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Answering the questions around why the male suicide rate is so high and why it is accelerating is quite hard as there can be no money to research the qustions. Yet, those questions MUST be asked and answers found.
I've been looking for a proper topic for our first one-day conference: I think I've found it. Details when they are confirmed.
Greg
the Volksgaren Project: Intelligent Abuse Recovery, http://clix.to/support/, jaxom@amtelecom.net, 519-773-9644
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I read a few of articles on Wendy's link. I found one relating to Roger Sandmark and attorney murders. One of the attorney who represented a ex-wife, who was also the target of an angry ex-husband, said this:
Reporter: "Jimmy McKenzie is now fully recovered from his bullet wounds, but was so traumatized by the attack, he's temporarily refused to take on any new cases. He keeps a gun in his desk drawer, and despite being shot, remains adamant that all clients deserve aggressive representation." "If somebody tried to tell me that I brought it on myself or that, you know, I acted in such a way to justify what he did, I can only say that attorneys have a duty and responsibility to represent their client. We have to look out for their best interest. If we step on somebody's toes, then maybe they should have been stepped on."
So by his words the ends justify the means. I mean if they get angry because they are getting screwed, then they probably deserved it! Unbelievable!
I suppose that if one these attorneys gets a slug through his skull, he probably deserved it too.
If the family court system does not change, I wonder how long it will be before men stop taking their lives and begin to take those of the lawyers, the judges, and family aid workers. After all when the law fails to protect equally, people end seeking their own justice. Whatever the cost.
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McElroy makes the accurate assertion that even discussing the subject of family courts bias and male suicide is taboo. What kind of commonwealth [sic] do we live in, where it is politically incorrect to even acknowledge the male suicide epidemic. It is now legal for women to murder men, and perfectly acceptable for men to kill themselves. Seems we have a "social cleansing" agenda on our hands. I think I have to vomit.
[back from the bathroom] On the other hand, it is very exciting to see that the issue is finally being addressed in the News. I wonder if anyone will even care. BTW, congrats to nightmist for being quoted in the article.
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There is no morality other than the use of force. One way or another it always comes down to the fear of what someone will do to you if you step out of line. That being the case, it's hard not to think that Derrick Miller would have done far better to have gone into the courtroom and taken a couple of lawyers and the judge out with him. Perhaps someone should start a militant father's rights group that will shoot lawyers and bomb their property. We know the 'deadbeat dad' was invented to take the blame off single mothers sponging off welfare. Few of these 'deadbeats' are anything but the product of a process of constructive criminalisation - ie, they are asked to pay such enormous chunks of their salaries (200% in one instance mentioned by McElroy) that it becomes physically impossible for them to keep up with payments. Nobody with a shred of humanity in them could ever think this was right or fair. Government and the legal system don't seem to care if fathers are driven to suicide by this politically expedient madness. If they will not change things because they care, they'll have to be made to change things because they're terrified. It isn't even necessary to kill people or bomb things, but some show of force is necessary. I think that goes for the men's movement in general. As long as those who would harm us feel we are no threat to their wealth, power and status they will do nothing. They live in a bizarre fantasy world where ruining people's lives is nothing but a minor occupational hazzard. They need something to slam them back into reality forever.
Sorry, but all this crap makes me furious with people. Where does anyone think they're going with any of this?
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Well, all I know is that the fathers'/men's rights movement, as it stands today, has failed at being heard and being persuasive -- with a few exceptions. We need to find some way of taking this movement beyond the grassroots level and right into the governments and courts. Our biggest obstacle (apart from feminists themselves) is our inability to organize our different groups into one.
You need your beets -- you recycle, recycle!
Don't eat your beets -- recycle, recycle!
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It seems to me that the problem isn't that government doesn't care about men's issues, but that men don't care about men's issues. If we voiced our opinion (through peaceful means) and voted according to a pro-male agenda, I have little doubt the government would change in our favor.
I think that rather than fantasizing about some sort of violent or intimidating revolt, which plays into the stereotypes about men's and father's rigths activists as a bunch of angry, hateful radicals, we should focus on getting men, each and every one, to wake up to what's going on around them and to start acting in their best interests.
Scott
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we should focus on getting men, each and every one, to wake up to what's going on around them and to start acting in their best interests.
Indeed. It is obvious via the suicides that many men feel completely helpless to defend themselves--or speak up for themselves--when wronged. Those men need to know that they do have support, and they *can* stand up for themselves.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I get activism inspiration from the HBO docu-drama "Boycott," which is about Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Jr., and the Montgomery, Ala. bus boycott which practically launched the civil rights movement.
One particular line in the movie which struck me is when one of the men mentions Rosa's bus incident and points out that--although the men are behind them--it is usually the women who take on civil rights issues.
It is probably the same today. We need to change it so that we're representing ourselves as much as others are speaking out on our behalf.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday January 29, @01:07PM EST (#10)
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Re: two things: Violence, and what the men's movement should do to bring more men into the fold.
As for violence: I stated my hypothetical PERSONAL reaction to an imaginary case in the current family court system. I believe my reaction was realistic given the type of person I am (my beliefs, what gets me angry etc.), and the amount of injustice done. For that, I was condemned by some as advocating violence by all. I did not, and do not ( yet, anyways) advocate violence to change the current system. I do, however understand the anger and despair of some of these men that leads them to either shoot a court worker or shoot themselves. I won't condone, but I won't personally condemn most of these men for their actions. As to the suicides, I regret that we men don't do enough of a job supporting each other emotionally to let each other know that we each matter.
As for recruiting new men to the movement, its obvious the internet helps. Its equally obvious that we need a presence on campus *I might start looking around for local mens groups to see what we can do to help with that*, and most importantly , we need media attention.
I think we should look at creative ways of bringing the attention of the public to the many injustices that occur against men ( heck, ANY one who doesn't toe the Gen-Fem line, male or female) daily. If anyone knows of websites with different types of protest tactics, media tactics, etc. please kindly post a URL here.
And sadly, Uberganger is right in the long run. Unless something is done peacefully in the next ten years or so I am very sure there will be tons of violence in the future of our sex,class, and race split country.
Remo
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday January 29, @03:18PM EST (#20)
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But isn't anyone who cares about men, by definition, a radical? ;)
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People I am not sure if anyone realizes this but this is not a recent epidemic. It is one that has been going on for decades and getting worse. Our jails are overcrowded with men who have lost hope and commit suicide to escape. The men who kill themselves to escape the humilation of a job loss. Men who leave just "check out" of life because they have noone to turn too. (I could go on and on.) If anyone is interested in male depression read the book, "I don't want talk about it." by Terrence Real for an enlightening examination of this issue.
This is not a new issue but an old one that still only gets occasional press or attention.
Tony
Tony H
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This is not a new issue but an old one that still only gets occasional press or attention.
That's exactly what we're trying to change, my friend. However, it looks like a "recent epidemic" when you look at the statistics in these reports, especially considering the rate at which divorce and child custody battles skyrocketed over the past 30 years (although the reality is even older).
Hey, even old Hank Williams sang about it:
Tonight my head is bowed in sorrow
I can't keep the tears from my eyes
My son calls another man daddy
The right to his love I've been denied...
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Nightmist: Do you know how old this Hank Williams song is? What's its name? Thanks.
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Nightmist: Do you know how old this Hank Williams song is? What's its name? Thanks.
Hey, Thomas.
It's called "My Son Calls Another Man Daddy" and it's on the double-CD "40 Greatest Hits" (available at almost all online record outlets). I don't have the CD in front of me, so I don't know when it was recorded. I would guess the 1950s.
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I just saw that the usual link to Wendy's column isn't at the bottom of FoxNews.com's home page. Instead, a link to her column is buried in their "Views" section. Let's write in and let them know that we'd like them to keep her link prominent. Here's what I sent them at foxnewsonline@foxnews.com (with a blind cc sent to Wendy at mac@ifeminists.com):
"Dear Sir/Madam:
"I have always looked forward to Wendy McElroy's/Ifeminists column on FoxNews.com every Tuesday morning. It has been a pleasure to see the link at the bottom of your home page. Today, however, I have found that link buried in your "Views" section and, instead, an article on K Mart linked from Wendy's usual location on your site.
"Frankly, I find the K Mart story to be old news but, more important than that, I have always found Wendy's column to be extremely insightful. She dares to discuss, intelligently and with courage, topics that many news outlets won't cover. Please consider returning her link to its previous location on your home page."
Feel free to take from this as you choose.
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I just saw that the usual link to Wendy's column isn't at the bottom of FoxNews.com's home page.
Good catch, Thomas. I usually just go straight to http://www.foxnews.com/ifeminists/ when I'm looking for her latest column, so I skip the home page now. Therefore, I didn't know that they weren't linking to her from there anymore.
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Obviously, there is an epidemic of male suicide caused by stress and depression. What is the source of that stress? It is clearly, the biased and illegal laws present in our court systems that are designed to criminalize men.
It is a sad fact of American History that men will be forced to resort to civil disobedience and possibly riots before the laws will be changed. We are already seeing the beginnings of this in the form of suicides.
When (not if) that happens the super-fems will become threatened and fear a loss of power. After all, a dead man cannot pay over half of their paycheck in child support. Only then will the elites in power reconsider the massive injustice that are being heaped upon men.
If the suicides are to be inevitable due to the stress of the injustices and the depression, let them be on the steps of a Court House with the man clutching the illegal orders of servitude that cause the death.
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"It is clearly, the biased and illegal laws present in our court systems that are designed to criminalize men."
How can a law be illegal? ;) But I do agree with your overall argument.
You need your beets -- you recycle, recycle!
Don't eat your beets -- recycle, recycle!
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I wonder how long it will be before men stop taking their lives and begin to take those of the lawyers, the judges, and family aid workers.
We have already seen the beginning of this. A few days ago, a divorce lawyer, who almost exclusively represented women and was well known for destroying ex-husbands, was shot in the face through an open office-window here in Colorado. The police are first investigating the men, whose lives this lawyer crushed. This is not the only example of this sort of thing happening.
I have a question (a question, not an advocation of violence): Does anyone here know of any case in history in which a profoundly evil, deeply entrenched, ruling group was removed from power without its victims resorting to violence?
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I have a question (a question, not an advocation of violence): Does anyone here know of any case in history in which a profoundly evil, deeply entrenched, ruling group was removed from power without its victims resorting to violence?
Montgomery, Ala. 1960s.
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Montgomery, Ala. 1960s
Actually, the movement that started (or at least took a big leap) in Montgomery, Ala., on December 1, 1955 required a number of years of work. Many would say that movement is still going on. The defiant act of Rosa Parks and the bus-boycott helped, but they didn't remove an entrenched hate group without many other actions across the country. I remember numerous race riots during the 1960s and, whether we like it or not, those riots went a long way to bring attention to and then end much of the gross oppression of blacks.
One might claim that violence was not necessary, but that doesn't change the fact that violence was used in this case to remove the hate group from power. The black civil rights movement has very often been marked by violent insurrections.
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Exactly what I had in mind when avocating civil disobedience....not violence (Montgomery, Ala. 1960's).
Unfortunately, the legal system has already most likely gone too far. That means it may be impossible to avoid some form of violence.
Hence we see the initial rumblings in the form of suicides caused by stress and depression caused by illegal (unjust) laws. Remember, this has been in the making for two decades. It has not just begun.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday January 29, @02:48PM EST (#18)
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I dunno, guys. It's about 2:45 EST on Tuesday and I just checked the links to Wendy's column and I found them just where I expected them to be. I'll concede though that I'm not as regular a reader as I have been in the past, for no other reason than I'm not at my computer quite as much.
It's good to let them know we're keeping an eye on them, but let's just make sure we have the ducks lined up in a row whe we do complain.
Frank H
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This is good to see. The link was not there this morning and Wendy expressed concern over the matter when I contacted her twice by email. I'll let her know it's back where it belongs.
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It seems something fishy is going on at FoxNews.com, possibly because Wendy has so directly and forcefully addressed such a serious men's rights issue. Carefully written, respectful emails, phone calls and hard copy letters won't hurt and may help a great deal.
Note that the email address is, foxnewsonline@foxnews.com
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This is a rough table I constructed reflecting these numbers and yearly increments. As more and more men entered the "system"
There are an estimated 16 attempted suicides for each completed suicide. The ratio is lower in women and youth and higher in men and the elderly. Suicide attempts are expressions of extreme distress that need to be addressed, and not just a harmless bid for attention. A suicidal person should not be left alone and needs immediate mental health treatment.
Suicide took the lives of 30,903 Americans in 1996
data................ @ +1% / year........ @ data................ @ +1% / year........ @ +5% / year........ @ +10% / year
year................ 1996................ 1996................ 1996
sucide.............. 30,903.00........... 30,903.00........... 30,903.00
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 618,060.00.......... 618,060.00.......... 618,060.00
misery.............. 648,963.00.......... 648,963.00.......... 648,963.00
year................ 1997................ 1997................ 1997
sucide.............. 31,212.03........... 32,448.15........... 33,993.30
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 624,240.60.......... 648,963.00.......... 679,866.00
misery.............. 655,452.63.......... 681,411.15.......... 713,859.30
year................ 1998................ 1998................ 1998
sucide.............. 31,524.15........... 34,070.56........... 37,392.63
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 630,483.01.......... 681,411.15.......... 747,852.60
misery.............. 662,007.16.......... 715,481.71.......... 785,245.23
year................ 1999................ 1999................ 1999
sucide.............. 31,839.39........... 35,774.09........... 41,131.89
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 636,787.84.......... 715,481.71.......... 822,637.86
misery.............. 668,627.23.......... 751,255.79.......... 863,769.75
year................ 2000................ 2000................ 2000
sucide.............. 32,157.79........... 37,562.79........... 45,245.08
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 643,155.71.......... 751,255.79.......... 904,901.65
misery.............. 675,313.50.......... 788,818.58.......... 950,146.73
year................ 2001................ 2001................ 2001
sucide.............. 32,479.36........... 39,440.93........... 49,769.59
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 649,587.27.......... 788,818.58.......... 995,391.81
misery.............. 682,066.64.......... 828,259.51.......... 1,045,161.40
year................ 2002................ 2002................ 2002
sucide.............. 32,804.16........... 41,412.98........... 54,746.55
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 656,083.14.......... 828,259.51.......... 1,094,930.99
misery.............. 688,887.30.......... 869,672.49.......... 1,149,677.54
Six year total
sucide.............. 222,919.88.......... 251,612.49.......... 293,182.05
attempts............ 4,458,397.57........ 5,032,249.74........ 5,863,640.91
misery.............. 4,681,317.45........ 5,283,862.23........ 6,156,822.95
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data................ at +1% / year....... at +5% / year....... at +10% / year
year................ 1996................ 1996................ 1996
sucide.............. 30,903.00........... 30,903.00........... 30,903.00
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 618,060.00.......... 618,060.00.......... 618,060.00
misery.............. 648,963.00.......... 648,963.00.......... 648,963.00
year................ 1997................ 1997................ 1997
sucide.............. 31,212.03........... 32,448.15........... 33,993.30
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 624,240.60.......... 648,963.00.......... 679,866.00
misery.............. 655,452.63.......... 681,411.15.......... 713,859.30
year................ 1998................ 1998................ 1998
sucide.............. 31,524.15........... 34,070.56........... 37,392.63
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 630,483.01.......... 681,411.15.......... 747,852.60
misery.............. 662,007.16.......... 715,481.71.......... 785,245.23
year................ 1999................ 1999................ 1999
sucide.............. 31,839.39........... 35,774.09........... 41,131.89
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 636,787.84.......... 715,481.71.......... 822,637.86
misery.............. 668,627.23.......... 751,255.79.......... 863,769.75
year................ 2000................ 2000................ 2000
sucide.............. 32,157.79........... 37,562.79........... 45,245.08
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 643,155.71.......... 751,255.79.......... 904,901.65
misery.............. 675,313.50.......... 788,818.58.......... 950,146.73
year................ 2001................ 2001................ 2001
sucide.............. 32,479.36........... 39,440.93........... 49,769.59
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 649,587.27.......... 788,818.58.......... 995,391.81
misery.............. 682,066.64.......... 828,259.51.......... 1,045,161.40
year................ 2002................ 2002................ 2002
sucide.............. 32,804.16........... 41,412.98........... 54,746.55
ratio............... 20.................. 20.................. 20
attempts............ 656,083.14.......... 828,259.51.......... 1,094,930.99
misery.............. 688,887.30.......... 869,672.49.......... 1,149,677.54
Six year total
sucide.............. 222,919.88.......... 251,612.49.......... 293,182.05
attempts............ 4,458,397.57........ 5,032,249.74........ 5,863,640.91
misery.............. 4,681,317.45........ 5,283,862.23........ 6,156,822.95
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another view
Even if the data is adjusted for white males only and just in the USA then the numbers are still quite large.
data................at +1% / year.......at +5% / year.......at +10% / year
year................1996................1996...... ..........1996
sucide..............22,559.19...........22,559.19. ..........22,559.19
ratio...............20..................20........ ..........20
attempts............451,183.80..........451,183.80 ..........451,183.80
misery..............473,742.99..........473,742.99 ..........473,742.99
year................1997................1997...... ..........1997
sucide..............22,784.78...........23,687.15. ..........24,815.11
ratio...............20..................20........ ..........20
attempts............455,695.64..........473,742.99 ..........496,302.18
misery..............478,480.42..........497,430.14 ..........521,117.29
year................1998................1998...... ..........1998
sucide..............23,012.63...........24,871.51. ..........27,296.62
ratio...............20..................20........ ..........20
attempts............460,252.59..........497,430.14 ..........545,932.40
misery..............483,265.22..........522,301.65 ..........573,229.02
year................1999................1999...... ..........1999
sucide..............23,242.76...........26,115.08. ..........30,026.28
ratio...............20..................20........ ..........20
attempts............464,855.12..........522,301.65 ..........600,525.64
misery..............488,097.88..........548,416.73 ..........630,551.92
year................2000................2000...... ..........2000
sucide..............23,475.18...........27,420.84. ..........33,028.91
ratio...............20..................20........ ..........20
attempts............469,503.67..........548,416.73 ..........660,578.20
misery..............492,978.86..........575,837.57 ..........693,607.11
year................2001................2001...... ..........2001
sucide..............23,709.94...........28,791.88. ..........36,331.80
ratio...............20..................20........ ..........20
attempts............474,198.71..........575,837.57 ..........726,636.02
misery..............497,908.64..........604,629.44 ..........762,967.82
year................2002................2002...... ..........2002
sucide..............23,947.03...........30,231.47. ..........39,964.98
ratio...............20..................20........ ..........20
attempts............478,940.70..........604,629.44 ..........799,299.62
misery..............502,887.73..........634,860.92 ..........839,264.61
Six year total
sucide..............162,731.51..........183,677.12 ..........214,022.89
attempts............3,254,630.23........3,673,542. 31........4,280,457.86
misery..............3,417,361.74........3,857,219. 43........4,494,480.76
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