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by Anonymous User on 02:38 PM August 23rd, 2005 EST (#1)
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The key to reforming VAWA, as the RADAR alert notes, is to make sure that the final bill includes unambiguous language that MANDATES funding for male DV victim services. Anything less is a defeat.
The current language allows for the disqualification of gender-neutrality if the "context unequivocally" requires it.
This is nothing other than a way of saying that the specific grant applications for funding, administered through the DOJ's Office for Violence Against Women, will determine how the billions are actually awarded.
Do you really believe that the OVAW will change its habits even if the bill's language is reformed?
They have refused to comply with the Civil Rights Act which forbids discrimination based on GENDER for any federally-funded programs!
If VAWA legislation is actually written as gender-neutral, with real teeth, the next challenge will be to monitor whether the feminist DV bureaucracy will actually observe the law, or, as is typical, use female "victim power" to subvert and prevail.
(Roy)
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by Anonymous User on 12:37 PM August 24th, 2005 EST (#2)
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There is no way that we even want to claim that we would support a gender inclusive VAWA. This is just plain ignorant.
The new VAWA creates family monitoring centers. These centers will have the express goal of monitoring and regulating ALL family interactions. It is a new 100 billion dollar creation, and yes they will get the money if we in any way support a gender neutral VAWA.
You guys have to be real nutcases to even suggest supporting this act. You do not understand what this thing really says.
For example, with the new VAWA mandatory reporters will take incidences like a female reporting to a doctor with bruising. Then the mandatory reporters will be required by law to state that there was injury.
One real scenario is that the woman tripped in a hard floor hallway and hit her head. Then upon reporting to an emergency room a doctor logged a report into the local family services database as required by VAWA.
Another scenario is that a woman is a pre-school teacher and is bruised by a child. She forgets about the bruise and goes into a routing medical examination. The doctor is a mandated reporter. Therefore, he logs a report to the local VAWA created family regulator center. The information goes into a permanent database thanks to the new gender-neutral VAWA.
Now later, thanks to the new and improved VAWA, the information will be permanently logged into a database. Then ten years go by. The wife/domestic partner is having a menopause episode and the police are called. They consult the database at the local family regulation center. There they find reports of bruising.
Guess what. This law that you say you will support if it is gender neutral now kicks in.
What happens when they learn of the logs of bruising that were reported by the emergency room and the doctor? The man is judged a probable primary aggressor and he goes to jail.
Kiss your precious gender-neutral language goodbye. It won't make a damn bit of difference.
YOU GUYS ARE PLAIN STUPID!
READ THE DAMN ACT AND STOP SUPPORTING IT BY ASKING FOR GENDER NEUTRAL LEGISLATION.
Warble
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by Anonymous User on 07:10 PM August 24th, 2005 EST (#3)
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More tedious extremism by an armchair MRA.
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by Rand T. on 12:23 AM August 25th, 2005 EST (#6)
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More tedious red herring by a feminist troll unable to refute an argument. Whassa matter, darling? So scared to lose female privileges?
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by Anonymous User on 07:10 PM August 24th, 2005 EST (#4)
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I would have no problems with Warble’s call to arms to defeat VAWA’s reauthorization if in fact that were a possibility. At this point in time, due to the cowardice of the mostly male members of Congress, it is not a viable strategy.
That VAWA 2005 intends even greater intrusiveness into private family life is beyond dispute.
The "mandated reporter" provisions are nothing less than gender-fascism in action; as are additional proposed programs to target Native American men and yet others that seek to indoctrinate boys in elementary school about their evil patriarchal natures as oppressors, rapists, and batterers.
But consider that it is possible that making VAWA gender-neutral with mandated funding apportionment could produce a resource stream for promoting new ways of understanding family conflict, and could as well open up the field to non-feminist researchers and practitioners to create a movement for real reform.
There are a lot of objective researchers and DV treatment counselors who are fed up with the tyranny of Duluth Model P.C. feminism, and if VAWA was mandated to provide the funding, then the silencing of alternative voices by the rad-fems would quickly unravel.
It may be useful to make a distinction between the reality/complexity of family conflict and the truly inadequate and arguably disastrous responses that have been imposed through a radical feminist bureaucracy.
There is a real and critical need to find better ways of understanding and responding to domestic violence. (Just getting beyond twenty years of hysterical language would be a huge start.)
A gender-neutral VAWA with actual provisions for accountability could begin the tough work of dismantling the feminist DV Gulag incrementally, which is the only politically viable option.
If this goal could be accomplished faster, through the votes of our elected representatives and the immediate demise of VAWA, I would be 100% for that solution.
But I recognize that fantasies are most useful when they can be achieved.
(Roy)
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by Anonymous User on 10:58 AM August 25th, 2005 EST (#8)
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Okay. Show me where there is no mention of a database for logging data on any case that is reported no matter what the circumstance. The language is there.
Show me where there is no creation of family justice centers that will monitor the activities of family interactions. The language is there.
Show me where there are no mandated reporters and that this is a figment of my imagination, or that the reports will not be logged into a database for the express purpose of allowing the police to make judgments about who they are going to define as a primary aggressor and arrest that person. And yes, we all know that will be the man in 95% of the cases because that is what they are instructed to do by the government funded Marxist-Feminists.
The language is most certainly in the VAWA.
Hummmm…..This poo-poohing is most certainly the signature of that ass-hole Hugo or some other like minded Marxist-Feminist.
What is really sad is that the general public and most women are so brainwashed by Marxist-Feminists lies that they CANNOT believe that there will be hidden and secret reports logged about them by their doctors, schools, councilors, and anybody else defined to be a mandated reporter.
They actually believe this hidden network of communist reporters is a fabrication!
What an ignorant idiot. Take time to read ass-hole.
Warble
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by Anonymous User on 02:40 PM August 25th, 2005 EST (#11)
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"Show me where there is no creation of family justice centers that will monitor the activities of family interactions. The language is there.
Show me where there are no mandated reporters and that this is a figment of my imagination, or that the reports will not be logged into a database for the express purpose of allowing the police to make judgments about who they are going to define as a primary aggressor and arrest that person. And yes, we all know that will be the man in 95% of the cases because that is what they are instructed to do by the government funded Marxist-Feminists.
The language is most certainly in the VAWA."
As long as there is free speech, honest, decent people like the National Coalition of Free Men will be there to stand against the lies of VAWA and the gender feminists --- as they did --- Protesting this Domestic Violence Gala
I am told that someone was sneaking around during this protest photographing faces trying to intimidate these good Americans who were legally exercising their free speech rights. Who knows what data base those photos may have wound up in? Such is the nature of the Stalinist fems in the d.v. world, and ignorant, toady law enforcement that cozies up to them.
Ray
FEMINIST TRAINED COPS, PROSECUTORS, AND JUDGES LACK INTEGRITY
FEMINIST TRAINED COPS, PROSECUTORS, AND JUDGES ARE TRAINED BY BIGOTS TO BE BIGOTS
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by Anonymous User on 08:10 PM August 25th, 2005 EST (#12)
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Nice Ray.
Glad to see Taron is spreading the word about the connection between paternity fraud and severe emotional abuse.
I've never met a woman who has committed paternity fraud that did not severely abuse her children.
Funny how the Marxist-Feminists at NOW and ACUL are fully aware of that fact and have done nothing to protect the children. We were very careful to document that fact and pound it into their heads. They know!
That includes the DCSS communist leaders and many of the socialist libs. Ironically, many Republicans fall in that category.
They are all fully aware of the connection between paternity fraud and child abuse. They cannot say they were not told and that it was never proven to them. Yet, they all scrambled to protect the women from criminal prosecution. Typical.
It was a horror to observe the actual level at which communism has seized control of our government. The day is coming when the public will rebel. They will find that all of their property and rights have been seized. It will happen later in our lives, but I believe we will witness the outcome.
Warble
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by Anonymous User on 11:27 AM August 25th, 2005 EST (#9)
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Roy argues, "...But consider that it is possible that making VAWA gender-neutral with mandated funding apportionment could produce a resource stream for promoting new ways of understanding family conflict, and could as well open up the field to non-feminist researchers and practitioners to create a movement for real reform.
There are a lot of objective researchers and DV treatment counselors who are fed up with the tyranny of Duluth Model P.C. feminism, and if VAWA was mandated to provide the funding, then the silencing of alternative voices by the rad-fems would quickly unravel...."
None of these arguments presented by Roy, though will intentioned, matters. Making the language gender-neutral will not result is any more un-biased studies that will lead to sanity in our DV systems. We already have unbiased studies.
There are a couple of reasons these arguments don’t matter. The first is that men are increasingly defined as primary aggressors due to their physical size and strength. Second, there is going to be the creation of a massive National database that will record every female bruise that is noted by a mandated reporter. Third, there is language that will require doctors to become more indoctrinated on the Marxist-Feminist view of DV. That will increase the logging of data, and the level of reporting to the secret DV database will increase. Remember. This data will be permanent. It will never go away. It won’t matter if it is logged correctly.
Bottom line. Supporting a multi-billion dollar increase in a Marxist-Feminist inspired system of regulation and monitoring WILL lead to more intrusion.
Roy, you are in effect arguing in favor of a communist like intrusion into the family by a government regulated/funded family justice center that will monitor every domestic interaction.
The result is insanity. It is pure wishful thinking to rationalize that somehow such an expansion of government power and regulation would lead to sanity in the application of DV law.
Hell. Here is an example of how this socialist regulation works in California.
Assume that you want to even do a simple thing like launch a (very small) model rocket. This simple act now requires the following:
1) You need to have a license or have a licensed rocket certified rocket pyrotechnic operator launch the rocket for you.
2) If you want the license, you must go to Northern California (Sacramento) and take a test. The fee is about $87 dollars.
3) You must get permission from the local fire marshal in writing.
4) You must have written permission from the landowner.
5) In many instances, you may be required to have a one million dollar insurance policy.
6) You must use a motor manufactured and approved by a state sanctioned manufacturer. For those of us that know about making rocket motors we know the absurdity this requirement. That also requires another license from the state, fire marshal, and BATF.
7) You must notify the FAA and flight get clearance.
The list goes on and on.....
It is now almost impossible to enjoy the simple hobby of model rocketry.
Hell. Now we even have homeland security getting lists of customers from local hobby shops of individuals that have purchased model rocket kits and motors! Do you really think that homeland security won’t peek at that secret government run DV database? Think again.
For those of us who remember the pleasure of throwing that switch, hearing the whoosh, and feeling the thrill of that rocket going strait up or blowing-up it is pure absurdity to have the government telling you that you cannot launch your own model rocket without such massive government intrusion.
This is what Roy is being tricked into endorsing in the DV arena. It's a different group of people, doctors, non-government organizations, and government organizations. However, the intent is the same. All of them want control over you and your family.
Roy, in my opinion, has in effect given-up and surrendered to the communists.
Warble
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by Anonymous User on 01:30 PM August 25th, 2005 EST (#10)
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Warble (when not excoriating me for being an idiot or a communist .... by the way, W. you would see that as redundant, right? So we do agree on something... ) wrote --
"Roy, you are in effect arguing in favor of a communist like intrusion into the family by a government regulated/funded family justice center that will monitor every domestic interaction."
Actually, what I am arguing is that the nightmare gender-fascist bureaucracy that you describe already exists, it is well funded and very confident of its future expansion.
That confidence derives in no small part from having no federally funded competition and locking out any non-radical feminist players.
And, your citations from the actual VAWA bills in the Senate and House are accurate. (Yeah I've read them, printed them, and highlighted the most offensive sections. Three highlighters worth!)
The intent to "expand and enhance" government databases is clear. One might suggest that VAWA's proposed spying is merely a surrogate minor act made possible by The Patriot Act.
In fact, your points support my own view that since all the draconian sexist DV laws are already in place, the police and judges have been brought to heel; that VAWA 2005 has shifted more towards a Psy-Ops strategy based on surveillance, co-opting the "helping professions" (doctors, therapists, etc.), and indoctrinating our youth.
At no point in my remarks have I endorsed VAWA.
My basic points are that a massive tyranny already exists, it cannot be wished away, it is a political creation, and it can be UN-created only through political/social reform.
Warble, the one element missing from your thesis is any practical suggestion for ACTION to overturn VAWA and it's now decade-old apparatus of gender discrimination.
The bills will either pass or fail, with no reforms or modest reforms.
This is a logical outcome of the political cowardice of those elites who get to vote on this legislation, and who, lacking a few hundred thousand marching up Pennsylvania Avenue, will conclude that their votes are best cast in their own self-interests.
How would you prevent, subvert, or significantly change this outcome?
How would you make your ideal world appear?
(Roy)
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by Anonymous User on 08:54 PM August 25th, 2005 EST (#13)
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Roy writes, "...At no point in my remarks have I endorsed VAWA...."
Thanks for the clarification. I agree that we are on the same side of the issue.
Ordinarily, I would agree that we should seek compromise and seek to get gender-equality. Your reasoning is sound and in line with democratic principles.
However, in this case I believe that the Marxist-Feminist were fully aware that we would seek the provision of gender-equality. So, they created extensive new language to counter any such compromise. They are quite brilliant. I did the same thing in Sacramento when fighting paternity fraud. That is how I know they have already planned for our opposition and inserted language to defeat any of our compromises.
They out smarted us long before the bill was even drafted.
For that reason, I strongly believe that we should oppose this bill outright. I believe that we should oppose the N.H. Commission for Men in their objective to have this bill made gender neutral. They are ignorant and simply wrong.
Roy also asks two questions and they are, "How would you prevent, subvert, or significantly change this outcome?
How would you make your ideal world appear? "
I believe that we need funds to hire licensed private investigators to get dirt on our members of the legislature that support the VAWA 2005. Then we need to have them reported to the police for DV violations no matter how slight. They should be in jail. They need to find out what their law actually means to the public.
However, as you point out the people and funds are absent.
So, at this time we need to outright oppose the bill with the stated reasons. We should not support the bill in any form until it is reworded to only prosecute actual physical batterers, provide gender equality, and protect actual victims. There is no way that we are even close to that ideal, nor will principles of instrumentalism work.
This bill is so radical and far reaching that it isn’t even incremental in its approach. It represents a massive radical change to how family interactions will be managed and regulated. I’m literally dumbfounded that the Republicans like Hatch are even thinking of supporting this bill. They have got to be literally outright blinded by Satan, bribed, or perhaps they are being black mailed. It is that corrupt.
Trying to get the bill to be gender neutral is a good ideal, but it is an obvious trap. By saying we want it to be gender neutral makes MRA's appear to support VAWA 2005 so long as the politicians make a minor change to the legal language.
No way. We should not even consider supporting this bill so long as they are talking about these massive incursions into our family lives and the massive broadening of the definition of domestic violence.
Notice how both the Reps and Dems are supporting this massive communist agenda. They have clearly not read the bill and they have no idea what is being proposed. It is without question the most deceptive language I’ve ever seen.
Notice also the push for a liberal or moderate justice to the Supreme Court. There is no way a conservative would consider this bill constitutional because of the massive seizure of power over the family. The constitution specifically reserves the power over families to the states. If they can get a moderate to rule in favor of this expanded version then it is all over. Forget about gender-equality. That will disappear with the term dominant aggressor and the massive new databases.
When we tell the legislature about what is being proposed they blow us off. That is because of the billions being used to fund the NGO's and the Government organizations that get money. Part of it is clearly being used to indirectly bribe the politicians (IMHO).
How deep this goes nobody knows. It would literally cost over 100 million to conduct such an investigation. Forget about the government investigating itself. It ain’t gonna happen! We do know that only groups that get lots of money were permitted to appear at the Committee of Judiciary hearings. That can only happen if there is massive indirect bribery taking place.
Clearly, all non-government funded groups were excluded from the debate. Any meetings with MRA’s are token meetings or they are meeting with the few honest politicians that are left who want to help.
That fact clearly suggests massive indirect bribery from the VAWA funds. By that, I mean that these groups are meeting privately with the legislators and giving them bennies to their family members and friends if they support VAWA.
They are also being told outright lies in private. We know that. We have seen this going on for decades. If we were to meet with them in private then they would deny all of this corruption. They would demand that we prove such allegations. Well we don’t have the funds to prove this fact.
We should still send the letters, we should still lobby them, we should still point out what is wrong, but we should not compromise. Making a compromise signals support for VAWA 2005.
When the time comes, if they take this too far then America will have to make a choice.
Currently, they have chosen socialism and Marxist-Feminism. That is the power of the vote. We have no choice but to live with that fact.
If the corruption becomes too great and the public rebels then we may have a civil war.
For now, I don't see a civil war happening. America has instead chosen socialism and Marxist-Feminist family law.
We are best to oppose bills like VAWA 2005 rather than accept compromise, which will signal to the politicians that we support VAWA 2005 in the compromised form. They need to know that MRA's outright oppose them even if there is compromise. Nothing less is acceptable because it will not send the right message.
B.T.W. With the deep division in place in America civil war is not unthinkable. If the depening of these divisions continues (that is the trend) then we will have blood in the streets. It has happened in this country before.
Warble
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by Anonymous User on 09:29 PM August 25th, 2005 EST (#14)
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Warble wrote --
"We are best to oppose bills like VAWA 2005 rather than accept compromise, which will signal to the politicians that we support VAWA 2005 in the compromised form. They need to know that MRA's outright oppose them even if there is compromise. Nothing less is acceptable because it will not send the right message."
I appreciate that you are now thinking strategically.
But, with respect, you do not understand the mentality of the average elected U.S. representative.
You seem to feel that sending them a strong pro-MRA message (by what? not proposing alternatives to VAWA reform?) that VAWA will be terminated through some magical process.
The VAWA bills are what they are. They can be modified. They cannot be erased. They cannot be defeated.
Have you ever bargained with a whore?
Their principles at not an issue... merely the price. (Your average Congressperson....)
MRA's at this present moment do not have the bank to prevail.
I truly admire your radical idealism, but I've lived too many years to fall prey again to fantasies.
Have you yet stated your game plan, or did I miss it?
(Roy)
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by Anonymous User on 10:23 AM August 26th, 2005 EST (#15)
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Roy asks, "..Have you yet stated your game plan, or did I miss it? "
It is simple. Monitor every legislator, member of the judiciary, law enforcement officer, and elite in power.
When they even slightly commit an infraction call the police and report them.
For example, if a male legislator in any way is holding a female child and touches here in a private area call the police and report them. Also call social services.
Or in the case of DV, if a male swears at his wife then 911 them.
If they are in an office and an MRA observes a male even so much as raising their voice at a female report it to the police.
Over load the system with reports against any leader in power.
Circulate lists (privately) of their addresses.
Make them feel the sting of their own damn laws.
Secondly, outright oppose VAWA 2005 with reasonable language that only addresses real and actual DV.
Demand that the name be changed as a condition of support to HAVA (Humans Against Violence Act) or some such gender neutral name.
Don't give in till all demands are met.
That is my plan.
I can assure you that I am carrying this plan out in Southern California. I do report any parking lot voilence, for example, where a woman in any way assaults a man. That especially includes the common kick to the groin.
Overload...overload....overload....
Sting....sting....sting....
Make the elite and the femal public feel the full sting of their Marxist-Feminists laws.
Every MRA should be using this strategy.
The phone calls do add up. The police know me and hate having me report DV.
Warning: The Marxist-Feminists will seek to retaliate with false accusations like stalking, verbal abuse, harassment, etc. Be ready.
Now, if these strategies fail then at the least the public will continue to become more divided. People do talk. Word spreads. Urban legends develop. Play on those.
This is hardball. It is war. The Marxist-Feminists are not playing fair. All of the rules of fair play should be ignored.
It is like trying to win a fight against a bully. If you fight fair, you'll most likely loose. Fight dirty. Forget about all of this honesty crap except where it counts.
Warble
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by Anonymous User on 02:23 PM August 26th, 2005 EST (#16)
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The hallmark of extremism is the violation of moral rules to follow some ideal. Warble advocates some fantastic scheme whereby third parties to perceived abuse will force the legislature to become accountable to MRAs. It's a beautiful fantasy, but it's paranoid and unworkable. You need help.
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by Luek on 11:45 PM August 24th, 2005 EST (#5)
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I have let my legislators, both state and Federal know that the issues that are my prime concern are men's rights issues.
I have let them know that I really don't care about Iraq, or how many damn Kurds Saddamn Hussain had supposedly gassed. Nor do I care about those never ending line of education bills or that ever elusive tax break I have heard about for years.
The main thing I will be looking at when election time comes around is how they voted on men's rights issues such as VAWA and paternity fraud.
Other political issues have become irrelevant in my life; only restoring my civil rights as a male member of this so called free and equal society is what I am TOTALLY focused on. And my legislators now know it.
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by Anonymous User on 05:12 AM August 25th, 2005 EST (#7)
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[an error occurred while processing this directive]
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The thousands of letters, faxes, phone calls, and personal visits we've been making are beginning to work. Our lobbyists in Washington say the doors are beginning to swing open, and our message is being heard more sympathetically.