24, @12:12AM EST (#149)
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Cool.
and let's DO incourage the usage of that title.
Like I said it is VERY descriptive of those spinless, groveling, "Uncle Toms".
Thanks again.
Thundercloud.
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“1) It is the duty and obligation and the right of every father to protect his children against any moral and physical harm.
So in effect they believe they are the moral police. This is called being a vigilanty. What they want to do is impose their own arbitrary moral codes upon others by intolerance and intimidation.”
You are right. It is Warble’s right and duty to decide what “morally” children should learn.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday August 21, @05:01PM EST (#90)
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"You are right. It is Warble’s right and duty to decide what “morally” children should learn."
I'll second that. Warble has unapologetically usurped the moral high ground.
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All Abbott does is harm the men's movement and make responsible men that would otherwise join the movement apprehensive. That is a terrible tragedy. We need to publicly oppose this group if we want to continue to appeal to responsible professionals. We need to be very vocal in our opposition to the Blackshirts in order to appear more mainstream and thus desirable to the professionals.
Sometime I wonder what is worse for the men's movement: an Abbot aligning himself with fascism, or underestimating the judgement of responsible men on account of a disenfranchised group who have come to believe they have nothing left to lose.
Unless you've seen responsible men back away from the men's movement on account of the Blackshirts, to suggest that they are having this effect is a lack of faith and an indictment of responsible men who are too weak-minded and the weak-willed to be of much use to the men's movement anyway.
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Unless you've seen responsible men back away from the men's movement on account of the Blackshirts, to suggest that they are having this effect is a lack of faith and an indictment of responsible men who are too weak-minded and the weak-willed to be of much use to the men's movement anyway.
Are you kidding? If members of the men's movement don't know of other men that are alienated by the fascism of the Blackshirts then they are probably hiding in corners and failing to talk to their friends or express their views. Again, we don't need to be giving the news media any reasons to be calling us fascists. That is an extremely stupid thing for men to do.
Christ. I cannot believe the number of men who are here and ignorantly supporting Abbott's brand of fascism just because Abbott tried to give it some innocent definition. You guys aren't really so weak minded as to think that you can secretly support Abbott with his fascist views are you? What next? If some pseudo-KKK group of right wing extremist in America burns down homes of their ex-wives that denies visitation are you going to secretly support the group? Hell. These groups already exist in America. In my opinion, many of the fr’s groups are little more than the KKK in disguise. Try looking at the language of the Live-Beat dad Supreme Court filing in CA. I believe, there is all kinds of white supremacist language in that document. The men I know of roundly condemn that document as bigoted.
So what are you guys going to do? Get your asses kicked by a couple of fem-bots and then turn into pseudo-Nazi’s or join some remade KKK FR’s group? If that’s your solution to feminism then we might as well close-up shop and go home. I’m not going to support some pseudo-Nazi’s even if they are right about the injustices that men suffer in Australia. That is a very stupid thing for men to do. Make no mistake about it, these guys are fascists no matter how they try to soften the definition.
If the men’s movement is so weak minded that they are going to take a stance of neutrality against a group of pseudo-Nazi’s or secretly support them then we have big problems. If the day comes where the men’s movement turns into a bunch of pseudo-fascists that is the day I will quit the men’s movement and join the feminist in fighting against the fascism of the men’s movement.
The fact of the matter is that all fascists have claimed to have ideals of peace and etc. Yet they are bigoted against other groups that fail to confirm to their demanding ideals. That is what defines fascism, and in my opinion that is what defines the Blackshirts. But if you guys are dumb enough to think you can equivocate on the term and that the public won’t know what is happening then so be it.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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If the men’s movement is so weak minded that they are going to take a stance of neutrality against a group of pseudo-Nazi’s or secretly support them then we have big problems. If the day comes where the men’s movement turns into a bunch of pseudo-fascists that is the day I will quit the men’s movement and join the feminist in fighting against the fascism of the men’s movement
From your emotional, accusatory response I suspect you'd like to believe nonsense that I'm a crypto-fascist; but my point is that the emphasis on the effect of the Blackshirt's distancing professionals from the men's movement instead of everyone was ill-considered, elitist, and you should own up to it.
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Warble, fascist is a term that has been applied to John Abbot and the Blackshirts. It's been applied to just about every segment of the men's movement, including such toadying, hail-to-one-sided-chivalry groups such as Promise Keepers. If it has men, ergo it must be fascist.
Abbot strikes me as a man who is like the gay guy embracing the word "queer" or the black guy using the word "nigger." If that logic of distancing from everything that gets painted with that brush follows through, it's been long past time to have Scott shut down this site. I first checked out this site because of a reference from some feminazi to the "fascists over at the MANN boards." I figured any bunch called fascists by the queens of fascism had to be a danger to them.
So we have what? People who protest publically and point the finger. They don't throw molotov cocktails, they don't block driveways, they call attention to their cause.
Funny how we don't call women who block their husband's driveways and protest their place of work calling them "dead-beats" and "abusers" aren't fascists. From what I have learned of John, he got his inspiration after some women who were doing that got the official "okeydokey" from the aussie courts. Freedom of speech, ya know.
One rule for men, another for women, though. Tie that hand behind your back, mate, and provce what a macho jackass you are or you're nop man at all.
They dress in Black Shirts. A nice, cheap, readily available uniform, which any man can wear in stealth support at the very least. Would red, the color of anger, be any better? Perhaps white, associated with the KKK? Brown? Oh. no, we've had the brown shirts. What color would make people happy? Maybe purple, for gay pride? Pink, for the Breast Cancer Nazis? (Give money to us to find the cure or you are Anti-Woman Male misogynist PIGS!!!!)
Their symbol. I'm not even going to go into it here. Sell your Proctor and Gamble. They're satanists.
What exactly is fascist about insisting women keep their commitments, and keep fathers involved in their children's lives, and being held to the same standard as men?
Of course, with the wuestion I have answered my own question.
Show me - SHOW ME - any overt, substantial, objective, and traceable act of initiated violence and I may change my mind. Women playing the old and tired "I feel threatened" card doesn't count. Until then, you are as far as I can see swallowing the scare tactiocs of the pheministas hook, line, and sinker.
And I bet they are laughing at you. More men silenced. Sweet!
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Abbot strikes me as a man who is like the gay guy embracing the word "queer" or the black guy using the word "nigger." If that logic of distancing from everything that gets painted with that brush follows through, it's been long past time to have Scott shut down this site.
I disagree with this. I also disagree with Warble's wording that the Blackshirts' fasism will dissuade professionals from joining the men's movement; more inclusive language would have been appropriate. Moreover, instead of acknowledging this, Warble saw fit to implicitly accuse me and others of an insufficiently negative view of the Blackshirts bordering on crypto-fascism, instead of admitting that the emphasis of the negative effect of the Blackshirt's fascism on professionals was perhaps unfortunate, since he would not want to suggest that non-professionals were of any less concern to the men's movement than professionals.
Now, I'm not condoning fascism by making this statement--that should be obvious. I'm agreeing with Warble that we should denounce it. I disagree that we should denounce it because we might lose professionals. That's wrong. Accusing others of fascism for pointing this out is irresponsible.
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Show me - SHOW ME - any overt, substantial, objective, and traceable act of initiated violence and I may change my mind. Women playing the old and tired "I feel threatened" card doesn't count. Until then, you are as far as I can see swallowing the scare tactiocs of the pheministas hook, line, and sinker.
This is documented from quotes and explicit statements on their site in another post.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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ONe thing I certainly like about Abbott, is that they are pointing the fingers at those institutes that are generating 100s of millions of dollars a year destroying families.
Women who initiate divorce at 85% the average, its no surprise that misandry is a pop culture phenomena. Whether it was an accident or not it all works together, and men are the losers on the deal no matter what. ITs a big scam and women are really easy to seduce with this empowerment talk of 'non accountability'.
But I do agree with Warble, standing in front of the ex's house or rather maybe in many cases the guys' very own old house, may not be an objective I would employ. I like everywhere else, parks, bridges and bi-ways,malls,schools if possible, public buildings court houses etc....
We can't fix the past but we can warn others of the dangers and protect ourselves for the future.
,
Dan Lynch
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But I do agree with Warble, standing in front of the ex's house or rather maybe in many cases the guys' very own old house, may not be an objective I would employ. I like everywhere else, parks, bridges and bi-ways,malls,schools if possible, public buildings court houses etc....
I could support the Blackshirts if they renounced their fascism and stopped targeting their ex's and harming their own innocent children by trying to chase out their ex's new husband/domestic partner.
They have the right cause but wrong political ideology and the wrong targets. By hitting the wrong targets and holding to their proclamation of fascism they are only creating innocent victims and alienating other men's groups all over the world.
The targets that I'd like to see them hitting are the homes of the radical feminists, and the politicians that can be identified as supporting male hate legislation. For example, in California Senator Kuehl and Assemblywoman Corbette would be valid political targets for a protest. They are the ones supporting anti-male legislation.
Further, I know of an attorney said that in America men can burn an effigy in front of their home and that it is a protected free speech right. Now that is the kind of activism that I believe would not create innocent victims or qualify as fascism.
Of course the media would hate this activism and they would smear the men. But the would not be able to touch them.
So long as this group supports its fascism and seeks to harm their ex's I cannot in good conscious be supportive. Until then I strongly believe that we need to urge them to denounce their fascist views and change their tactics to target their real enemies.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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So long as this group supports its fascism and seeks to harm their ex's I cannot in good conscious be supportive. Until then I strongly believe that we need to urge them to denounce their fascist views and change their tactics to target their real enemies.
Now that's a far more politically constructive attitude to take towards the Blackshirts than writing them off as no value to the men's movement--the more hostile approach provokes attack. As for myself, I'd urge them to renounce their facist views.
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Now that's a far more politically constructive attitude to take towards the Blackshirts than writing them off as no value to the men's movement--the more hostile approach provokes attack. As for myself, I'd urge them to renounce their facist views.
Yes. I agree that this is a better approach. After all their issues are valid. It's their tactics and fascism that are the problem.
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Friday August 23, @01:48AM EST (#136)
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Like I said Earlier...; "Bug in the soup."
Take out the "bug" (fascism) And I'm sold.
But not untill then.
Thundercloud.
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Its interesting that of all the 'men's groups' out there, these guys are getting the most attention.
Actually no its not it gives great leisure to fembot media to further blanket demonize men's issues.
,
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday August 21, @05:14PM EST (#91)
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"Are you kidding? If members of the men's movement don't know of other men that are alienated by the fascism of the Blackshirts then they are probably hiding in corners and failing to talk to their friends or express their views. Again, we don't need to be giving the news media any reasons to be calling us fascists. That is an extremely stupid thing for men to do."
Sure, lots of men's activists are alienated by the fascism of the Blackshirts, but none of them, as far as I know, are minimally equipped not to be alienated from the men's movement on account of the fascism of the Blackshirts. So you've been talking to your friends and they've been telling you, "Gee Warble, I think all the things you're doing for the men's movement are great, but on account of the Blackshirt's, I'm completely alienated from the men's movement. So long, buddy."? That's very interesting.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday August 21, @05:26PM EST (#92)
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Maybe Warble is right not to give other men credit for deciding the Blackshirts are contemptible. Maybe they can't be expected to figure out the difference between a good men's activist and a bad one--especially educated professionals, gee these people need the most help. That's why we have to condemn the fascism of the Blackshirts.
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The fascist symbol of which Mr. John Abbott speaks is present on:
1. the back of the U.S. Washington Quarter (the eagle is perched on it - 1932 to present).
2. the wall of the House Chamber in the Capitol of the United States in Washington, D.C. (mounted on either side of the flag behind the rostrum).
3. the frieze of the rotunda of the U.S. Capitol
4. the Seal of the State of Colorado
5. the back of the present day Roosevelt dime (with a flame on top - 1945 to present).
6. the back of the old Mercury dime (exactly like it was in the Roman empire - 1916 to 1945). It still circulated widely into the 1960's.
7. the original design of the Great Seal of the United States by Charles Thomson (a resemblance) , and is still alluded to in the left clutching foot of the eagle holding 13 arrows. In the mouth of the eagle are Latin (Roman) words saying, E Puribus Unum, "out of many one."
8. the original U.S. Navy Medal of Honor.
I'm sure there are many other examples, but you get the idea. Where did the original story of the many arrows are stronger than a single one come from? Who knows, about 3,500 years ago a story in the Bible (Ecclesiates 4:12) refers to the concept, by some King named Solomon. In the movie "RAN" by Akira Kurosawa (based on Shakespeare's King Lear), Lord Hidetora shows his sons one arrow can be easily broken, but when three are together, it is much more difficult to break.
When did this symbol become much less popular if not anathema? When it was used by Mussolini in WW2. His association with a guy named Adolph is despised to this day in all freedom loving countries.
Clearly the blackshirts, these wronged, frustrated, & desperate men, are becoming a tragedy, because apparently their tactics will alienate more than they will enlighten the citizenry to their plight. They remind me of a bunch of rebellious men who where fed up with the way their country unjustly treated them. They also used the symbol of fascism to describe their sentiments. The year was 1776. The place, the 13 colonies. The biggest difference between the two groups, then and now, as I see it, is that the symbol of the fascists had not been polluted by Benito M., and his demonic ally Adolph, when those long ago, treasonous, rebel malcontents used it in 1776.
I could say more about all this, but this is a good start. I will close quoting an old Greco-Roman saying, "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, drink deep or taste not the Pythian spring."
Invariably, these things will happen in any movement, let us learn from their mistakes, be wise, and employ tactics that will accomplish the effects we desire. I pray for the well being of the blackshirts and all those they are interacting with. I pray that the blackshirts will follow sound tactics and principals to achieve the effects they are striving for. Truly, these are times that try good men's souls everywhere in the Western world if not the whole world.
Ray
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday August 20, @12:40AM EST (#16)
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For your information:
http://www.blackshirts.info/
I have no contact with this group.
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Let's look at something else, namely, politics, and the prime players of politics, lawyers. You go into a court with a lawyer, and what position do they take?
I'll give it to you in a nut shell: I'm a hundred percent right, and you are a hundred and eighty degrees wrong.
Like it or not the current system is one of judicial activism. Gone are the days of elected politicians taking rock solid positions unless their seat is assured. Trying to get such legislation that is man friendly is a fool's errand at best, because a politician will have to go on record and face re-election with a segment of the constituency pissed off. You've written to politcians. Review the responses. When have you ever seen more words used in saying nothing and/or coming down firmly on both sides of an issue?
Lobbying holds the advantage to those seeking to maintain the status quo. Right now, thats the pheministas. That is their game. Play it at our peril. I guarantee one thing, they aren't about to come to the table except as a delaying tactic made in bad faith, because we have nothing to threaten them with. We have nothing they want. Why should they concede diddly to us? Because they're fair minded and reasonable?
I have some farmland in southern Florida for those who say yes......
No, where we go is the courts, and to do so we must shoot for the moon and stars. We have to remember also that the courts do not address matters of morality or right and wrong, they address questions of law. Though the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, they have nothing to do with each other. Yes, in an ideal world they would walk hand in hand. Idealism is useful in planning reform, but useless as tits on a boar hog when it comes to executing it.
To go into court means you take a position, carry it to the extreme, and aargue that any opposition to it is wrong. The pheminazis realized this long ago. They used it effectively, and won beyond their wildest hopes.
Our legal system is adversarial. To make it shoryt, you go in there with an adversary. An enemy. You treat them as such. Or you don't go in there at all. You aregue, as I have heard it, "I don't own a dog, my dog doesn't bite, and that wasn't my dog.
Judges are a study in seeming contradictions. They want to blaze new law. "Judge Smith's decision in Jones vs. Brown..." is something that gets Judge smith all aroused. He wants it to be read. Quoted. Placed into a book. They also want to compromise, and appear to be reasponable statesment, or 'jurists,' as I believe their word is. Many take great glee in pointing out contradictions, and especially their hands being tied to make bad rulings. Some to be sure make them to perfect the law. Others, I think, like to make elected politicians squirm and force them to take stands.
Our war against pheminism is a multi-front and multi theatre war, and I'll say this right now, any leader of the movement who advocates a single theatre of the war with limited tactics is a ignoramus We have to fight in the courts, to spur change. We have to fight in the legislatures to make it stick. We have to fight PR wars. And we have to use partisans.
Partisans were a group of people made famous in WW Deuce, most especially in France, as members of the "Resistance." They were known for smoking out sympathizers, eliminating military and civilian assets and supporters of the occupation forces, and for making hit and run strikes strategic and tactical targets. They operated covertly, and in cells. Because they were on the winning side, we call them partisans. The Nazis quaintly referred to them as terrorists and thugs.
Come to think of it, a while back there were another bunch of thugs that tarred and feather occupational sympathizers, blew up things, and generally created havoc. Why, way back in 1773, they destroyed a bunch of property when they threw a shipload of tea into Boston Harbor. Bunch of weirdos - Hancock, Madision, Henry, Adams, Washington, Revere - a bunch of terrorists. Maybe someone else has heard of them.
Do we win the war solely with these tactics? No, of course not. Witness the Palestinian idiots over in Israel. But what a fifth column and second front they would be if someone rolled to israel during an infitada. Things that make you go hmmmmm. About the only thing the PLO sympathizers do is deflect any direct questioning about Hamas and the like is first to redefine them as freedom fighters, and point out how much you have to understand their anger....
We need the Blackshirts. Crap, we need them in the US and Canada; but I will tell you this, alienate them, and you lose all control of them forever more. And there is our choice, and I'll be blunt. Use them. Let them channel their anger into doing something, into effecting change. Don't condemn them, condemn intimidation tactics - but don't ever condemn "the intimidation tactics of the Blackshirts." That way, when they need to be reined in, they can be retired and become the Partisans, basking in the glories of the fight for freedom, instead of the Knights of the Ku Klux K;lan, who don't trust the very people they started out to support.
It's our call, and you can call it cold blooded, but absent burnings, rapes, and murders; If they are just standing outside some woman's house who abandoned her family for another woman, and raped the father finacially, and alienated him from hiu children - calling her a dyke through a megaphone is calling a spade a spade. It's plain speaking, and brutal honesty, something desperately needed and in very short supply these days.
We can cut off our arm if we want, and be all self congratulatory about "fighting the fair fight" and being "chivalrous" if we want. But if you do, speak quickly, because the honorless enemy you wasted that futile show of honor on is going to be quick in mowing you down.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Trying to get such legislation that is man friendly is a fool's errand at best, because a politician will have to go on record and face re-election with a segment of the constituency pissed off.
Never took Gonzo for one of the Internet activist whiners that refuses to try and make a difference. There are many activist on this site that will take exception to Gonzo's libel.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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"Never took Gonzo for one of the Internet activist whiners that refuses to try and make a difference. There are many activist on this site that will take exception to Gonzo's libel. "
I've heard a lot of shit come from Politicians mouths and emails to me. Gonzo is probably not referring to your hard work in California, but I think we have to agree that on the whole politicians have betrayed men, otherwise why are we here?
I took it as an objective look at whats happening in relation to Abbott. Abbott is gaining support from all over Australia, they may be the first one's to liberate themselves from the unfairness. It also looks like he's done his homework the entire thing is about money, how am I not surprised.
Im with Frank, Im giving my reserved endorsement of the blackshirts and I will talk about the good things they are doing and why they are justified. Im not going to shoot them down simply because of an interpretation of what fascism is. These guys are raising awareness to a major problem , I say good luck to them.
The courts are more and more forcing us to become militant, not giving us a voice and not addressing our issues with honesty. We should be using the blackshirts as an example of the desperation would should be seeking to avoid.
,
Dan Lynch
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I've heard a lot of shit come from Politicians mouths and emails to me. Gonzo is probably not referring to your hard work in California, but I think we have to agree that on the whole politicians have betrayed men, otherwise why are we here?
Yes they have. Big time. However, we cannot hold ourselves without fault. No men's groups were present to balance the debate. So men are just as responsible as the politicians. We simply didn't show up to counter argue the lies of the feminist. In a democracy that is the fault of the men.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday August 20, @01:45PM EST (#31)
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I don't go to these rallys and the like because nothing ever gets done. The feminutz start screaming about being anti-woman & anti child, and many so-called leaders fall all over themselves giving ground to prove we aren't and then promising that we will get them the next time. Last time I did any of this, it was voted as the result that the women shouldn't have to do anything for insurance and it was all put on the men when it had been both of them were required. But the people we spoke to said that the had been unfairness in the past and it would be studied and discussed what to do. That was a few years ago, and nothing has been done. But this was said to be a victory. Hah. More victorys like that we don't need. If leaders want people to follow they need to go somewhere but all it looks like most are doing is just having us send checks, and telling us to shut up & it will get better. What happened to the Mens Comission? Last I read here it looked like it got hung up by the feminutzis. More politicians stabbing us in the back. I say hurray for the Black Shirts because as least they are doing something.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday August 21, @03:44AM EST (#60)
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Anon,
Like you, I've heard alot said and not much done.
(And getting much done all by yourself is very difficult.)
That said, We have tried again and again to "reason" with our "enemies". They either cannot or WILLnot listen.
So appearantly, "reason" is not enough to motivate them.
My bet is, that the "Blackshirts" ALSO tried "reasoning" at first, yeilding the same results WE are seeing in this country, Not being listened to.
But now that the "blackshirts" are protesting in the way we are seeing presently, how much do you want to bet they are being heard NOW?!?
Our situation in this country and Canada is like this;
You can tell a ROCK to move all you want, you can reason with that ROCK as to WHY you want it to move all you want too. But the fact is..., That ROCK is NOT going to move.
Solution...; you have to move the Rock, by force.
and that is where I think the "Blackshirts" in Austrailia are now.
And that is where WE need to be as well.
Thundercloud.
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"Solution...; you have to move the Rock, by force.
and that is where I think the "Blackshirts" in Austrailia are now.
And that is where WE need to be as well."
I wonder if the lashback from here is really just a response to the 'concervatism' aspects to what fascism is.
They are really making a noise so to bad about that part. The NAZIS also used the swastika which was already widly used and known long before nazi came in. It represents the sun and more dynamically the spiritual envelopement of man (the sun is within). Its certainly a masculine trait. But don't forget 'socialism' is the other half of nazism.
Seriously we should get to know them so we can learn how to deal with them. We should be exploiting their drastic measures . And I dissagree these guys arent really like a "shot across the bow" they are more like a little heartburn at best. But none of those 'isms' are really all that great are they.
.
Dan Lynch
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Seriously we should get to know them so we can learn how to deal with them. We should be exploiting their drastic measures .
Agreed. The thing that I've learned from the Blackshirts is that if it is protected free speech in America, I'd like to make an effigy of our friendly radical feminist McKinnon and burn it in front of the home of CA's radical feminist Senator Kuehl. I can see it now. Dressed up in full army fatigues and paint-ball mask. We could call ourselves The Bigballs, BigBadBalls, MenWithBalls, or IHaveGotBalls.
YEA! Now that idea I really like! We would be targeting the real enemies of the men's movement (not innocent ex’s), we'd be sending out the message that men still have balls, and we'd get the feminists all pissed. It would be a strike against the real oppressors and bigots of men. It would be guaranteed news coverage.
And whom do we have to thank for the idea? The Blackshirts.
HERE COME THE BigBadBalls! BE AFRAID! BE VERY AFRAID!
I luv it.
All those in favor say aye....
Warb says aye.
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Friday August 23, @01:58AM EST (#137)
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Well, I'm not crazy about the refrence to testicals...,
But sure, why not?
Aye.
Thundercloud.
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They have a pretty hard time showing up when their finances and lives are completely destroyed. We need first do no further harm. Blaming the male victim is the modus operandi of the feminists, and they are doing all to good a job, let us not be duped into engaging in that and overlook the more obvious need.
We need to help the victims (battered men).
Once I was given a dog about two years old that was abused. It had the scares on its rear legs where it had been tied up. Why? What the heck did the nutcase who did that think she/he was doing? I got the dog from one of those rescue places. It nipped at me when I reached for it(didn't trust me, anyone or anything). The dog was scarred for life (physically and emotionally), but I never had a more loyal friend or saw a creature more devoted and expecting of my consideration (kindness, food, affection).
Battered men today are in a very similar circumstance to that of that little dog. WE MUST FIRST DO NO FURTHER HARM TO THE BATTERED MAN BEFORE WE CAN HELP HIM, because he has been treated worst than a dog by the sadistic feminazi's and their unjust toady politicians.
Ray
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They have a pretty hard time showing up when their finances and lives are completely destroyed. We need first do no further harm. Blaming the male victim is the modus operandi of the feminists...
There is an air of truth to this statement. I suspect that the Blackshirts are simply misdirected and that given the proper leadership they could make a significant difference. They have the right idea but the wrong target and the wrong ideology.
I've fired off a letter making a couple of suggestions - based on ideas generated on this forum - about how to be more politically effective. Perhaps they will be open minded enough to correct their mistakes and move forward in their activism.
All they really need to do is be apolitical and target the real enemy who are the radical feminists and the politicians that support them.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Friday August 23, @02:05AM EST (#138)
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((("all they really need to do is be apolitical and target the real enemy who are the radical feminists and the politicians that support them.")))
Yes, exactly.
After all who controlls the "Puppet show", the PUPPETS or the PUPPETEERS?
Thundercloud.
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Let us say that there are people who open their homes, or find sympathetic people to open homes to men and their children. If, for instance, such people were to shelter them, and marshal private resources for such men, however small the number, to ferret out the necessary information to prove superior fitness in court for custody, are they ineffective or doing nothing?
Let us say, just as a for instance, of course; that some employers, managers, businessmen and the like make gentleman's agreements to give a hand up, or a little cash work to men who are groaning under unbearable child support. Let us say that these men keep track of troublemaking manipulative women and insure that they get a bad work record, or lose jobs at inopportune times, or other things that make it difficult for these women to further manipulate their ex's.
Let's say the occasional ride in a van is given, so these men can get some breathing room, that sympathetic people in county offices scan ex-parte applications and circulate the info so that men aren't unfairly ambushed; Hypothetically, what if men who had warrants for child support issued, and someone were to get wind of it through these folks, and them holed up for a few days while the hat was passed? Or the hat got passed in advance, so that some men might successfully challenge for child support, and evidence through private detectives to bolsster their cases were collected, even from setting these women up while turning tricks, making drug buys, and the like?
What if a woman were in the habit of driving drunk after partying in a bar at night while her kids were home alone, and what if some civic minded citizen behind this woman weaving on the road were toi report her, and also notify the children's father so he could retrieve them and get emergency custody orders?
Is 3 - 5 men helped per year too small and ineffective? What if a man were to place a marble in a jar for every man helped that way, and have collected - oh, just for grins lets go with a random number like 23 - over a six year period? Is that too little? What if a little less than a dozen men or so had similar numbers?
What if that man had been refused testifying on behalf of friends, got denied permits to demonstrate, had been harassed from trying to establish a men's shelter by parochial hillbillies who were in denial and wrought with the angst of one-sided chivalry? What if he had been denied permission to distribute flyers at fairs because the subject matter was politically incorrect, and had a stack of letters, most of the form variety, carefully crafted with the same political weaselspeak? What if prior to this he had worked for five years or more, and had never been able to put a single marble into his little glass jar?
Woul;d you blame that man if by doing what society frowned on as wrong he achieved right? Can you condemn such a man when he occasionally goes over and has dinner with a man who has his children, and doesn't live a life of despair because he played by these "rules" that were rigged against him? Children are only children for so long. If the victory doen't come for twenty years or so, how do these men get that time back? Or is it better they wait and become a statistic?
Such a hypothetical man might very well observe that by his empiric observation and experience, no success was achieved until he faced the fact that the game was rigged. Such a man might say that the epiphany came when he realized that all the idealism in the world, all the conviction of the ways things out to be bore no relation to how they were at that time.
Such an imaginary man might even be frustrated that the only measure of his success was local, that it was only one saved here, one helped there. Such a man might be even curse that he has to be on the sly, wondering if the next guy that asks for help might be some turncoat looking to set him up, that he might have to turn away the guy or two here and there because if they were some dupe of the pheminista power structure, he'd do no more good. This hypothetical man might even wonder now and again what kind of difference he made, whether he really was doing a bad thing.
At least until he counted his marbles. At least until someone called him and said, "Hey, Hypothetical man, guess what my kid did today?"
The imaginary man might wonder if he does any good, when corrupt and politically correct judges refuse to apply the same draconian measures to collect delinquent dead-beat mom support. He might grind his teeth as he watches men walk out of the county welfare office empty handed because he had the wrong plumbing. Imagione his rage when he looks at the Child Supoport division and watches females get free help to hound their ex-husbands when man after man is turned away and told to get a private attorney. Think of how frustrated he might be when attorney after attorney turns men down saying, "I have to practice law in these courts" so he has to go a county or two or sometimes three away.
But the ficticious man does count to 23. Some of those marbles represent more than one child, too.
I sure wouldn't ask this hypothetical man to stop what he is doing. If I was fighting the battle on a different front, I sure wouldn't tell him he's hurting the cause, or accomplishing nothing, or anything like that. Even were I to have an inside track, in another state that doesn't apply to his because the rules are different, and had a lot more marbles to my name, I might look at that as yet another way to fight the good fight.
I might consider for myself as well that while I fight for the future, someone gets results in the here-and-now, results that aren't numbers, but real men, in real situations, that have managed to overcome real bigotry and injustice, and who will never look back wondering what things might have been like IF ONLY they had been a part of their kids lives.
I might think that another man helped is another soldier in the cause who comes in not as a raw recruit but as someone who has been in the trenches and is a seasoned veteran
I might consider that all politics are local, and even though the radius of influence small, if even every tenth county had such a hypothetical man, the stats might be radically different.
In any event, I wouldn't call such a hypothetical man a whiner that doesn't make a difference, because there are about twenty three men, and about three dozen or so children who might disagree with me.
But that's just me. And if you ask that fictional man, he'd probably just start saying, "1, 2, 3, 4..." and keep counting.
You think about it.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday August 20, @05:20PM EST (#42)
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I'm not trying to get anything started, here, but
I'm with Ragtime. I mat not always agree with you either, But for a guy with the name GONZO KID, you can be VERY insightful.
Thundercloud.
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We need the Blackshirts. Crap, we need them in the US and Canada; but I will tell you this, alienate them, and you lose all control of them forever more. And there is our choice, and I'll be blunt. Use them. Let them channel their anger into doing something, into effecting change.
Gonzo,
I've reread this post and I must say that I completely agree with this statement 100%. Somehow, I read this to say something quite different earlier.
We need to be persuasive with the Blackshirts and try to win them over. Alienating them is not a viable solution or the direction to go.
Their activism can be of great value to the men's movement. All we need is for them to avoid the image of supporting fascism and to hit the right targets like the radical feminist and anti-male politicians.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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We can cut off our arm if we want, and be all self congratulatory about "fighting the fair fight" and being "chivalrous" if we want. But if you do, speak quickly, because the honorless enemy you wasted that futile show of honor on is going to be quick in mowing you down.
Now this is more like the Gonzo that I've come to know. Well said.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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I do not wish to comment on the "Black Shirts"
as I have no first hand knowledge of the same.
However, it is clear to me that there area very organized efforts to "black list" mens rights advocates who post in this forum, other forums, and news groups. It is clear to me that one of the reasons for the secrecy of the "black shirts" is that they are aware of the very organized efforts of both female and male "feminists" to discredit and "black list" men's rights activists. They, generally, follow the following means:1. They copy and print out notes from forums or news groups made by individual mens rights activists 2. They collect several or many of the same from an individual. 3. They pass the same around to lawyers, male feminists, female feminists, and powerful individuals 4. They collectively determine that these notes and the individuals need to be persecuted and oppressed because of their political opinions with regard to men's rights. 5. They take collective action to do the same by various means including "investigations" into the individual meant to slander the same rather than to investigate, black listing the person in employment, and taking other steps to denigrate and oppress the person individually financially and otherwise. As much of their activity is secretive, underhanded, and slanderous, individuals have little effective defense to the same especially in light of the collective, powerful, and conspiratorial nature of the same. Men's rights organizations should investigate the same and should take steps to expose those individuals and groups which engage in such blatantly evil tactics to further their own unjust means and ends.
C.V. Compton Shaw
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Which is one of the reasons a nom-de-plume gets used by so many of us. And goes through web accounts which you can put profile information on that is *not quite* accurate.
Rest assured, though. Undergrounds do exist.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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They, generally, follow the following means:
1. They copy and print out notes from forums or news groups made by individual mens rights activists
2. They collect several or many of the same from an individual.
3. They pass the same around to lawyers, male feminists, female feminists, and powerful individuals
4. They collectively determine that these notes and the individuals need to be persecuted and oppressed because of their political opinions with regard to men's rights.
5. They take collective action to do the same by various means including "investigations" into the individual meant to slander the same rather than to investigate, black listing the person in employment...
Very good. Now let's start by getting the transcripts from the CA Senate Committee of Judiciary and get the exact quotes from N.O.W. and Senator Kuehl. I can guarantee that there is some very juicy male hate statements in those transcripts.
The date of the hearings were 8/13/2002 and 8/6/2002. The place to order the tapes are here:
Hearing Transcripts
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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The date of the hearings were 8/13/2002 and 8/6/2002. The place to order the tapes are here:
Hearing Transcripts
When calling reference AB2240
The costs for both tapes is $14.00.
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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I do not wish to comment on the "Black Shirts" as I have no first hand knowledge of the same.
You don't have to. They are already being black- listed in their own country by the other more responsible FR's groups. In fact the more that people learn about this group, the faster they get black listed as undesirables.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Mr. Abbot's choice of the word "fascist" is similar to Wendy McElroy's choice of the word "feminist." They would both do well to drop the monikers with which so much evil is rightly associated.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday August 20, @04:12PM EST (#39)
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You are right, Thomas. a "name" or "title" can be very telling, even if it's not "meant" to be.
To give you a personal example, I am not only a men's activist. I pull double duty as an American Indian rights activist, as well.
Many of us involved in Indian rights issues refer to ourselves as "Warriors".
You can guess what goes through most people's minds when they hear that "title"... The stereotypical Hollywood image of a "savage" Indian rideing a horse, swinging a tomahawk, shreiking like an idiot, scalping everyone in sight...
All though the TRUE meaning of "Warrior" is NOTHING even remotely close to that.
But... you KNOW what they say about preseptions.
So, yeah, I agree, when you say that the "Blackshirts" should reconsider their "title" as "facsists."
Also, I too wish that Wendy would consider calling herself something other than a "feminist".
...I have enough aggrevation...
Thundercloud.
PS. No, I have never scalped anyone. Allthough I did give my Dad a REALLY BAD haircut, once.
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I admire their guts and their determination to do something to make a change (to take the bull by the horns). Their P.R. is questionable if not bad. There tactics are bold, confrontational, bordering on illegal, if not illegal.
Ultimately they may wind up more like political kamikazi's, than societal change agents. For the moment, however, they have certainly accomplished something larger than most of us have. They have captured the spotlight in a very significant way. Unfortunately, the control of that, and their destiny is most uncertain.
Depending on how this ends they be more of an obsticle to evercome, than a step toward justice for men.
As for as damagae control for the men's movement I would say that we should not be shy to drive home the point that these unfortunate men were driven to their acts of deperation by the sea of troubles (outragous injustices), that made them employ such unorthodox methods.
Ray
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As for as damagae control for the men's movement I would say that we should not be shy to drive home the point that these unfortunate men were driven to their acts of deperation by the sea of troubles (outragous injustices), that made them employ such unorthodox methods.
Ray
You're dead on. Who would be most likely to feel the brunt of anti-male legislation and be the first to be victimized by the family court? Men of means? The professionals? Wouldn't an uprising by people who have more to lose be more of a surprise? Would a professional class have been more likely to have aligned itself with fascism? Do we condemn the fascism of the Blackshirts because it is fascism, or because it might offend the exquisite sensibilities of the professional classes?
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They have captured the spotlight in a very significant way. Unfortunately, the control of that, and their destiny is most uncertain.
Ray,
They have captured the spotlight by being fascists and using very questionable tactics. That just isn't that hard to do. It is little different than putting on white hoods and terrorizing people. Those that do this even today have very noble sounding ideals and reference the early days of America just as you have Ray. Be careful of that trap. Remember, the devil doth show himself as an angel of light.
We could also get the limelight by burning effigies on the lawns of women in America when they violate visitation orders. Yet nobody would fail to recognize that act as wrong. The result of the Blackshirts efforts is that the world is looking a FR's groups as fascists. I have no desire to be associated with groups that are little more than modern fascists.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Warble writes:
"They have captured the spotlight by being fascists and using very questionable tactics. That just isn't that hard to do. It is little different than putting on white hoods and terrorizing people. Those that do this even today have very noble sounding ideals and reference the early days of America just as you have Ray"
My Reply:
With all due respect let me say, the above quoted words are not my words. I sought to describe the behaviors of the founding fathers and the black shirts, and if the parallels are inescapable you may draw your own conclusions, but not mine. With that being said let me clarify that the noble tactics of the founding fathers practiced in their time are largely anachronistic today. Too many things are different, there's too much water under the bridge for that style of activism to have any meaningful or long term effect today.
Furthermore, as I have already said, I do not condone the behavior of the black shirts, but I will not for one second overlook the extenuating circumstances, that have long battered and abused these hapless guys (BATTERED MAN SYNDROME), and have driven them to employ unsound tactics to call attention to their need for just resolutions to their valid grievances.
Since you quote scripture, then I appeal to you that this one be applied, "The LORD detests differing weights and measures." That is something not stated just once in the Bible (one of the foundations of Western Law), but a number of times. Differing weights and measures are clearly the present day rules of law in Australia and America. The legal scales of justice in family law, domestic violence and other feminist adulterated areas are about as balanced as a two ton Hippo on a tight rope.
I am not certain about Australia, but in America the BATTERED MAN SYNDROME does not exist in a court of law, but Battered Woman Syndrome does. That omission alone clearly proves the courts use of different weights and measure in ministering justice based on gender. There are many other areas in the law in Australia and America where that is true. Those injustices in the law are the extenuating circumstances that must be considered if these men are ever to be fairly dealt with.
I would urge the Blackshirts to cease and desist their present activities, then redouble there efforts through all legal channels to pursue their valid grievances. I urge this #1 out of concern for their well being and the well being of others, and #2 for the long term benefit of men everywhere.
The martyrdom of these men would not count for much by the time the radical feminist empowered government condemns any justification they had into just another demonization of all men (blaming the victims). That derision of all men would quickley be followed, all to willing, by the sound bite denunciations of the politicians' affectionate, news media ,lap dogs (again blaming the victims).
We must never, NEVER live down to the lie, that is the image that the radical feminists paint of men. It gives them too much satisfaction when they succeed, and besides we're really showing them just how powerful we are, when we exercise self-control in the midst of their psychobabbling prevarications.
There are way to many opportunities these days to let no lie they tell go uncorrected to resort to the loser tactics of the blackshirts.
Just My Opinion, Ray
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by Anonymous User on Thursday August 22, @12:01AM EST (#95)
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...Be careful of that trap...
As if Ray needed your guidance. What a self-congratulatory little twerp. When are you going to get it through your thick skull that adults can arrive at their own conclusions?
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Oh my, the big L speech by faggot Ray. Well, since my children will probably grow up thinking I am a coward faggot too I can’t say the big L word has much of an effect. I can say however that reading faggot Ray’s drivel definitely makes one feel like a faggot looser. So I’ll spare myself any future pain a leave the “men” to their own. Hasta luego. Faggot.
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Sorry I offended you, but I do respect your right to have an opinion even though I disagree with it.
Ray
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I can say however that reading faggot Ray’s drivel definitely makes one feel like a faggot looser.
Ray is a good man and makes many good points. He is a valuable asset to the men's movement. I'll take his criticism any day of the week and value it.
Good job! Keep it up Ray!
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Thanks Warble, it's not a problem. I welcome the free flow of ideas even though this one had some name calling in it.
It's actually good experience to have this kind of unpleasant verbal attack here over the internet, where we are shielded by distance and lack of personal contact. It gives one the opportunity to practice his self control, which will be sorely needed, when the rad fems are cursing us and screaming their epithets at us as we oppose their thinking, and their agenda in the political arena. Those are times we will need to be in total control of our beings, our emotions, our feelings, our thoughts as we unflinchingly promote men's issues in that arena.
In closing, just let me make this perfectly clear to all, I will not be deterred in this fight until equal justice is a fact of law for all men, and not just some distant holy writ that politicians prostitute for their special interests and votes. I am no more dedicated to this cause then the amount that I have been grievously treated by the legal system so, calmly and rationally, I can say that I suspect I will be fighting for that goal of equal justice for all men for the rest of my life. So be it.
Best Wishes, Ray
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Those are times we will need to be in total control of our beings, our emotions, our feelings, our thoughts as we unflinchingly promote men's issues in that arena.
Now that day I see coming in short order. We will do well to sharpen our debating skills on this "practice" forum in preparation for the real storm that is about to come. When that storm hits we will need all of our wits about us. There will be no place for emotions.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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With all due respect let me say, the above quoted words are not my words.
My mistake then.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Marshall Mathers knows that out-of-the-closet misogyny - as if fear and hatred of women doesn't exist in newsrooms and boardrooms and other places where language is oh so enforced and clean - is one of the only things that can possibly offend the comfortable editorial class anymore, it works like a charm every time, and so why would he shut up about it now? Mathers and his alter-ego Slim Shady are better journalists than most of us who hide behind that title in order to gossip about other people. Eminem brings us the reality as he and so many of his public have lived it, and doesn't sugarcoat the daily truths of the American underclass.
The rest of the article
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I may burn it down.
Hey, Frank, have you read Edward Abbey's The Monkey Wrench Gang? I loved it. In fact, I've read it twice. Perhaps it should be required reading for all applicants to Men's Issues University. :)
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Not yet. You recommend it? I'm about to get into Maurice Keen's "Chivalry" (Don't start on me, guys!!), but there's room on the list right now.
Frank
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Not yet. You recommend it?
It's not timeless literature, perhaps, but it's a great read, especially if you love the Colorado Plateau like I do.
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Chivalry
Chivalry? What? Chiiivvvvaaallllryyyy? That old outdated thing? :)
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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The blackshirts call themselves fascists. That, I think, is a mistake, just as it's a mistake for Wendy to call herself a feminist. Yes, women are declaring that they feel threatened. Maybe I've missed something, but from what I've seen these men protest legally and hand out information.
My question: What fascist act, in the style of mid-20th century Italian fascists and German Nazis, have they committed?
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The blackshirts call themselves fascists. That, I think, is a mistake, just as it's a mistake for Wendy to call herself a feminist.
My question: What fascist act, in the style of mid-20th century Italian fascists and German Nazis, have they committed?
These are two excellent points. Personally, I find the word "feminism" far more offensive than "facism" or for that matter "communism". The Soviet Union under Stalin was equally if not more fanatical than Nazi Germany, yet I wouldn't denounce someone for calling themselves a communist. I may suggest it's politically unwise if they're trying to win a popularity contest, but I prefer to judge people by their words and ultimate actions rather than by their terminology.
The Blackshirts web-site is angry but it is rational and reasonable. Their actions are legal, and at most approach upon civil disobedience. They aren't killing people or burning down houses. They are taking action and for that they should be admired.
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Personally I would like to see how it all turns out.
.
Dan Lynch
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We talk and basically break a lot of wind through our mouths about marriage. Well, here's my NSHO: Marriage meaans nothing, because it costs nothing. Marriages break up, especially initiated by women, because there is incentive for them to. Until that changes, marriage will be a great big unfunny joke. And we men will be the butts of it.
I kinow some people will drop their jaws, but I actually do believe in marriage. Damn me for a fool though if I can find anywhere, outside of a few isolated statistical aberrations, where it is actually practiced.
Marriage involves two things - commitment, and sacrifice. In the vast and over whelming majority of the cases, it requires work to make it work - it is a concious choice to keep it together. Hence, it is also a concious choice to break it apart. And we have set our laws up to shield women (what a shock) from reaping the consequences of that conscious choice.
Yeah, what about abuse? What about adultery? Well, what about them? They are grounds for a "fault" divorce. I have no quarrel with a fault divorce. Any man who initiates violence - any person, rather - deserves exactly what they get. Expose the one you say you "love" to disease via infidelity, and you are scum - it's inexcusable.
You want a no fault divorce? Get the clothes on your back, your driver's license, social security card, birth certificate, and passport, and leave. If your potential ex lets you take anything else, drop to your knees, and kiss their feet in gratitude. Leave the house, the car, the kids, the dog, the passbook - and go. Period. End of statement.
You want someone else because you don't feel "fulfilled?" Sayonara. Don't let the door hit ya in the ass. Make a stupid choice and get with someone who isn't what you thought they were? Not abusive or anything, but just not the white picket fence, station wagon, and 1.75 kids in Suburbia? Well, let it be a lesson to you.
See ya! Later days! Come visit the kids sometime!
And it goes for goose and gander.
Yeah, we'll have a marriage rate drop. We'll also have a divorce and broken home rate drop. I'm not in favor of protecting those living together, except from violence. We have a mechanism for covering you in a domestic arrangement. It's called marriage. Don't like that? Yer on yer own.
One of the reasons I'm also not in favor of covering child support and custody for unweds. Mommy and daddy is the first best solution. Everything else is second best. Work it out, or let the state step in and take the kids and neither of you twits will have your kids. Or PROVE your ex is an unfit nitwit. Watch that shit disappear of the radar too. Not illegitimate kids. Illegitimate parents.
Absent cause for a fault divorce, if you initiate a divorce, I think the Blackshirts are dead right. One curious thing never addressed - and conspicuous by the abscence in all stories on the Blackshirts - is what they are saying accurate? I see no mention of slander suits. Truth is the ultimate defense against slander. If it is so false, file a slander suit.
Unless you can't, because what they are saying is true. The abscence of such suits begs the question. If someone protested against me because they said I was KKK, I'd be rich in a hot minute. Lessee, Catholic, 1/10th Lenni Lenape - oh yeah. I'm the poster boy, ja, sure, yabetcha. Where's my check?
I made a rule long ago to stand behind my brothers. Anytime I potentially got involved with a woman with kids, I found out why she was single. If she claimed abuse, I asked where he was serving his time. Absent answers, I walked away. A can't think of a one who didn't go put another guy through the wringer - why should I be shocked? They already did it to one guy. Why not a second? I knew what they were - the rattlesnake from the proverb - I didn't give them a chance to bite me.
That's why I gag when I hear "good of the children." Your first "good of the children" concern is working to make it work. If you can't do that - well, your protestations of putting your children first fall on pretty deaf ears here.
Rude and in your face the blackshirts may be. But at a fundamental level, they're right.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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And another thing. There a significant body of research that says that step parents are far more likely to harm their step children than natural parents. If your wife divorces you and takes the kids you have every moral right, no, every moral OBLIGATION, to see to their welfare. And if that means driving a wedge between your ex and her new hubby, then so be it!
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And another thing. There a significant body of research that says that step parents are far more likely to harm their step children than natural parents. If your wife divorces you and takes the kids you have every moral right, no, every moral OBLIGATION, to see to their welfare. And if that means driving a wedge between your ex and her new hubby, then so be it!
Good point Frank. Having had my son victimized by my ex's female babysitters and boyfriends I must agree. The problem is that I didn't have the actual proof until it was too late and he was an adult.
If I had the proof at any time he would have been removed. He was even interviewed by psychologists at eleven and he passed their supposed screening. Little did they know that he'd been coached on how to pass their screening.
As bad as this was, I still believe that there does need to by proof of wrong doing before protesting at the ex's. My personal experience was that the more I protested, the more it caused by son to become secretive and protect his mother. The verbal protests just drove him into secrecy rather than encourage him to expose his mother. The whole damn thing backfired in my face.
Now if that is what the Blackshirts are protesting, and they have the evidence to prove it, then the whole situation turns on a dime. But I'm not hearing that from the Blackshirts in the emails that they have sent or in the news. My suspicion is that they are just driving their children to become more protective of their mother. That is a mistake that I've already made and it cost me dearly.
There is nothing on their website or anywhere else on this topic.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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"There is nothing on their website or anywhere else on this topic."
I think that's a problem for us, especially after all this discussion. Our problem is that we don't really have first-hand knowledge about these folks and their story. All we have is their web site and a few news articles. Save one email that (I think) Dan got, we've not been able to establish any contact with them. So I think we really have to temper our criticism. Each of us may agree or disagree with what we read, but I submit that most of would change our views at least slightly, and possibly in any one of several directions, if we actually were able to attend a meeting and observe their demonstrations.
Like I said before, until I've heard that they've actually caused some real harm, I have to support them. I respect you folks who disagree, but I think you may be reading-in to what they are up to and exactly what their tactics are. I would suggest this: take the word fascist in all its forms out of their rhetoric and reconsider their their approach. That word by itself seems to be an enormous stumbling block.
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If we turn out backs on them and not really listen to their story, we may as well call ourselves feminists.
That is their goal, to divide and conquer the men's movement.
We should set the example of telling the world "Wait a second, I want to hear what these guys have to say." Because you don't just start picketting someone's house for the good of your health.
Maybe they could use our insights or critisizms or observations.
Honestly Fascism? These guys are like a few random blokes playing softball on the weekends trying to take on the NEW YORK YANKEES, and your worried about them taking over the world or something. Sorry, but just a moment for a reality check.
Your worried about competition in the men's movement? We should be networking like mad with anyone who sets up a flag in regards to men's issues. We should have daily contact with John Abbot and find out what our "common goals" are. There is absolutely nothing wrong with publicly announcing that we are not into fascism, but at the same time when asked always add "We have common goals of how men's lives are being destroyed by the system and we are always trying to get a better understanding of whats happening".
If someone took the time to talk to Marc LePine, 14 women and Marc himself would still be alive today!
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Dan Lynch
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Our problem is that we don't really have first-hand knowledge about these folks and their story. All we have is their web site and a few news articles.
Actually I've been emailing them also and trying to carry on a correspondance. However, there is no new information to add. They are not coming up with well reasoned arguments to justify their actions.
Warb
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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"They are not coming up with well reasoned arguments to justify their actions. "
My own situation simply doen't include the kind of situations that most of you have encountered, so I have little experience to speak from. But I have to conclude that their actions are justified on one simple premise: they are devastatingly frustrated and they are firmly convinced that this is the only (or one of the few) legal, non-violent approaches that is left. Perhaps "we" have not gotten there yet. Or perhaps we've just embraced other choices in the fight.
I hear you, Warb, I just think you raise the bar of justification a little too high.
Peace.
Frank
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