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by Thundercloud on 11:38 AM May 12th, 2006 EST (#1)
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Just to play Devil's advocate, are we SURE these guys are innocent?
Don't get me wrong, My guess is they probably are innocent, and the media is trying them in the press, for sure, but how can we be certain? I don't want to support them and then it turns out they are found guilty. Does anyone have info on the case that I don't have?
Also, if we support these fellas and it turns out they did do what they're accused of it will make our movement less credible, because the Femroids will point to it and say; "See the men's movement is full of misogynists, they supported male rapists", and other junk like that. (TRUST me that IS what they'll say.)
I just want to be as certain as possible that these guys are innocent before I give them any support.
Sorry, that may rub a few of us the wrong way, here, but that's how I feel.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Thundercloud on 01:34 PM May 12th, 2006 EST (#3)
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Thomas- Thank you.
I was just thinking, you know, if these guys do turn out to be innocent (which they likely are), it would give our cause a lot of good ammunition.
Mainly because it will (among other things) put even more light on the fact that the media has a VERY anti-male bias. And that the media is in the pocket of the feminists.
Another nail in the feminist coffin? I hope so.
So I am really hoping these guys are innocent.
I also thought of something else. Kobe Bryant was accused of raping a WHITE WOMAN. Why didn't the media charge HIM with a race crime? I mean Kobe is a "privileged American male", why was there no fuss made in the press then?
And also, When Kennedy was accused of rape why didn't the media play the old; 'well since he's a "privileged White male" he must be guilty until proven innocent' card, then?
I don't know. I used to poo poo the whole "Liberal media" bias claim. But It's seems pretty clear that if your politics are a "certain way" you tend to get by with a lot in the press. I read somewhere that the Duke Lacrosse team and college, as a whole were considered rather "conservative".
So no offence to anyone who's a "Liberal", here, but it just seems like it more and more to me that race, politics and gender all come into consideration as to how the media will report about you. I could be wrong, but I just don't think so.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Roy on 04:07 PM May 12th, 2006 EST (#4)
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It's interesting that the feminist crowd is aggressively stating that the fact that the "victim" is a stripper and a convicted felon is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!
This is the same mentality that is applied by domestic violence feminists who also claim that "women do not ever PROVOKE a man to aggression..."
Obviously the stripper's character and criminal record is a part of the equation, as is the stupid rich-frat-boy mentality of the accused idiots. (They may be acquited of rape, but they are guilty-as-charged for being reckless, overconfident, and braindead college boyz.)
All the mass media commentary is slogged down in the Gender Wars...
"He said, she said..."
A major talk-show DJ in Chicago has suggested that she was raped by her pimp and then ordered to do the frat party to make up for lost income.
Plausible, yes?
Is either Geraldo Riviera, or Barbwa Wawa on the case yet for a prime-time special?
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by DasCoon on 01:07 AM May 13th, 2006 EST (#6)
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"they are guilty-as-charged for being reckless, overconfident, and braindead college boyz."
Do you know any of the players on the team, or in particular the ones charged?
Why assume the worst traits in these men, that is what the media is for not us. These sterotypes are generated to villify men. There is no sense in repeating them, or buying into them.
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by Sheldon on 09:25 AM May 13th, 2006 EST (#7)
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DasCoon------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- ------I Thank you greatly for pointing that out, but I would say that the frat boy mentality is what makes them look like idiots, not due to anything "inherently" male. I would hope that that's what Rob means--although he did seem to imply that men who go to university are "braindead", which only seems to work to baffle--something absolutely not needed--and hit young men in one of the many places where they are already down (re: university enrollment by gender)
Something else about this case: apparently the stripper in question had falsely accused someone before of sexual assault. Her father stated overtly that she had L-I-E-D lied about that. I know it is all still conjecture, but this lends an amount of discredibility to the allegedly assaulted woman if she actually has a history of lying about these matters. And ooof the typical course of action taken by the conventional (that is, ideological feminist dominated) media, her past deceit does not seem to figure-- although it might have; I can't keep track of what all the media outlets are discussing.
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by Roy on 01:22 PM May 13th, 2006 EST (#8)
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DasCoon and Sheldon... your voices are welcome here. What makes MANN unique is that the moderators do not ban opinions or expressions they may disagree with.
I have been exiled from many so-called MRA web sites, just for expressing philosophical differences with the moderators.
Try it! SYG is the easiest place to get banned, given Dr. Evil's narcissistic self-loathing projected as "civility."
I was not too critical of the Duke frat boys.
Nothing I said could be construed as an attack on true masculine nature.
But I am distrubed to think that these privileged young men are so unconscious of the actual PERIL of FEMINISM and have apparently concluded that they are above the law of misandry in this FemAmerica.
They should now be learning much more than what they absorbed in their college classes, now that their mugshots are all over the mediasphere, and they have been convicted before any actual due process has happened.
Every thinking man should pay close attention to this case, because it is a signal of how far feminism has deformed our legal system.
It doesn't help at all that the prosecuting D.A. is a slimeball seeking re-election and he is pandering to his voters.
If the case goes to trial, it surely needs to be be reassigned to another county or state.
This is starting to look like a lynching...
And the Carolinas both south and north are famous historically for that kind of injustice.
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by DasCoon on 11:52 PM May 13th, 2006 EST (#10)
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My point is what exactly have they done that has exhibited a frat boy mentality? Having a party? Getting a stripper? Being on a team? Playing sports?
I just don't understand why people try to attribute negative sterotypes to them. The whole image of a 'frat boy' is nearly completely a media construct, they need to pigeon hole people.
Anyway way, Feminists hate Fraternities, so they can't be all bad can they?
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by Thundercloud on 04:03 AM May 14th, 2006 EST (#12)
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>"Feminists hate Fraternities."
That's for sure.
But notice they have no problem with Sororities. When I went to college the Sororities hired as many male strippers as the Fraternity hired female strippers, and BOTH partied as hard as the other. (And I went to a fairly conservative school.)
Where are these feminists on Sorority behaviour, if they are really for gender equity?
...Oh, that's right they're NOT.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Roy on 11:12 AM May 14th, 2006 EST (#13)
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DasCoon wrote -- "The whole image of a 'frat boy' is nearly completely a media construct..."
Yep.
You are correct to call this out as a prejudiced, sexist, misandrist stereotype.
But like all cliches, it has it's ring of truth.
These boys were dumb.
They underestimated the peril of their game.
Odd because as we all know lacrosse is a very violent and dangerous game. A good one in fact!
The Mayans played it 400 years ago, with the heads of their vanquished enemies as the ball!
This Duke case will end up being about who has better "victim status..."
It is all a part of the glorious Gender Wars circus, brought to you by FemAmerica.Inc.
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by mcc99 on 04:53 PM May 12th, 2006 EST (#5)
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Similar thoughts crossed my mind, too. To me this is not so much about "are they innocent" but "will they, or can they, even get a fair shake?".
Certainly if they are guilty of an actual rape I am all for them being jailed for it. What I don't like is that they are getting pilloried in the media, all the while the evidence supporting the criminal charge just doesn't seem to be there, but nonetheless "The System" has decided that because it is a high-profile case/rape allegation, they must be pursued anyway-- when under many other circumstances they would have dropped the matter. Also, the prosecutor seems to be seriously if not also possibly criminally overreaching both his authority and discretion with regard to the taxi driver he had arrested for a crime he heretofore hadn't been charged with, nor even likely had knowledge of anyway (ie, he was taxiing two women who stole some purses from a store and claims he knew nothing about it; the police at the time believed him, probably because he was telling the truth, and only when this came up does he seem to be getting prosecutorial attention)-- after he didn't tell the state what they wanted to hear.
Something is as they say way rotten in Denmark!
So while I agree that geez yes, these guys could be guilty, and personally I have no solid opinion one way or another, the main issue for me here is about equal access to justice and the reasons why these guys are being so vigorously singled out for this kind of treatment.
Primary reason: they are boys, and that's that.
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by Demonspawn on 05:06 PM May 13th, 2006 EST (#9)
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Actually, there is an easy answer to the question:
They are innocent.
If you have any doubts to that answer, ask when they have been proven guilty in a court of law.
That's really all that needs to be said on that subject, neh?
On the subject of the case itself, I plan to weigh in later. Too much homework at this time.
--Demonspawn
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by Roy on 11:59 PM May 13th, 2006 EST (#11)
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It is indeed an interesting shitstem of injustice when the prosecuting D.A. publicly announces that he "believes a rape has occured..."
When his oathe of office mandates that he observes the Constitutional principle of "innocent until proven guilty."
This man is vermin.
This case is a disease.
Feminism is the cause and effect of both.
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by Luek on 11:25 AM May 14th, 2006 EST (#14)
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White on black rape is statistically non-existant.
And as we all have learned on this forum the instances of false rape accusations are rampant today and actually encouraged by our feminist agenda driven and misandric legal system.
So just by the present social dynamics concerning the political crime of rape there is much to point to the innocense and even persecution of the defendants.
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