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Profiling males HAS been mentioned a lot in the news coverage on intercepting terrorists. Usually it is mentioned to silence those who lay out concerns on racial/nationality profiling by asking rhetorically... "Well we should not profile men then?"
This has worked pretty effectively to silence profiling critics because mostly everyone is on the same page wanting to prevent future attacks. I do not find profiling unreasonable. After the Oklahoma City Bombing, very quickly the Islamic terrorist theory was put to rest. Then just as quickly a "profile" was formed of the likely suspects which included: male, young, white, military experience, lower middle class, gun enthusiast, probably visits gun shows, likely involved in white supremacy movement, loner .... etc.
The profile that was developed in the OKC bombing was highly accurate. I do not know how it was formed so quickly but I do know that had McViegh not been found so quickly, basically on a lark, it would have been needed as a tool.
Pretending profiling is not an effective tool in law enforcement is sheer lunacy.
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retending profiling is not an effective tool in law enforcement is sheer lunacy.
You have genuine profiling confused with prejudice profiling. Prejudice profiling is when an individual is stopped or questioned because of his race, sex, or what have you. If the detainees were being detained for "genuine" profiling reasons, they'd have much more reason to be suspcious than the fact that the men are men and of a certain race.
Do you feel comfortable with police officers randomly stopping African American men for questioning when a robbery suspect was reported as being a black man? They don't do it to white men.
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Not to mention that women have and do often help in terrorist acts around the world. They usually go unpunished if caught or a male "counterpart" is blamed for corrupting her.
Women have often been an important part of history but usually in a supportive or behind the scene role. (The women of Hitler, Eleanor Roosevelt just to name a few.) To round up men only is not only discrimination but also potentially dangerous since the most important part of an organization to take out is always the
support personnel.
Finally while some attention has been obviously given to the fact that the "terrorist" profile is men only. It has not been emphasized at all. While we hear a constant flow of media coverage about the "women" victims of the war on Afghanistan once again male victims are pushed away from any serious attention.
Tony H
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Whatever you wish to call it, profiling seems to me to be a process. It didn't end with white, and male in the case of OKC bombing, but it started there, other elements were added. Again, had McVeigh not been caught so quickly a lot of white men would have been looked at, and indeed they were as accomplices were identified using the same technique. At any step along the way, there are enough people who fit the profile at that point who are innocent. If you added "gun show enthusiast" to "white" and "male" you would have a smaller group of individual, but a group who are mostly innocent, still they must be looked at... and new elements added to narrow a search.
I agree the net in the current case seems broad, Middle Eastern men, but I don't doubt that the criteria is more narrow than that by this time even though it had to start somewhere and that somewhere is broader. It would not make sense to not narrow the profile, as all Middle Easter males in the US cannot all be guilty. The investigators know this, and the objective after all is to find terrorists not jail innocents.
As far as you example with the bank robbers, same deal. The investigators cannot "randomly stop African American men" and hope to meet success. There are too many of them. So it makes sense to start with the description and narrow the search, either geographically, by vehicle, clothing, or by many many other criteria as the "profile" is developed. The profile of JUST African American male is only a starting point.
White males are brought in for police questioning when a crime has been reported or suspected of being perpetrated by a white male... same for white female, etc. Not every white male is rounded up which is evidence that that white and male are NOT the only criteria for the search.
Likewise, not every Middle Eastern man in the US is in custody, therefore, the search must be narrower than that. I would guess it is quite a bit narrower than that. Each person must have met additional criteria for investigation. Otherwise the search would be fruitless. A broad search without narrowing would serve no purpose in finding terrorists.
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I pretty much agree with Lorianne on this one. Profiling is a way for focusing limited resources where they are needed most. However, I think that, in order for profiling to be effective AND justified, it must be shown that the 'profilee' met multiple characteristics on a well-validated profile. For example, to me, simply being black or male or Arab is unacceptable. Skin color, sex, or national origin can be ONE of several criteria for deteremining if the profile fits. There have to be several.
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For example, to me, simply being black or male or Arab is unacceptable. Skin color, sex, or national origin can be ONE of several criteria for deteremining if the profile fits. There have to be several.
That was precisely my point.
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The very fact that we are discussing 'profiling' is laughable, except that it's not really funny anymore. Could we as a society get any dumber or bury our heads in the sand any further? Of course profiling shouldn't be based SOLEY on ethnicity or gender. But no one a SOLE factor to size of another individual. If I am in a dark alley and see a bunch of young black guys with baggy falling off their butts' pants and a holdlum walk, I'm gonna get a little nervous. If I see a bunch of white guys on harleys with beards, foul breath and mouths, I'm also gonna get a little nervous. I wouldn't profile because of their gender or race.........I'd profile because I'm not an idiot. Will somebody please erase the word "profiling" from the English dictionary so that we can see it for what it is: Common Sense.
I'm sorry if any of you resemble the above remarks but that's not my problem.
anna
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I'm sorry if any of you resemble the above remarks but that's not my problem.
If anyone here experiences the bigotry of someone judging you by your sex or what you look like, I encourage you to do what I did about it back in college. Here's the essay I wrote about it for MANN back in July:
/articles/01/07/12/0057 213_F.shtml
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by Anonymous User on Saturday December 22, @09:54AM EST (#15)
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Anna, the profiles you have outlined in post #13 do have multiple characteristics: context (location and timing), skin color, dress, and manner of conduct. I count four. And I think it would be entirely justifiable for law enforcement, if on the scene, to "inquire" as to their intent.
Frank H
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Hey, yeah. Why don't we make some laws in this country which require all white men with beards to shave their beards, cut their hair, and not hang out together? Better, why don't we force *all* men to dress exactly the same, clip their hair short, and shave just so women can be *comfortable* with them and law enforcement won't harass them.
Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. I live in a country where I should be able to look how I want without being harassed or pigeonholed.
So, Frank, I have a beard and a ponytail. Should I be questioned and harassed by the police when I'm standing outside a store, waiting on a cab? Or walking through the parking lot where women also happen to be? What if I have a couple of buddies with me who are similar in appearance?
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My problem isn't that profiling exists or that it is done but that it is ignoring the real problem, stopping terrorists. There is an interesting post on another topic that says:
"According to Jane's Intelligence Review, 60% of all suicide attacks occur in Sri Lanka. Interestingly, about 33% of all the suicide bombings in Sri Lanka are executed by women."
Since it is obvious that women too are capable of committing this crime why aren't Arab women being given the same attention by the federal government. My feeling is that women are still seen as morally innocent by society. The attitude seems to be that if we stop these evil men then we don't need to worry about women.
The whole idea buys into the concept of men as being responsible for all the evil in society. Women are ignored as a source of social ills and only seen as victims of violence.
Tony H
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I'll agree to profiling when a police department for the very first time uses profiling agaisnt females. That will not happen, so profiling should not be used.
Greg
the Volksgaren Project: Intelligent Abuse Recovery, http://clix.to/support/, jaxom@amtelecom.net, 519-773-9644
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Speaking of which, has anybody heard of cops gender profiling women when they're looking for a kid killer?
Opinions?
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An Israeli guy on Larry Elder's show a few weeks ago was talking about Israeli airport security and anti-terrorism measures. Among other groups, one subset the Israelis profile is "western women traveling alone." Why is this? He couldn't say. My guess is that the Israelis have found that many Eastern terrorists have Western girlfriends. Perhaps they use them as couriers or messengers.
It's very easy to say that we shouldn't use profiling, but if we don't use it to some extent, criminals will never be caught.
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Claire: It is not that I am saying do not use profiling but when you but when you by default EXCLUDE an entire group from attention based on skin color, gender or religion you are likely to miss a possible criminal.
Remember we are not looking for people who attacked America but are likely too in the future. To exclude women from this group is being gender blind. A similar tactic would be to arrest only black males as crack dealers. This ignores females who deal or any other race that might be guilty. The issue is not that we shouldn't use profiles to limit the search for terrorists or any other criminal but that when a stereotype is used as the basis for the construction of the profile.
Also, the excuse being used for the current round up is "immigration issues." I find it VERY hard to believe that only men are violating immigration laws in the country.
Tony H
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You might be right Claire. I was from Geneva to Tel Aviv of El Al. I was singled out from the beginning and went through numerous rounds of checks in the airport, finally being pulled off the stairway into the plane for a final search.
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Actually, the ACLU has been all over Fox News saying that the profiling was based on ethnicity and gender. They said the two pretty squarely. It pains me to no end to appear supportive of the ACLU in any way as I see them as a bunch of scumbags, but alas they did give equal nonsense to gender and ethnicity issues.
There is another post down below that I'd like to respond to. It mentions women's connection to/support of evil regiems or terrorism. There is some talk going around in my neck of woods, with friends etc, about the Mothers role in societies that hate America. Basically the thought goes that since in these societies, the women have the sole role as care taker (hence influencer) of children until they (they boys) are of age to be taken under their dad's wing. So pretty much they are given license to shape and mold entire polulations and generations. Obviously in many lands the outcome is a lot of hate pent up in a lot of 7 year olds.
I don't really know enough about this topic to really form my own opinion, but nevertheless it is what some of my friens are talking about.
Anna
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