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What I find most interesting is N.O.W.'s on-again off-again endorsement of free speech. Their article gives subtle lip service to the forces of free expression, and evices clear horror at the idea such a book might have been--gasp!---censored.
I wonder if their response would be the--gasp!--same if someone, say, Catherine MacKinnon, successfully banned the swimsuit issue that the article goes on to trash. Or this web site? Or anything they took issue with. Surely not. The disingenous nature of such an organization is so much more revolting because they are utterly unpricipled. Their concern over free speech is far from content-neutral, so their supposed joy over keeping one more book off the banned books list is nothing more than self-righteous posturing.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @04:00PM EST (#2)
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you can also get in touch with michael directly via his website michaelmoore.com at mmflint@aol.com. i've liked alot of the things he's done so far... but this... eesh.
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you can also get in touch with michael directly via his website michaelmoore.com at mmflint@aol.com. i've liked alot of the things he's done so far... but this... eesh.
Thanks, anonymous.
One other thing I noticed on NOW's site is a convenient little media search tool which allows their activists to find an e-mail media all over the U.S.
Wouldn't it be cool if we started using NOW's own tool to promote our own activism.... ? :)
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @04:13PM EST (#6)
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i suppose i should start logging in. i just keep forgetting my password on this site.
-brad.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @08:55PM EST (#23)
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I'm ashamed to say Mr. Moore and I graduated from the same University.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @04:19PM EST (#7)
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Emailing Moore privatly is probably not
useful. Exposing the Rat's misandry as well as
advertizing male positive books would be more
effective.
John Knouten
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @04:12PM EST (#5)
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I must also mention, that he looks like a
rat. Why I choose to be so disrespectful to it
is partially explained here.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @04:19PM EST (#8)
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i doubt name-calling will help others understand the points we're trying to make. it anything, it will create a rift of "us vs them" which inhibits mutual communication.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @04:28PM EST (#9)
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> i doubt name-calling will help others understand
> the points we're trying to make. it anything, it
> will create a rift of "us vs them" which
> inhibits mutual communication.
Please read my
explanation. We have to send
a strong message, that REAL MEN have no obligation
to respect men-haters.
John Knouten
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @04:36PM EST (#12)
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yep. read it. i agree on most points. however, there's a difference between respect and civil conduct. if it's an argument you want, you can get it quite easily. but if you want others to understand, one needs to be strong, clear, and direct. insults, suffice it to say, accomplish little in that realm.
angry? frustrated? of course, these news bits that come our way can be quite insulting. deal with it and then express yourself. who said anything about respect? i'm just suggesting decency.
-brad
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @04:32PM EST (#10)
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>> i doubt name-calling will help others
>> understand the points we're trying to make. it
>> anything, it will create a rift of "us vs
>> them" which inhibits mutual communication.
Dear Other Anonymous,
If communication with them is a moot point, than who cares?
What, we're afraid of not being able to talk to someone who has their head buried in the sand?
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Hey, this is off-topic, but could some of you anonymous folks create some identities for yourselves here on MANN? All the anonymity is getting difficult to keep up with. :) You don't have to give your real name or e-mail address, but it would be nice to be able to identify personalities with nicks.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @04:40PM EST (#13)
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you've got a point there. i admit to being an OS hoar. i'm not automatically logged on depending on which one i'm using at the time. but to appease this request, i'll go find my password and login.
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"If communication with them is a moot point, then who cares? What, we're afraid of not being able to talk to someone who has their head buried in the sand?"
communication is not moot. i don't believe i made or agreed with that point. what i was trying to say was that in order to establish benificial dialogue i think that it would be in our best interests to keep name-calling to a minimum. people are rarely sympatheic or willing to listen to those who insult them.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @05:00PM EST (#15)
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> people are rarely sympatheic or willing to
> listen to those who insult them.
I am sorry. We do not need it's sympathy.
We need many many people to see, that REAL MEN
would stand up for their honour. PUBLICLY bashing
someone, who thinks he/she/it is a respectable
professor/writer is also fun.
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you say you don't need sympathy. perhaps that was a poor choice of words on my part. however we do need people to listen and to take us seriously, yeah?
two points to address here as it's clear we disagree on this issue. you say that "real men" stand up for their honour and, by implication, would insult michael moore. i agree with the statement but not the implication. i don't feel that it follows. because our honour is threatened doesn't mean that we should validate that by displaying unnecessary hostilities. our points can be made powerfully without insults.
second. you validate insults through the enjoyment you get out of it. this sounds like the whole short term / long term gratification argument all over again. i for one would rather have an equal society 10 years down the road at the cost of withholding a few barbs here and now. i think that the investment is well worth the self-restraint.
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you make a valid point when you mention that "people are rarely sympathetic or willing to listen to those who insult them." I think that is the reason we are here talking about men's rights. (granted a passionate and at times very heated discussion.) I know I feel insulted by the false assumptions, accusations and statistical lies that pop-feminism perpetuates daily against men.
Tony H
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If I thought this Michael Moore character's blathering was serious, I would be very, very angery.
However, I just believe he is just another opportunistic b***hole trying to make a quick buck off the chaotic state of gender relations in the western countries this time peddling misandry.
He would make a great tyrant in a black robe!
Screw him! ;-D~~ "spit"
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take a look at his movies roger and me and the big one (PDRTV has some good episodes too). he's not the type to just make a quick buck for the sake of it.
however, in an episode of PDRTV he speaks about men in a very negative way. the rest of his works i love, but this aspect of the guy is just... ick.
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About four years ago, I heard Michael Moore speak on the University of Colorado campus. He struck me as extremely misandrist. I doubt he attacks men just to make money, but I also doubt that he minds getting money for attacking men.
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you'll get no argument from me on that.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday February 27, @07:26PM EST (#21)
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I have also heard Moore speak.
Like so many Baby Boomer men, Moore secretly fears women, and is subservient to them sexually and psychologically. I know his kind only too well. When he was twelve, he couldn’t look the pretty girls in the eye.
He still can’t. See, he starts to SHAKE and SHAKE and SHAKE and he can’t stop dammit dammit Goddammit!!!
It eats at him like a motherfuck, and he compensates for it by whupping like a demon possessed on his brothers, so as to show Mama how STRONG he REALLY is. He especially hates the guys who CAN look the babes in the eye – and hold them there.
Ooooh, he hates them forever!!
Men’s activists, take careful note: bad as King George II and his cronies are, it is the Michael Moore’s of the West who have sold you down the river furthest – the shackles they have marked you with are invisible and double-bound.
Moore's chivalry will be the death of us all.
These are the dudes who attend Take Back the Night!! rallies on campus -- where, of course, a five-minute call to campus police will typically reveal that the last sexual assault took place when Carter was honcho.
He “investigates” and “exposes” whatever serves his psychological agenda, and ignores the rest.
It would be fair to say that he’s only made it halfway to manhood. He can criticize the corrupt paternal, but criticizing the feminine freaks him right on out, and returns him like a matriarchal boomerang to dependant infancy.
His roots are faux-rad leftist, he picked up feminism in the sixties, and he sees himself as a knight crusading to save the world.
From the forces of the Right, of course.
Unfortunately, like millions of his “progressive” Leftist brothers, he hasn’t grown an inch in thirty years. He still thinks Liberalism – if only we’d REALLY embrace it – will get the bulldog fed.
See, these guys are all over our culture. They're the ones who, in the name of equality and justice, have been denying us equality and justice for the past thirty years. They are the administrators and professors on our campuses, the editors in our media, and the managers in our corporations.
What makes these guys so dangerous is that they embody a paradox. I’ve seen Moore dress down – with proper righteous rage – a certain northern California "justice system" official who had been railroading folks through the “justice system” and into the cages with a wink and a shrug. Moore incinerated him on camera.
It was almost as good as sex.
But the same Moore would NEVER stop to notice that ninety-five percent of the railroadees were males. Nor would he care the same could be said about America’s prison and “justice” systems in general.
Guys like Moore arrested psychologically at about seventeen – remember, that age when you KNEW that you knew everything?
Moore and the millions of Western males like him will remain in political and psychological stasis until the day they die, because to really examine one’s beliefs is painful. Unfortunately, it’s the only way to change and grow.
Yo, Michael. You have inherited the appellation of kings. Time for you and your buds to fess up to your intimidation by the feminine. Otherwise – on my oath I swear to you – that DAMNED SHAKING will haunt you down the halls of eternity.
The Flying Gypsy
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i'm wondering, what is the current youth going to grow up into? how will they see gender relations?
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*Smirks* I'm 17, maybe I'll grow out of the opinion mens activism is good.
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"i'm wondering, what is the current youth going to grow up into? how will they see gender relations?"
Oh, that's easy. Young girls will grow up thoroughly believing that they are innately superior to boys. Young boys, on the other hand, will grow up being taught how evil and inferior they are, how they will inevitably rape and molest, and how they are destined to oppress poor and authentically pure females. They will hate themselves or, at least, have no self-respect or sense of worth. They will grow up in a polity which has disenfranchised them, treating them as a problem to be overcome. They will have no recourse to the law whatsoever. Government sanctified "Girl Power!" will no doubt have the same effect on boys as government sanctified "White Power!" would have on those who are not white. Whenever I see an infant boy, I think to myself, "That poor infant is going to grow up in a society that hates and demonizes him." I almost weep when I think about it. Trust between the sexes will consummately vaporize. Women will hate men, and men will hate themselves. Chivalry will lead us to our own slaughter.
We say society progresses. Nah, it just changes its enemy from time to time.
On a side note, today in my psychology class my professor stated that divorce has more negative consquences for women. She stated that they are forced to into a lower socioeconomic "class" because of the cost burden of raising her children. I rose my hand and asked how she could conclude that being able to raise one's own children is more of a burden than having your children torn from you, never being able to see them or be a parent to them. I asked her how she could conclude that a woman's yolk is heavier than a man's in a divorce, and how she could place objective value on something as subjective as pain in the first place. The entire class looked at me like I was out of my mind. She skillfully weaseled her way around my question. Oh well, at least now she knows she's not fooling everyone.
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Good for you for standing up to your feminist professor, Hobbes. I just hope you're auditing the class :)
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"""On a side note, today in my psychology class my professor stated that divorce has more negative consquences for women. She stated that they are forced to into a lower socioeconomic "class" because of the cost burden of raising her children."""
Why didn't you ask her if women are so negatively impacted by divorce as she states then why are the overwheming number of divorce petitions filed by women? I think the number filed by the wife is around 80% plus! Are all women masochists?
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I applaud you in standing up to feminist rhetoric in class. It is something that is very unpopular and difficult to do since the vast majority of people have the mind set men benefit from every aspect of society. The points you brought up were excellent. Lifestyle is a relative issue and I have yet to see this study they use to support this statement. A few more issues you might have brought up were things like the increased rate of suicide for men after divorce. How fathers have an increased rate of depression after a divorce compared to women.
these are additional male issues that would add weight to your argument. Also as a psychology major myself (I have completed the requirements for the degree but I am finishing up my second major.) I suggest you have a read-made argument for these kind of comments made by instructors. You WILL hear them again and again. Others you will hear are domestic violence statistics that lack any male numbers and just a general lack of male issues being discuessed. I would note that make sure you do not make the comments personal, quote facts and studies. It becomes very difficult for the professors to counter argue your points when you are better prepared than they are.
Tony H
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by Anonymous User on Thursday February 28, @02:48PM EST (#30)
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Let's see Hobbes... It's March and if you're running on the same semester calendar as most colleges, you have about 8-12 weeks of class left, minus spring break, depending on when that's scheduled. If this is an undergrad-level class, you will probably have to submit a paper and maybe have to present it in front of the class before the end of the semester.
I'll bet you can think of an interesting topic to write about, can't you. And your Psych instructor probably won't think to narrow the latitude of the assignment to cut off your forum. You could deliver the talk in such a manner that the coupe d'grace isn't delivered until it's too late for her to stop you. Nightmist could probably help you (NM: I don't want to volunteer you buddy, but if you had a few minutes...)
Boy, you know, I salivate for such an opportunity. I know it risks your grade, so that may be a deterrent. But think of it...
BLAM ! (figuratively)
Right between the eyes. :-)
Frank H
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I'll bet you can think of an interesting topic to write about, can't you.
Do it Glenn sacks style.
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I'll bet you can think of an interesting topic to write about, can't you.
Do it Glenn sacks style.
(Oops, hit the submit button too early.)
I mean, do the whole gender switching thing he did with the "Do Men Have a Choice?" column and the MJ column.
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Thanks for the support, guys. Tony, your advice is well taken.
Frank - Unfortunately, OSU is on a trimester system, so the term is almost over. Consequently, I will not be able to incorporate such a fantastically wonderful plan :( I have, however, decided that whenever the opportunity arises in subsequent classes, I will be certain to write on a topic which pertains to men's issues, such as DV. I am very anxious to see what kind of response I get from the professor. I don't expect to change any minds, but if I can dispel a few myths, and plant a few seeds of truth somewhere, I will be happy.
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Terribly sadly, I also have no classes this semester that require yakking about mens' rights. Which is real sad, had two or three good opportunities in English - save arguing [even before I was aware of mens' rights] that Marilyn French is a nut.
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"Are all women masochists?"
Yes. That's why you see so many of us with high-heeled shoes, waxed eyebrows, and underwire bras.
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by Anonymous User on Monday March 04, @11:32PM EST (#43)
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OSU- that wouldn't happen to be oregon state univeristy would it? I am in Portland and attending PSU.
On another note I have found that I need to be better informed and educated on feminist theory to rebuttal the issues they bring up. I am currently in a heated discussion with my film and media intructor about a paper I am doing. (she fails to see any representation of men being negative.) Just be firm and vocal but make sure you look at the facts they will use and know more than they do. (ie. what studies they are quoting, the problems with them (confounds for us psych/soc majors) and better studies.
As a final note do NOT get sucked in to the feminist paradigm that society is purly patriarchal. You can never win the argument if they see men having all the power. Any issue becomes a conspriasy of men against women if you let the arguement go down this path.
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let me know if you have ANY class that deals with mens rights or issues honestly. It would shock me. I do NOT consider rape, Domestic violence, or assualt mens issues in the format they present it in every class I have been in. Men are always seen as the purpetrators and never or rarely the victims (and ALWAYS less of a victim than women or anyone else)
I thank you for taking an intrerest in men's issues. Few women actually take the time to listen to men's issues much less be activly involved.
Tony H
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how're they going to help lower it? Take lower paying jobs if there is a female applying as well?
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by Anonymous User on Friday March 01, @02:10PM EST (#36)
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Aren't you all being a little rough on a guy who simple wrote what appears to be an autobiography entitled, "Stupid White Men"?
:-D
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by Anonymous User on Saturday March 02, @04:05PM EST (#37)
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Has anyone even read the chapter, or God forbid, the entire book before commenting on it, or are you just assumming by the title of the chapter mentioned/ NOW's endorsement that it is bad?
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by Anonymous User on Saturday March 02, @04:25PM EST (#38)
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no assumptions here
i have heard moore speak -- he takes every opportunity to denigrate males in their entirety, especially white males
thus, he hates himself
that's dandy, mikey -- but don't include my brothers and i in your racism and universal loathing of masculinity
and if ya wanna make a pile of money off the flesh of my brothers, know i'll be in your shit without cease
big sister's fooltool -- they're laughing behind your back
n.o.w. loves ya, mikey, but know what?
the babes still don't, and never will
King George II
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by Anonymous User on Saturday March 02, @05:02PM EST (#39)
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I have read the book and heard him speak recently (last week). And if you would read the book before commenting and/or actually listen when he speaks he does not "take[] every opportunity to denigrate males in their entirety, especially white males."
His book does not refer to all White Males, but refers to "Stupid White Men" A term of art he uses to describe the CEO's, poliicians, etc. that have led our country to the place where we are now. Where, as he points out, we have millions wihout health care, millions of funcuanal illiterates, and where companies are laying off people and huge numbers, while the people running the show continue to get richer. And guess what a lot of these people that are sick, illeterate, and poor are alos men, and white men at that.
So why he title "Supid White Men"? Beause most of the people that are in charge of our government and corporations are just that.
P.S. And to show Stupid White Men is a term of art, read the book! You will find examples of people he considers stupid white men who are not white men. I.e. Katherine Harris on page 3.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday March 02, @06:07PM EST (#40)
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have not read the book, and did not claim same
not sufficiently fit physically any longer to read books
were i, however, wouldn't waste time with moore
the title of the book is not "some stupid white men"
it is "stupid white men"
it is grossly disingenuous to argue that moore's carefully chosen title does not seek to capitalize on the public whipping of the Evil White Male that has been the psychosis of america for over thirty years
i can't locate my tape of moore's comments, and thus cannot provide a transcript here, but i replayed it enough to be clear on his message
his hatred of maleness was unambiguous and quite inclusive
what would be the reaction of the book-buying public were i to author a book titled "moron black women," then seek to excuse myself based on the argument that, well, see, i only meant SOME moronic black women?
i don't think it'd hit the n.y.t. best-seller list
nor do i think the title would be interpreted -- as you manage to do -- as a "term of art"
please cease suggesting that i did not hear what i heard, and did not see what i witnessed
three decades of cultural denial are sufficient
titling a book "stupid white men" is a form of agitational propaganda, with overtones of mammon
it's not even especially clever -- goebbels would be disappointed
it is racist and sexist, and would be treated as such in a sane society
Gloria Steinem
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So this book is not misandric? Ok I will admit that I have not read the book but lets look at your point, "P.S. And to show Stupid White Men is a term of art, read the book! You will find examples of people he considers stupid white men who are not white men. I.e. Katherine Harris on page 3. "
So I ask you if the problem with society is that we are stereotyping people based on their skin color, sex, or any other category why does he generalize white MEN as stupid? Granted the majority of CEO's and political leaders are white males (The reasons why are a masculinity issue as well but thats another topic) but why generalize all the problems in our society are a result of WHITE MEN when you yourself admit and the book admits they are not. [my guess would be that women who commit the same sins as men are just trying to compete with men so they have to play by the male rules which are of course inherntly evil.]
He is using the current popular trend of male bashing to sell books. I have read some of his other articles and he does have an interesting view point but there are many holes in his arguments.
The simple fact is he is buying into and supporting the notion that men are the problem with our society and if we just cured men of their maleness then we would all be happy.
My suggestion to you is read the book "Spreading Misandry" and then look at his book title and subject in the a larger social context.
Tony H
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I just signed-up for this site, but I have just got to say that this is outragious! I don't understand how people can be so self-destructive as to degrade their race, sex, and therefore themselves.. it just boggles the mind. Reading the summary on the now.org site just made me sick.. Why can't people see the hypocrasy and insanity of it all?
--
TheWill
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