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... what happened on December 7, 1941? It's not that I have trouble with the concept. I just think that the date is poorly selected and this purpose is likely to be ignored. Whether we like it or not, the overwhelming majority of people killed on that day were MEN, and other men who are proud of their service to their country are not exactly going to jump on the bandwagon here.
Sometimes, I think we go out of our way to shoot ourselves in the foot.
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The date of Dec 7 is not well chosen but Vincent's heart is in the right place. The health and safety problems that directly affect males are significant. I wish more people took them seriously. Like they do for women and girls.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday December 04, @11:15PM EST (#3)
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I agree. December 7 isn't a good day because of its history, but I think that Henry should be commended for making the effort and at least thinking of different ways that we can communicate OUR issues.
In fact, I LIKED the December 7 date, because both can easily be linked to "male sacrifice". I think linking to Dec 7 is a POSITIVE, not a negative.
In any case, I think Frank is being a little too harsh in his assessment.
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It's not that I'm being harsh. It's just that if you want your 'celebration' to be widely recognized, it would be better if you picked a date that's not already recognized as something else.
In fact, I think it's a GREAT idea. I just wish there was a better date. The male sacrifice thing, to me, might be a non-starter because the moment you start to talk about male sacrifice in wartime, you instantly have the military women jumping up and demanding "What about the women who died?" It's annoying and insulting, given the relative magnitude of the sacrifice, but you can't silence them.
Look, if there's a consensus on this, then I'll buy into it. And it's significant to me because myself and four other guys in my community have started something called Do This For Your Father, Inc., a non-profit devoted to fundraising and public education on mens health issues. So we'll be getting this 'event' on our calendar when it emerges.
I didn't do the math. But is there some way to justify Dec 6 or 8? Or is ther another time during the year when it makes sense?
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I wasn't particularly concerned with making it a widely noticed celebration but something for those in the Men's movement to notice. The date could easily be anywhere in the first week of December - it depends on how you do the math. I based it on mens life expectancy stats from Canada. Basically it comes out to around 23-27 days a year so the date could be anywhere in there. Maybe we could take one of the short months like Feb. and use it to symbolize how many fewer days a year we have.
I did not mean to offend anyone by encroaching on the memory of Dec. 7. I should have thought more before I posted. :)
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P.S. I would also be interested to hear more about the organization you and your friends started. I have been talking to some of my friends about starting a men's group of some sort and they have shown some interest, expecially after I show them stories about how men are getting a raw deal in the courts and workplace. Perhaps you could tell us what is involved in becoming a non-profit and maybe how often you meet etc.
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Henry, send your email address to 'fhujber at hotmail dot com'. There's not a lot to share right now, but I'll share what there is.
Please put "[MANN]" in the header so it doesn't pass for spam.
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The date is not important.
1) It will change as the difference in average age at death changes. (I predict the difference will continue to fall, but that is besides the point.)
2) Dec. 7th will be replaced by Sept. 11th. Sorry about that old-timers. It hasn't happened yet.
However, I am blown away by this idea. It is fantastic. I see Dec 6/7/8 as the opening day of a national holiday. Men are expected to take-off... symbolically die... leave their families and let their families imagine what role, if any, Daddy plays in their lives.
However..., having said that..., I see that it drives a wedge between men and their families, something that I hesitate to support.
What acts could men commit between Dec 6/7/8 and January 1 that would symbolize their premature deaths?
Regardless of the details, I think this is a truly inspired idea.
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by Anonymous User on Friday December 05, @11:03PM EST (#6)
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The math doesn't quite work for Lincoln's Birthday, Feb. 12th, but that would be a great date if it did. We have Lincoln's face on a flyer, and below it, it says, "The 1st Presidential Victim of Domestic Violence." There are other men whose birthdays would be good I'm sure, but I like his.
It also happens to be two days before V-Day. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Feb. 12th as a day for remembering male victims, and also having a men's rights celebration. Although Dec 7th is a good day to point out men's sacrifices, there are still veterans around who might not like other causes encroaching on the memories associated with that date. It might feel exploitive to them and their families. Lincoln and his era are more distant, and no one can't say that the civil war doesn't underscore how strife in this world is paid for primarily in male lives.
Two days later the feminists can celebrate V-day to their hearts content, and emphasize how one woman's life is worth a thousand male lives (as evidenced by the funding they get from our gov't for their bogus domestic violence claims).
Ray
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Sorry, guys, this one bores me to death. I see it as a tactic with no strategy that it supports and no goal. The issues involved are way too complex to paint the situation as one of simple male victimhood - in the mold of the orgy of man-hating that goes on every year on the anniversary of the "Montreal Massacre". If men want to live longer, they can quit smoking, drink less alcohol, and eat 5 servings of fruits and vegetables per day.
To me, it is the quality of the years and how they are spent far more than the simple gross number. A college buddy of mine gets about 4 hours per week for himself. The rest of the time is spent making money to support his wife and daughter, or otherwise pandering to their needs. He has always majorly envied me for my freedom. I took more than 6 years off from the "support wimminsanchillun" rat race to do what *I* wanted to do.
During that 6+ years, I lived 28 weeks for every week he lived. I had 7x16 hours per week to spend as I chose, he had 4. I'll round down to 26 to make the calculations easy - every 2 weeks, I lived one of his years. I passed his "age 65" before thanksgiving of my first year of "early retirement". That still leaves me almost 6 years on him. If I died TODAY, and he lived until age 71, I have still outlived him. Every additional year I live, puts his goal line out one year. If I live 10 more years, he has to live to age 81 in order to outlive me. 15 years - 86. 20 years - 91.
IF the date chosen was Dec 6, and the strategy was to tactically have something to throw back in women's faces when they try to play the universal victim game because one lone nutcase killed a bunch of girls (as in "14 women killed? Well, every year MILLIONS of men die before their female counterparts!!!!") I might buy a T-shirt and wear it. But, the millions who die every year before AGE 40 in Africa from AIDS don't convince me that there is much which can be done systemically to change the entire picture, and the men who spend a few less years in a nursing home as a near vegetable than their ex-wives don't either.
And I support men's rights, imagine what a waste of time and energy this would be on the likes of a Tom Sylvester.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday December 07, @01:19PM EST (#12)
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"If men want to live longer, they can quit smoking, drink less alcohol, and eat 5 servings of fruits and vegetables per day."
Always good advice, but as the feminists say, "DON'T BLAME THE VICTIM!
Men are 76% of homicides, 99.9% of combat deaths, 94% of work place deaths, 75% of suicides. Should we just tell me to stop killing themselves or should we address the deplorable conditions that are causing so many male suicides?
There are 31 women's commissions in CA and none for men. Thanks to there sexist advocacy there are a number of services that are available to them, that are not available to men. Take the simple case that an L.A. judge has ruled it is O.K. to ignore men's constitutional right to equal protection if they seek help at a domestic violence shelter after being battered - JUST BECAUSE THERE MEN. He ruled that CA law says that it is O.K. to give special privileges to women, and deny those same privileges to men. It is through this kind of judicial activism, hate mongering that the quality and quantity of men's lives are being shortened, and I say it is time for this kind of judicial hate mongering to stop.
If men want to live longer they can just stand up against this kind of judicial tyranny. Easier said than done, when you live under the Stalinist Femicratic police state known as California.
Ray
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