|
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think it was John Barrymore who said, "The way to fight a woman is with your hat. Grab it and run." I wonder if boys growing up today are coming to the conclusion that they should have sex with girls and then just get the hell away from them. And that they should never, never, never allow a female to become pregnant using their sperm.
And as for their relationships with their feminist mothers, well...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Thursday January 17, @11:01AM EST (#2)
|
|
|
|
|
"For girls listening to top-40, no man will ever be able to compete with pop princesses' disastrous girl-power philosophy."
then they're going to be in for quite a disappointment from any man who thinks for himself. one might claim that there are few who do but i'd consider this another stereotype. i've know of quite a number of intelligent men who are crystal clear on where things are at. the challenge, i think, is getting up to do something about it. that grey line of how far "girl-power" can go keeps getting pushed further and further. i'm all for equality (why do i have to explicitly say that? is it assumed otherwise if i don't?) but we're far past that point and i'm glad that there are others who think that it's about time we said something without reservations. cheers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Perhaps we should start letter campaigns to their record labels?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Thursday January 17, @11:24AM EST (#4)
|
|
|
|
|
If someone has the info, I'll submit a letter...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Brandy's official site:
http://www.foreverbrandy.com/
Brandy's label is Atlantic records:
http://www.atlanticrecords.com/
Unable to find any contact info so far.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Destiny Child's record label is Columbia Records. I haven't found any contact information, but their website is:
http://www.columbiarecords.com/
Brandy's record label, like Nightmist said, is Atlantic Records. Their contact method is through a website form, and can be reached at this URL:
http://www.atlantic-records.com/contactUs_frameset .html
Hope this helps, although I have a gut feeling that arguments to this issue will fall on deaf ears, as it's done in the past. Good luck everyone.
"Stereotypes are devices that save a biased person the trouble of learning."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hope this helps, although I have a gut feeling that arguments to this issue will fall on deaf ears, as it's done in the past. Good luck everyone.
Perhaps... but don't forget our successes, like Ames Dept. stores.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think that some of us are missing the point.
While it is true that these women are expressing hatred of men, they are also defying the politically correct dictum that art must toe the line politically.
In other words, they may be writing truthfully, from their viewpoint, about the quality of their personal romantic relationships. I don't think that it is a good idea to try to boycott artists out of expressing their personal viewpoint. That's what art is about.
The hatred of men that these women is probably true for them. Many of the women cited are black women, who must contend with the many negatives of relating to black men who do not have jobs or who are not performing as fathers. (Why they are not performing as fathers is another issue, which may be better explained from the vantage point of men's issues.)
We should not ask artists to toe a politically correct line, not even our own. When people cannot speak their minds in public, all that is created is a public atmosphere of deception and lies. We're better off knowing what these girls are thinking. At least we can fight back with that knowledge.
Stephen
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
We should not ask artists to toe a politically correct line, not even our own. When people cannot speak their minds in public, all that is created is a public atmosphere of deception and lies. We're better off knowing what these girls are thinking. At least we can fight back with that knowledge.
So we should censor our own opinions about their work? And considering Brandy, for one, has had a pretty successful career so far (and is quite young), I doubt she's really had to experience any genuine "negatives of relating to black men who do not hav jobs or who are not performing as fathers." And, by the way, are you making some assumptions here about black men?
They're not making statements. They're pandering to what they see as a market for hatred. Women wouldn't put up with anti-woman sentiments expressed by male artists, especially ones which depict violence toward women. Why should we?
Political correctness is *not* expressing criticism of a so-called artist's work. Nor did anyone here call for a boycott. A boycott would be ineffective considering that few of the folks who visit here are the ones who buy Brandy's records.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I agree that we shouldn't ask artists to toe a politically correct line, as my views on free speech would dictate, but the problem lies in the political correctness itself. Men are constantly degraded and forced out of the family "picture" because it's the current politically correct view. Degrade men to uplift others. Therefore, you could say the artists in question are, in fact, toeing (not sure about spelling) that specific P.C. line.
Also, the base of your argument is that these women are the victims of bad relationships with black men. What if the Brandy video shows white men in the mountain of bodies she stands on? Does it still show her resentment to her ex-boyfriends, or does it allude to the "Men Are Pigs" notion that has been circulating since N.O.W. was created?
By the way, I don't think anybody who visits this site wants to silence women in any way, shape, or form. The goal is total equality between the sexes, and I want to be assured that if I ever find myself in a relationship, I won't be looked upon by my futue girlfriend/wife as a sexist pig who deserves to be walked all over. That stereotype got old about five minutes after it was created.
"Stereotypes are devices that save a biased person the trouble of learning."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nightmist is right. People who spew feminist hate have the right to express their opinions and it's good for us to know what they are. We, too, have the right to express our opinions and it's good for them to know what those are.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I agree that we shouldn't ask artists to toe a politically correct line, as my views on free speech would dictate, but the problem lies in the political correctness itself. Men are constantly degraded and forced out of the family "picture" because it's the current politically correct view. Degrade men to uplift others. Therefore, you could say the artists in question are, in fact, toeing (not sure about spelling) that specific P.C. line.
Exactly right, Deacon.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Thursday January 17, @05:47PM EST (#20)
|
|
|
|
|
"Women wouldn't put up with anti-woman sentiments expressed by male artists, especially ones which depict violence toward women. Why should we? "
You obviously haven't listened to a lot of rap artists. A lot of them express nothing but anti-woman sentiments and what about the well known song by the band Prodigy called "smack my bitch up"?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You obviously haven't listened to a lot of rap artists. A lot of them express nothing but anti-woman sentiments and what about the well known song by the band Prodigy called "smack my bitch up"?
No, rap doesn't appeal to me. But you should note that the reason people know about "smack my bitch up" is because of the uproar it caused among women.
Even if women didn't complain, though, that doesn't mean men shouldn't if we want. And just because there's anti-woman sentiment in rap music doesn't justify anti-man sentiment in any other media.
Hate in generalities simply isn't justifiable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Thursday January 17, @06:11PM EST (#22)
|
|
|
|
|
Nightmist:
I guess I've waited long enough to tell you this: Had I been writing about transplanting pig tissue into men, I probably wouldn't have been able to resist the pun "Men are Pigs". You can take from this what you will. I hope I'm not misandrist.
Anyway, I do wish you luck with Destiny's Child. Those three ho's (er, beautiful ladies of gentle sweetness)actually have more than 3 anti-male songs, so for them it really is a problem. Btw: Wonder how much money they've made off bashing men.
Remo
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, I do wish you luck with Destiny's Child. Those three ho's (er, beautiful ladies of gentle sweetness)actually have more than 3 anti-male songs, so for them it really is a problem. Btw: Wonder how much money they've made off bashing men.
No luck wishing is necessary. Again, it's not about suppressing their views or changing their minds. It's about making sure they (or their management) know they're doing a disservice.
I'm also certain they've made a ton of money off bashing men, which is all the more reason to get our message out there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"Women wouldn't put up with anti-woman sentiments expressed by male artists, especially ones which depict violence toward women. Why should we? "
You obviously haven't listened to a lot of rap artists. A lot of them express nothing but anti-woman sentiments and what about the well known song by the band Prodigy called "smack my bitch up"?
You missed the point. Nightmist didn't state that there are no misogynistic lyrics in music. He pointed out that women protest those lyrics.
Men should protest anti-male hatred.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
And in fact, there ARE examples of the kind of "censorship" of such artists in the media, for example, Eminem, who has been the target of many a campaign to get his music off the airwaves. Yet I have not found any credible evidence of men being able to have such an influence on music that denigrates them, notwithstanding my personal campaign against "Goodbye Earl."
So, AU, we don't condone anti-woman messages here any more than we condone anti-male messages. We just choose to focus on anti-male messages because no one else seems to care.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Thursday January 17, @08:17PM EST (#26)
|
|
|
|
|
Yet I have not found any credible evidence of men being able to have such an influence on music that denigrates them, notwithstanding my personal campaign against "Goodbye Earl."
Thats true, because for far too long its been the case that if you degrade women, the vast majority of both sexes will get on your case. However, should you degrade men, you might get a respectable number of female antagonists, but you won't get many male ones.
If you want to see the damage (and extent) of old-fashioned attitudes , then go to Frontpage Magazine. Recently, some man who disagrees (unlike myself) with the current way the "war on terror" is being waged, dared to express the opinion that the loud-mouthed warhawk Ann Coulter should shut up, as he had defended her and the country, while she would never be required to dig a ditch.
(As an aside, I like Ann. When she's calm , she can be funny and decently intelligent, even when one disagrees with her. However, when she's mad, she brings the stereotype of "ditzy blonde" to new heights, not to mention reminds me of a rabid dog, frothing at the mouth)
The letters editor, Richard Poe (who I quite like and respect) responded thusly:
A. First, no man would ever speak to a woman like that for any reason.
B. Women have the right to demand that men protect them, and question the "manhood" of any man who refuses to do so.
C. Most women don't want to go in the trenches, and one jolly well shouldn't make them.
D. Men and women are different , and the fact that the letter writer ( who was operating from an egalitarian perspective) didn't seem to know that was frightening.
Mr. Poe is fiftyish, if that means anything.
Anyway, I suppose I should ask Mr. Poe just what women's obligations to society are. The answer (if I get any) might be illuminating.
Remo
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Thursday January 17, @01:41PM EST (#11)
|
|
|
|
|
Late in the summer, when that song "hit 'em up style" was really popular, I used to crank it as loud as I could on my car's stereo (I have an amp and a subwoofer, so it got pretty loud). One night the song came on and I was driving down a back road, driving a bit faster than usual because the song pisses me off so much, and a cop tagged me. I was so angry and irrational I tried to out run him, but apparently the person behind me was speeding so he pulled that person over instead. I had sped up to 95 on a 45 MPH back road by then. I was lucky I didn't get ticketed and that I didn't get into an accident in the process. What I did was stupid.
The music really is hazardous to men's health. Now I just turn the radio off when I hear the song.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The music really is hazardous to men's health. Now I just turn the radio off when I hear the song.
Wow, anon. I'm glad you didn't get a reckless driving charge, but this also seems like a good time to remind us all that we must be concerned (and even angry), but not reckless. Type the frustration onto your word processor and ship it off to Atlantic Records.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
As a musician and tune-smith/ composer myself, I can't imagine wanting anything censored, unless there was truly a lack of representation from opposing ideas via suppresion. Anything that hints in mainstream music (definitely not rap. The C is silent in rap) about hatred of or anger towards females is....missing. Hmmmm. I am finishing up an instrumental at the moment, called "Last Nightmare with Lillith" that depicts the gradual awakening of my own self AND of society to the nightmare occuring because of genfem ideology, and of it's ultimate defeat by the likes of us. I do electronica/ house, so hopefully that means local club play, but I get much inspiration from my own anger at the genfems. Truly, I would rather they go away in defeat, and I can be inspired by anger at something less damaging to society.
Adam Smith
lc4m Texas
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Anonymous User on Thursday January 17, @03:35PM EST (#16)
|
|
|
|
|
It is created by radical marketing execs that find young sexy women to front the this girl friendly (power) facade.
We all knew that the innocence of bubble-gum pop that had strong "grrl power" sentiments was going to grow into something that demonized heterosexual relations that instill misandric sentiments in young girls (and boys too).
This "music" is directly marketed to young girls. It's not by mistake. It is all part of feminist social engineering. It really doesn't even qualify as art because all the rhythms and themes are essentially the same and copied to some extent or another. The only thing that has changed is the message.
On the nation wide level that this music thrives in, it is not controlled by the "artists" at all.
So writing letters of disapproval to the execs has nothing to do with the silencing the artists.
CJ
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't have any issue with freedom of speech. An artist can write and publish whatever they want, as long as it doesn't constitute something illegal, like a terrorist threat. The real target ought to be the radio and television stations who play that garbage. They use music (or other content) to attract listeners or viewers, then they exploit the listenership/viewership to sell advertising and thus make a profit. When the Dixie Chicks released "Goodbye Earl" I howled at the two country radio stations in my area and let them know in no uncertain terms that they were endangering their listenership, at least as far as I was concerned, and for one of them I threatened to contact all of their major sponsors. Perhaps the best thing to do is to contact VH-1 and MTV and say something like this: "Dear Sir or Madam, All of the televisions in my house have V-chips, and if I see this kind of garbage on your channel, I will use it to see to it that [MTV/VH-1] is never seen again in my house. Further, I will be advising your major sponsors of my intent."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Not a bad idea, frank. IN FACT, Brandy's Web site has a How-To section on requesting her new song. Perhaps we should take that information and do the reverse.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Outrageous, extreme and psuedo-rebellionsness sells to teens. Thats the bottom line in the music business. The more outrageous and obnoxios the better. Its been that way for a long long time.
Also, the lyrics are considerably less disgusting than those in much rap music. That's not to say its defensible, but let's show our outrage at all hate speech to be consistent.
The artists have a right to express disgusting hateful messages. We have a right to criticize and protest it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wow, so the world is becoming a macrocosm of Wells College.
At the college, your musical tastes are defined as pro-Ani DiFranco or anti-Ani. I am the latter; I listen to such bands as Red Hot Chili Peppers, Incubus, NIN, Tool, Orgy, Rob Zombie, etc. (with a little Pink Floyd, Peter Gabriel and Depeche Mode thrown in for good measure). You get a lot of heckling if you don't like Ani or other "womynist" folk-singers. (But there are some lesbians who stopped visiting the folk scene and listen to many of the same bands I do.)
I don't listen to much pop or rap, and if I do, it's because my mom or my brother is driving the car, or if I'm watching MTV (who I'm mad at b/c they don't play that much rock/metal/alternative anymore).
Another thing I'm surprised at is that genfems don't protest male rockers...wel, OK, I remember when Blood Sugar Sex Magik came out (I was 10 or so) there was a lot of debate about it on MTV. I got the album, and it wasn't that bad. Certainly classier than rap, in a sense.
"Female men's activist" is not an oxymoron.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I mean I got the Peppers album this semester, NOT when it came out. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
-Rivka
"Female men's activist" is not an oxymoron.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Alright, LadyRivka!
A little off topic for me, but any fan of the Pepps and Peter Gabriel has got to be on the same team I am.:-)
Although I must admit sometimes I have to ignore Pete's ultra socialist views in some of his lyrics, at least he's not male/female bashing.
Adam Smith
lc4m Texas
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
First of all, I gotta say that worldnetdaily.com really needs to learn how to spell Britney Spears' name (they've got it as Speers) if they're to have any credibility on pop culture matters in my book.
Second, I used this is the first stuff that I've read on mensactivism.org (and I've been visiting for about a year without posting) that's really made me uncomfortable. If someone doesn't like the men's studies class happening at their local university, does this mean we encourage them to get on a campaign to wipe it out? I'd say that if you don't like Brandy, or whoever, and you attack the record companies, or the company that sponsors her next tour, you're engaging in censorship. Let's call this for what it is. Let the market decide. If you don't like it, don't look or listen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'd say that if you don't like Brandy, or whoever, and you attack the record companies, or the company that sponsors her next tour, you're engaging in censorship. Let's call this for what it is. Let the market decide. If you don't like it, don't look or listen.
Uhm, how can expressing your opinion be an "attack" or "censorship?" I work in the media, dzuunmod, I'm the first to protect the First Amendment when it needs protecting. This isn't one of those times. We're not saying those artists/companies can't say what they want. But if you want free speech, you have to be willing to accept the social consequences of said speech. Freedom of speech simply means that you may express yourself without government punishment. It doesn't mean that you can express yourself and no one can disagree with you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Exactly, nightmist. If we were lobbying the government to criminalize this type of music, we would be promoting censorship. Expressing one's discontent with a company or institution does not mean we condone censorship; it simply means we disapprove of their hateful messages. Speaking out against this type of stuff is hardly analogous to censorship; rather, it is taking advantage of our first amendment right to voice an opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Actually, if expressing discontent with a company for promoting hate is censorship, isn't expressing discontent with that expression of discontent also censorship?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Exactly, nightmist. If we were lobbying the government to criminalize this type of music, we would be promoting censorship. Expressing one's discontent with a company or institution does not mean we condone censorship; it simply means we disapprove of their hateful messages. Speaking out against this type of stuff is hardly analogous to censorship; rather, it is taking advantage of our first amendment right to voice an opinion.
I agree. We're not trying to get even; we just want people to think about what they're saying/selling/whatever. And, strange as it may seem, I kind of like Eminem. Yeah, he's homophobic, misogynist, yadda...but he's damn honest. That's what I like foremost in music. Honest lyrics that don't fall into stereotyped crap.
"Female men's activist" is not an oxymoron.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
But what's the point of freedom of speech, if every time someone says something that other people disagree with, those other people just try and drown it out? Virtually no views get voiced, and those that do are bland boring crap that offends absolutely no one.
'Hate' is a subjective term, and the promotion of hate, as I assume you're all accusing certain artists of here is also subjective. So, I renew my question: if someone believes that the local Men's Studies program is promoting hate, should that person try and shut it down?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
As I said in an earlier post, an artist is free to write and publish whatever they want. And a college can offer whatever classes they want. And you're right, Dz, the market should decide. But I'm part of the market just like the feminists among the Country Music Association that allowed "Goodbye Earl" to compete in two consecutive years for the same award, an extremely irregular situation.
I'm generally not a conspiracy theorist, but I'm convinced that the media has an ideological bent that biases what they publish. And so, while I don't believe in censorship, I DO believe that my compliants to the Program Managers at the radio stations and the record company executives are nothing more than my contribution to market forces. Pro-male messages are many times interpreted as anti-woman, and so the feminists act to censor them. So I feel no remorse in my campaign to stop anti-male messages at the distribution end. When it's clear to me that the media has abandoned their bias and eliminated THEIR censorship, I will abandon mine.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Evidently the music industry mongels (probably manicured asshole males!!!) believe there is a big bucks market out there for this blatantly hateful misandric garbage.
This is just the "wakeup call" for society that females might not always be assumed to be "sugar and spice and everything nice."
There are many sicko dysfunctional maso/sadistic women and young girls running around and this music medium is just their voice.
Too bad the cesspool US judicial system is the main enabler for them to act out their perversions.
It is a sick and sorry state of affairs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
In the long run the best way of tackling the kind of glossy manhating crap produced by B-randy, Destiny's Dogs and various other arse-waggling pop-tarts will be to mock it. After all, you've got a young woman, or a bunch of young women, still south of 25 years old, with a record contract, media attention, videos on MTV, and CDs in every popular music outlet, whining on about how she's such a survivor and so strong because she's managed to live beyond the end of her relationship with her last boyfriend! Am I the only one who finds that really pathetic? A survivor is someone who's been through something really terrible, some life-changing event that might have floored most other people forever. The people who came out of Nazi concentration camps were survivors. People who got out of the Hindemburg alive were survivors. The men who came back from the jungles of Vietnam were survivors. Some egotistical young woman who's just split with her boyfriend? P-lease!
I know Eminen has already been mentioned as an example of anti-women sentiments in popular music, but at least the guy has a sense of humour and he limits most of his anti-female vitriol to his ex-wife and his mother. I always smile at the line "Feminist women love Eminem" in 'The Real Slim Shady'; it's a nice bit of gentle mockery. Personally I prefer Henry Rollins to the likes of Eminem, and he makes most other artists look like a joke. If B-randy and Destiny's Dogs are still around in twenty years time they still won't have a tenth of that guy's credibility.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know, it's interesting. I just saw this video last night. The lyrics weren't that bad, save for one line that said that her ex boyfriend wasn't anything without her. (men's value comes from women, eh?) The offensive part was the pile of men she stood on, the men chained to posts beside her, and the man she knocked around with a baseball bat in some zero-G environment that didn't affect her. She took his sunglasses from him when he passed by, floating aimlessly. Let me say that last part again....she knocked a guy around with what looked like a baseball bat, and then stole his sunglasses. Hmmmm.
And I have to point out that, while I turned the video off after a bit, I didn't see any white men. In fact, the two men who were chained up were painted to be pitch black, not just the brown skin tone associated with more pigmentation.
I have to think that Brandy, who is fairly young, rich, and currently teen-media powerful, has probably made some poor choices in boyfriends, heard stories from her friends, and had to deal with some rough stuff. I also have to think that the lyrics and the images didn't go together very well. The lyrics weren't violent or hateful. A bit angry and hurt, but not violent or hateful. The images, however, were nothing but. But I doubt that Brandy chose those images herself. More likely, someone out there "directed" the video and introduced the images, promising Brandy that it would boost sales, and quite cleverly making the pitch play up on her pain.
That's not meant to say that it's okay.
But it illustrates a point. That point is that male-bashing and manhating is so ingrained in our western culture that stuff like this isn't really questioned. Videos of this nature SELL MUSIC....to men and women, boys and girls. And people like Brandy are applauded for expressing the "pain that women go through". And everyone eats it up.
Writing the record company is a good start to let them know that you find the images (particularly the beating/stealing) offensive. But writing letters that fly in the face of profit and entrenched culture can, alone, become merely complaining. The we're the whiney mamma's boys (though society's twisted spectacles) and not men doing the same thing that Brandy is doing...expressing the pain felt over a failed relationship.
Has anyone bothered to find out Brandy's reasons for writing the song? Agreeing to the video? DID SHE HAVE A CHOICE? Recording industry contracts are notorious for locking performers into decisions and taking away much of their creative license.
The problem isn't that Brandy is a manhater. I doubt she is. The problem is that she is being represented as such and society is digging it. You can't change that by writing to a record company. You can't change that by writing to MTV. You can START to change it by talking to everyone you know, all the time, about how you feel.
It's certain a relationship has failed here. Brandy seems to have been let down by at least one man. But all men have been let down by society. Brandy has somewhere to turn. Until lately, we haven't. We didn't even know it was an option. That's changing.
Okay, I've blabbed on enough here and feel like I've said almost nothing....again. Sorry I get verbose. It's in my nature.
Credendo Vides
(By believing, one sees)
|
|
|
|
|
[an error occurred while processing this directive]
|
