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Aside from the bizzarro nature of the case, I am not sure how this pertains to men's activism per se.
I wonder if Ann Rule is going to tackle this one in book form.
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Aside from the bizzarro nature of the case, I am not sure how this pertains to men's activism per se.
Attacks on male genitals by women have been encouraged via "funny" movie moments, Lorena Bobbitt, etc. The severe damage or potential fatality of injuring a man that way is almost an unknown. People think, "well, he'll hurt for a while."
Stories like this expose the facts of what really can happen to men whose genitals are attacked, and point out that it's really not something about which we should be laughing.
It's not taken seriously. Hurt men are "funny." This is why it is a men's issue.
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This was a male, who had himself castrated, who then castrated two of "her" husbands - one consentually and the other forcibly. I don't see it as an attack on male genitals by a woman. Sorry, I just don't.
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This was a male, who had himself castrated, who then castrated two of "her" husbands - one consentually and the other forcibly. I don't see it as an attack on male genitals by a woman. Sorry, I just don't.
That simply means you don't consider a former man to be a woman. And regardless of which gender committed the act, it doesn't make it right, good, or not a men's issue.
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @07:32AM EST (#6)
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Well I agree with the fact that anything offensive to female anatomy is considered highly offensive and highly illegal in just about every form. If women had such anatomy it would be illegal to even insinuate hostility toward them. But men have no such special protection and the media glorifies attacks on men's reproductive organs as - funny, entertaining, just, or as a means of solving a dispute.
This case - however, I'm sure it was not the actual "pain" that caused death. It was probably do to bleeding, or some other cause that caused a vital bodily function to break down (heart attack, stroke...)
I agree that this is not directly a "men's issue" - this is a highly bizarre sexual practice and only indirectly relevant here.
CJ
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"Well I agree with the fact that anything offensive to female anatomy is considered highly offensive and highly illegal in just about every form. If women had such anatomy it would be illegal to even insinuate hostility toward them. But men have no such special protection and the media glorifies attacks on men's reproductive organs as - funny, entertaining, just, or as a means of solving a dispute."
I've never understood why female circumcision is vilified in our culture but the routine circumcision of newborn boys is accepted. I witnessed the circumcision of my older nephew and was appalled. I never had any sons (other than my stepsons) but would never have one circumcised if I did. My stepsons aren't.
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"I've never understood why female circumcision is vilified in our culture but the routine circumcision of newborn boys is accepted."
Because there are 3 kinds of female circumcision:
1. removal of the clitoral hood, highly akin to male circumcision.
2. removal of clitoris. more prone to infection, more tramatic implications. From my sources, last one done in the US in the 50's to a five-year-old.
3. complete removal outer labia, inner labia, clitoris, etc. sewn together so everything, including vaginal openning, is covered, with a small hole for urination. Re-cut upon marriage.
This is the one that is most vilified for obvious reasons. Going into shock from pain kills many women [this is done at puberty] - shock which I'd imagine can ALSO kill a man during castration.
Infection kills at a higher rate, since they are usually done in filthy conditions by an untrained family member. However, this is also confused with the other two, which are not nearly as traumatic or infection prone.
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Yes I'm glad somebody pointed this out.
Most people do not understand the concept of "female circumcision" and indeed, many wish it to be referred to as "female genital mutilation" which is more accurate.
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @02:34PM EST (#26)
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Gential Mutilation is encouraged when it is against men. not a surprise. men are dirt to most people
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @02:54PM EST (#28)
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Well, outside of the all the clamor here, it is true that media outlets use attacks on male genitals as a joyous means of entertainment.
My daughter watches Disney Channel all the time. I can tell you this, it is not uncommon for a male in a sporting event involving females to get hit in the crotch - usually it is some guy that was depicted as deserving it by being typecast as a jerk. It happens all the time.
The message is obvious, and don't think that young girls don't get the message.
The young boys in most of Disney's programming who actually do get shown in a positive light are not manly boys, but effeminate boys that are depicted as somewhat less capable than their girl counterparts, or as boorish brutes.
Disney channel is anti-male.
And of course - I can't get my daughters attention away from it....
Go figure
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I think most people are aware of female mutilation, if they are not then there are a multitude of sites that will inform people of the horror involved. But very few people are aware of the horror and problems involved with male mutilation. There are several well documented medical sites that explain this accepted mutilation of boys and men in our country. A few facts for anyone interested. approx. one half of the nerve endings in the penis are removed during circumcision, There is a 1:1000 or so chance that the penis can be have severe trama that can result in amputation or even death in some cases. These are just a few things for a procedure thats only purpose is religious. (these sites also have research that de-bunks the popular myth that circumcision reduces penial cancer) If the ONLY reason to have MALE circumcision is religious reasons why not allow female circumcision for the same reasons? If female circumcision is considered unnecessary and illegal in our country(btw the medical community has basically stated that male circumcision is unnessary as well) then shouldn't male circumcision be illegal as well?
The only answer I get from feminist when I confront them with the facts about male mutilation are vague responses such as "Well, it is just different" but no indication of how it is. If we made female mutilation legal and a medical procedure we could drastically reduce the deaths but that is not the point of the topic is it?
Tony H
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I consider this one of the most basic men's issues in the US. Just to give everyone an image of what it is like for the child here is what the boys are strapped into during the procedure. Its circ-restraint. http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/post1.htm
It makes me want to cry. :(
Tony H
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My sister and brother-in-law circumcised their sons because they didn't want the boys to be "different from their father." I hope more couples choose not to submit their kids to this practice. It really is terrible to watch. Poor babies.
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it doesn't need to be a woman harming a man to be a men's issue. i think the topic raised her is that genital wounding with respect to men isn't considered very wrong. in fact, it's often considered humourous.
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How about the sexual assault of a man? Don't we care about this kind of thing and think it deserves more attention? Do you think that a man who mutilated the gentitals of a woman would get 11 years in prison for his crime?
Just some food for thought.
Scott
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Personally I think this individual needs to be put away for more than 11 years, and in a mental hospital rather than a prison. There is something seriously wrong with a person who castrates himself, then goes around castrating his/her husbands. I don't understand at all why the first husband allowed it to be done on himself. I hope they get this person some serious professional help.
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @09:09AM EST (#9)
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I think sexual violence against men is a particularly relevant topic anyway. Irrespective of this particular case's relevance, the incidences of female on male sexual violence are reported frequently in the press and often in a light hearted way. When reported in a female interest media (e.g. MSN Women) the implication is frequently one of comeuppance and justifiable revenge.
Only today I have penned a letter to Nestle about a new UK advert for Little Rolos (candy), aimed at kids, which features animated Barbie/Ken types talking about who gets the last Rolo. The issue is solved as the female characters drive off in their car leaving the male figure slumping to the ground holding his testicles.
This is sexual violence, portrayed as humour and acceptable only one when carried out by females. The acid test of these things is reversing the genders and then testing for acceptability. Would you ever see a woman slumping to the ground holding her genitalia in an advert for candy aimed at kids. I think you know the answer.
This bias is sickening. I do not wish to see role reversal in the adverts -simply to see it stamped out. While I'm a little off-topic with this, the greater point is that sexual violence against men's genitals is commercially acceptable. There is a good article covering this in detail (and why women cheer on shows like Oprah every time Lorena Bobbit is mentioned) here.
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Only today I have penned a letter to Nestle about a new UK advert for Little Rolos (candy), aimed at kids, which features animated Barbie/Ken types talking about who gets the last Rolo. The issue is solved as the female characters drive off in their car leaving the male figure slumping to the ground holding his testicles.
Nestle appears to be developing a history of anti-male advertising. The most recent U.S. example I can think of were the Nestle "Treasures" commercials a few years back, which featured a smart-ass smirking woman in a chair telling jokes about men and violence against men.
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @11:00AM EST (#17)
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disgusting! I'm not buying any of there products again.
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____ "and why women cheer on shows like Oprah every time Lorena Bobbit is mentioned"
Is this for real? I've never been around any woman who thinks what Lorena Bobbit did was "funny" or humourous or justified in any way. It was a horrendous crime, brutal and violent. The vast majority of people recongnize that.
The only "humor" I've heard about the Bobbit case is by men such as Jay Leno etc. But it is not really "humor" but a rather uncomfortable attempt to lighten the mental load on such a henious crime. Gallows humor I think it's called.
I read something once about this type of humor as a coping mechanism. I'll try to find it. Basically the theory was that such gallows humor is a release mechanism people use to try to make some rational sense out of irrational acts or random situations... another example is the Darwin Awards type humor which attempts to make fun of people injured or killed doing stupid things. I don't think people really have no sympathy for people who suffer like this... rather it is a coping mechanism for trying to place ourselves outside of the possibility of being in such a horrible situation.
Another example is jokes about tornados and people lving in trailors. We try to "control" our fears of the random destruction of nature by making jokes that place us outside the situation because we live in houses. It does not mean most people are callous to suffereing caused by tornados. We make jokes to cope.
Humans are weird like that.
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Is this for real? I've never been around any woman who thinks what Lorena Bobbit did was "funny" or humourous or justified in any way.
Do you not recall the throngs of women outside Bobbit's hearings making scissor motions with their fingers in support for her? He was presumed to be guilty of abuse even before he went to trial, and she was presumed to have acted in "self defense."
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @10:37AM EST (#13)
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Is this for real? I've never been around any woman who thinks what Lorena Bobbit did was "funny" or humourous or justified in any way
Evidently, the The National Feminist Association of Ecuador agreed with her when they issued a warning that if Lorena Bobbitt was found guilty of dismembering her husband, the organization would similarly dismember one hundred American men in revenge.
Or what about Katie Couric of the Today show asking a jilted bride "Have you considered castration as an option?" on prime time TV?
Or what about my female colleague who purchased garden shears last week at lunch-time and in response to every enquiry as to why they were lying on her desk, replied "Just to make all the guys in the place nervous". Until I told her that I thought the joke was wearing thin and that some people might see her comments as an HR issue.
That certainly subdued her.
But while I can't prove the female to male castration "joke" mentality to you without resorting to personal observations of it in practice, and since you say you don't know anyone who finds it funny, I'll leave it at that. However, my personal experience is that it's alive, women frequently allude to it, and it's de-rigeur in certain female-centric sitcoms in the UK to mention it.
As far as sexual violence against males being acceptably "funny", I'm happy to supply you with ample video evidence of it in practice in UK adverts and sitcoms. (PAL to NTSC conversion issues notwithstanding).
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I remember a television movie coming out during the trial about "a woman who just couldn't take it anymore." showed pictures of her being 'forced' onto a bed (not too roughly, but for you to get the idea she wasn't enjoying it) the music deepens, she holds a butcher knife, looking at it as her last resort...
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___"Do you not recall the throngs of women outside Bobbit's hearings making scissor motions with their fingers in support for her? He was presumed to be guilty of abuse even before he went to trial, and she was presumed to have acted in "self defense."
No I don't remember this. If true it still does not mean the the majority of women "laugh at" or think such a violent crime is funny or justified. And as I've said the only people I remember making jokes about the Bobbit case are people like Jay Leno (and other comedians), but again, in a gallows humor sort of way. I'm sure you could find people who think its "funny" what happened to Mr. Bobbit. It is not hard to find a small group of deranged abnormal people. It does not follow that most people are like that.
Even among the minority of people who would support revenge of some sort, most would not advocate such a horrible mutilation and torture of another human being.
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"Is this for real? I've never been around any woman who thinks what Lorena Bobbit did was "funny" or humourous or justified in any way. It was a horrendous crime, brutal and violent. The vast majority of people recongnize that.
"The only "humor" I've heard about the Bobbit case is by men such as Jay Leno etc. But it is not really "humor" but a rather uncomfortable attempt to lighten the mental load on such a henious crime. Gallows humor I think it's called.
"I read something once about this type of humor as a coping mechanism. I'll try to find it. Basically the theory was that such gallows humor is a release mechanism people use to try to make some rational sense out of irrational acts or random situations... another example is the Darwin Awards type humor which attempts to make fun of people injured or killed doing stupid things. I don't think people really have no sympathy for people who suffer like this... rather it is a coping mechanism for trying to place ourselves outside of the possibility of being in such a horrible situation.
"Another example is jokes about tornados and people lving in trailors. We try to "control" our fears of the random destruction of nature by making jokes that place us outside the situation because we live in houses. It does not mean most people are callous to suffereing caused by tornados. We make jokes to cope.
"Humans are weird like that."
If your theory were true, we'd have as many or more jokes about rape as about castration. I cannot think of any jokes on Leno or Letterman about women who have been raped or have been injured in domestic violence. Female circumcision isn't laughed about, but male circumcision is (remember "frontier bris"?)
Please tell me when Disney is going to have a gag where the girl playing on the hockey teams takes a puck in a breast, and falls to the ice doubled over in pain. I'll be sure to tune in.
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How about we start a thread (maybe a subthread on the "media watch" page?) with a list of movies and television shows in which men get hit or kicked in the groin? Is the server large enough?
Item: as I was making rounds in a patient's room, I looked up at the television that she was watching, and saw this funny scene: one man is proudly demonstrating to another the self defense skills he's been working on, and strikes one of those Tae Kwan Do poses, when the other man kicks him in the groin. How clever.
To start the list: Miss Congeniality, when the character played by Julia Roberts assaults a man in the genitals on stage in the Miss United States pageant for her talent routine.
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @11:49AM EST (#20)
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This was prevalent in the former USSR. I used to have a Ukrainian pen pal, and we discussed this subject extensively. One very popular joke went like this.
A man is tossed into the gulag. His cellmate asks, "How long are you in for?"
The man answers, "20 years!"
His cellmate asks, "What for?"
The man answers, "Nothing! Absolutely nothing!"
The cellmate replies, "LIAR! Absolutely nothing gets you 30 years!"
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Tom Campbell brought up a good point. Where are the jokes about women being raped? Are they a regular feature on Oprah? Where are the scenes in movies where the rapes of women are portrayed as jokes.
We all know the answers, and we all know we will get "blah, blah, blah" from those who attempt to justify laughing at the suffering of men.
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @12:35PM EST (#22)
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It appears to me that WSP and maybe Lorianne are not as sensitive to the notion of a man getting his penis clipped as the men are here. I suppose I have to concede that I'm not quite as sensitive to the pain of childbirth as a typical woman would be either.
I have a friend who, as part of his police training had to attend and witness a autopsy. The pathologist, a woman, reached down through the victim's abdomen and into his scrotum from the inside. She grabbed his testicles from the inside and pulled, and as she did, my friend, the witness, heard the snap of the vas deferens as they stretched to breaking. At the moment, he said he felt this immense pain in his stomach. After she helped him up from the floor, she told him that this was about the place when most of the newbies lost it.
Ladies, some men really do feel sympathetic pain when thye see an especially viscious hit to the groin.
Just so you know why we're so damn sensitive about it.
Frank H
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Woah Frank, I'm feeling that from over here.
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Graphic Frank...very graphic....ooooouch..
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I am not insensitive to the pain men feel "down there", in fact I just banned a little girl from my house, a friend of my daughter's, who was kicking the boys in their privates. I just don't think this particular issue is so much a men's issue, as it is a mental health issue.
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @01:22PM EST (#24)
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ah, yes, now that he’s a “tammy,” he’s entitled to the waiver of jurisprudence applicable to his sisters
very tidy!!
the Victim is aggrieved, don’t you see – “I don’t deserve this”
‘twas the SIXTH husband, no less
wonder where the other emasculated bodies are?
women in the west assume ownership of the male body – it’s a holdover from the matriarchies, when blood sacrifice of boys and men was common
some of this assumption is conscious, but most of it is conveniently unconscious
america encourages the injuring of male genitalia as an occult method of intimidating and dominating males
works, too, like a charm!!
how quickly we have forgotten boulder
our own fault and failure to rage when rage was demanded
our newspapers are full of set-up "stories" about clitoridectomy in countries on the other side of the planet, while the screams of eight-day-old boys under the knife across the street go unheard and unheeded
this is not an accident
as for sympathetic reactions – each time your brother is cut, so are you
the grail wound is alive and unwell in north america, and its exposure indeed belongs on this board
The Fool
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the grail wound is alive and unwell in north america, and its exposure indeed belongs on this board
For some fascinating insight into the Grail wound and masculine psychology, read Robert A. Johnson's "He." You can find it at most online bookstores.
:)
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For some fascinating insight into the Grail wound and masculine psychology, read Robert A. Johnson's "He." You can find it at most online bookstores.
AND for an excellently subtle modern re-telling of the Grail wound story, I recommend the film The Fisher King (Robin Williams, Jeff Bridges).
:)
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @03:08PM EST (#30)
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I wanted to add that I think this story really in the context that it happened is not a relevant "men's issue"
Please use a little more discretion as this is more a freak story.
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I am not insensitive to the pain men feel "down there", in fact I just banned a little girl from my house, a friend of my daughter's, who was kicking the boys in their privates. I just don't think this particular issue is so much a men's issue, as it is a mental health issue.
How old was this girl? Seems they're being taught to do this younger and younger...
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She is ten, and not one of my favorite kids in the world. Very much a brat. I'd been looking for an excuse to 86 her.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday March 05, @10:07AM EST (#39)
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> The man answers, "20 years!"
> His cellmate asks, "What for?"
> The man answers, "Nothing! Absolutely nothing!"
> The cellmate replies, "LIAR! Absolutely nothing > gets you 30 years!"
Wrong. In USSR after Stalin, maximum
prison term was 15 years. And even though very
many men accused and put in prison for rape were
innocent, GULAG in post-Stalin USSR was not as bad
as is claimed. Incarceration rate was about
500/100,000 -- four times more then is normal,
but less then in USA now (750/100,000).
Also, only 5-7% of inmates were raped.
In USA, the percentage is 22%.
John Knouten
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