|
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
|
 |
|
|
|
by Davidadelong on 01:59 PM January 12th, 2006 EST (#1)
|
|
|
|
|
So, the Men in Japan are getting smarter. Perhaps it is because that they live in a more restrictive society than we do that they are getting smarter than U.S. Males? No matter why, it is good to see! I have heard many Women complain that there isn't any good Men out there right here in the U.S. Something having to do with a lack of desire to work ones self to death, and I believe also a desire to be treated as a Human Being. Where will the divisionary elite go to divide and conquer when Men and Women ever do unite? I don't believe that there are enough ignorant People out there to buy into the old bigotry that has been just about used up. At least I hope so anyway.........
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Thundercloud on 02:47 PM January 12th, 2006 EST (#2)
|
|
|
|
|
Yeah, Yeah. Whenever women are unhappy it's always MEN'S fault. It couldn't be that women are becoming spoiled, protected, coddled, narcissistic little brats, could it?
Ladies, As an old Cherokee spiritualist I have learned that, regardless of who you are, if you want to see the TRUE cause of personal misery, one usually needs to look no further than the nearest mirror. Again, this is REGARDLESS of WHO or WHAT you are.
The sooner you American, British, Canadian (and now) Japanese women learn this, the happier you will start to be. But until you do, you are just going to keep being miserable and keep blaming men for your shortcomings. A vicious circle, indeed. But a circle that women have created themselves. And as always when they do things like that, they want men to fix it for them.
gals, you're increasingly nuts, You drive us crazy, go away...
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Roy on 05:36 PM January 12th, 2006 EST (#3)
|
|
|
|
|
I'm fascinated by what's going on in Japan in terms of the gender wars, especially since Japan has never had a reputation as a bastion of radical feminism.
The ongoing reports show a nation in domestic turmoil...
There's the plummeting marriage rate and parallel severe decline in the birth rate. (Without creating more Japanese children, there can be no continuation of Japanese culture.)
Other studies suggest that young Japanese women would rather go shopping with their girlfriends than go on a date with a man; at the same time, young men would rather hang out with their buddies and drink heavily and play electronic games or go to a strip club.
Young men's fathers, who grew up in the era of the "salaryman" with lifetime employment in one company, are now retiring after decades of severe workaholism.
What greets these weary wage-slaves returning to the homes that their sacrifice has made possible?
Angry wives who are pissed off that their husbands are now actually at home instead of working 70-hour weeks!
How can one make sense of this, in a land where the heroic role models for men were once the samurai?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by dudejo on 08:59 AM January 13th, 2006 EST (#7)
|
|
|
|
|
i've read a weblog where an american works in Japan as part of an english teaching program.
he too says the japanese workforce is encouraged to work without ANY vacation.
no weekends, no holidays (exceptions MAY apply), nothing!
according to what i know of japan's path of life, college is ironically the easiest part of their life.
because apparently the entrance exams are harder than what they actually teach.
and if i trust the web log author's opinion about the quality of japanese doctors, it shows.
i think he said something about doctor only specializing in one limb at a time.
or prescribing the wrong things...or failing to diagnose tumors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Marc A. on 07:19 PM January 12th, 2006 EST (#4)
|
|
|
|
|
As much as I hate the author's bias and ignorance, I had to laugh when I read this. I love the simple honesty of the Japanese guy who complained that girls are a hassle because: "I have to call. I have to buy them gifts, which cost money." I'm still laughing. I agree with the others; nice to see japanese men fighting back in their own way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by mcc99 on 08:51 PM January 12th, 2006 EST (#5)
|
|
|
|
|
Ten years ago, I lived for six months in Japan and worked at a Japanese company in Kyoto. It was part of a grad school program.
It was for many reasons perhaps the single most important learning experience of my life. I could write a book but so many others already have it'd be redundant. To stick to the subject, I can say I have seen this phenom. in action. Most of the men in the section in my company were unmarried and seemed little-interested in dating. Unlike in times past, while there was some dating or marriage among men and women ("tea ladies" or others) in the company, it had fallen off dramatically (and this is Kyoto I am talking about, a very conservative city by Japanese standards), or so I was told by coworkers who said that dating among the salarymen and tea ladies was much less common than it used to be.
Part of what I am sure is happening here is simply this: the realization that there are wayyyy too many people living in Japan. It is possible to plough up and cement-over an entire large island from sea to sea. This is what has happened over there. Miles and miles and miles of cemented-over land. It's like how I imagined things must have looked in the mind of the Isaac Asimov when he wrote about the planet that served as the capital of the galaxy in The Foundation Trilogy - it was covered entirely in four layers of metal structure housing the imperial bureaucracy.
True, some land is set aside for farming (they are able to grow all their own rice, no longer needing imports from the US and China, though they get rice from other places anyway), and also they have nature preserves set aside. But it is nothing like what the US has for open space. You just have to see it to believe it.
Psychologically as well as practially in terms of money and lifestyle, then, having an LTR and esp. one that leads to one or more children is really an overwhelming burden. The financial aspects themselves are enough to drive anyone in Japan (or here for that matter!) away from the prospect, but then add the collapsing relationship system and the impending 2007 divorce law that will truck 1/2 of the old man's money over to the "poor innocent wife" on demand... it's a no-brainer, as they say. If I were a Japanese man, I'd do what they were doing: stick to work and racy comics. :)
Oh yeah, work-- let me just say that there is something incredibly seductive about the work environment in Japan. There is this very strong, compelling force that keeps Japanese men working as they do, it is very subtle but very strong. The comradeship and sense of mutual tasking creates very strong bonds of fraternal affection among Japanese men that at times made even me, an American guy not much into the idea of working day and night like they did, feel like I would, if asked (as it was given my non-Japanese-ness, they said it was OK if I left earlier than the rest - 8:00 PM or so was fine!). So the work culture is also a very strong compelling force and that has to be considered as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Roy on 09:15 PM January 12th, 2006 EST (#6)
|
|
|
|
|
Very excellent "anthropology" mcc99!
I would not dismiss that non-fiction book you have within you to write.
But here's my initial question ---
What did you observe in your time in Japan that would shed some insight into how Japanese women and men related to each other?
And, if you dare, what would that suggest for any American man pondering a venture into "asian-female-as-wife" territory?
At the very least, you should write a screenplay.
It sounds like a more Gen X,Y,Z version of "Lost in Translation."
Hollywood scale to option a screenplay is now $50,000 a year... just to consider whether it's a movie.
Really. Write it!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Roger on 09:37 AM January 13th, 2006 EST (#8)
|
|
|
|
|
Hi everyone, this is my first post here.
I first went to Japan in 1973, have spent a good deal of time there since, am married to a Japanese, and teach the Japanese language at a university. During those 32 years, I've observed a sea change in gender relations in Japan. Both the author of the article and mcc99 are correct in pointing out that, compared to what we're used to in the States, men an women tend to inhabit different social spheres in Japan. What I've seen change, especially over the past decade or so, is the appearance of an American-style sense both of victimhood and entitlement among Japanese women. We only get Japanese television in our home, and I've watched more than a few of the "home dramas" that are the stuff of primetime broadcasting. Since the viewership is primarily female, these programs are a good barometere of how Japanese women view gender relations. The older reruns still highlight a lot of traditional "feminine" virtues, but the more recent ones are full of unflattering caricatures of males, and are driven by a sense of petty grievance ("the only reason I can't realize my dreams is that selfish males keep getting in the way"). The toxic influence of American feminisim is making itself felt over there, too.
But having said that, I should add that I still don't sense among most Japanese women the snarling, coiled-ready-to-strike animus toward men that is all too common in American women. We spent some time over there last spring, staying part of that time with my sife's relatives, and that was one of the first things that struck me. Sure, men and women tend to move in different circles, but I don't sense the incessant sniping there that I do here. Japanese women often criticize men, but they usually do so in specific terms, for what the do or don't do, NOT for simply being men, as is all too common among American feminists ("You MAN, you!").
Sorry that my first post here has turned into a disjointed rant.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Thundercloud on 10:11 AM January 13th, 2006 EST (#9)
|
|
|
|
|
>"disjointed rant."
Hey, that's how I introduced myself, too, when I first posted here 4 years ago.
We're allowed to rant here, so don't feel bad, Roger.
In fact, welcome aboard!
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Roy on 09:42 PM January 15th, 2006 EST (#31)
|
|
|
|
|
Extremely good stuff from all posters with some direct experience in Japan!
I wonder if the traditional "separate spheres" for men and women, and their unravelling today, might be part of what's stressing out the genders in Nippon?
From what I've read, Japanese men rule at work and women are with few exceptions marginal to the corporate world.
As a social counterpoint, women rule at home, and control family finances.
Now Japan is experiencing the arrival of western-style feminism, and the traditional codes are falling apart.
I once advised a lovely Japanese university student, an unmarried 30 year-old master's degree candidate in advertising. (Her father was No. 2 at Isuzu Motor Corp. and she was hoping for a slot in the company's marketing department.)
Just before she left, master's degree in hand, to return to Japan, she told me --- "I am so afraid that when I go back, I will lose my identity."
"I do not fit in any longer --- either in Japan, or in the States. In Japan, I am too old to be unmarried, and my parents will have already selected my husband for me. In the States, I am just an asian bimbo looking for an American husband and citizenship."
I should probably e-mail her and find out what happened, but I really don't want to know....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by ASDJKL on 03:37 PM January 13th, 2006 EST (#13)
|
|
|
|
|
With them having no room and mortgages frequently 100 years notes, I am not surprised their men don't want to get married.
Riding the train was akin to cramming as many people as possible into a sardine can and then seriously moving bodies just to get out when you needed too.
The roadways were always backed up and frequent trips to the airports took alot more time than they should have and patience and perseverence.
On top of all of the above, earthquakes as frequently as coffee breaks who wants to live that lifestyle?
All in all though very polite, nice people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Davidadelong on 09:23 AM January 14th, 2006 EST (#20)
|
|
|
|
|
"it's a no-brainer, as they say....stick to work and racy comics.:)" Of course, you have just been manipulated into being the most productive wage slave possible! They have done with administrative law that which they failed to do with whips and physical torture. You really have to give it to them, they are not dumb, but it did take them many years to perfect their craft! By the way, Japan is following a model "given to them" by the U.S. after WW11, a deal made by the corporations of Japan, the greed mongors. As a commodity early death by stress through living an unatural life is an acceptable loss. Just look at how hard they work before they die! Makes me sick! "It is a good day to die!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Thundercloud on 12:59 PM January 13th, 2006 EST (#10)
|
|
|
|
|
What the hell does that mean? "Spank the Bishop"??
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
by Thundercloud on 02:18 PM January 13th, 2006 EST (#12)
|
|
|
|
|
>"Masturbate"
...I had to ask...,
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Clancy
(chermanstovall@msn.com)
on 05:15 PM January 13th, 2006 EST (#14)
|
|
|
|
|
You know, yank the crank, a tussle with Russel the love muscle, jerkin' the gerkin, spankin' the monkey, polish the knob, have a date with Rosie Palmer and her 5 sisters, lopin' the mule, whuppin' the horse, takin' ole one eye to the optometrist. Hmmm, I think that last one refers to something else. I wonder if hand cream and vibrator sales have gone up in Japan? Inquiring minds want to know.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Dittohd on 05:46 PM January 13th, 2006 EST (#15)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Is this guy an expert on the subject or what?
I find it really hard to believe that this whole problem in Japan is men's fault and has nothing to do with women.
I peruse Oriental single women dating sites fairly often and have pretty much stopped looking at the Japanese women as possibilities. Japanese women almost never talk about love or romance or marriage. All I ever see from them (99% of the time) is that they are looking for a "friend" or pen pal or someone to help them practice English or help them learn about other countries because they love to travel.
I think that the Japanese women are equally (or mostly?) to blame for any existing problems and this article is just women trying to blame everything on and manipulate men in one way or another.
I guess they have learned that nothing is ever their fault... just like American women.
Dittohd
All anonymous postings on my screen are filtered. To talk with or debate me, a user ID is now required. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Dittohd on 12:28 PM January 14th, 2006 EST (#22)
|
|
|
|
|
|
>Dittohd, you're not reading between the lines!
You could be right being that we're dealing with women and a lot of them expect us to read their minds, but this is how I got screwed the first time around. I thought things would continue as the mariage progressed, getting better as we went along and my wife figured I would change as I got older (my "love" drive would lessen). I guess we were both reading between the lines and I haven't been happy for years and years.
As a man, I prefer being direct wherever possible rather than beating around the bush and can't stand it when my wife expects me to expand her words into sentences that mean something or changing what she says into what she really means, because often I'm wrong and it makes communication more work than enjoyment.
If all women were like this, I guess I wouldn't have a choice but apparently there are women out there in other countries who also put a high priority on physical and emotional love, like I do. A lot more than I can handle and I figure that if I stick to these women, I have a better than even chance of not running into this problem again. I surmise that most women (or at least a large number) will want to talk about their highest priorities and leave the lower priorities more to chance. If they're being deceptive, I hope through my age and experience I can see through it and read the tea leaves better this time. I readily admit I was a lot more naive when I was in my 20's than I am now and didn't heed some signs I should have. Love is also very blind which is a problem I won't be so susceptible to this time, I hope!
A long time ago we were discussing this subject on this site and I asked if anyone found that Japanese women were different than my impression of them to date (had really good experiences with them long term) and I got no replies.
Based on my experience now in reading personals, based on what I'm looking for, I find the Filipina, Chinese, and Thai women the most attractive, in that order.
Have your experiences with Japanese women been different? How much experience have you had? Are you Japanese (considering your user name)? Do you speak Japanese fluently?
Dittohd
All anonymous postings on my screen are filtered. To talk with or debate me, a user ID is now required. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Davidadelong on 08:18 PM January 13th, 2006 EST (#17)
|
|
|
|
|
Thundercloud Sir, you have isolated yourself haven't you? I got a hell of a laugh out of this one!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Thundercloud on 03:58 PM January 14th, 2006 EST (#24)
|
|
|
|
|
I didn't used to be so isolated. But Yeah, I'm pretty much a recluse.
Glad you found it funny.
What? Am I a clown? Do I amuse you? (kidding around) :-)
Actually, though, I still don't get the "Bishop" connection.
Well..., I'm an idiot..., :-p
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Thundercloud on 04:00 PM January 14th, 2006 EST (#25)
|
|
|
|
|
...I signed my post twice.
My God I AM a clown...!
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Davidadelong on 09:00 PM January 14th, 2006 EST (#29)
|
|
|
|
|
I don't think so! I hollared at the wrong Person this morning, now that was dumb. I was so embarrassed, at least the wrong Guy read my apoligy! The guy I was "hollaring" at got me a little flustered, hence my anticipation at retaliation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Clancy
(chermanstovall@msn.com)
on 06:30 PM January 14th, 2006 EST (#27)
|
|
|
|
|
TC, since I am the resident expert, if you are familiar with the Staunton (traditional) style of chess piece, the Bishop has been likened to a phallic symbol. And for the record, I would never disrespect you. My neolithic sense of humor is often more prone to entertain only me and ellicit eye rolls from those within ear shot.
(I submitted this post before Thomas so it was I who wanted to spill the beans about the chess connection - but it never appeared. I know, Thomas is saying "says you!". My luck, it will show up as a double post. Thomas, you have elevated yourself into the expert realm with your disclosure.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Thundercloud on 09:40 AM January 18th, 2006 EST (#34)
|
|
|
|
|
I'm not.
That's why I had to ask! :-P
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by mens_issues on 07:02 PM January 13th, 2006 EST (#16)
|
|
|
|
|
I wouldn't advise "spanking the bishop" as it may get one thrown out of church.
Although Japan is more Buddhist and they probably don't have many bishops, so there may be fewer opportunities to get in trouble this way.
Smartass Steve
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Davidadelong on 08:23 PM January 13th, 2006 EST (#18)
|
|
|
|
|
I am 51, and it has been a long time since I heard that one! But, I really did enjoy the conversation that it generated, it was humorous! A little levity doesn't hurt on occasion, no?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
by Wilf on 09:31 AM January 14th, 2006 EST (#21)
|
|
|
|
|
Unlike the all-too prevalent whiney conservative MRAs who pine for traditional male and female roles, who aren't satisfied to stay focused on equal rights, and who must tell others how to live their lives; Japanese men have a more intelligent way: they quietly, but decisively avoid entering into relationships, as these have become prohibitively expensive, time-consuming and not worth the effort. And they have the dignity not to look back, dissipating their energies with bitter recriminations; instead they pursue their interests and make something of themselves. Learn from their stellar example.
|
|
|
|
|
[an error occurred while processing this directive]
|
This