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This article raises some interesting questions, and I'm sure men's activists will have a number of different viewpoints on this. Some questions that I thought were related to this situation were:
Why do people accept (even if begrudginly, in some cases) women who act masculine, but strongly oppose men who act feminine? Is there a double standard here?
Even if one doesn't personally understand or sympathize with why a man would want to dress like a woman, does society have a right to dictate something as superficial as how people dress? Or is it not such a superficial issue?
As activists for empowering men and giving them more freedom, as well as honoring individual men and masculinity, how does taking a stance on this issue fit into that?
Just some food for thought and discussion.
Scott
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by Anonymous User on Saturday December 14, @02:11PM EST (#2)
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As Warren puts it, we've created the multi-optioned woman and the no-optioned man.
Marc
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by Anonymous User on Saturday December 14, @05:35PM EST (#3)
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Also, how is it that women soldiers can have long hair, whereas male soldiers can't ?
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by Anonymous User on Saturday December 14, @08:06PM EST (#5)
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This is an interesting case and raises some fascinating questions.
I think there is a double standard between women who appear masculine and men who appear feminine.
Something I've always wondered about is why a more masculine style of dress is often referred to as "androgynous" or nuetral. What would be a nuetral appearance?
In S. Pacific cultures men and women dress almost exactly alike (lava-lava tied around the waist) and both traditionally have long hair, often tied in a similar "bun" at the top of the head. But their tattoos are very gender specific both in design and location on the body.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday December 15, @06:36AM EST (#9)
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Sorry, Dittohd, but I don't agree. The victory of feminism was achieved by persuading ( and forcing) women to abandon the traditional constraints of femininity. Maintenance of that victory requires persuading (and forcing) men to retain the traditional constraints of masculinity
A restrictive dress code ( applicable only to one gender)is an example, albeit superficial, of that process.
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I was always under the impression that in society's view some of the best people in the world are people who wear women's cloths and makeup.
So why is this a problem?
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Yeah, I've commented on this particular subject, before.
I think my exact words were; "Why is it that when a woman wears men's clothing it is a "fashion-statement", but if a man wears women's clothing he is a "Trasvestite"...?"
I can speak from personal expirience, in a way, on this.
On the rare occasions I go into public, I see TONS of women who look more "butch" than Janet Reno in a construction-worker's uniform, and NO ONE even blinks. Their hair is cut like a Marine, they may be wearing a plaid flannel shirt with blue-jeans with the knees cut out, and no one seems to notice.
But, as an American-Indian, I always wear my long hair in the two traditional braids, and despite the fact that most people KNOW that Indian men wear braids, culturaly, They stare, make snide comments and point. They do this, of course because to non-Indians braided hair is considered to be "feminine."
However, I also notice that our women, (Indian women) like most American women, can ALSO wear pretty much whatever they want and not be hassled about it.
Hell, Two years ago, I was assaulted, simply for wearing traditional appearal. Funny thing, that. ...I'm not sure if that was a gender-related crime, or a racialy motivated one. Both, I guess.
This assault occurred at my PLACE OF WORK.
When I reported it, I was told by management and upper-management, that I deserved it for the way I dressed.
And incidently, I was fired from that job shortly after that.
Oh, and guess who my assailant was..., You got it, a WOMAN!
So yeah, even though I am a hopelessly HETEROSEXUAL man, who simpily loves and honors his cultural traditions, BECAUSE I am a man who wears his hair in what is precieved by others as a "feminine hair style", I and thousands of Indian males expiriece this sort of thing freaquently.
So, the fiminists had better not EVER DARE to tell ME that there "is no double standard for men." when the "gender-line" is blurred!
Oh, and by the way,
When PANTS were first introduced to my people, the men didn't want to wear them in place of their breech-clouts. Y' know why...?
Because they thought the pants seemed EFFIMINATE.
See? it's all a matter of preception and perspective.
TC.
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> women can ... pretty much whatever they want...
I think that's the operative phrase. Women have much more freedom than men in all areas of life. But what do they do with that freedom? Just a thought...
With regard to your story, TC: I too have learned that one of the fundamental aspects of the "guy code" these days is that you have to dress like a moron and look like shit unless you're at work. I take this as just another manifestation of the No Self-Expression Allowed If You're Male rule.
I have moderately long blonde hair, and when I dress at all well I too get queried as to my sexual orientation. My take is that the only allowed appearance if you have long hair is in the thoroughly macho zone of biker or unabomber.
-------------------------------------------------- ----------
/* Not All Men Are Fools -- Some Are Martian Bachelors
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((" My take is that the only allowed appearance if you have long hair is the thoroughly macho zone of biker or unabomber."))
I had a moped once. and I threw a fire-cracker at my sister when I was about 6. Does that count...?
(^_^)
TC.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday December 15, @03:08PM EST (#11)
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My experience as a volunteer is that men who volunteer to work with children are suspect child-molesters and much less likely to get the job. One woman told me that she would only hire a man for such a job who was recommend by woman. It's amazing how such blatant sex discrimation passes in the US today.
So, a man might be able to get hired to chaperone kids if he dressed like a woman and passed for a woman. But once he's hired, if he dresses like a woman, he risks losing his job.
Acting like a man includes not being afraid to stand up for your dignity and freedom as a person. It's about time more men, this chaperone included, did this.
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...Any one here ever see the movie "Mrs Doubtfire"?
TC.
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BTW all, I wanted to update you on the Missouri issue. I sent messages to all of the School Board members, but only got one response. I'll have to give that to you later, as I'm out of the country on a business trip with limited access to email. However, my favorite phrase from that email, as I remember it, was "School is not the place to teach children about other people's beliefs." It's not?
Sean
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Shocking response! If that response was sent by one of the school board members I would send it to the media in the area and maybe the alcu. They would have a field day with it.
It is interesting how when a male breaks a social rule and are sanctioned it is dismissed by feminism, a movement that is supposedly about equality.
The above comment
" Everyone knows, but won't admit out loud these days, that male characteristics are superior to female characteristics... for the most part. When a woman acts like a man, she is "improving" herself. Male characteristics are to be envied. When a man acts like a woman, he is moving BACKWARD. Who in their right mind would do that!"
Is the typical feminist response to any issue like this. I seriously doubt this is the case. Why would anyone who is taking a step backward be considered a threat? The real problem is that men are pushed into a tightly defined box by men AND women. If any man attempts to break out of this box he is challenged and punished by those who feel he is out of place.
The really interesting point here is that the same women who complain about the "glass ceiling" are the same ones that question men who want to work with children.
Tony
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