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Let SHE who is without sin, cast the first stone.
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My wife and I read the article. I liked it, al ot. She cried. To her, the author is degrading all women.
We have a problem here. What men see as truth and need to be said, is highly offensive to many women: Talk about your confilct of interest!
We need, desperately, to remove the "All men are pigs" garbage: That is abundantly clear. Doing so will involve hurting women's feelings: That too is clear. How then do we resolve the matter so that BOTH groups get what they need?
I do not know. Do you?
Greg
the Volksgaren Project: Intelligent Abuse Recovery, http://clix.to/support/, jaxom@amtelecom.net, 519-773-9644
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Jax, Your wife's reaction is not unlike what Iwould expect from my own. Is it because they were taught for so long that they were innocent just by virtue of being female? Perhaps.
My daughter is learning some lessons not unlike this from acquaintences in college. There is a group, she calls them the Texas girls (they must be from Texas, though I don't think their place of national origin has much to do with it), who have come to college with the specific intent of bedding as many guys as possible. She told me once that they brag about it frequently.
It might well be that women know very well what the score is but they just refuse to concede that they might well be acting the same way as men, or at least, they refuse to acknowledge it to men. Which merely indicates to me just how many women have been taught, deliberately or otherwise, that men are a lower form of life.
While I don't particularly like to make my wife cry, I think that the only way to push back is to keep these things in the public view. Force women, as a group, to look at themselves more critically. Demand more accountablility from the feminists on their "statistics." It will take a long time to turn around. It didn't start in our lifetime and it probably won't there either. And we need to teach our sons to press on as well.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday January 19, @08:35AM EST (#4)
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The article was nothing but the writer's sexist opinions. I note that he was very selective in what few "statistics" he added.
His claim that men have "uncontrollable urges" is absolute garbage and the same excuse many rapists have used for years.
It's the need to objectify and have power over women, not testosterone, that makes porn attractive to men. If testosterone was the problem, these men would be out looking for a real flesh and blood woman to have sex with.
The writer's assertion that women "dominate" the Porn Industry really had me in fits of laughter.
Everyone knows that this industry is almost entirely run by men and always has been (Just looking at the women acting like performing seals in Seaworld ought to be enough to tell you that the director is male). If these type of articles are the best you can come up with then you're seriously risking your credibility.
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The article was nothing but the writer's sexist opinions. I note that he was very selective in what few "statistics" he added.
Fair enough, feminists arguing that "all men are pigs" do exactly the same all the time: they're selling their sexist opinions as "fact", and are extremely selective wrt heir statistics.
It's the need to objectify and have power over women, not testosterone, that makes porn attractive to men.
Of all the garabge feminists have been dishing out in the past 10 years, this has to be the most idiotic bit by far. Feminists dislike porn because they hate men and heterosexual sex, and thus hate everything that depicts women in a sexual way. Not wanting to make this too obvious, they claim that pornography is about power, not about sex. Which is, of course, total bullshit, as every man knows.
We may indeed have some hard-to-control urges, but "objectifying" women is certainly not one of them.
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The article was nothing but the writer's sexist opinions. I note that he was very selective in what few "statistics" he added.
His claim that men have "uncontrollable urges" is absolute garbage and the same excuse many rapists have used for years.
It's the need to objectify and have power over women, not testosterone, that makes porn attractive to men. If testosterone was the problem, these men would be out looking for a real flesh and blood woman to have sex with.
The writer's assertion that women "dominate" the Porn Industry really had me in fits of laughter.
Everyone knows that this industry is almost entirely run by men and always has been (Just looking at the women acting like performing seals in Seaworld ought to be enough to tell you that the director is male). If these type of articles are the best you can come up with then you're seriously risking your credibility.
That's pretty hilarious, Anonymous. Ever heard of Blaise Moi? Translated from French it means Rape Me and it's a film written, starring, and directed by women. It's particularly hardcore, in fact, and is shown in many "art" houses around the United States (in France, it has been banned).
If you actually did some research, you'd find out the porn industry is full of women who write and direct.
I agree with you about the "uncontrollable urges" bit, but I completely disagree that pornography is about "objectifying and dominating women." Baloney. Perhaps some of it is, but not all of it. And there are just as much porn depicting the domination and objectification of men.
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Some will probably consider this nit-picking, but the title is "Baise-moi", and that means "Fuck me!", not "Rape me!".
If I remember correctly, said film also contains a lot of violence directed at men.
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Some will probably consider this nit-picking, but the title is "Baise-moi", and that means "Fuck me!", not "Rape me!".
If I remember correctly, said film also contains a lot of violence directed at men.
Thanks, Phil. I was going by what I read in the newspaper. :)
Yes, the film has been described as a "hardcore Thelma & Louise, which, IMO, should make it that much worse in the minds of those who have a problem with porn. It's got graphic violence in the mix.
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Your wife is taking that article too personally. I read it and didn't have a problem with it.
I thought the little pig icons were cute. Why do people say, "You're a pig" as if a pig is something awful? Pigs are intelligent, beautiful animals.
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From the article:
I want people to better understand that men and women are more alike than they think when it comes to sex and sins of the flesh. In order to do this, I will show, by example, how women behave in the exact manner that they accuse only men of behaving: like pigs.
Whenever a man dares to point out that women are no better than men, many women consider it an attack on all women. And that, my friends, is a sexist attack on men.
As for the porn industry. I think it was Naomi Wolf who had an article published in the New Yorker describing how women have taken over the porn industry. Feminists hate porn in large part, as Phil pointed out, because they hate men and heterosexual sex. They also hate porn because it reduces the power that women have over men. If everyone involved in the porn is a consenting adult, then while it may not be the finest relationship that people can share, there's nothing wrong with it.
As for the cheating, I've read two polls in the last three years or so (I'm not certain, but I think Cathy Young mentioned one in an article and the other was reported in the Rocky Mountain News) that showed that married women under the age of about 35 cheat on their husbands more often than men of that age cheat on their wives.
I personally know about twice as many women as men who've cheated. In fact one women I know has told me how she and her women-friends get together and share stories about their affairs. Another woman I know cheated on her boyfriend. He found out and broke up with her and about a week later, so she told me, she got together with women-friends and they all shared stories about what cold pigs men are.
Technology, through safe abortions and birth control has freed women. Women now face the same or fewer consequences as men for cheating. (A wife who cheats is more likely than a husband who cheats to get custody of the children, alimony and the house. As we know, her government often forces the man to pay child support for children who aren't his.) In addition, through feminism, a large percentage of women have come to believe that men are low-life scum. So, why shouldn't women cheat? Given these facts, I'd be very surprised if women don't cheat far more often than men.
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Now the genfems are infiltrating our precious boards? My God!
I know a lot of girls who will just say, "Oh, I need to get banged," or something of the sort. But then again, there are girls who express the same opinion that heterosexual sex is all about power, not reproduction and pleasure. And to everyone who complains about the objectification of women: Keep in mind that there is gay male porn out there (which I so happen to like...hehe).
Reminds me of a conversation I had with my sociology teacher last semester, who maintained women's bodies were treated as objects in American culture. A girl said that she stared down guys as much as guys stared her down. Then the prof got really mad and started talking about Hooters and how it's considered "no big deal". She then asked why there's no restaurant called "Peckers". To which I replied: "If there were, it'd only be successful in Greenwich Village!" The whole class laughed and the prof was really really embarassed!!! :)
"Female men's activist" is not an oxymoron.
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These comments by LadyRivka and Claire intrigue me.
I have a woman-friend who occasionally goes to porn shops to view the videos. She told me that her favorites are the ones of gay men. We so often think that men like the idea of women having sex with each other, especially if they, the men, are involved, but we rarely think that women may be equally turned on by the same idea with the sexes switched. Now I'm starting to wonder.
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I don't get HBO, either at home or at college, so I'm missing out. :(
However, I DO read (and write) a lot of gay male erotica and m/m slash (which is the term for GM erotica in fanfiction). I almost never put a girl in the sex scenes, but I usually include them as friends or whatnot.
We so often think that men like the idea of women having sex with each other, especially if they, the men, are involved, but we rarely think that women may be equally turned on by the same idea with the sexes switched. Now I'm starting to wonder.
Yep- especially younger gals who weren't raised homophobic and freer sexuality-wise than our parents and grandparents. I actually read the magazine OUT before the LBQTA (an all-female LBGT group @ Wells) decided to not subscribe anymore and to throw away their old issues b/c they focused more on gay men than they did lesbians (which the lesbians decried as "patriarchal" and "sexist"- many lesbians up @ the college are very phallophobic, which means they dislike gay guys more than they do straight guys, go figure).
Oink, oink. Glad to be a female pig, or what many would derisively term a "f*g-hag".
"Female men's activist" is not an oxymoron.
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Thanks for the bit of insight on this, LadyRivka and Claire. Ya learn, or start to learn, somethin' new every day.
Okay now, group oink, group oink.
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Okay now, group oink, group oink.
In honor of our radfem troll on another thread, I think I'm going to change my "oink" to a "laughing snort" instead. ;)
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Fine with me. Group snort. Group snort.
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I believe the first season of QAF is now out on video and DVD. If you like slash, you'll love QAF.
I've never written any slash, but I enjoy reading it sometimes. I've written a few m/m erotica stories, which I'm thinking of submitting to the Nifty Archive. I also really enjoy the transgender sci-fi/magic stories over there. It inspired me to try writing some TG sci-fi, which I also want to submit.
Most slash (gay male fanfic) is written by straight and bisexual women. More women enjoy gay male porn than are willing to admit it.
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Most slash (gay male fanfic) is written by straight and bisexual women. More women enjoy gay male porn than are willing to admit it.
But I do know some gay guys online who write slash...but it IS mostly women.
"Female men's activist" is not an oxymoron.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday January 20, @06:04PM EST (#22)
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Lady Rivka,
You certainly seem to have assumed a lot about me.
I mentioned nothing about heterosexual sex being about power. Being happily heterosexual myself, why would I say that?
Porn and sex are NOT the same thing. I said that PORN, including gay porn, is about power and objectification.
Ask some of your gay male friends how many of them have been the victims of rape by other gay males. You might be surprised.
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Porn and sex are NOT the same thing. I said that PORN, including gay porn, is about power and objectification.
Backpedaling now? No, you said PORN is about the objectification and power over WOMEN. You claimed men are the sole partakers of producers of such pornography and that its sole purpose is to oppress your sex.
Several posts in this thread aside from LadyRivka's have argued with you, are you going to address those issues as well? What about Baise Moi and films like that?
For that matter, what's your definition of porn?
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We need, desperately, to remove the "All men are pigs" garbage: That is abundantly clear. Doing so will involve hurting women's feelings: That too is clear. How then do we resolve the matter so that BOTH groups get what they need?
My last girlfriend used to get really upset when anyone in her presence said anything derogatory about women (she also hated it that I got involved in men's issues). But it was still perfectly fine for her to go around hating men all the time. When I pointed out the hypocrisy to her, she broke down in tears as well and screamed "You REALLY don't see the difference, do you?"
"There is no difference between," I said, and then I left.
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she broke down in tears
Very often tears are a powerful weapon used by women against men.
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Whenever you are looking to discredit someone's argument, all you have to do is look for phrases such as "everybody knows...". In such a case, their own words are enough to betray both them and the premise upon which their argument is based.
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In my persnal opinion, porn is not about power or anything like that. Sure, some of it is viscerally disgusting, but that's the end of the argmuent. Porn is the end (?) of a long line of tradition from Ancient Greece on. Many a masterpiece of literature or art has included some nudity or graphic sex (Chaucer being a notorious example, also the bawdiness of Shakespeare, the male nudes of the Rennaisance and Classical Greek/Roman period, etc.).
As long as human beings have a sex drive, there will be an artistic outlet for it. This is what separates human sex from animal sex (more or less).
One of the stereotypes our anonymous friend uses is the "Big Bad Rapist". Simply not true. Not all men rape. Period. Sexual orientation doesn't matter. And it may startle you to know women rape men and other women...
And if you're straight and happy, why do you keep fretting about the "balance of power" in het relationships, or ANY relationship involving men for that matter? I have a boyfriend and I see him as a person and not an oppressive, power-hungry male, because that's what he is, a PERSON. I think we pay too much attention to the sub-catergories of humanity rather than looking at the whole human race as a unified whole.
"Female men's activist" is not an oxymoron.
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