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by Thundercloud on 10:57 AM June 17th, 2006 EST (#1)
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MOTHERS are taken for granted??!!??
I guess these guys have never watched a TV sitcom before. This culture REVERES mothers. And that would be fine if they did the same for fathers but they don't.
Sorry but I never cared much for Dobson, and now I care even less for him. He's just another example of right-wing chivalry.
P.S.
And as usual, before anyone hollers at me and calls me a "Lefty", remember I am an independent. I call the Right wing on their miss-placed chivalry, and I call the Left wing on their out and out misandry.
BOTH are the problem. Who is the worse problem? well, that's a debate for another day.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Roy on 12:02 PM June 17th, 2006 EST (#2)
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I've read, but have no direct experience with, the growing use of the churches as a channel for indoctrinating men into feminist values.
Apparently many ministers have been persuaded to buy into the father/husband-bashing theme.
Did this start with the expired Promise Keepers movement, and then drivel down to local ministries?
The national data on church attendance suggests that going to Sunday Service is fast becoming an all-female conclave. (Men are choosing to cut their church's misandry out of their lives, voicing their opinions through their intentional absence.)
I have no street cred on this issue, because I quit the Church at age 13.
Just after I was admitted to the Faithful.
All I had to do was pass a multiple-choice test!
To be "saved...."
That convinced me that organized religion was a bad investment, and a waste of souls.
P.S. -- T-Cloud, if you believe in Hell, you are already accepted into the fold of Believers! Watch your back bro'!
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by Thundercloud on 12:27 PM June 19th, 2006 EST (#5)
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Thanks, Roy.
Yes, I believe in Heaven and Hell. I am what is called a "Christianised Indian". Although I do still honor Cherokee traditions, including some religious ones, that don't counter Christianity or my belief in Jesus. While I do believe the Earth is literally alive, as my Ancestors did, I don't believe it to be a Deity. And while Christianity seems to say that animals have no souls, I believe that they do have spirits and go SOME place after they die.
All this, indeed, puts me at odds with both My solidly traditional Cherokee people and Christians, at times. Although you will find MANY Cherokees that practice Christianity as well as old ways.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Roy on 10:27 PM June 19th, 2006 EST (#6)
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T-Cloud -- "Yes, I believe in Heaven and Hell."
Well I would not impune your beliefs, because your words are always direct and honest.
I was reading some post recently about a scientist, a professor of cosmology, a guy who's dedicated his life to trying to figure out the origin of the universe and its evolution.
He also is a Christian, and an academic scientist, and has come under attack for his defense of evolution theory from the Intelligent Design folks.
He basically said that he sees evolution as evidence of a Creator and his intelligence, and finds the I.D. argument against complexity as a diminishment of God's greatness.
Just a historical question for you ---
I am curious to know, is there in your understanding any connection between the Ghost Dance phenomenon during the last days of the Indian Wars and native peoples' awareness of Christianity?
Was the Great White Father in Washington a symbol for Jesus or the white god religion in any way?
How much evangelizing for converting to Christianity do you think the Indians during the wars experienced? (It would probably have been part of the "civilizing the savages" ideology.)
(Of course, there's the obvious example of the Indian Schools that transfered (kidnapped?)hundreds of young native children into schools to "civilize" them.)
I guess my question can be asked this way --- was religion used to colonize and defeat Indians?
It's always seemed to me that the Ghost Dance was a kind of desperate last attempt to hang on to the native spiritual belief system, in the face of absolute defeat on the horizon.
There may be contemporary parallels, but I don't want to talk about Congress here...
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by Thundercloud on 02:55 PM June 20th, 2006 EST (#7)
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>"Was religion used to colonize and defeat Indians?"
Yup.
And yes, the Ghost Dance was an attempt to bring back the old ways and make "White people" "go away". No one knows if it would have worked or not as the people doing the Ghost Dance were said to be doing a "war dance"by non-Indian spectators and the Calvary was sent in to put a stop to it.
I don't know a whole lot about the Ghost Dance, that was a Plains Indian thing, I'm Cherokee and we were/are a Woodlands tribe.
But anyway, yes religion was, indeed, used to bring us down. You had Indians that were forced into Christianity by means of the boarding schools and other ways, but you also had Indians (like a lot of my people, the Cherokee) who embraced Christianity with open arms. This often placed Traditional Indians against newly Christianized ones, and you know the old saying; "United we stand divided we fall". That goes for any group of people. And that was quite useful to bring us down. Not to mention that the U.S. government used bad blood between different tribes to cause Indians as a whole to divide even more so.
There were a number of contributing factors that led to our defeat. Christianity was just one out of a number of ways. There was also the Smallpox epidemic that killed thousands upon thousands of Indian people. It is the first time in the history of warfare that biological warfare was used. We were also "starved out". The plains people particularly when the Buffalo were slaughtered to cut the Lakota and other plains nations off from one of their food staples.
And then there was the fact that there were vastly more Whites than Indians, so we were overwhelmed as well, in the end.
That's just a few of the contributing factors.
Sorry, Roy, You didn't ask for an Indian history lesson, just if Christianity was a factor in our defeat. It's the Indian activist in me. you ask for a hand, I'll give you an arm. :-)
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Roy on 10:45 PM June 20th, 2006 EST (#8)
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T-Cloud,
Actually, every time I reply to one of your posts, I trust I will receive "an Indian history lesson."
Even if you are only talking about wussie-poopies!
So, if you could imagine --- BEING Amos Bad Bull Heart, Big Foot, Black Elk, Blood Knife, Calf Trail Woman, Crazy Horse, Dull Knife, Forked Horn, Gall,Gathering His Medicine, Goes Ahead, Half Yellow Face, Iron Hawk, Iron Teeth,, Lame Deer, Lame White Man,, Little Wolf, Low Dog,Noisdy Walking, Red Cloud, Red Horse, Sitting Bull, Standing Bear, Two Moon, White Bull, White Man Runs Him, White Swan, Young Hawk.....
All of these names and voices are on record as witnesses of the Little Big Horn victory.
And yes, they are mostly Lakota.
I have typed them simply because this is a man's web space, and these were all certainly men (and some women warriors) whose names need to be recalled.
(All of these references to specific Indian men and women are from "It's A Good Day To Die.")
If this post has a point at all, it's to recommend that men's right's activists value every voice in the cause.
Native Americans gave each other truly great names.... they defined the essential depth of character and the direction of that person's life.
So, ThunderCloud, based on my trivial posts and deep curiosity to date, what Indian name would you give me?
(This may be my last post!) ;-)
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by Thundercloud on 02:38 PM June 21st, 2006 EST (#9)
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>"What Indian name would you give me?"
That's easy; Gvtli. (pronounced "Gu-tli" or "Ku-tli")
It means "Raccoon". No, I'm serious, here's why:
Raccoons are highly curious and dig deep for what they need and want. Some Raccoons will turn over a rock nearly as big as themselves if they think there is food for them under it. They are experts at finding things. They are intelligent, stubborn and tough fighters. Plus they can adapt very well to their surrounding environment. (Although you're not supposed to feed them, by law) if you do give a Raccoon a bit of food he will often remember you and be a friend for life. (I had a Raccoon as a good friend once. I named her "Shy-eyes" and she would often just sit and hang out in the woods with me. She also let me play with her babies. She unfortunately passed away a few years ago) Also Raccoons see very well in the dark and have a great sense of smell.
Yep, Raccoons are great. Although they sometimes steal things.
Other than that, Raccoon is probably a good name for you, Roy.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by brotherskeeper on 11:54 PM June 17th, 2006 EST (#3)
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In my experience (and I began unconsciously tracking the behaviour of the church on Mother's and Father's days a long time ago) the responses on this thread regarding the church are true. (Full disclosure: committed church attendee/supporter for decades in a conservative church, small government conservative). It has gotten to the point where you hear unequivocal lies from the pulpit on this subject (i.e. the absolutely debunked feminist hate-points that circulate).
Unfortunately, James Dobson is no different in this respect. I, too, have respected him for a long time, but am losing that respect due to his refusal to address this issue honestly. He is nowhere near alone on the conservative end of the spectrum.
The all-time expert on this issue is David Usher. For a masterful tutorial on this issue, see his blog on MND.
BK
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by Roy on 07:49 PM June 18th, 2006 EST (#4)
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Agreed with BK that David R. Usher is an important writer on this topic.
Unfortunately, David does not take kindly to being critiqued or questioned.
He personally banned and deleted my comments from his blog when I asked him some apparently uncomfortable questions about how his pro-marriage advocacy would eventually have to deal with NAFTA and globalism as the real engines of family economic destruction, feminism being just a symptom of the larger scenario.
My e-mails to David seeking a reasoned explanation for his banning of my voice went unanswered.
Well, it's his perogative to become a Stalinist if that's the path he chooses. (He can always just go half-way and become an i-feminist!)
He's a brilliant writer, though apparently somewhat conflicted about explaining his logic.
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