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by Anonymous User on Saturday May 24, @03:08PM EST (#1)
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The researchers found that over the decade, the discourses become increasingly anti-girl/anti-women and that other themes such as divorce, fathers' custody of children, boys' suicide and loss of male identity appear. There is more direct criticism of policies that protect the rights of women. This lead the researchers to study other areas of the masculinist discourses, beyond school success by gender.
The research report examines the economic environment that fuelled the masculinist discourse, its structure and content. Factual data are then provided to contrast the masculinist discourse and to demonstrate its biases and limitations. It examines the discourse's impact on women and women's groups, and makes recommendations for public policy.
Recommendations include increased monitoring of Internet sites and possible legal action with respect to hate propaganda on the Internet, that women's groups develop and disseminate through the Internet positive, egalitarian messages to counter this discourse, that they form a network of experts in fields on which the masculinists are focusing. They also suggest that whenever possible, the release of gendered data be accompanied by contextual analyses.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday May 24, @03:44PM EST (#2)
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"Recommendations include increased monitoring of Internet sites and possible legal action with respect to hate propaganda on the Internet"
Like the SCUM manifesto? Who decides what is hate and what is honest criticism of female privilege and negative attributes? Talk about the kettle calling the pot black. What a bunch of hypocritical control freaks. This is worrisome. So it looks like mens rights is bordering on hate speach folks.
I need some wine.
Aaron
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Whew, they're serious, aren't they? Canadian men, aren't you proud to know your taxes are paying for this?
I note they include NOCIRC (run by a woman) and NOHARMM in their list of "hate sites." Nice to have that clarified: opposition to the sexual torture and mutilation of baby boys is "hate."
I dunno, maybe it's better just to have this stuff out in the open. Perhaps in the end feminism will do us this service: give them enough rope (and public funding) and they'll show the world just what the unrestrained female character is like.
On the other hand, as I was driving home this afternoon I saw something heartwarming: young man driving a Toyota pickup, young woman sitting beside him with her arm around him. They gave every indication of enjoying their afternoon together. An archetypal picture. Maybe we'll outlive this insanity after all.
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I found this particularly interesting....
"The proposed solutions also frequently mention fathers, insinuating that the mother's model is not enough"
insinuating? From the articles I have read they do not insinuate, they actually state that the mother's model is not enough.
And through out the parts I read (it was very hard going) there were all these quotes!
The 'Masculinist' apporach...etc
Hows about the 'Feminist approach' and the rise of 'Pro Womens Groups', perhaps we need to monitor the these 'Womens' groups and their modus operandi. (coz they seem to be able to get away with outrageous remarks - how do they do it?)
This really is perverse. To claim to want equlity and then to be 'shocked' that men's groups actually 'use' the same methods, oh my...
First they laughed.....
Then they became angry...
Then we won
(inaccurate part quote)
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by Anonymous User on Saturday May 24, @06:29PM EST (#5)
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It has to be a good sign if the femnazis are getting worried by sites like this.
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Yes, this is good, the feminist chauvinist pigs are beginning to be scared....at last, the trend is reversing.....
I've read parts of their report, it's very interesting but also very confusing because they wrote it as though they really wanted to achieving equality. There are no misandrist attacks in it, just the statement that masculists are lying about reality....what hypocritical freaks feminists are....and if they intend to sue some "hate masculist sites", what about "hate feminist sites" like those with the SCUM Manifesto or "gynarchy" or "matriarch" ? I will say that these radical feminist sites are the ones to be sued first......
By the way, we must not forget that feminists in Canada are very scared because this seems to remind them of the famous Marc Lepine who shot 14 feminists dead in 1989 in Montreal before committing suicide. They obviously think that every masculist is a blood-thirsty person waiting to exterminate feminists....what a nonsense. This kind of feeling exists among feminists, not among masculists. At the moment anyway. But if our basic rights are not acknowledged in the coming years/decades, it will be time to consider more radical means to achieve gender equality.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday May 24, @08:00PM EST (#8)
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Excellent stuff. Keep up the pressure chaps, they're cracking big time.
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Well, we can't go around killing feminists or using physical means of intimidation. But we can defend ourselves with due force, and we can use legal mechanisms against them.
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As I said on an earlier thread, I've already seen this on ifeminist. A person came onto the forum... posted a hateful piece of work by Andrea Dworkin, then proceeded to threaten legal action when she was flamed for the troll she was.
I think feminist LOVE the idea of censorship of thought, and the internet has provided others with an open forum free of feminist forms of censorship. They're scared and looking for a way to stop this sharing of information. It appears that they're going to attempt legal intimidation to achieve the level of censorship that PC and screechfests have accomplished on campus.
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I think feminist LOVE the idea of censorship of thought, and the internet has provided others with an open forum free of feminist forms of censorship. They're scared and looking for a way to stop this sharing of information. It appears that they're going to attempt legal intimidation to achieve the level of censorship that PC and screechfests have accomplished on campus.
This is exactly what is taking place. They see politically correct organizations like Mens Health Network and thy have the gall to list them as a hate group simply because it has the work men in the title.
The fact of the matter is that they are going on the offensive because they see the men's groups informally organizing to address specific men's issues in California and other states. In Ca we have the men's issues coalition (MIC). Trust me. They are TERRIFIED OF US for no good reason and trying to pull every possible dirty trick possible. They lie, they spread hate, they try to pass illegal laws, and they seek to practice oppression behind the scenes with their contacts in the judiciary.
In addition, they call all of the media outlets, tell lies about each and every member of the MIC and they use their contacts to suppress coverage in the national media.
Make no mistake. They know the Internet is dangerous to them because they cannot pull these dirty tricks short of filing lawsuits. They will not be satisfied until they can control the very thoughts of men. I advise being very careful about naming any specific feminist organization or individual. We will be going over our site to make certain that we are not listing any rad-fem organizations to prevent them from suing us.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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This is exactly what is taking place. They see politically correct organizations like Mens Health Network and thy have the gall to list them as a hate group simply because it has the work men in the title.
This attack on the Men's Health network can fairly be called disgusting and totally intolerant. Note the attempt to suggest--entirely without evidence and against their purported adherence to strict methodological principle--that organizations such as the Men's Health Network are associated with the most unsavory of Internet users, including right-wing extremists, and others I would prefer not to mention.
I advise being very careful about naming any specific feminist organization or individual. We will be going over our site to make certain that we are not listing any rad-fem organizations to prevent them from suing us.
Of course, men's activists should be as legally sophisticated and responsible as possible. Since NCFM--one of the sites listed in the pantheon of purported anti-feminist hate-mongering organizations--membership includes lawyers, some legal advice to masculists would be welcome, especially in the wake of this call to legal arms by ideological feminists.
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This would be helpful... especially with regards to online discourse. In the exampl I cited, a woman came to the ifeminist forum using an anonymous alias (no registration is even required over there) and posted a particularly nasty article. Sure "troll sign" as I like to call it. When we all shared our opinion with her that she was pretty much an idiot, she pulled out the "legal action" BS and was banned. Now it appears she's coming back using other aliases and continuing to post (or a friend of hers).
I know there are a few on her who don't agree with some of Wendy's positions, but even so I think she's a strong friend in the battle for true equality.
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Of course, men's activists should be as legally sophisticated and responsible as possible. Since NCFM--one of the sites listed in the pantheon of purported anti-feminist hate-mongering organizations--membership includes lawyers, some legal advice to masculists would be welcome, especially in the wake of this call to legal arms by ideological feminists.
While I cannot give legal advice as an attorney I can tell you what my attorney's have told me. The rules are pretty basic.
- Never use the name of an organization when talking about rad-fems. Doing so can subject to to liable of product.
- Never lie about a person.
- Always make certain to state that your position is an opinion.
- If quoting a person then cite them and do not misrepresent their statement. There is a higher standard for quoting an individual that is in the public eye. They must prove malice if they want to sue you. If the person is not public then leave them alone. They don't have to prove malice.
- Be aware that rad-fems will sue for any reason just to wear down the opposition.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Warble
Quoting Warble
"Be aware that rad-fems will sue for any reason just to wear down the opposition"
Westcoast2....
If this is the case, then surely if an organization appears to have acted illegally it is important to name that organization and express an opinion on this. If an organization is acting illegally then thier sueing will be ineffective. (Libel equates to an inaccurate statement doesn't it?).
Of course your advise is sound, though if followed absolutely would enable organizations to continue to espouse untruths, illegal positions etc with impunity.
(btw my suggestion on monitoring organisations was about learning how we can present our case as effectively as they do, rather than naming them in any particular instance. Providing links to sites with alternative views is useful and could be provided without comment. It may be seen 'in the interests of fairness' to do so)
Thanks to A.J for the proper Ghandi quote.
Finally....
Whenever I write, it is to express my own opinion.
All attempts at humour are purely aribtrary.
I do not understand what 'Liable of product' is.
Sometimes I forget to wear my glasses and misread something.....
Dave
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If this is the case, then surely if an organization appears to have acted illegally it is important to name that organization and express an opinion on this. If an organization is acting illegally then thier sueing will be ineffective.
There are always ways to name an organization indirectly without directly referencing a characterization, making a statement, or characterizing them. Just let the reader make the judgment on their own.
I do this by quoting people, organizations, or whatever. However, I try to avoid value statements about them and keep the quotes or referances to a minimum.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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There has been and is organized monitoring by female elitists of internet speech for the purpose of economic and other forms of retaliation against inidividuals and groups who oppose or whom they suspect of opposing their illegal,discriminatory, and oppressive agenda. I was the prime "whistle blower" in the "Phen-Fen" litigation case in which I complained to the "Trust" (the legal organization hadeling the settlement of claims) that there was the possibility of fraud in the echocardiogram procedures by certain law firms.(The law firms would make hundreds of thousands of dollars for each claimant who matched certain criteria so the motive for fraud was trenchant.) The trust lawyers asked me to sign an affidavit with regard to the same. I did the same. The opposition (those law firms accused of fraud) asked me to attend a deposition in Philadelphia with regard to the same. At the deposition, the opposition attorneys brought up copies of many of my internet posting with regard to men's issues and offered the same as a means of both discrediting my assertions of fraud by their law firms and of asserting that the same proved that I complained because of my asserted dislike of women. It was, also, clearly the case from the questions asked at the deposition, that the many attorneys there thought that a person advocating men's rights should be oppressed economically, legally,politically, and otherwise.(However, my "whistle blowing" actually was extremely beneficial to women as the vast majority of claimants who would be benefited by the same were women). Later discovery by the law firm representing the "Settlement Trust" demonstrated that the echocardiographic fraud by the law firms in question was much more extensive than I imagined. The Federal Court handeling the case ruled that the fraud was in fact present as per the same. Therefore, it was and is clear to me from the same that there are organized groups of female elitists and their legal and other representatives who monitor the internet for speech which they deem politically adverse to their illegal means and ends. The same clearly use their economic and political power to promulgate, as per the above, both covertly and overtly, legally and illegally, retaliatory acts against those whose speech they deem in opposition to their agenda. It has many of the elements of organized criminal activity in my opinion.
C.V. Compton Shaw
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by Anonymous User on Saturday June 28, @06:01AM EST (#58)
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Women's Movements throughout history have all stood on the discarded genitals of men. Its just that women's violence is different and socialized.
Darn, I feel left out as one of the males they plan to watch for possible litigation. See, but don't buy:
http://www.1stBooks.com/Bookview/8682
Dr. Richard L. Matteoli
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by Anonymous User on Saturday May 24, @06:56PM EST (#6)
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At 7:30 EST their site was not available. Why? Maybe they blocked it to mens activism visitors?
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Perhaps the site realized that the researchers broadly libeled "masculist" internet sites as promoting hate speech and violence against women; they certainly had nothing positive to say about the groups they listed, and suggested that the number of "masculist" sites was on the rise, and that these should be monitored for hate speech. This of course suggests that the business of men's activists is the fomenting of anger and violence against women. That's libel in my book.
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This of course suggests that the business of men's activists is the fomenting of anger and violence against women. That's libel in my book.
That is correct. They were most likely (IMHO) liabeling the product of all men's activist and the individuals that were listed.
The men's movement will not tolerate such hate speech and somebody most likely gave them a legal warning. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Wable
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday May 24, @08:12PM EST (#9)
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Here's some technical info about the site for those of you who're technically inclined. I got it at 1:47 AM GMT 5/25 with a linux box, when the site appeared to be down. It seems to me to be badly maintained.
$ host www.swc-cfc.gc.ca
www.swc-cfc.gc.ca A 198.103.98.23
$ whois www.swc-cfc.gc.ca
Status: UNAV
Domain: www.swc-cfc.gc.ca
Code: 01113
Error: 2nd level must be a province or territory code (on,qc,nl,pe,nt,nu,bc,ab,nb,ns,yk,sk,mb)
$ traceroute www.swc-cfc.gc.ca
traceroute to www.swc-cfc.gc.ca (198.103.98.23), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 staddle.nas.com (206.63.100.20) 150 ms 140 ms 130 ms
2 gondolin-fe-0-0-v1.nas.com (206.63.100.1) 140 ms 140 ms 130 ms
3 sl-gw10-sea-5-0-0-TS21.sprintlink.net (144.232.219.25) 150 ms 140 ms 150 ms
4 sl-gw15-sea-3-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.6.113) 140 ms 150 ms 150 ms
5 bpr2-so-7-3-0.SeattleSwitchDesign.cw.net (208.173.50.69) 160 ms 150 ms 150 ms
6 acr2-so-6-0-0.Seattle.cw.net (208.172.81.186) 160 ms 140 ms 150 ms
7 dcr1-loopback.NewYork.cw.net (206.24.194.99) 220 ms 210 ms 220 ms
8 ahr1-pos-0-0.Weehawkennj2.cw.net (206.24.207.34) 220 ms 230 ms 220 ms
9 bx2-newyork83-pos5-0.in.bellnexxia.net (206.108.108.125) 240 ms 210 ms 210 ms
10 core2-newyork83-pos1-1.in.bellnexxia.net (206.108.103.197) 210 ms 200 ms 200 ms
11 core3-montreal02-pos6-3.in.bellnexxia.net (206.108.103.213) 230 ms 220 ms 220 ms
12 core4-toronto63-pos0-3.in.bellnexxia.net (206.108.107.185) 250 ms 280 ms 280 ms
13 core2-toronto63-pos0-2.in.bellnexxia.net (64.230.242.106) 210 ms 330 ms 410 ms
14 core2-ottawa23-pos2-2.in.bellnexxia.net (64.230.229.26) 220 ms 210 ms 220 ms
15 dis10-ottawa23-pos3-0.in.bellnexxia.net (206.108.99.126) 240 ms 240 ms 240 ms
16 64.230.230.242 (64.230.230.242) 250 ms 230 ms 240 ms
17 * * *
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So what are you telling us?
Are the servers down? Or is it a conspiracy to stop people from seeing the site?
It is not the Patriarchy that uses rape to control women, it is Feminism, that uses rape to control women.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday May 24, @11:07PM EST (#16)
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"Are the servers down? Or is it a conspiracy to stop people from seeing the site?"
My guess is yes to both questions. I was on the site earlier today and it displayed a message on the "Contact" page that the server was going to be down for "maintenance". It specified times, unfortunately, I didn't take special notice of them, except I recall that it said it would be down until some time Sunday, their time.
Still, my guess is that it was probably shut down to stop people seeing it in the initial excitement of reaction to its radical expression. They probably didn't expect to get such a big response as they have.
Maybe its been pulled down due to internal government intervention!?
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"Maybe its been pulled down due to internal government intervention!?"
LOL!
And maybe there is gold at the end of the rainbow. :)
Personally I will just be happy if people dont think Im an anti-semite at the moment, because Im not, I love everybody even women.
It is not the Patriarchy that uses rape to control women, it is Feminism, that uses rape to control women.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday May 25, @01:04PM EST (#34)
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Dan, the only ones that could view you as an anti-semite, within reason, would be the pro-zionists, or a feminazi reaching for any possible weapon to use against a perceived threat to feminist hegemony. :-)
Starza
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by Anonymous User on Saturday May 24, @08:23PM EST (#10)
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I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that "hate speech" threatens or intimidates specific individuals.
My take on it is that's it's still OK to vent about public policies, which I believe is our source of power anyway.
Think public policy.
Say how to improve it.
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My thoughts exactly. We're attempting to change matters of public policy that have led to institutionalized discrimination against men. Pointing this out is not hate speech, nor does it amount to violence against women, as these researchers have willfully and maliciously allegded. They have libeled mens groups; perhaps they should hear from our lawyers.
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Still can't open those pages.
But is this development of feminist anti-men's rights activity really any surprise? We should expect it. Remember, the Nazis organized resistence against those who resisted them. We should expect as much from feminists.
They will lose against us. Why? because we're 1) right, 2) not going away, and 3) highly motivated.
Eventually, we'll beat them in this struggle for sane laws, public policies, and rational terms of relating between the sexes. As it is now, we are almost reduced to third-class citizen status in every possible way. Nowhere to go but up, men-- and losing is NOT an option.
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"They will lose against us. Why? because we're 1) right, 2) not going away, and 3) highly motivated. "
The greatest fact here is that we are a 'birth group'and feminism is an ideology.
Feminists are their own worst enemy, mark my words.
It is not the Patriarchy that uses rape to control women, it is Feminism, that uses rape to control women.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday May 25, @12:04AM EST (#17)
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Women commit the majority of child abuse.
Domestic violence is a aobut 50/50.
Many more men are killed by homocide than women, but women have a VAWA. Why not men?
The USA now has the highest criminalization rate in the world. We have now passed Russia. 93% of the prison population is male. A place where rape of men is ignored and rampant. 68% of state prison inmates in 1997 had not completed high school.
Project Innocence has know freed over 120 inmates convicted of rape and murder based on DNA evidence. False accusations and prejudice are but two of the unjust things that put those people in prison and unfairly took years of their lives.
Women are not required to register for Selective Service and cannot be drafted.
Men are 99.99% of combat deaths
94% of industrial deaths
76% of homocides
75% of suicides
It looks to me like the hate campaign of the Pheminuts and the government have been very effective at wiping men out. What do they want complete gendercide? ...or are they just fearing what's going to happen in government when all of this stuff becomes full public knowledge.
The sisters, mothers, daughters and 2nd wives of all the male victims are sick to death of the Pheminuts agenda and if things don't change the people of the Western world will be screaming for justice from every street corner (peacefully of course), but with a burning desire to see the end of the political hate agenda of the Pheminuts and their ilk.
The only reason the Pheminuts think there is a hate agenda against them is because people are outraged at the hate the Pheminuts have used for decades to ruin and destroy innocent humans just because their men. If this group wants to monitor hate they should start by looking in a mirror and then write a history of what they've been doing to men.
Very Truly Yours, Ray
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by Anonymous User on Sunday May 25, @12:50AM EST (#18)
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"If this group wants to monitor hate they should start by looking in a mirror and then write a history of what they've been doing to men."
Couldn't agree more.
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It's naive of ideological feminists to think that thay can oppress men without at least some of men objecting.
How do ideological feminists oppress men? One primary method is their advocacy of the use of force: the laws that ideological feminists helped to create, and that have led to widespread institutionalized discrimination against men and boys, are enforced by the legal justice system. If you don't pay a punitive child support award, you can go to jail. Getting thrown into debtors prison for failure to pay child support doesn't happen as a result of feminine nurturring. The same male hierarchical power structures that ideological feminists pretend to deplore are being directed against men, as a matter of public policy informed by an anti-male agenda.
It's the unjust public policy, informed by the anti-male bigotry of ideological feminists, that that we object to. Saying so is not hate speech. It is anti-injustice speech. The attempt by the researchers to characterize as hate speech intended to incite violence against women the efforts of "masculists" to correct an unbalanced public policy that adversely affects millions of men is intellectually dishonest and is dangerously close to libel.
The implicit threat of these researchers to sue individuals engaged in public discourse over matters of public policy is abhorrent.
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How do ideological feminists oppress men? One primary method is their advocacy of the use of force
BINGO! They can't achieve any of their so-called "egalitarian" social objectives without the use of force.
"Existence exists. A is A." -Ayn Rand
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by Anonymous User on Monday May 26, @12:32PM EST (#52)
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"The same hierarchical power structures....applied against men.."
Exactly. Those who implement anti-men feminist policies are chiefly men who are shackled by the chains of "chivalry".
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"The only reason the Pheminuts think there is a hate agenda against them is because people are outraged at the hate the Pheminuts have used for decades to ruin and destroy innocent humans just because their men. If this group wants to monitor hate they should start by looking in a mirror and then write a history of what they've been doing to men. "
Hate begets hate.
Nobody hates women more than feminists do, Ray.
It is not the Patriarchy that uses rape to control women, it is Feminism, that uses rape to control women.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday May 25, @01:52AM EST (#20)
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For those eager to view the list of associations singled out by the Status of Women, Canada website, I've published the list for general educational purposes at Kitten News. Note that the address below must be used - it is not available through our normal site navigation.
http://www.kittennews.com/kn_extras/CA_statwomen_0 1.htm
John Gardiner
Editor
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by Anonymous User on Sunday May 25, @02:33AM EST (#21)
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Thank you anon.
It is not the Patriarchy that uses rape to control women, it is Feminism, that uses rape to control women.
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"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
- Mahatma Ghandi
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"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
- Mahatma Ghandi
We have reached the point where they are fighting us. And the next stage is...
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"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
- Mahatma Ghandi
Another relevant quote from Mr. Ghandi, "All truth goes through three stages. First ridicule, then violent opposition, and finally acceptance as self-evident."
We've made a few cracks in the media and even in the laws. With every swing we take at it, the wall of ignorance comes that much closer to crumbling, and this is what the femineanderthals fear most of all.
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What would be the real difficulty in creating and maintaining a list of ‘anti-male hate sites’ as a permanent sidebar link? Always a good idea to keep a list of those attempting to oppress you.
One comment about their site: It exudes the quality of governmentally approved bureaucracy, which women love. Seems they know their target audience pretty well.
We could strive to reach our target audience a bit more effectively. I have some ideas on this subject that I will offer in the near future. How does everyone feel about an open forum in which we can discuss this?
Mitchell A. Smith
"An ambiguous perspective is all you can hope for when initially confronted by that which you do not know."
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by Anonymous User on Sunday May 25, @05:33PM EST (#38)
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Personally, I'm very happy with men's websites at the moment. The fact that they are all different is enjoyable. They show independent thinking, personal effort and diversity. Freedom.
I think also, that's why there won't be an organised "men's movement" as such. Men will work together, but in their own way, in their own space. Not in a bureacracy.
Any forum is a good idea. Thanks.
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I like the open, free thought male tendency as well. However, there already is an organized men's movement; this is an organized site, and it is part of the men’s movement.
I am not asking for bureaucracy - I'm asking for ideas on how we can be more effective.
Mitchell A. Smith
"An ambiguous perspective is all you can hope for when initially confronted by that which you do not know."
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by Anonymous User on Sunday May 25, @07:15PM EST (#40)
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Here's a reason: Warble points out the need to minimize the possibility of lawsuits by rad-fems by not naming any radical feminists or feminist organizations in our web sites. A list of anti-male web sites might run counter to this advice--but I'm not a lawyer, so I could be mistaken. On the other hand, the authors of the web article have unwittingly (or deliberately) exposed themselves to lawsuits by naming individuals, such as Warren Farrell, in the portion of their second appendix called "referents".
I find it interesting that they chose to publish this "research" on the web, the medium they wish to associate with "pedophiles" and "pornographers" in connection with men's activists. One would think these pristine intellects would prefer to publish their "findings" in a more "respectable" medium.
Of course, any thoughts on reaching a wider audience are welcome.
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I've not read the entire article yet, but it appears they were very careful not to actually CLAIM that those mens groups listed in the appendix were the "hate groups" referenced in the body.
IMO that article found (in typical feminist fashion) that anyone who didn't agree with them was a "hate group" but avoided actually coming out and pointing at anyone.
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I've not read the entire article yet, but it appears they were very careful not to actually CLAIM that those mens groups listed in the appendix were the "hate groups" referenced in the body.
Apparently--they make the suggestion though. In my opinion, the implication one is supposed to draw is that the organizations listed are connected with an underground network of "pedophiles" and "pornographers" and right-wing extremeists. In contrast to a well-organized piece of sociological literature, in which every citation has an evident reason for its inclusion, and in which every statement contributes to the authors thesis, one is left wondering what exactly the list of men's organizations and individuals was doing in the study. The standards for publictaion in the author's discipline appear abysmally low.
They mention various types of men's organizations and make some very wrongheaded generalizations about them. All masculinists want a return to the nuclear patriarchal family and set back the clock on all gains women have made--absolute nonsense; men's activists want to eliminate institutionalized legal discriminiation against men. The composition of men's rights groups, to the extent these are associated with the political left, is that of men who have failed to adjust to the gains women have made since the women's liberation movement.
The purpose of the study is to discredit men's activists, and to attempt to undermine any claim to legitimacy that men's activists have.
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I found it SOOO appropriate that in Appendix I they made a request for more "feminist research"... right out in the open. IMO "Feminist Research" is biased by it's very name. Before it's even been done the result is a foregone conclusion, and thus of NO use to anyone seeking the TRUTH regarding education inequity.
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I'm somewhat surprised by the choice of excerpts taken below from the article, since there are more telling passages that could have been cited.
Take for example, this attempt to stigmatize sites like this one as hotbeds of anti-female hate:
"A more detailed look at the groups behind the media discourse reveals an extensive network using the Internet to become established and entrenched and express its ideas. We have found a discourse of hate, often violent and unchecked, directed at women and feminists. Far from being an isolated case, this second level of discourse, which could be called "underground" discourse, focusses on the same issues as the public discourse, specifically fathers' rights, but without any of the restraint shown in the public discourse. None of the groups whose sites we visited stated on any of their pages that they did not want to be associated or confused with any other similar group. The resources and referents provided consist mainly of cross-references back and forth across the network. This is one of the peculiar features of the Internet: it enables extremists, racists, supremacists, heterosexists, misogynists, and other individuals and groups from the right and extreme right to openly espouse their opinions without any restrictions. We observed the same phenomenon in a forum held by the newspaper Le Devoir in 1999 on the performance gap between boys and girls in Quebec schools."
The article goes further to suggest that masculist sites (this one is an example) are actively inciting anger and violence against women, and legal action must be taken against them.
The section on research methodology is interesting. The same tools and techniques these researchers use can be used in our own analyses: "The NUD*IST (Non-numerical Unstructured Data Indexing Searching and Theorizing) software was used to conduct a qualitative analysis of article content, which made it possible to classify and code textual and unstructured data. The software also facilitated efficient management of the text, simplified the material classification stage and helped us to formulate explanatory theories."
In their analysis, the French and French Speaking Canada outdo English speakers in the their criticism of feminism. "In terms of criticism of feminism, women or the women's movement, France comes in first place, followed by Francophone Canada. This raises the question of whether certain cultural characteristics are at work in developing the internal logic of these discourses - characteristics that come from the very dynamic of the social relationships between the sexes among Anglo-Saxons or among Francophones of Latin origin, with Quebec being at the crossroads of the two. In France, masculinists are apparently less likely to choose a "poor us" strategy regarding their situation, preferring to criticize feminism and the women's movement."
In their attempt to portray maculists as obdurate patriarchs, they insist that masculists want a return to the traditional family. "Masculinists would definitely like the family to return to traditional values and men to reclaim the position they held in the past." This is absolutely false. If I may pretend to speak for most masculists (certainly for myself), the matter of primary concern to masculists is the reform of institutionalized anti-male bias. The authors of this research article seem to take it for granted that no such bias exists.
Back to the internet, the researchers attempt to stigmatize the men's movement through implied association with "pedophiles" and "pornographers"; naturally these researchers fail to raise the question of whether mainstream media tends to favor feminist viewpoints over masculist perspectives, leaving masculists without much of a voice within the mainstream media.
"Internet Sites
A more thorough examination of the groups feeding the media discourse revealed an extensive Internet network. Using the resources provided on these sites, we found a disturbing, even threatening reality, involving the expression of an often hateful, violent and unrestrained discourse against feminists and women. Far from being an isolated case, this second-level, or perhaps "underground," discourse focusses on the same problems as those mentioned in the media (especially regarding fathers' rights), but without any modicum of restraint. None of the groups state on their Web pages that they do not wish to be associated or confused with any specific group of the same type.
Hate-Mongering
Some masculinist groups use the Internet as a vehicle for hate-mongering against feminists. This accessible and virtually universal medium gives them the opportunity to say and post almost anything. It is no accident that this medium is being used by those on the extreme right, pedophiles and pornographers. It lets them both hide and be found easily. While it is easy to find information on the Internet, it is just as easy to disseminate information, whether it is true or not. Some sites contain not just information but defamatory comments and propaganda inciting fear and hatred. Other sites maintained by men's groups display direct threats to feminists and their allies, and contain vicious comments. The Internet bills itself, as Falquet (1997) mentions, as a "no-rights space." Although the target is feminists, these comments affect all women."
Because of the use of the phrase "it's no accident" in this passage, I'm going to congratulate myself that this is a reply to a comment I made in the NCFM-LA website, which I'll quote from for convenience of the reader:
It's no accident that the rise of interest in the men's movement coincides with the development of the Internet as an alternative communications medium. This site [www.ncfmla.org] is an example; it documents, in neutral, factual terms, that institutionalized discrimination against men is widespread; thanks to the prevalence of tacit, anti-male bias, it continues virtually unnoticed. Attempts to raise general consciousness about it are either suppressed or dismissed as if men justly deserve the problems they currently face as a kind of reparation for aeons of male domination wilfully visited upon females; the ideological climate is such that an unemotional statement of the problem cannot be recognized as having any factual content; the mere act of identifying--let alone resisting--institutionalized discrimination against men must be the work of self-centered "whiners". The problems men face as a class apparently lie outside the admissible spectrum of mainstream opinion, which has been dominated by feminist ideology, despite the predictable, recurrent conventional feminist rhetoric that mainstream media is insufficiently feminist. Since mainstream media has not been receptive (when it isn't openly contemptuous), the men's movement has had to rely on the alternative communications technology of the Internet...
The researchers distort the egalitarian goals of the masculist movement.
"The goals of the masculinist discourse are to regain lost privileges and to stop the women's emancipation movement."
This is false. We can't possibly rely on these researchers for an intellectually honest statement of our very legitimate egalitarian cencerns. The men's movement is concerned with matters of public policy that adversely affect men. What we care about is the institutionalized criminalization of masculinity, and the attempt, by the researchers of the article, to further the agenda of the criminalization of males by threatening legal action against anyone who speaks out against it.
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I was finally able to getto the site by the links provided, and downloaded the whole thing for future study as well. It's like something out of LahLah Land, with the approach being to completely discount ANYthing the Fyminusts have done themselves to bring all this about. It would be a joy to monitor this site, simply for the humor it will provide, but then I won't be whistling in the dark over it either.
Disclaimer: Everything I post is of course my own opinion. If it seems harsh, Feminazis just piss me off!
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I suggest y'all quit panicking, thank Bouchard et al. for the handy list of men's organizations, and get on with networking. I haven't finished reading their paper (it's 150 pages), but it seems they've put a lot of effort into it and there is certain to be a good deal there we can use.
Really, what threat do three Canadian academic femninists (and Francophones at that) pose to the international men's movement? Unless you're specifically inciting murder of identifiable persons or groups of persons, then you have nothing to worry about. Or if you're not in Canada.
cheers,
Tim
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday May 25, @08:53PM EST (#42)
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You Wrote:
"I suggest y'all quit panicking... Really, what threat do three Canadian academic femninists (and Francophones at that) pose to the international men's movement? Unless you're specifically inciting murder of identifiable persons or groups of persons, then you have nothing to worry about. Or if you're not in Canada."
My Reply:
Thanks for adding that perspective. Just today a friend told me he was tired of the media overlooking all the horrible child abuse committed by women against their children, and you guessed it, he's starting a web site to cover all the abuse by women that just seems to fly under the news. It's about time.
I would say that women and these feminists had better watch their own big mouths and violent actions, because their is such a thing as a free press, and the men of the Western world are just fed up so they're going to be shining a big spot light on female malfeasant behavior from now on.
Yes, femi, you've well ventilated your glass house with all the proverbial rocks you've thrown through the glass windows at me and other innocent men, and now you're going to get some badly needed attention given to your bad behavior. Get used to it. It's not a threat. It's just called fair and balanced reporting.
Let Free Men Ring!
Ray
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"he's starting a web site to cover all the abuse by women that just seems to fly under the news."
Can we get a link?
"Its about time."
While I applaud your friend's efforts and look forward to his site it won't be the first on this topic to hit the web. There is one site on the web that does that already, located at http://www.sonic.net/~msnyder/femvio/. Its a great read and the anecdotal tales documented there provide a good counterbalance to the tales of cruel abuses men have committed which do make their way into the media, (referring here more to fully-detailed stories told by victims recounting the horrors of their situation such as on talk shows, who rarely choose to have victims of abuse by women on their shows, than to emotionally void news reports such as the coverage of the Andrea Yates case).
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Who'se panicing? What are you talking about?
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I think pulling all references to feminist organizations from masculist sites, as some here are recommending, is an unnecessary over-reaction.
Seriously, is just mentioning A.A.U.W., N.O.W. or S.C.U.M on a masculist site going to cause the legal sky to fall in? As long as what you say is true, or at least fair comment, any threats you may receive are just hot air. IANAL, of course.
Tim
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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It's useful to know what the current legal opinion is; whether anyone acts on it is another matter. I know from bitter experience that the old saw is true: lawyers don't have friends, they have clients.
The iFeminist site (one whose forum I have managed to avoid--my tolerance for trouble is limited) seems to be subject to legal threats by some of its posters; its owners take these threats seriously. Still, one libelous article isn't the same as a libelous literature, so we probably should wait to see what happens...
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by Anonymous User on Monday May 26, @08:42AM EST (#51)
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This is Rage speaking.
I totally agree with you. I've read large parts of their report and the only thing I see in it is some women panicking because they feel they are losing control.
You are right. It concerns only Canada, only French-speaking people, which hinders their potential ability of attacking the international men's movement, and all they are saying is to become aware of the masculist movement and learning to oppose masculists in debates. That's all, nothing to worry about in my opinion.
Furthermore, they don't know obviously certain things : the Men's Health Network for instance and some of it achievements like the Men's Health Week are supported by federal organizations, with a bill adopted by the Congress in 1994 to implementing Men's Health Week for example. So it has nothing to do with a so-called underground male organization aiming at destroying the feminists.....
Another example : they have listed French organizations dealing with divorce issues specifically , and once again these are not underground organizations as the people involved in them were received by the French Minister of Family a few weeks ago ! (in France there has been a new bill passed last year to reinforce father's rights by forcing the courts to propose as often as possible joint custody of the children after a divorce, and all this thanks to the tremendous efforts of these organizations). These current steps are supported by officials, by the government, and by public opinion, even women, in France. So you see, the poor Canadian feminists can't do nothing but cry about their coming defeat.
By the way, concerning the new law in France favouring fathers, one must know that federal feminists had been asked about the law at the time, and released negative recommendations, exactly like the Canadian ones have just done : recommendations, but not real power. But the assemblymen-and women- rejected their recommendations and had the bill adopted. It's the same thing with these Canadian feminists, they can do nothing against the growing Men's movement, because it's not underground but more and more official and supported by a growing number of officials.
The only thing we must avoid doing is to name feminist organizations or individuals and bashing them in public. Thanks to these Canadian feminists, we know even more than before what to do to reach our goal ! In a way they have warned us and made our task easier to accomplish, because now we know what to do to avoid legal actions against us ! Thank you feminazis ! No man could ever be as stupid as you are.
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by Anonymous User on Monday May 26, @09:10PM EST (#57)
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"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need
not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. He can
beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women... he can
sexually molest his daughters... THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEN IN THE WORLD DO
ONE OR MORE OF THE ABOVE."
Marilyn French (her emphasis)
'My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little
sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the
handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in
his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don't even need to shrug. I
simply don't care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and
yearnings were, simply don't matter."
Marilyn French; The Woman's Room.
"All patriarchists exalt the home and family as sacred, demanding it remain
inviolate from prying eyes. Men want privacy for their violations of
women... All women learn in childhood that women as a sex are men's prey."
Marilyn French
"All men are rapists and that's all they are."
Marilyn French, Author; (later, advisor to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)
"We live, I am trying to say, in an epidemic of male violence against women."
Katha Pollitt.
"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of
violence perpetrated against a woman."
Catherine MacKinnon
"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion
which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot
have it. He's just incapable of it."
Former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan.
"The traditional flowers of courtship are the traditional flowers of the
grave, delivered to the victim before the kill. The cadaver is dressed up
and made up and laid down and ritually violated and consecrated to an
eternity of being used."
Andrea Dworkin
"The media treat male assaults on women like rape, beating, and murder of
wives and female lovers, or male incest with children, as individual
aberrations...obscuring the fact that all male violence toward women is
part of a concerted campaign."
Marilyn French
"Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum
security prison, except for the imminent threat of release."
Germaine Greer.
"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the
experience."
Catherine Comin, Vassar College. Assistant Dean of Students.
"Men renounce whatever they have in common with women so as to experience
no commonality with women; and what is left... is one piece of flesh a few
inches long, the penis. The penis is the man; the man is human; the penis
signifies humanity."
Andrea Dworkin
"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so
another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs."
Catherine MacKinnon (Prominent legal feminist scholar; University of
Michigan, & Yale.)
"Man-hating is everywhere, but everywhere it is twisted and transformed,
disguised, tranquilized, and qualified. It coexists, never peacefully, with
the love, desire, respect, and need women also feel for men. Always
man-hating is shadowed by its milder, more diplomatic and doubtful twin,
ambivalence."
Judith Levine
"Men's sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can
'reach WITHIN women to fuck/construct us from the inside out.' Satan-like,
men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women's own. A
woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, 'even if
she does not feel forced.'
Judith Levine, (explicating comment profiling prevailing misandry.)
'To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo."
Scum Manifesto. (Valerie Solanas)
((Delaney Nickerson, of the American Coalition for ABUSE AWARENESS, refers
to the False Memory Syndrome Foundation as "The Fucking Molesters Society".
(Miami Herald, April 3, 1995) The ACAA is a lobbying group, which includes
Ellen Bass (co-author of THE COURAGE TO HEAL), and Rene Frederickson,
leading feminist psychotherapist and strong proponent of repressed memory
theory.))
((At the STONE ANGELS satanic ritual abuse conference in Thunder Bay in
February, 1995, the following was contained in the handouts at a conference
supported financially by the Ontario Government: FMS stands for: FULL OF
MOSTLY SHIT; FOR MORE SADISM; FELONS, MURDERERS, SCUMBALLS; FREQUENT
MOLESTERS SOCIETY.))
"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness... can be
trained to do most things."
Jilly Cooper, SCUM (Society For Cutting Up Men.)
"Women have their faults / men have only two: / everything they say /
everything they do."
Popular Feminist Graffiti
"I feel what they feel: man-hating, that volatile admixture of pity,
contempt, disgust, envy, alienation, fear, and rage at men. It is hatred
not only for the anonymous man who makes sucking noises on the street, not
only for the rapist or the judge who acquits him, but for what the Greeks
called philo-aphilos, 'hate in love,' for the men women share their lives
with - husbands, lovers, friends, fathers, brothers, sons, coworkers."
Judith Levine, My Enemy, My love
"There are no boundaries between affectionate sex and slavery in (the male)
world. Distinctions between pleasure and danger are academic; the
dirty-laundrylist of 'sex acts'... includes rape, foot binding, fellatio,
intercourse, auto eroticism, incest, anal intercourse, use and production
of pornography, cunnilingus, sexual harassment, and murder."
J. Levine; summarizing comment on the WAS document, (A southern Women's
Writing Collective: Women Against Sex.)
"All men are good for is fucking, and running over with a truck".
Statement made by A University of Maine Feminist Administrator, quoted by
Richard Dinsmore, who brought a successful civil suit against the
University in the amount of $600,000. Richard had protested the quote; was
dismissed thereafter on the grounds of harassment; and responded by
bringing suit against the University. 1995 settlement.
"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his
mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig."
Andrea Dworkin; from her book Ice and Fire .
"Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are
religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure,
accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed
the earth, called it "Her". Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs,
poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any
authentically human imagination.
Andrea Dworkin, Pornography: Men Possessing Women
"On the Left, on the Right, in the Middle; Authors, statesmen, thieves;
so-called humanists and self-declared fascists; the adventurous and the
contemplative, in every realm of male expression and action, violence is
experienced and articulated as love and freedom."
Andrea Dworkin, Pornography: Men Possessing Women.
"I was, in reality, bred by my parents as my father's concubine... What we
take for granted as the stability of family life may well depend on the
sexual slavery of our children. What's more, this is a cynical arrangement
our institutions have colluded to conceal.".
Journalist Sylvia Fraser
"We are taught, encouraged, moulded by and lulled into accepting a range of
false notions about the family. As a source of some of our most profound
experiences, it continues to be such an integral part of our emotional
lives that it appears beyond criticism. Yet hiding from the truth of family
life leaves women and children vulnerable."
Canadian Panel on Violence Against Women.
Catharine MacKinnon ( ) maintains that "the private is a sphere of battery,
marital rape and women's exploited labor." In this way, privacy and family
are reduced to nothing more than aspects of the master plan, which is male
domination. Democratic freedoms and the need to keep the state's nose out
of our personal affairs are rendered meaningless. The real reason our
society cherishes privacy is because men have invented it as an excuse to
conceal their criminality. If people still insist that the traditional
family is about love and mutual aid - ideals which, admittedly, are
sometimes betrayed - they're "hiding from the truth." The family isn't a
place where battery and marital rape sometimes happen but where little else
apparently does. Sick men don't simply molest their daughters, they operate
in league with their wives to "breed" them for that purpose.
Donna Laframboise; The Princess at the Window; (in a critical explication
of the Catharine MacKinnon, Gloria Steinhem et al tenets of misandric
belief.)
"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that
the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is
oppressing them."
Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor.
"I claim that rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has
not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and
desire."
Robin Morgan
"And let's put one lie to rest for all time: the lie that men are
oppressed, too, by sexism - the lie that there can be such a thing as
'men's liberation groups.' Oppression is something that one group of people
commits against another group, specifically because of a 'threatening'
characteristic shared by the latter group - skin, color, sex or age, etc.
The oppressors are indeed FUCKED UP by being masters, but those masters are
not OPPRESSED. Any master has the alternative of divesting himself of
sexism or racism - the oppressed have no alternative - for they have no
power but to fight. In the long run, Women's Liberation will of course free
men - but in the short run it's going to cost men a lot of privilege, which
no one gives up willingly or easily. Sexism is NOT the fault of women -
kill your fathers, not your mothers".
Robin Morgan.
"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt
for women's bodies."
Andrea Dworkin
"In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because
women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."
Catharine MacKinnon, quoted in Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from
the Strange World of Women's Studies.
"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average
dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference."
Susan Griffin, Rape: The All-American Crime.
"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist".
Ti-Grace Atkinson, Amazon Odyssey (p. 86).
"(Rape) is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by
which all men keep all women in a state of fear".
Susan Brownmiller, Against Our Will p.6.
"When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the
patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression..."
Sheila Jeffrys.
From 'A feminist Dictionary; ed. Kramarae and Triechler, Pandora Press, 1985:
MALE:... represents a variant of or deviation from the category of female.
The first males were mutants... the male sex represents a degeneration and
deformity of the female.
MAN:... an obsolete life form... an ordinary creature who needs to be
watched... a contradictory baby-man...
Letter to editor: "Women's Turn to Dominate". "......Clearly you are not
yet a free-thinking feminist but rather one of those women who bounce off
the male-dominated, male-controlled social structures. Who cares how men
feel or what they do or whether they suffer? They have had over 2000 years
to dominate and made a complete hash of it. Now it is our turn. My only
comment to men is: if you don't like it, bad luck - and if you get in my
way I'll run you down."
Signed: Liberated Women, Boronia Herald-Sun, Melbourne, Australia. 9 Feb.,
1996.
"If the classroom situation is very heteropatriarchal - a large beginning
class of 50 to 60 students, say, with few feminist students - I am likely
to define my task as largely one of recruitment... of persuading students
that women are oppressed," said Professor Joyce Trebilcot of Washington
University, as quoted in Who Stole Feminism: How Women Have Betrayed Women.
"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of
society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded,
responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government,
eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the
male sex."
Valerie Solana, SCUM Manifesto (Society for Cutting Up Men.)
"Men, as a group, tend to be abusive, either verbally, sexually or
emotionally. There are always the exceptions, but they are few and far
between (I am married to one of them). There are different levels of
violence and abuse and individual men buy into this system by varying
degrees. But the male power structure always remains intact."
Message on FEMISA, responding to a request for arguments that men are
unnecessary for a child to grow into mature adulthood.
And:
Another posting on FEMISA: "Considering the nature and pervasiveness of
men's violence, I would say that without question, children are better off
being raised without the presence of men. Assaults on women and children
are mostly perpetrated by men whom they are supposed to love and trust:
fathers, brothers, uncles, grandfathers, step-fathers."
Both quotes taken from Daphne Patai's excellent critical work,
HETEROPHOBIA
"At Brandies I discovered Feminism. And I instantly became a convert...
writing brilliant papers in my Myths of Patriarchy class, in which I
likened my fate as a woman to other victims throughout the ages."
Heather Hart 7
"Ninety-five percent of women's experiences are about being a victim. Or
about being an underdog, or having to survive... women didn't go to Vietnam
and blow things up. They are not Rambo."
Jodie Foster in The New York Times Magazine.
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