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by Anonymous User on Wednesday December 04, @09:37AM EST (#1)
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I read the critique that you received. Not knowing the specifics about the fictional story makes it hard to comment on.
But what the people (women) who disagree with you have in common is: they see sexism as a 'one way street' - in other words only women have sexist barriers and negative portrayals to overcome. Perhaps you should ask them if they think sexism happens to both sexes, and if they agree on some aspect of this fact - try to relate it back to your original point.
Good day.
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Hi,
I read the story (it's at the top of the page, for those who have followed the link). Do I like it? No, not really. It's predictable, and not very well written. Is it misandric? Kind of. There are all kinds of interpretations available, and a misandric treatise is only one of them, although that is a pretty strong one.
It has made me think, though, again, about reactions to such material. It's important to me to protect people's right to write whatever interests them, or provides some kind of emotional catharsis, whatever. That includes the stuff I don't like, or don't agree with, or don't have the emotional experiences for identifying with it. For example, I thought Pulp Fiction, Fargo, and Dogma were horrid, they ticked me off, and made me want to take a shower afterwards. I didn't care for them. I thought they dealt with death in a fashion that I felt detestable. Should the writers be castigated for writing them? Part of me says "yes", part of me says "no". And it's the part of me that says "no" that usually wins out, because I wouldn't want anyone telling me what I should or shouldn't write.
Now, I agree that it's unfortunate that stories like the one in question are acceptable, while stories where women are the foil would not be accepted, and would most likely be shot down with more venom than was leveled at this story. That's why I try to inform anyone in my reach about the complexities of gender and the alternate interpretations for masculinity and femininity and the problems that men face. That's the tack I choose to take. I'm not trying to say that other tacks are not appropriate, I'm just trying to illustrate an alternative approach. My hope is that as people begin to recognize the complexities, this double standard will begin to fade. Maybe that's idealistic, but I've been called that before.
What disturbs me most about the postings are the responses to Trudy's comments, especially the men who promoted the "women are better" view. I wouldn't mind getting the chance to speak with those guys on email or whatever to give them an alternative point of view. But, I'm not sure that a fiction forum is the place for that.
I urge everyone who is interested to read the story before posting.
Sean
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I read the story. It was very poor, and very, very, very predictable. It would have been poor whether men or women got killed at the end, and if it could have had any point at all it should have been about the arrogance of 'advanced' races presuming to impose their ideas of progress on 'lesser' races. As for men being 'the weaker sex', whatever that means, it really doesn't say much for a society if it treats its 'weakest' members the way that men get treated sometimes. Like so many qualities traditionally perceived as male, strength is something that some women want to be seen to have but without needing to earn it or live with its attendant responsibilities. When women have been completely stripped of any notion that being female qualifies them for protection or special consideration, and men have been absolved of responsibility for and towards women, then we'll get the measure of who is 'strong'.
A point not picked up on by the absurdly enthusiastic 'critics' of the story was something the author, Mesmereyes, wrote (Sun Dec 01, 2002 9:45 am entry), which read:
These "gender" pieces are touched up relics from college. My creative writing professor was a staunch feminist, and so... These stories managed to get me honors in the course! She was so easy to read, and far too easy to please; all we had to do was kill off all the men in the world and wham, A+.
This one paragraph is far more interesting than the original story. Taking both together we actually have an interesting tale, not just bargain-bin feminist sci-fi. It's a testament to how dumb the critics were that they shot down Judy for her 'gender-biased' comments about a story that was originally written to satisfy someone else's gender-biased views. If those aliens has really been so smart they'd have killed all the stupid people (cue cries of "But they did!" from some idiot, see me collapse from boredom).
One last little point, seeing as this business of exterminating men has cropped up again. The author claims that the poisonous agent could target the male XY chromasome pattern, rather than the XX female one. This would, however, also kill all the male children. Funny how that little detail gets overlooked.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday December 04, @12:46PM EST (#4)
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As a professional writer, let me extend my sympathy at the infantile treatment you've recieved from these amateur schmucks. That stated, it is readily apparent to me that many of these folk are, and will continue to be, perpetual wannabe amateurs.
For those not familiar with the art and craft of writing, I'll outline two concepts for you, first workshopping, and secondly the role of the editor.
The concept of workshopping can be easily summed up by stating that a writer submits a work to a circle of critics who tears it apart mercilessly. Nothing is off limits here, including motivations for writing a story. Questions such as "Is this intended to be a professional piece or a private catharsis?" are extremely relevant and valid. To participate effectively and get the maximum benefit from a Writer's Workshop, an aspiring writer must develop a thick skin, something the "Mesmereyes" is obviously woefully lacking in. To take offense at any criticism, and ascribe sinister motives to it; to demand an apology for God's sake, is deplorable. If such a writer ever did that in a circle I ran, I would demand that they grow up and apologize to the group as a whole, and until then not darken the door again.
Secondly, what Mesmereyes encountered at that hands of Mrs. Schuett is no less what would be encountered at the hand of any editor. Editors must make business decisions for publications, and these include such bold statements as "You piece is unfit for this work because... (Please fill in any reason you care to think of.)
Now in some small defense, it is the right of the artist to create whatever work their muse moves them to, and I would include in this even such works designed to "cry 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre." I am, however, baffled, by the tendancy of artistic types to create a work designed to get a reaction, then whine like a spoiled child when they get a reaction. The most charitable description I can come up with is ignorant; disingenuous is closer to the mark, and intellectually cowardly and dishonest is probably most fitting of all.
Ms. Schuett, please stick to your guns. And consider abandoning this online gang of losers, as they are not worthy of you.
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The discussion on this piece was closed as of 12:02 PM EST, with the following message attached by the originator of the site:
This entire discussion has been closed because it violates the critique group rules:
http://forums.FictionAddiction.NET/viewtopic.php?t =63
It is also pending deletion as personal attacks will not be tolerated. Please review the critique group rules by following the link above for more details.
Actually, I suspect that the site owner got wind of Trudy's invitation for us to join the fray and decided to close it because one of their more profligate contributors stepped on a proverbial landmine. I'm of the opinion that this move constitutes censorship in itself. Note that the threat was made to remove the DISCUSSION, but not the story. I site the comments made in the post immediately preceding this one, that editors comments are often harsh, and though there was harshness in some of the posts at FictionAddiction, I didn't regard them as especially hurtful, in fact far less hurtful than some of the things I've read here. I guess these folks must have thinner skins than us!
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They locked the thread before I could make a comment. Sorry Trudy.
The story was anemic and telegraphed.
The worst of it is that it was engendering a pathological way of thinking that relies on extermination as the saviour to a particular problem. This is the thinking of the nazi's, the klan, and of course the feminists. The saddest part of all is that those who were attacking Trudy didn't have a problem with this mode of thinking.
Our culture has some work to do. Their diversity training only applies to certain groups. HA! What a joke.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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Would someone be kind enough to give me a link to the story? I can't seem to find it.
As for the 'discussion closed' forum misstep, I can only say that I would likely find our comments here, in our forum, to be the most relavant. Mostly sound critical thinkers participate here, and that equates to a much higher percentage than in most places.
Mitchell A. Smith
"An ambiguous perspective is all you can hope for when initially confronted by that which you do not know."
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I am sorry, Trudy that you recieved so unprofessional treatment for standing up for equality.
I posted my own fiction there to see, how would they like it.
PUNISHMENT AND CRIME
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The story, and discussion of sorts, is back up. I've now posted to it.
In case there are some people reading this thread, who aren't familiar with Trudy Schuett, you should know that she has been very active for a long time in the men's rights movement. She has earned our respect and, I believe, our assistance if she asks for it.
Sorry you had to deal with such garbage, Trudy. Thanks for standing up for what you believe in -- truth, honesty, justice, and decency.
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Sorry you had to deal with such garbage, Trudy. Thanks for standing up for what you believe in -- truth, honesty, justice, and decency.
Hear! Hear! I also think you can count it a victory, Trudy. Your objections were certainly not dismissed or ignored. :-)
You gave the writer a good jolt. She was bragging smugly about how she pandered to her professor's misandry with the story. As soon as you called her on it, she started backpedaling furiously -
"Extermination doesn't mean 'kill.' It can also mean 'to root out'...
"Women didn't kill the men. It was the (impartial, wise, evolved, peaceful) aliens...
"Yada, yada, yada...
Her smugness returned with the new thread, but you can bet she'll think twice before posting anything so blatantly misandric, because now she knows people will say not-nice things to her if she does.
BTW, I'm not a writer but one of my best friends has been making a living at it for over 20 years. His writer's groups are, as others have said, supportive but merciless. If you're serious about your writing, think about finding another group.
Larry
Proud member of the Sperm Cartel
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The forum and discussion are indeed up at the present time. I managed to make a submission under "Mens_issues."
Steve
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Let's give Trudy some support that she asked for. Take a look at the discussion and consider posting. (It only takes a couple of minutes to register.) Also, if you're inclined, take a look at the discussion that Mesmereyes is having with BlueShutters.
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Now, I'll defend her right to post whatever type of story she feels compelled to write. However, when it truly is poorly written (not grammatically...it's ok in that respect), doesn't establish any real plot or characters, then I just have to say so. Politely. Maybe.
"I'm sorry, mesmereyes, but this story unconvincing.
“Zork’s blood pressure saw him purple as he stood in a space of helplessness and disbelief." Zork? General Zork? Turning purple? General Zork turning purple? Why purple? Was someone strangling him?
“He sat at the head of the conference table, pounding his fist on the marble surface, sweat running down the side of his angry face.” Are all of the politicians dead? Sending a Military General to do the negotiation towards a 'final solution’ mostly results in bad things. I'd be more inclined to send, oh, someone like Marth Burk. That way, you could guarantee all the women would be 'finalized.' No, wait, that’s not politically correct. Shucks, I plum forgot!
So, you make Zork out to be a great guy, a person faithfully negotiating with the alien, trying to save the ‘other’ gender, striving to save the ‘species’, yet the alien’s still want to kill only the men, including this 'great' man. Again, why is that?
What about Maggie? She’s pounding her fist just as General Zork did, mad at the alien, for ‘not’ killing her? She was in the room when that tactic didn’t work for Zork, so why not change tactics? Does she really know that the alien won’t now destroy the female gender? Anyway, she’s a good trooper for being angry with the alien’s actions. Hopefully they haven’t destroyed all of the Xanax. Or Zoloft. She’s gonna need a TON of both!
Yes, I'm a first time poster here, 'newbie' as you've termed those of us just now initiated into this site and coming to critique this particular piece, but I know well written fiction when I read it, and this just isn't.
Mitchell A. Smith
PS. This post was not edited to a precise degree before being submitted, so please forgive any glaring ‘grammatical’ error(s)."
Mitchell A. Smith
"An ambiguous perspective is all you can hope for when initially confronted by that which you do not know."
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Listen Trudy,
You as a woman have done a lot for us men in our movement, and whatever happened in your moderating that post about male gendercide, I apologize! Don't let these people get to you, they're just playing feminist mindgames!
Peace out!
Emmanuel Matteer Jnr.
Emanslave@aol.com
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday December 04, @08:48PM EST (#15)
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Trudy:
I don't know what dictionary the woman who made the rationalization about extermination is using, but in my Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, violence is associated with the relocation she refers to, and another definition simply says "to kill out" as in genocide.
Didn't the Holocaust begin with the relocation of the Jewish people, and then the Nazi's found out it was too costly and time consuming?
As a German/American I find it sickeningly appalling and cowardly that these individuals you've moderated exercise no more wisdom than to advocate such horrible behaviors, and then cut off any attempts to correct their misandristic hate crime.
In my sensitivity to atone for the sins of ones who have borne the same lineage as myself, I find that I am terrified to think that the legacy of Adolph Hitler may possibly be living on in the minds of people such as these.
The kind of dementia that gave us the death camps of WWII is not the solitary property of one people or one race, but as we see by this example those sick thoughts can be embraced by a diversity of mental deficients.
Thank you Trudy for calling this to our attention, tolerance of violent thoughts such as the ones in that misandristic story only leads to more violent thoughts and then...
Do those people look at themselves as ambassadors of political correctness? Is this where political correctness is leading us? If so, then political correctness is as bad or worse than the bigotry and injustice it purports to rectify.
Sincerely Yours, Ray
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This is the reply I posted on FictonAddiction
Hi,
I'm Raymond Cuttill and I'd like to give my comments on "The Weaker Sex". I understand that we have to discuss the merits of the "writing" and not talk about the writer or the writer's motives. From what I've seen here I'm sure that were Hitler or the KKK to post fiction here it would be treated equally objectively. I'm equally sure that Saddam Hussain is a genetically altered pussy cat sent back from the future by well-wishers who want to promote world peace. But on to the writing -
We start in a conference room where a male and female general are being told by an alien that the weaker sex is to be eliminated. What do we know about this alien? Very little it seems. We do know
“For twelve years, every military attempt asserted against the aliens resulted in instant humiliation and defeat. Their technology stood light years ahead of anything that anyone could have ever imagined, and worst of all, their ability to connect with thought patterns made it impossible to keep secrets from them. “
We have thought reading technologically superior aliens who have been fighting the Earth’s military forces for 12 years and defeating them. Then presumably they land and say we come in peace? Two generals then say come in and sit down, we’ll get you a cup of tea? Any general would have lost soldiers in such a war and not be in chatty mood for an alien. This is presumably not a peace conference. It would be with world leaders anyway, not generals. We are told the aliens can do anything they want. So they’ve effectively conquered the planet? Why inform anyone? Because the aliens “could teach the world the finer points of wisdom”. The surprising attitude of the generals to an alien conqueror is admiration?
What is this story really about? It is not about alien conquerors or benefactors. It is not about how you “eliminate” the weaker sex (The mechanism hardly gets a mention). It is about who is the weaker sex. The author, sorry the story, (we’re not allowed to mention the author) invites us to decide who is the weaker sex. Obviously it is impossible to divorce any story from the society it comes from. Some critics for example say that George Orwell’s 1984 was more about 1948 than about 1984. There has been discussion elsewhere about who is the weaker sex. The sole purpose of these discussions is to claim that women are as strong or stronger than men. I’m sure it depends on your definition of “weaker” and I’m sure a definition of weaker can be found that suits any outcome you want.
I will however take one issue with the author, Mesmereyes, who says
“Oh my! Did my story say that no males will survive? It seemed to me that Amaus explained rather clearly that nothing would be "lost." If you look in your dictionary at the word, "exterminate," you'll find, among the synonyms, the term "uproot," which means: "Move (people) forcibly from their homeland into a new and foreign environment."”
Amaus actually says that “technically” nothing would be lost, that is not the same as nothing would be lost. In any case how does
“Forgive the pun, General, but we’re dead serious” work out. If relocating the male population then “dead serious” would not be a pun. This implies that the story is vague enough for the ending to be anything you want it to be. It looks like the words mean kill or destroy all the men on the planet. If you meant anything else, you should alter the story to say so.
And what do we see inviting us to consider who is the weaker sex? An alien conqueror who says
“No good has come from the cohabitation of the two sexes, and frankly, your history shows that it is the battle between the sexes that has caused the majority of the destruction on your planet”. If we’ve just had 12 years of interplanetary war I think that might have caused a little destruction.
We also get the same alien saying
“You know life begins with physical pain, you know life ends in spiritual pain, and you know that energy is a continuum, yet you still believe life ends!”
You’ll have to explain that to me, because it sounds like bunkum.
And also
“We came here to help you purify this planet and get your people back on track. You’re millenniums behind the rest of the universe. There is no other way.”
What is impure about the “weaker” sex? Back on what track? What Nirvana awaits us if we eliminate all the men? Something out one of Mary Daly’s books? It is not explained. Millenniums behind? It seems if life is out there that by sheer luck of the draw some life will be millions of years ahead and some millions of years behind.
Anyway I can’t see any reason to think this story is about anything other than someone’s views of who is the weaker sex. It is not a consistent SF story and seems to have no story to speak of. The background is sketchy and not that consistent.
I only have one other comment. Please keep writing this stuff. It does more for the men’s movement than I ever could.
_________________
Raymond Cuttill
www.menshour.com where the first amendment still applies to men
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Raymond, This is off the subject, but...,
Sorry I didn't respond a week or so ago to a post of yours.
My key-board went ka-put on me.
Anyway, I'm sorry, I haven't been able to find any documentation(s) on American Indian voteing rights. The fact that reservation Indians in particular, were barred from voteing untill the late 40's is something that most Indians know, but most other folks don't. It doesn't get talked about alot. Mainly because people like the feminazis don't want any "competeition" in their "sufferage", and My people have been jerked around ALOT worse than any "American women".
I feel rather stupid not knowing where to look for scourses for you, on this info.
Let me look about a bit more, and I'll see what I can do...,
Thundercloud.
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Thundecloud,
Thanks for your response. It's already clear that there are all sorts of distortions in the feminist story about women getting the vote, and when I put together my critique of that I'll look into American Indian voting as well.
Raymond
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I liked the writing, not because of it's writing quality but because of the discussion on the subject that it could engender. I am a man, not a writer, and disagree with the "conclusion," but think that the idea that men are the weaker sex is certainly true in many cases.
I think this piece is masandric and certainly see how it could fuel and even worsen hatred that already exists against us.
Whether or not men really are the weaker sex would, in itself, be an interesting discussion.
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Whether or not men really are the weaker sex would, in itself, be an interesting discussion.
That sounds like a pretty dull, nasty, pointless discussion to me and I am way too weary of them. If you want something interesting to talk about, why not talk about the strengths and gifts of each sex?
From some of David Deida's advice to women:
To help yourselves grow, you can learn to gift each other with what you truly need without catering to each other's neediness. Your man can honestly admit that he sometimes needs your radiant love to help pull him down from his head into deeper heart-connection with you and with life. You can honestly confess--without guilt or neediness--that you sometimes need his presence, humor, and perspective to help free you from emotional closure into openhearted joy.
Misandry thrives on guilt and neediness, as does radical feminism. We don't need to add to it by playing blame games like "Who's really weaker?"
Larry
Proud member of the Sperm Cartel
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by Anonymous User on Thursday December 05, @12:00PM EST (#25)
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Good point. That's another reason why the "weaker sex" story is so worthless. Your comment also highlights what's so great about Trudy's writing: she shows how women and men should care for each other.
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Okay, Fine. Men are the "weaker sex."
So, from now on we'll just draft WOMEN and not men.
We'll just let WOMEN go off to some God-forsaken country and get THEIR pretty little heads blown off, and their guts ripped out by shrapnel.
Meanwhile, we Guys will stay here at home and reap the benifits of female deaths and whine when we don't get our way every, single time. and say things like "Women are good for nothing Dogs, who need to be trained like animals."
Oh, Yeah, and we'll also demand that these very women, along with ALL women be stripped of their Constitutional rights so that we men can have more privliges THAT WE NEVER EARNED, or FOUGHT FOR, in the name of "equality".
Oh, yeah, and we'll also trivialize women's contributions to society, and take the credit for ourselves. Oh, and of course, then we will impose speech-codes on them so they can't critisize us, but we can critisize them all we want.
Then send them off to fight more wars in more God-forsaken countries to fight for us to continue the standard of living we're used to and demand, then tell them, we hate them, and that they are oppressing us.
I could go on, But allready I can hear feminists screaming at me; "THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!!"
No, ladies, It's not is it?
...Sucks being the "stronger sex" don't it...?
Thundercloud.
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P.S. Are you planning on writing a similar story about the eradication of the stronger, overbearing, controlling sex?
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by Anonymous User on Thursday December 05, @12:03AM EST (#20)
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I noticed that it's against the rules to criticize the author but not against the rules to praise her. So while the congratulation posts are up, all the objections are missing.
Maybe we're looking at this wrong. Perhaps this is a valid forum for some short stories with gender feminism as the enemy. If this story encourages the author in us all then everyone's happy. It's not like they're going to delete it if we stray from the PC track. Right?
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(("I noticed that it's against the rules to criticize the author but not against the rules to praise her."))
No shock there.
That rule reflects ALL of today's western, p.c. society. You can.., no, You MUST praise women..., even when they don't deserve it. But you can NEVER, EVER critisize them, ESPECIALY if that critisizm is justified.
Remember; Dictatorship does not allow for dissent.
Thundercloud.
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Thundercloud.
Your phrase "Dictatorship does not allow for dissent" got me thinking about this feminist hatred of dissent, and how they lie and twist around to not let even a minor criticism through. Perhaps feminists are like dictators in that way. Basically they know they don't deserve their power and that people hate them but they can't allow any dissent at all because it would open the door to a flood of well deserved criticisms, and perhaps they delude themselves that all is well but secretly fear this criticism which could ultimately lead to them being exposed as the hateful/fearful creatures they are, and losing their power.
Raymond
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Actually, I can't take credit for that phrase. ("Dictatorship does not allow for dissent.")
It was Christina Hoff Sommers, who said that.
I don't remember when or where, but she said it in direct referance to the feminist mind set.
Truer words were never spoken, I'd say.
Thundercloud.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday December 10, @09:20AM EST (#86)
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Personally i think you all have been going about this in the wrong way, but that just an opinion and before you get mad at me too, I've been involved with mens rights for years. Difference is, I fight where it matters. You have to know where your battle fields are. Its politics that need to change. Thats where the battle field is. You form your groups and you go after the oppressors and excuse me but that means you go after the politicians. You guys at least in this case seem to be stepping all over yourselves and crossing your own lines with this fiction bullshit. Look at the thread again and read every thing you wrote about feminists and then read this, taken from this very page on your own site! "In partnership with The Men's Activism News Network, the Individualist Feminist movement offers proof that feminism doesn't have to be anti-male. Wendy McElroy and her iFemininsts.com web site provides a forum for feminists who believe in equal rights and responsibilities for men and women." First you aknowlege that feminists can be fair and then you speak of them as if every one is a demon from hell and responsible for all your pain. I wasn't abused by a feminist. I was abused by a rotten system.
Mens activists don't have to hang anyone to get the job that needs to be done finished. Ganging up to go after one unpublished unskilled author on an obscure site is not a good use of the manpower collected here. If any of you really care to make a difference on the issues that face abused men you need to focus your energies where they will be productive with lawmakers and politicians and mass media. Witch hunts aren't worth your time and they'll give you a bad rep. If you continue to follow your chosen course of action you are on your way to becoming no better than the oppressors. Harness your energy and direct it toward making positive changes in the world. And thats my humble opinion.
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Yes, you're quite right. Something like this story is trivial and irrelevant in the greater scheme of things, though there's a certain appeal to something that can be attacked immediately. We all like to vent our spleens occasionally, which probably is a waste of energy that could be better employed for something else. Maybe when postings in response to items like this one pass the #40 mark we should all take a reality check.
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Something like this story is trivial and irrelevant in the greater scheme of things
I agree as far as the above statement goes, but Trudy Schuett asked for help in dealing with the first story, and that was good enough for me to get involved. BTW: I posted on FictionAddiction as "BlueShutters."
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I have to say we've scored a little bit of a victory there. The idea that they can post stuff attacking men and get away with it is now damaged. All of the posts I objected to "I'm Telling" about the He-Man Woman-Hates Club (as well as mine) have been deleted. Maybe if MerMerEyes does publish that book of her work (Although personally I think it not good enough for publication) she will not expect to put in the man-hating bits without getting what she considers a hate reaction. Just maybe some of those stories will get dropped from the forum and any future publication and they'll all be more circumspect about such stories. Being safely anonymous and distanced on the internet, it will be some time before the confrontation of such man-hating is enough for them to really review their entrenched position. That will only happen when their man-hating is confronted in real life.
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There are many, many avenues that need our attention when it comes to mens activism. Political change is one avenue. Confronting hatred is surely another. I think that the posters who challenged the hateful story have done good service in bringing awareness that fiction can be used as a weapon of hate. I think that the fiction addiction folks will never openly admit this impact but I beleive it is there all the same and the next time this sort of thing happens they will see more than they have this time.
Now anon please tell us about your political activism and what you are doing for the cause. It is simple to sit back and criticise from above. Now tell us what you have done?
Stand Your Ground Forum
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by Anonymous User on Thursday December 05, @02:17AM EST (#21)
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Just thought I'd offer one more criticism of the story, since no one else has mentioned it:
After the the author states that men, being the weaker sex, will need to be eliminated, she backpedals and says that according to some dictionary, "elimination" is synonymous with relocation.
Yet, in the story, the alien explicity states that the means of eliminating the male sex is a foreign (and presumably toxic) substance in the water supply.
Pray tell, how would drinking water that has been laced with some foreign substance cause someone to be relocated? The author is being entirely inconsistent.
To interpret the term "elimination" in the context of this story as anything other than extermination or murder would be completely illogical. In fact, there really is little room for interpretation at all, as the author cleary states that the men, by drinking a toxic substance, will be eliminated.
-hobbes
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Hello hobbes. Why don't you copy part of your post to the critique board at FictionAddiction? It's been great to see some solidarity there among people who oppose hatred.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday December 05, @04:10AM EST (#23)
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I've been reading SF for thirty years and the ideas in this story are very, very old. It is in line with radical feminist stories like The Female Man written in the sixties and seventies--only far, far inferior. She commits the two cardinal sins of science fiction; first, not knowing the history of her subgenre and re-inventing the wheel (a kind of square wheel at that); two, as per other comments--not thinking through her ideas--which is the single most important component of science fiction. The story lacks the proper detail, which indicates she hasn't done the necessary research (beyond perhaps her junior high school biology class). The writing is pedestrian and thin. She's a dilletante with more passion for her chauvanism than for being a writer--as far as I can tell; by they way, I firmly believe the two conditions are related. If she can overcome her deep feelings of inferiority to men (why else would she write a story like this?)maybe she might one day mature enough, to BEGIN to consider maybe working toward earning the status of being a real writer--otherwise I hope she has a day job.
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Well, as for me, who has a few things out there under my own nom de plume, this is junk.
I went and scanned through the site. A smattering of halfway talented amateurs who have no motivation to be any better, and maybe one or two who might make something of themselves, and are conspicuously absent from the discussion.
For the most part it's self-congratulatory, hyper-sensitive, oh-so-politically correct back-patting and mental masturbation.
IOW, 99.9% of them are pathetic wastes of oxygen whose drivel will never grace anything with more prestige than a free website or some fanboy ezine. Those who can, do. Those who can't post whiney-assed snivelling tripe on obscure websites.
Trudy, it's proof positive that no good deed goes unpunished. You've actually written, edited and published, have you not? And this merry band of snot-nosed asswipes over there is taking YOU to task? Fuck 'em. I say shake the dust of your sandals and let these shitheels go back to their lives of quiet desperation. Let me add my take to the growing chorus here - you're wasting your time trying to better that laughable bunch of dingleberries.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Well I'm not one to flame on someone elses board, so instead I wrote and posted a story... not intended to be a rebuttal, it's more an acknowledgement that bad things are done to both men AND women... BY both men AND women. This is the first thing I've written since college... so hopefully I didn't embarras us all too much :)
here it is:
Be gentle , I've never EVER submitted any of my work to critical review, and certainly not on this subject.
RADIATOR HOSE
I found myself sighting down the new grooves in the otherwise pristine white sheetrock wall in the hall, marveling at the force required to put them there. They looked like the tracks a snake would leave as it worked it’s way across a soft surface… semicircular depressions that traveled with a gentle curve, sometimes up, sometimes down. The experimenter in me concluded that a marble would travel the length of the deeper ones quite satisfactorily if the wall were a floor. My older sister thought that was a dumb idea and pushed me back towards my bedroom. As I walked the analysis continued, if the wall had been painted instead of bare sheetrock, the grooves would certainly not have ended up as deep. The grooves had been struck with a small diameter radiator hose, maybe an inch and a half, the kind that’s orange to indicate that it can withstand high temperatures.
My father did all his own work on the car, a family with no money for wall paint certainly doesn’t have the money to have others work on their car. I remember him unwinding that length of hose, carefully measuring, cutting and fitting it in place. He stashed away the excess for use the next time. This stashing away process explained why both basement and garage were so full of junk… um excuse me, ”Useful Stuff”… that neither car nor people could fit in either of them. I used to hang around when he was working, just like all boys do. There was something about being the gopher (for dad) that was very satisfying to an 11 year old, and it’s always good to know what a box end wrench is. With hindsight I think the only real use I was to him was as a beer retriever, but every time I look at MY 11 year old I know why dad didn’t complain when I handed him the wrong tool. That’s not to say that he didn’t complain, because he certainly did, loud and often. I think I learned the bulk of the really good swear words by hanging out as dad worked on cars.
But I digress… As I was marched past my brothers room by my pushy older sister, I peeked in. Steve was on his bed, lying on his stomach and looking miserable. I heard his snuffling and saw the tracks of tears on his dirty face, a part of me felt sorry for him, but most of me was grateful it was him and not me. I also noticed the crayons strewn about the floor, and the outline of a horse carefully drawn on the wall next to his bed… he was almost 8, he should have known better. He was staring blindly at the wall like we all tend to do at times like that, even though I know he heard us, he refused to look. I think maybe he was embarrassed about his crying, I know that I always was when it happened to me. I remember thinking that he’d certainly kept it up for long enough, much longer than was appropriate for a boy. He was still young though, he’d learn.
I settled back into my room and “The Chronicles of Narnia”, so soon I was in a world of talking animals, Witches and great Lions. The summer afternoon passed in a heartbeat as CS Lewis enfolded me in his tale of wonder. As I was euphorically swimming up a sparkling waterfall to the exclamation of “Onward and Upward”, the small part of me still in the real world heard heavy footsteps on the stairs. I looked up to see my father walk by heading towards “The Parents Bedroom” at the end of the hall. Now all of us kids believed that the parents bedroom must also have been a magical place, because it was the only room in the house that we weren’t allowed in… EVER. It was the only room besides the bathroom that had a lock on it, and it was always locked. This might not seem strange to the casual reader until I explain that in our house even the outside doors were never locked. Living in the country in those days, the only things that needed locking were things you wanted to keep your kids out of… bedroom, gun cabinet, and bathroom (when in use).
So I jumped up to follow dad, as we all did when he got home from work. He must’ve asked me what I’d been up to, or what I was reading, or something along those lines, because I remember starting to tell him about the book. As he passed Steve’s room dad noticed him in bed and abruptly changed direction to walk in to see him. Steve was sleeping, thumb in mouth, and the tear stains were still quite visible running sideways down his face. Funny thing though, they weren’t as much tear stains as they were tear CLEANS, because where the tears had passed his face was pink and clean, and the rest of his face was still dusty from playing outside in the dirt (Steve had a Tonka collection we were all envious of). Dad sat down on the bed and patted Steve’s back to wake him. Steve woke up, saw dad, and immediately started crying again, almost like he’d been saving it up. When dad asked what happened nothing coherent came out of my brothers mouth, and he was working up to a good wail, so dad looked at me.
“Well, mom caught Steve writing on the wall with crayons so she hit him with a hose”. My father looked at me like I wasn’t speaking English. “What?” he said. So I repeated myself. “Steve was drawing on the wall right there”, I pointed to the horse, “and mom must’ve saw him, she started yelling at him. I ran out in the hall and saw Steve run out of his room, mom caught him in the hall and hit him with the hose”. Dad tuned to Steve and said “let me see your back”. So Steve turned and carefully pulled up his shirt. There were a bunch of long welts across his back, ribbons of crisscrossing red that a part of my mind decided would fit nicely into the dents in the wall left by the hose when it missed my brother. I looked up and for the first time in my life I saw tears running down my fathers face. He stood up, and stared at the picture on the wall for a minute, then he turned around, walked out of Steve’s room and down the hall, bending to pick up the radiator hose as he went.
I followed him downstairs where mom was in the kitchen, he stopped in front of her and for a second didn’t say anything, they just stared at each other. His hand was clenched around the hose, I could see the veins standing out on his arm. I didn’t know what was happening at the time, but I could see that he was struggling. Suddenly he dropped the hose in front of mom and said in a quiet voice, “If you ever touch any of those kids again, you’re gone.”. That was it… I still remember it verbatim after 23 years, he never raised his voice, but the tears were still running down his cheek. She started yelling, I don’t remember what, and this time it was his fists that clenched. In the same voice he’d just spoken with he said “Get... OUT...”, and she got. He sat down at the kitchen table and sat for a long time with his head in those big hands. Later he sat us all down and apologized that he wasn’t around to stop what happened, working 7 days a week paying the bills doesn’t leave a man much time to spend with his kids. Someday I hope to be half the man my father is.
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Whoa Dave! What a beautiful story of a man's love for his children. Written like a pro. You've never written before? Keep writing!
Is this based on personal experience? If so, I would love to include it in my stories section of standyourground.com. There is a space there for stories about men we admire and this would be great to have. It can be anonymous or named it is up to you. There is also a place for men to tell their expereinces of pain and actually this one could fit in both. As men, we need to get our experiences out in the public eye to discredit the radical feminist assertions that we are inhuman and without pain.
Anyone else out there interested in speaking your experiences you can find out more about this here or enter them automatically on the web here.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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Well I didn't remember all the details, so I'd have to term it fiction but the abuse certainly did happen, and my fathers response did too. It was the last time my mother touched any of us by my recollection.
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That's a hell of a story, Dave. Thank you for sharing it.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday December 05, @03:55PM EST (#29)
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Suspiciously, after I posted my critique of Mesmereyes' story, the topic was locked again (and my critique was removed). My critique focused solely on the merit and style of the story and was in no way a personal attack on the author, yet it was deleted. It appears one is only allowed to post "critiques" to FictionAddiction if they are "cheerleader critiques." I wish I had copied my critique so I could have posted it here instead.
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by Anonymous User on Friday December 06, @05:49AM EST (#55)
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Here's another:
http://forums.fictionaddiction.net/viewtopic.php?t =1103&sid=4181ba1fc77bd289f6b94dc064d38c2f
(Cut and paste link, then remove the space between "t" and "=" to get the link to work.)
This time all the men die off because they become addicted to sex with holographic women and so real women have to work out a way to breed without them, leaving men to become extinct.
[sarcasm] Such prolific talent she has, and such a fair, open-minded approach to gender issues. [/sarcasm]
I don't think it's worth commenting at that site anymore, as anything that is not PC cheerleading or minor corrections of grammar seems to get deleted.
It is interesting to read the comments to that story though. They really are all oblivious to how male-bashing and gendercide are just as hateful as the racist versions of the same. I doubt they'd be all full of praise if her story had just killed off all Jews.
In one of the comments (in a great show of her double-standards and hypocrisy) the author claims that if her (hypothetical) son came back from school repeating a sexist remark, she'd track it down to its source and furiously tell the person (child?) off. Seems she wants to give it, but doesn’t want to take it.
Mu Dog
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Mu Dog - My hat is off to you. Very nice job in articulating the postition that it was the ideas that were upsetting folks and showing that the provocative hateful message in the story was reason enough for criticism. You have great skill in using words. Thank you.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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by Anonymous User on Monday December 09, @10:33AM EST (#78)
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Thanks for the compliment.
Unfortunately, I don’t think any of it got through. As far as I can see they didn’t really take the time to consider anything we said because they were fixated on defending one of their own. Understandable in one way, but a pity they didn’t even try to be fair and hear us out.
What amazed me was that to the very end they denied basic facts about it, such as claiming that the men in the stories weren’t killed, or that the author maybe wrote it under “duress” from a feminist professor. It seems to me that they have a deep block (probably subconscious) against even thinking about this issue honestly and fairly. All that mattered was defending their “team-mate” and the facts of the matter be damned. She didn’t do it because they want to believe she didn’t do it.
At least that’s how I saw it.
Mu Dog
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Yes Mu Dog, I saw it the same way. It was a remarkable experience to see such denial and I fear we will be seeing more and more of that as the hatred begins to be exposed. Actually, I felt sorry for them. We simply need to speak our truth in as loving a manner as we can.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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Interesting, isn't it, that folks like that preach "love" yet stand firmly behind hate.
Very interesting.
Yeah, And General Custer loved my people, and Adolf Hitler loved Jewish people. I get it, now. Silly Me...,
Oh, and by the way, to those people who say; "It's just a (harmless) story..."
Might I suggest they read "Mien Kampf", By Adolf Hitler.
Yeah, he was fond of (harmless) stories, too...,
TC.
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It was worth protesting the hateful, sexist, typically feminist content of the story, but the story was also terribly written. If it weren't in the final solution genre, it wouldn't have been worthy of any notice.
Mesmereyes' teacher's lack of literary standards, for giving out high grades, leaves us something to be grateful for. Since all that was necessary, to get an A+, was to kill off all men (and little boys, probably), Mesmereyes never learned a thing about writing.
In fact, her teacher probably was in a similar situation -- hired by a university to teach writing, not because she could write, but solely because she despised everyone born outside of the female biological group. That's bad in itself, but at least they didn't have to learn anything or develop any expertise, and they, therefore, did neither. (Remind you of some people, where you work, TGK?)
If we're ever able to install a system based on merit, these yahoos will be out on the street begging. And I, for one, won't give them squat.
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I feel sorry for her to be honest. To be so bitter that you project your hatred onto everyone who resembles the object of your hate is truly a horrible way to live.
Yes her writing is derivative and trite, but that's not what she's there for anyway (and the piece she wrote about her abuse as a child was pretty good). It appears that she's in a mode of goading others into attacking her and then letting other women step in to protect her. She gets to be nasty while maintaining her "victimhood", AND she gets her existance validated by women who don't realize she's playing them for fools.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday December 07, @01:28PM EST (#64)
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Hi, I am dogcrazyjen, DaveK's wife. I have to say that when he brought up this men's activism, I rolled my eyes. I honestly thought he was being hypersensitive to everything, and laughed it off.
I am no longer laughing.
I have been arguing with Mes, and others on the writing site, making sure to be only critical of the story. No matter what I said, how I said it, I was pretty much told off. No one would even admit that there was a slant, let alone hatred in those stories. The sad thing is, we have only spurred her on to write more.
You have one more in your camp now, so I suppose Mes accomplished one good thing.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday December 07, @03:34PM EST (#65)
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Mu Dog here.
They really couldn't get it could they? It's like hate against men doesn't even register with them, even though they are hypersensitive that only positive comments and grammar checking be allowed as criticism.
It's bizarre that in one case outright bigotry and hate is acceptable, and in the other even valid negative criticism of a story is not.
But of course they aren't even able to see their hypocrisy.
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I've got a bit of war going in
Story "I'm Telling" in Critique group
I'm Telling
(Goto 2nd page).
when I asked her to remove her references to the "He-Man Woman Hating Club" which in one deleted post she referred to as Mr. Cuttill's He-Man Woman Hating Club. She denied she'd mentioned me. I posted her original post and she switched to "Have you got anything to say about the story?" and edited a couple of previous posts to pretend she asked me to comment on the story in the first place, which is a lie. I said I'd write to admin. Which I have but either admin gone away for the weekend or is keeping a low profile. She threatened me with a complaint and doesn't want me to post about her stories anymore and, of course, it's me who hates her and, of course, she's only making fair comment or writing fiction.
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I posted her original post and she switched to "Have you got anything to say about the story?" and edited a couple of previous posts to pretend she asked me to comment on the story in the first place, which is a lie.
Do you think that maybe you are dealing with a vicious, hateful, pathological liar (in other words, a feminist)?
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I think you win the prize!!
I don't know if we'll get anything out of it, but maybe it might slow her down a little from calling everyone a woman hater, if she knows she'll get a challenging response, although I wouldn't bet too much on that.
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Isn't it weird, that with feminists, if you critisize their extreames they always accuse you of the opposite extream? (I.E "You're a woman hater!")
That's like saying because I, as an Indian, oppose the extreams of the Ku Klux Klan, that automaticaly makes me a "White-hater".
Or any Jewish person who opposes the extreams of the Nazis is automaticaly a "German-hater".
Or any American or ally who oppose the extreams of the Taliban is an "Arab-hater".
What a pile of B.S.
If there's ANYTHING that's "FICTIONAL", it's feminist brains. Now THAT'S fiction.
Thundercloud.
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I've stayed out of this one. The story itself is relatively unsophisticated as science fiction (I'm a published author too, but of science, not science fiction).
I believe authors should have the freedom to write what they want. I also believe that critics should have the freedom to write what they want about the stories they criticize. Writers and critics are, in my experience, hateful monsters (if they are any good). Of course, not everyone shares my transcendent view of literature; some insist that all writing is political and must be evaluated on political grounds. If the writing forum moderator shares my view, then one would just as welcome to find fault with the anti-male bigotry of the story as one would be to contribute stories with more congenial political themes.
On the other hand, if the forum moderator believes that all literature must be evaluated for its political content, and has a political agenda to go with it, then the fiction addiction forum may be an inappropriate venue for men's activists. It appears that the moderator is somewhere in between the positions of allowing writers and critics the freedom to express themselves and imposing a specific political agenda, and chooses to exercise some editorial control by restricting the discussion of critics as if this were the last word in fairness and literary freedom; this is mistaken, since the ultimate position in this direction is to allow both writers and critics to write whatever they feel like writing.
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Mars - It has been an interesting experience to watch the posters at fictionaddiction. The mod has basically been silent...but has edited posts and deleted posts without posting any reasons or explanations. It is sad to see that although there have not really been flames involved the regulars at the site continue to claim they have been abused and refuse to see that their upset lies with the ideas expressed rather than the way they have been expressed. It has been a good lesson. Mu Dog gets my vote for his articulate and non-emotional debate proving the above with eloquence.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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Mu Dog observes that because the story takes a political stand, it can be criticized on political grounds. The moderator therefore has to justify the deletion of criticism addressing the political stance of the story; I don't believe that he can. I'm staying out of this one, for the most part--I don't wish to get into disputes with writers (whom I generally personally dislike, having grown up with one).
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Rampant Xenophobia is a standard behavior for online forums... for good reason in many cases. Trolls have created a "siege" mentality that this is a prime example of. In that respect I can certainly understand their behavior.
What I consider to be the failure of that site is that their own people didn't reject the political writings of Mes... They've created an environment that is openly hostile to men, and yet there's MEN on there supporting it. It's a sad thing to realize the apathy some men feel about this problem and the negative effect it will have on THEIR children.
Mu Dog you did an admirable job of debating the point, but as their own people admit... it's not about doing what's right, it's about protecting their own against "Outsiders". You can't debate with a person who's unable to listen.
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You have one more in your camp now, so I suppose Mes accomplished one good thing.
A very good thing, indeed, dogcrazyjen. Welcome. Those, who are targets of hate, are the more likely to oppose the hate than others, who are not the targets. As a result, there are more men than women fighting feminism today.
Many of the foremost opponents of the hatred and lies, however, are women, and more women see through feminism every day. The oppression of males shows up in many ways: elimination of males from schools; harsh imbalances in criminal sentencing; men losing access to their children after divorce; men's health; the ignoring of domestic violence against men -- the list goes on and on.
It's good to have you onboard. Please feel free to share your insights at any time.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday December 05, @06:58PM EST (#36)
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I've never seen such a display of hatred and anger. Just how many of you guys are balling each other? You sound like a pack of sexually frustrated homosexuals with nothing better to do than to spread hatred where ever you can find a home for it. Not only are you bashing this author but you're putting a bat over anybody's head who dare to disagree with you. Listen to yourselves if you can stand to do it. Get some religion and ask God for His merciful forgiveness. John 3:16.
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I've never seen such a display of hatred and anger.
Don't get out much, huh? Take a look here to find out something about displays of hatred and anger.
Larry
Proud member of the Sperm Cartel
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And now the tranlation:
I've never seen such a display of hatred and anger.
You disagree with my sacred cow, so you are doing it out of hatred. Shaming language.
Just how many of you guys are balling each other? You sound like a pack of sexually frustrated homosexuals with nothing better to do than to spread hatred where ever you can find a home for it.
Ah, the attack on sexuality. Notice how with these Politically Correct Schnooks that they are the first to play the "Queer! Queer!" card. I bet this guy - or girl - is among the first to link arms and sing 'Kum-bah-ya' when the gay march comes around.
And, oh, look. Shaming language.
Not only are you bashing this author but you're putting a bat over anybody's head who dare to disagree with you.
And ...sniff... you're not all getting ... sob ... along! You're b-b-b-being m-m-m-m-mean, and DISAGREEING with me! You - you - you - buh-buh-buh-bullies! Wah! Wah!
Listen to yourselves if you can stand to do it.
And? So what?
Get some religion and ask God for His merciful forgiveness. John 3:16.
And G-G-G-GOD hates you because you're m-m-m-m-m-mean, too! So there!
Oh, Puh-lease. Quote a relevant passage if you're going to toss this in here.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Gonzo,
I really admire your ability to tell things like they are, make a poigniant point and yet be funny as hell when you do it.
Keep it up.
Thundercloud.
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Just what are you ashamed of? Can you be specific?
I don't see much attacking of mesmereyes. What I see is a reaction to a story about gendercide. While it is "fiction" it also has some serious implications about men and women and this is surely important to discuss. Cloaking the hatred of a gender under the guise of fiction is an old trick of the fems. Mary Daly is an example.
When people advocate hate they need to be aware of the implications and impact of this advocacy.
Please do tell us specifically what you are ashamed of, the titles of your books, and I am also curious about what you seem to think were attacks.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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by Anonymous User on Thursday December 05, @07:45PM EST (#39)
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And considering that men are already the disposable sex, (i.e. men die younger than women, we are the ones who are sent off and sometimes forced to fight the wars on the frontline, the economy depends on the cheapness of male life, men make up 94% of ALL work related injuries, accidents. and DEATH, it IS men who are stuck working in the death professions to take care of their WIVES and children, some of whom are girls by the way, men are the ones who are at risk of the most stress related illnesses, there are commericials that glorify women controlling men with a voodoo doll with her pliars on the dolls penis, women laugh in theaters at men being kicked in the balls, men are the main ones whom violence is committed against in movies, whereas when women die or in the relatively rarer instance murdered it is 'usually' a very dramatic scene and we feel and see her pain and individuality, we commit about 80% of all suicides and the number has been growing and it isn't even considered an epidemic, nor is their even commercials for "men" in particular to seek help for suicidal ideations, men are droping out of college while women make up 60-65% of college students and women are still considered the "disadvantaged" sex in education, we are filling prisons to the brim with men, men are the ones who we will not blink an eye at when the state murders one, and on top of all this I've have had constantstream of sexist/misandric propaganda for my soon to be 25 years of life, some of which from my mom and older sister. So YOU can get the hell off your self righteous podium if you can't handle a few guys and some women who have just had enough of male bashing that we are now starting to speak up this HATE SPEECH that is covered up in "fiction"/ and supposed entertainment of exterminating ME and ALL other men of the face of this dying planet. So sorry if we get a little ticked off at someone for glorifying me and my brothers death and ALL other men, F*&%K THAT. Sorry that it's too much for some to see mens individuality,autonomy, AND pain up close and for us to express outrage when WE are the disposable sex.
sorry too mens activists here who had to read my rant. I think I'm entitled to be upset about this. And a big thankyou to the women who say something when they see misandry, thankyou. Sometimes I think ya'll hate us. THank you for eberyone for writing back on that site.
Jesse
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sorry too mens activists here who had to read my rant.
There's no need to apologize, Jesse. You're among people who understand your outrage. It's good to see such solidarity in response to the hateful, though pathetically written, story in question.
As for this anonymous flamer, why do I suspect it's our little girlfriend, Mesmereyes?
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by Anonymous User on Thursday December 05, @09:25PM EST (#48)
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s for this anonymous flamer, why do I suspect it's our little girlfriend, Mesmereyes
I suspect the same. Our little troll smacks of her style.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday December 05, @09:27PM EST (#49)
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Yes, she probably thinks we're all a bunch of right wing fundementalists.
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she probably thinks we're all a bunch of right wing fundementalists.
You mean we're not? I thought this was www.rightwingfundamentalistactivism.com. Damn. I'm on the wrong board!
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As for this anonymous flamer, why do I suspect it's our little girlfriend, Mesmereyes?
Ummmm - maybe because she's on here as an anonymous coward, using transparently pheminine shaming language?
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Thursday December 05, @10:49PM EST (#53)
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Don't be sorry about the rant, Jesse; it was very inspiring.
When all men are working as slaves in the underground of society, rad fems will still be telling us that we have no right to complain because men are always the advantaged class.
Hey all, this is totally off-topic, but I think it's worth passing on... I've been noticing a stong pro-male attitude developing on my univerisity campus over the last couple years. People are writing letters to the editor speaking out FOR men's rights, and it seems to slowly be catching on. Call me optimistic, but I think people are beginning to see rad feminism for what it really is.
Of course, there are always wimmin coming out of the women's studies workshops spouting hate every once in a while, but their voice is becoming softer and heard less frequently. It is very encouraging.
-hobbes
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(("Call me optimistic,"))
-hobbes,
Okay, You're optimistic.
Siriously, though, I too am begining to sence something in the air, these days. It may not, yet be the death-nell of millitant feminism, but one can always hope.
'guess I'm a bit optimistic, too.
Thundercloud.
Hoka hey!
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The author labeled it as a work of fiction, science fiction, no less. Should we take away someone's creative expression? Or worse, someone's freedom of speech?
Let's see now. If a boy in high school writes a fiction novel on killing female classmates that boy is kicked out of school and sent to a shrink, but somehow it's okay for a woman to write a story about exterminating all males.
I'd say the questioning of the author is fair. What the feminist want is to be free of the masculist’s criticizing the ideology taught in the work. NOT! No way! Not any more.
The days of silence are over. Men have had enough. Only pantyhose feminist males support this form of bigotry. Get used to it.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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I don't where this idea that "it's only fiction" comes from. Feminists have been complaining about the depiction of women in any piece of fiction for years. This ranges from the depiction of rape to whether women as competent as the man in a movie.
I now see the discussion has closed again and all the posts have been deleted. My post was, as far as I was concerned, was about how the story was ill thought out and only seemed to be a vehicle for the message "let's exterminate the weaker sex - men", however I am apparently part of a he-man woman hating club, and I didn't get a chance to reply to that garbage. In a way it doesn't matter. Any response that suggested the story was hateful was dismissed as hateful and criticisms of the weak structure were ignored. Only responses that praised or suggested minor alterations seemed acceptable. You can't win with feminists like that.
I also wanted to add that the story wouldn't even be good enough for a feminists publishing house but now it says.
"This story has been removed at the author's request and is pending publication."
I don't believe it, unless it's a fanzine or something.
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I am apparently part of a he-man woman hating club, and I didn't get a chance to reply to that garbage. In a way it doesn't matter. Any response that suggested the story was hateful was dismissed as hateful and criticisms of the weak structure were ignored. Only responses that praised or suggested minor alterations seemed acceptable. You can't win with feminists like that.
The attack of calling use women haters because as men we object to bigotry is an old tactic. The idea is to paint themselves as victims so that the public will take their side. The correct strategy on our part is to identify the behavior, describe it, and ignore it. The public is smart enough to recognize a fair criticism.
It is interesting that the author is noted as having requesting the post be removed. Then she falsely claimed that it is gone to publication. This of course is an outright lie. Who is the audience? A feminist professor that hates men is the only other person that will read the hate story.
Oooo. I'm am so scaaaaarrrreeeeedddd! The author is turning in a hate paper to a male-hater! What else is new? She’ll think twice before reading the paper in public. I guarantee it.
Clearly, we kicked the ass of that male-hating feminist and many other feminists that were defending her. I'd say our response was a big win. We got exactly what we wanted, and we backed Trudy at the same time. BIG WIN!
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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Clearly, we kicked the ass of that male-hating feminist and many other feminists that were defending her. I'd say our response was a big win. We got exactly what we wanted, and we backed Trudy at the same time. BIG WIN!
It was fun. It was a victory. And we supported Trudy, when she asked for our assistance. I'll sleep well tonight.
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I am with you Thomas. I think that the fems are not used to seeing men stand their ground and the resulting whining and deleting is downright humorous. To leave that thread up would have been an embarrassment to them. Can't blame em. :>)
Stand Your Ground Forum
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Who is the audience? A feminist professor that hates men is the only other person that will read the hate story.
As the author of the piece wrote herself:
These "gender" pieces are touched up relics from college. My creative writing professor was a staunch feminist, and so... These stories managed to get me honors in the course! She was so easy to read, and far too easy to please; all we had to do was kill off all the men in the world and wham, A+.
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So stop being so self-righteous.
Nope.
Larry
Proud member of the Sperm Cartel
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So stop being so self-righteous.
Nope.
Erm... You're starting to sound like an uppity man to me, Larry. ;>)
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Erm... You're starting to sound like an uppity man to me, Larry. ;>)
Brother, I'm learning. :-)
Larry
Proud member of the Sperm Cartel
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