|
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I didn't spend a lot of time at this site; I will at another time. But two things I saw concerned me, given my short visit:
1) Dr. Hopper appears to buy into "recovered memory," a VERY controversial theory that has been recently contested in the courts. While recovered memory may be useful in therapy, I have serious doubts about it's veracity as a matter of courtroom law.
2) Dr. Hopper included, apparently as an afterthought, some references of females as abusers of males. He provides only a bibliography and no analysis, though he does recommend a particular book. (Has anyone here read it?) I wonder if this a matter of his beliefs on the subject or is it a matter of PC damage control.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes I have the same concern as you. I also must add that he also speaks of the accuracy of the MS. Magizine survey of rapes and how those that find the research flawed as being not informed. He also disregards the victims perception of the sexual encounter. He also adds to his definition of sexual abuse seeing an adult naked. Does this mean that all children of nudists, and those of us who attended the YMCA as children and saw adults showering have been abused? Child sexual abuse and its effects should be studied. But when I read these studies I am always more confused then when I started.
It seems to me that perception and context seems to play a larger role than is being portrayed in these studies. EXmple:
If child abuse is sex with any person under the age of consent, then how can the age of consent be different from state to state and country to country? Does where you are determine if you are going to be traumatized?
Why is it that if a women has sex with a teenager it is not rape or somehow is not as serious? Is it possible that in fact it isn't as bad because boys haven't been taught to view it as abuse like girls have been taught the perception of sex with men as evil?
If it is true that when teenage boys have sex with men they later suffer from homosexual confusion then it must also be true that when gay teenage boys have sex with women then they must suffer from heterosexual confussion.
Maybe, as has been shown in other cultures and times, humans are pan-sexual, and it is a cultural construct to view sexuality as an attraction to one sex or another?
Is it just possible that research on this matter starts with a pre-concieved concept and then data is found to accomidate that notion.
What if there truly is no such thing as hetero or homosexuality and we are just all sexual?
What if there really isn't a real age of consent and it is more to do with hormones and emotional maturity? I have know people who are in their thirties and still aren't comfortable with the concept of sex.
I think that when it comes to sex, we may not be in an atmophere to really look at it with out knee jerk reactions. It does seem to me that we are currently awash in a femmist construct of sexual abuse.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"What if there truly is no such thing as hetero or homosexuality and we are just all sexual?
What if there really isn't a real age of consent and it is more to do with hormones and emotional maturity? I have know people who are in their thirties and still aren't comfortable with the concept of sex.
I think that when it comes to sex, we may not be in an atmophere to really look at it with out knee jerk reactions. It does seem to me that we are currently awash in a femmist construct of sexual abuse."
Dan Lynch: Martial Arts for the Modern World.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ooops, forgot to put what I wanted to write.
I really liked your comments, I hope that type of objectivety is more wide spread than just among us at men's activism.
Dan Lynch: Martial Arts for the Modern World.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I haven't spent any time at this man's web site but wanted to comment on your observation of his concern with seeing an adult naked. I have seen a number of men in my therapy practice who's lives have been complicated by mothers who would disrobe in front of them as young boys. This was not an innocent removal of clothing. These mothers were seducing the boys. One mom would disrobe in front of a mirror and admire herself while in the same room as the boy. This of course left the boys confused and lacking in boundaries between mom and themselves. Was this abuse? I would surely say so. Did they actually touch the boys? No. This could be contrasted to the mother who inadvertantly left a bathroom door open. Very different experiences.
I have been able to talk to some of the mothers and found that they were basically little girls at the time. Their level of maturity was minimal and they each seemed to have a profound sense of worthlessness that seemed to abate if they could stimulate the boys. I am in no way condoning what they did...just trying to understand it, just as the men are trying to understand it now that they are adults.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
But then the intent is sexual in nature. The concern is not so much that the kid sees a naked adult, but that the adult is attempting to get the child to view them in a sexual way. And that is, of course, very wrong - but it is misleading to make the blanket statement of "seeing an adult naked is sexual abuse" because in the vast majority of occurances it is not.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Monday June 03, @11:10AM EST (#6)
|
|
|
|
|
One aspect of child abuse that almost no one talks about or even seems to be aware of is the tendency for parents to hold their children's desires to have boundaries in utter disregard and contempt.
My sexual involvement with others began when I was in elementary school. Like many children, I played "doctor." One day, she figured out what was going on. A calm, civilized discussion about why children should not disrobe in front of each other for purposes of arousal would have done fine. What I got, instead, was twenty or so minutes of yelling. I was practically catatonic for the rest of the day.
My mother would root through my possessions when I was not around. She would come barging into my bedroom without knocking, even when I was in junior high. One time she wanted to yell at me about something or other, so she came up and banged on my door. I told her I was getting dressed and she demanded, furiously, that I open the door immediately. I was eleven or twelve, and that is NOT an age where one feels comfortable with being seen in one's underwear, especially by a parent. I was too afraid to say no.
At another time, she found a story that a friend at school had printed up and lent me. It was a story about a woman who goes to an adult theater and engages in all kinds of sex acts with the other moviegoers. This was all fascinating to my sixth-grade mind, and it made great "reading material." Damn, that was embarrassing. She even managed to torture me for the name of the person who had printed it out. I understand that she would want to confiscate it, but yelling at me for half an hour straight wasn't the best way to handle the matter. She could have sat me down and said that she understood that I was going through a "phase", but that the activities described in the text were not a realistic description of how responsible adults engaged in sexual activity. No, it was far better, she thought, to rage about and get in my face and yell.
Later, she found out that I had burned a paper towel by holding it over the stove. She went into this long tirade that wound up with us being outside, in the back yard. She said that when people burn things, it means that they have sexual problems. (Let's assume that setting fire to a paper towel can only possibly mean sexual problems, which is a stretch. Hmm. Could it be that her piss-poor handling of the issues mentioned here, and utter disregard for my boundaries, could cause sexual problems? HMMM, I WONDER.)
She demanded to know whether I had been masturbating. Of course I said no. She then informed me that she could hear me doing so every night. She was wearing a shirt that, as she had told me previously, had the Chinese character for peace. World peace is very important to my mother. Isn't that nice?
Yeah, like many of us, I've been jerking it regular since I figured out how to do it, which is so early in my life that I don't even remember my first climax. And she knew it, since when I was very young I was not bashful about it. But at the age of 13, which would have been right around when this happened, I was going through that phase of sexual self-definition, and I needed more than ever to have boundaries. I did NOT need to be mocked. It bothered the hell out of me that she knew, and I was smart enough to realize that she would have no reason to believe that I would ever stop. But that didn't make it any better.
I do not know whether these incidents stemmed from some desire to "get back at" men (as her first husband beat her). I do not know whether any sexual perversion caused her to act in this way, although I suspected it highly at the time, and I still have my doubts. (After reading this, wouldn't you?) I am not hostile toward her, as I recognize that everyone has their malfunctions. But, at the same time, I will NEVER be close to her. Ever. To this day, I am still paranoid. I don't fully enter rooms that she is in because I have this idea that maybe she will look at my crotch area. I talk to her from around corners, from other rooms. I do not go out of my way to spend time with her.
She is nicer to me now. Perhaps she has realized how damaging and evil her ways have been. But... It is unlikely that I will ever really trust her, and if I choose to have children of my own one day, I will not allow her to spend unsupervised time with them. Especially if I sire any male offspring, because as much as she tries to hide it from me, she is a closet man-hater. It sucks that I'll have to bring all this to the attention of whoever I might marry, but oh well.
Do I think that I have been sexually abused?
No.
I think that I have been mentally and emotionally abused. Not that it makes it okay. I believe that mental and emotional abuse are on the same level as sexual and physical abuse. They are all damaging, and they are all totally unnecessary. I wish that we did not have to put up with this in society.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, AU, you have my sympathy.
As for your definition of sexual abuse, I would disagree with you in that it seems that the abuse left you with symptoms that are distinctly sexual in nature.
I also think that, regardless of whether or not your case is genuinely sexual abuse, the definition currently understood for sexual abuse must be updated to include situations like this. My (naive) basis for this assertion is that the whole motivation for the campaign for stronger enforcement of rape is the lasting emotional effects of the assault. Clearly, you have lasting emotional effects that may well rival those experienced by rape victims. Your treatment at the hands of your mother may be precisely the opposite pole from incest, and definitely just as destructive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I agree. What about emotional sexual abuse as opposed to physical sexual abuse.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The challenge is that there will never be a change unless a measurable group of victims emerges. I doubt our AU here wants to step forward, as he's probably devised a way to cope with the damage and he's quite functional, and quite possibly happy with his life overall. I have my own "closet full of insecurities" as Binkley from Bloom County used to call them, and I can identify with that. In fact, I recently went to a psychologist for weight loss hypnosis therapy and when he wanted to open that closet, I was very guarded. "Let's open it carefully and see that nothing falls out, and when you've satisifed your curiousity, then let's close it and lock it tightly" I said.
The bottom line is this: unless and until a large enough group emerges with a common complaint, nothing will change. The mental health community will not recognize this as a problem unless they can study it and satisfy themselves that it's not just one person with a complaint.
I would encourage you to step forward, AU, even if you contact Hopper or some other pshrink in confidence. You might get some guidance for yourself, and you might help the next guy in line, too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frank - I think the mental health community is aware of the problem. The media is less aware. The problem I see is that traditional therapy is simply not male friendly, having been built for women. Men may see the need for change but most don't see a masculine change agent available and receptive to their preferences.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"traditional therapy is simply not male friendly..."
That's exactly my point. Therapy for men in this group will not emerge until it becomes visible. Hopper has "announced" himself as an expert on males as victims of sexual abuse. He SHOULD be open and professional enough to recognize the problem and be willing to collaborate with someone who's willing to research it, even if he is not.
The change agent won't emerge until the demand is identified. I'm just suggesting that we help this identification process along a little bit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frank said: "The change agent won't emerge until the demand is identified. I'm just suggesting that we help this identification process along a little bit."
I agree. The sad thing is that there are male friendly techniques out there that are very effective. EMDR is one of those. Quick and to the point it is able to neutralize the old "locked in the closet" stuff so you can live an open life without worrying over locking closet doors. Puts you in the present tense. The men I work with find it effective and helpful. Problem is that men don't know about it and fear that therapy is simply having to sit and talk about the past. Yccchhh!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tom, can you tell us more about EMDR or direct us to a website?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EMDR.com :>)
It's a great technique that men love because you don't have to sit and talk about it. My clients say it's like waving goodbye to old pain. It is much less time intensive than traditional therapy. My guess is that it cuts the time by at least 50%.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Tuesday June 04, @03:29PM EST (#13)
|
|
|
|
|
I have devised coping methods that enable me to live a happy life. The most significant was the discovery that the events I detailed above comprise probably less than a micro-percent of my total experiences, and that I should not allow them to influence me as if they formed 95% of my experiences. This was augmented when I discovered through self-help texts that the significance we assign to things is 100% mental (i.e. we create it ourselves), and that it can be changed. What finally unlocked it all was that occurred to me to actually sit down and go over what had happened with myself, so that I could figure out how it might be affecting me.
And you are right about another thing. I will not step forward publically. It might be different if there was a compelling reason (i.e. she was still disrespecting my boundaries, or I had reason to believe she was disrespecting someone else's), but I do not *hate* her to the point that I'm willing to disrupt and scandalize the extended family and probably hundreds of people beyond that. I suspect she would probably suffer a psychotic break if I were to confront her with everything she'd done to me, all at once.
I have sent a request to the mensactivism.org personnel asking that my experiences be posted as a separate story - an editorial, if you will - because I do not believe that what happened to me is rare. I believe that it is very healthy for me to talk about this, and if anyone else to whom this has happened might chance to see what I've written, perhaps it will help them as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Though it isn't exactly the best site on the subject.
I wonder if they consider spanking after pre-adolescense as abuse. The idea hit me as beyond appalling but didn't seem to bother others nearly as much. Though it amazed me how a mother can't understand asking her 14-year-old to strip for punishment isn't in some form sexually abusive. Yuck.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Wednesday June 05, @04:05AM EST (#16)
|
|
|
|
|
Any parent who does that is straight pervy.
|
|
|
|
|
[an error occurred while processing this directive]
|
