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I have to say, folks, that in the short time I've been a men's rights advocate, the issue of domestic violence is one in which I've seen a great deal of progress. I'm proud as I can be of the individuals who consistently write to the media about this issue, and who are--in the process--willing to put themselves up to ridicule by the unbelieving.
Great work, guys. Let's hope we can do as well in other men's issues as we've done so far on DV. And here's hoping we can do even BETTER on that issue.
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by Anonymous User on Thursday March 28, @09:07PM EST (#3)
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I know there are men who are abused, but shouldn't we focus more on the victims who are injured more often, when women are abused by men? Women are less likely to have the financial and emotional resources to leave an abusive relationship than men, and I think as men we have a responsibility to take care of women first and ourselves second. Please don't take this the wrong way, men should get support, but we should solve the most damaging problem first and then move on to others.
Charles
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I know there are men who are abused, but shouldn't we focus more on the victims who are injured more often, when women are abused by men? Women are less likely to have the financial and emotional resources to leave an abusive relationship than men, and I think as men we have a responsibility to take care of women first and ourselves second. Please don't take this the wrong way, men should get support, but we should solve the most damaging problem first and then move on to others.
I think you need to educate yourself more on this issue, Charles. Women are no more victims of DV than are men, and men are no less. See the other threads on DV on this site, including my recent column:
http://edge.net/~nitemist/domestic_violence.html
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Charles, will you go back and read what you wrote? "I think as men we have a responsibility to take care of women first and ourselves second." Why is it you believe this? Don't you believe men and women should have equal rights and dignity? I've known a lot of men who have the same sentiment as you, but I've never heard someone express this so explicitly.
Scott
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by Anonymous User on Thursday March 28, @10:46PM EST (#6)
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Nevermind, this web site is for people who hate women and whigne about their problems. I obviously walked into the wrong board. I'm sure the feminist site you link to doesn't appreciate your mockery of them. Maybe when you all grow up and get a life you'll see how childish you're acting.
Charles
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Nevermind, this web site is for people who hate women and whigne about their problems. I obviously walked into the wrong board. I'm sure the feminist site you link to doesn't appreciate your mockery of them. Maybe when you all grow up and get a life you'll see how childish you're acting.
Again, perhaps you should educate yourself. Oh, and ifeminists.com actually supports true equality of men and women under the law. Too bad you don't.
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by Anonymous User on Friday March 29, @06:18AM EST (#13)
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You've got that right Charles. If any of the men on this board had a speck of the courage that the battered women I've known have displayed they wouldn't be here complaining. Maybe they just can't get any pussy. Who knows?
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Tell it to my stroke-debilitated father, who put up with my ex-mother's abuse for years in order to protect me. . .and who is now crippled as a direct result of that abuse, but nevertheless is back working part-time, and still busting the recovery curve almost seven years later -- hanging tough, and staying proud.
Or no. . .better yet, tell me about the courage of the battered women you know -- me, the one who survived her deadly assault twenty years ago, yet nevertheless is today driving her to her opthamology appointments, bank, and shopping.
Yeah. No courage. Just forget about the way my skin crawls when I get near her. Just forget about the anxiety that her mere voice can cause me.
And just forget about the strength and self-discipline needed to keep caring for her without getting sucked back into her cycle of abuse.
Or, for that matter. . .yours
Thanks, but no thanks -- I'll pass.
Ack!
Non Illegitimi Carborundum, and KOT!
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You've got that right Charles. If any of the men on this board had a speck of the courage that the battered women I've known have displayed they wouldn't be here complaining. Maybe they just can't get any pussy. Who knows?
Nice Potshot from an anonymous troll! Like I've said before, care to season that bit of bombast with a few facts? Or is this just a seagull posting? Fly in, make noise, leave sh!t behind, and fly away?
Ah, but aren't anonymous cowards grand? Let's see the scorecard there - Citations, Zero; Supported Assertations, Zero; Substance, Zero, intellectual challenge, zero. Total Credibility: Zero! Oh, we're so sorry! But, hey, Thanks for playing! Johnny will show you what you've won on the way out! Johnny.....?
Right you are, Gonzo, and we have a case of SPAM! America's favorite food by-product....
Exeunt yon Moron.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Exeunt yon Moron.
Heh. Nice. :)
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Nice Potshot from an anonymous troll!
It's probably the same person posing as different people.
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Maybe Scott could configure the boards so that an anonymous poster's IP address is visible. That would nip double trolling in the bud. :)
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Maybe Scott could configure the boards so that an anonymous poster's IP address is visible. That would nip double trolling in the bud. :)
I'd even settle for changing the name from "Anonymous User" to "Anonymous Coward" a la Slashdot.
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Well, I dunno. For awhile, I had Win2K on my system and for some reason, I couldn't get the system to log me on automatically. Hence, I ended up coming on as an Anonymous User. Not sure I want to be labeled a coward just because of a technical difficulty. Perhaps, if Scott would be amendable, he could make Anonymous User a hyper-link, which would connect to an applet that displays the source IP address of the submitter.
Be aware, though, that the IP addresses of most home users is dynamic. So a user might have a lease on one address for a number of months, then not be online for awhile, and get a different one the next time online. Worse yet, a solid citizen who lives in the same domain as a troll COULD end up with her expired IP address.
We need to think about this more.
Frank
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Not sure I want to be labeled a coward just because of a technical difficulty.
Frank. Take muscles on corners of mouth. Tug upwards and laugh. The idea really is quite funny.
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Okay Warble I'll try.
It's just the engineer in me that seems to come out every so often.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday March 30, @09:51PM EST (#29)
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Okay Warble I'll try.
It's just the engineer in me that seems to come out every so often.
Yea. I know. It does cause us to see things too literally at times.
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Actually, though, I took the suggestion seriously and maybe we ought to give it more real consideration. These trolls really annoy me. They trot in here, drop a hand grenade on the table, and immediately head for the exits. I don't mind taking some heat when I say something controversial here ,and I have. But the trolls drop their grenade and laugh watching us scurry to get under the table and then climb out and defend ourselves. Given the grossly stupid things they say, with absolutely zero support for their arguments, I'd like very much to retaliate. Perhaps we ought to ask Scott eliminate the "anonymous user" capability. It's one thing to come here and look at what's being said, but anyone who submits a post ought to be required to provide SOME identifying handle, even when they feel compelled to offer only the mindless drivel spawned by genfems.
The word on the street ought to be that if you're gonna come here and defend feminism, you identify yourself somehow, and you come prepared to defend your suppositions.
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Try being a male victim and calling for help and seeing how the industry treats you. Try being an advocate for male victims and speaking out at these DV conferences run predominantly by bigots who don't care about victims if they happen to be male.
What difference does it make which group faces more harm on average? That doesn't justify discriminating against the victims who do need help. And about 38% of the severely harmed victims are male, hardly worth discriminating over even if the percentage did matter.
By that reasoning, maybe we should also ignore women with AIDS because men get AIDS more often. Maybe we should ignore women who are unemployed because, on average, unemployment devastates men more than women. Maybe we should ignore women who attempt suicide because men die from suicide more often. Your reasoning reflects precisely the bias that men face everywhere.
The childish comment about "pussy" doesn't deserve an answer. It only shows how little substance the opposition has.
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Try being a male victim and calling for help and seeing how the industry treats you.
Marc: could you send me an e-mail at nightmist@mensactivism.org. I could use your input and expertise for something I'm working on.
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...but shouldn't we focus more on the victims who are injured more often, when women are abused by men?
This is exactly what has happened. The results have been the loss of rights to due process on the part of men. In other words, a woman can make almost any allegation and be believed in court without any proof. Why shouldn't women experience the same loss of rights?
...I think as men we have a responsibility to take care of women first and ourselves second...
Why shouldn't there be equality between the genders in the sense of taking care of both equally? Why should women have a special protected status? I should point out that the stats demonstrate that men suffer far more violence (overall) in their lives than woman. If I use your justification, wouldn’t that make violence against men more important?
Please don't take this the wrong way, men should get support, but we should solve the most damaging problem first and then move on to others.
How is being hit by a hurled glass, stabbed, or shot less damaging to a man? How is it that emotional abuse is less damaging?
Is there some intrinsic mechanism in men that makes them immune to severe emotional abuse that I don't know about?
Please explain Charles. Really. I'd like to know.
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Notice the way the word "whine" was spelled. I think its one of our old-time trolls.
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Notice the way the word "whine" was spelled. I think its one of our old-time trolls.
Ya. It's just some feminist posing as a male and trying to start a flame fest. We should just ignore her.
Hummm....gives me a couple of ideas...Naw. Don't have the time to waste.
warble
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It is too bad that Charles made up his mind after only two people commented on his original post. I agree that some people who post here are very angry about the treatment of men and hold nothing back but, there are also many of us that temper our tempers and try to discuss issues without expressing our anger. There is nothing wrong with either person. Anyone that reads boards will quickly find there are different ways of expressing the same ideas.
The important part of anyone who asks about an issue is for them to have an open mind and avoid confusing the facs about an issue with their emotions about it. Since Charles was so quick to make a judgement about this site he came here not to discuss or challenge his belief about MEN as victims but to maintain his cognitive belief in the need for "men to protect" women, children and society.
I hope that his obvious lack of interest in male issues does not distract from the real purpose of this thread and article; the slow (painfully so)recognition by society of male victims.
I feel that we should write "dear abby" for her being open minded and recognizing male DV victims. I am SURE that there are some gender-fems that are sending letters of outrage about her daring to challenge the feminist perspective of DV.
Tony H
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I agree with your points, Tony. Charles was obviously irritated when his message was quickly challenged rather than accepted. Amusing yet predictable when he responded with the "woman hater" accusation. And we should write Abby and thank her for publishing Philip Cook's letter.
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by Anonymous User on Friday March 29, @06:09AM EST (#12)
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They're also much more likely to be stalked and murdered after they leave their abusive partner.
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Charles:
This case history is the normal case histroy for abused men. Stop and think before saying something ridiculous.
Stacey had a rocky dating history with many boyfriends dumping her due to her habit of throwing things while screaming insults. Eventually she married Steve and had two children with him. Steve wanted to leave Stacey due to her constant abuse and his physical injuries. Stacey, suspecting that Steve had told the doctor where his injuries came from formed a self defense plan: To ensure that her violence could never be brought against her Stacey charged Steve with domestic violence and got a restraining order against him. The charges where eventually dropped yet the damage had already been done to Steve and the children. Her violence drove her husband away and the family court judge gave her custody of their children. Furthermore, Stacey used Steve’s imaginary abuse as a weapon to allege Steve was hiding money from her. This resulted in the judge imputing Steve’s income and setting child support at three-quarters of his take home pay. An extremely angry Steve joined a local men’s group and dropped out within a year due to the massive amount of work needed to change the system. Stacey continued to abuse the children in spite of Steve’s objections. She dated many men. Yet, Stacey could not find a man willing to commit to her due to her abusive personality. After dating for four years Stacey met Jim whose strong personality attracted her. Unknown to Stacey, Jim liked to beat women. As Stacey’s abuse grew, Jim’s violence grew. After two years Jim beat her so badly that she nearly died. While Stacey was hospitalized, Steve had the children. He found them so badly damaged that only many years of therapy will put them back onto a road to mental health. Shortly after Stacey’s release from the hospital, Steve in deep frustration over his children’s abuse, his inability to resolve Stacey’s and the justice system’s abuse of him, killed himself.
the Volksgaren Project: Intelligent Abuse Recovery, http://clix.to/support/, jaxom@amtelecom.net, 519-773-9644
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by Anonymous User on Saturday March 30, @09:42PM EST (#28)
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What a load. Let's see now, you got all this information off a man who was accused of domestic violence himself? The fact that the second man the woman became involved with was violent strongly suggests to me that the first man was too. When women don't get counselling, the pattern continues.
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Let's see now, you got all this information off a man who was accused of domestic violence himself?
And who killed himself. Is that part of the profile of an abuser now?
When women don't get counselling, the pattern continues.
Well... yeah! Because the system refused to see her abusiveness, she didn't recieve effective counseling and continued in her ways until she hooked up with someone equally abusive. The refusal to see her as anything but a victim hurt her as well as those around her.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday March 31, @07:32PM EST (#32)
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Actually abusers quite often commit suicide, sometimes after murdering their spouses and children, in fact.
You obviously know very little about domestic violence. A woman who has supposedly been "abusive" to a man in one relationship would usually go on to choose a man she can be abusive to in next relationship. I doubt very much that an "abusive woman" would end up with a man so violent that she ends up in hospital.
This does not fit the pattern and I for one think the whole story seems mighty suspicious to me.
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You obviously know very little about domestic violence.
DUH!! Of course I know very little about domestic violence. But I do know enough about life to know that a mere accusation does not make a person guilty. Especially one the accuser materially benefits from making. It's a lousy basis to question his credibility and it's no basis to question Greg's credibility.
You seem knowledgeable. Please explain to me the patterns of the "abusive woman" so that I may know that this woman doesn't fit.
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Anon, would you be this suspicious if the genders were reversed? And if the woman committed suicide would you suggest that abusers often commit suicide? Just curious.
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Can you cite a study on your claim that abusers are frequent suicides? How often is quite often and how are these people known to have been abusers? Interesting idea but my guess is that it is more opinion than anything else.
Anon said:
"You obviously know very little about domestic violence. A woman who has supposedly been "abusive" to a man in one relationship would usually go on to choose a man she can be abusive to in next relationship"
It's been my experience that men and women in DV types of relationships are likely to have a family history of violence and are also likely to become a couple with a person who also has a family history of violence. This would actually make it likely that she would be attracted to a violent man.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday April 02, @07:43AM EST (#36)
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Watch the news occasionly. There have been frequent cases of men with a history of abuse killing their families and then themselves.
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday April 02, @07:50AM EST (#37)
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Women who have witnessed their father abusing their mother are much more likely to end up in a relationship with an abusive man. I thought that was common knowledge.
Some women go on to further relationships with abusive men if they don't get help.
I believe the "innocent man" in the story who was accused of domestic violence was as guilty as hell based on what is known about the cycle of domestic abuse.
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Women who have witnessed their father abusing their mother are much more likely to end up in a relationship with an abusive man. I thought that was common knowledge.
Common knowledge? Oh, yes, you mean the old "Every Schoolboy Knows" fallacy! That would be it.
Some women go on to further relationships with abusive men if they don't get help.
And some women don't. Some become lesbians, some hate men, some become doctors, lawyers, and checkout clerks at Wal-mart. Some join the U.S. Air Force. Some go on to attend Marian College in Indianapolis, Indiana. Some marry well, living in lifelong, healthy, committed relationships. It doesn't sound like there is an actual point here with you, AC.
I believe the "innocent man" in the story who was accused of domestic violence was as guilty as hell based on what is known about the cycle of domestic abuse.
Ah, here's the meat of the issue, translated from phemtroll-speak for the mono-lingual among us:
"Ugh! Phemtroll say male-thing never innocent! Ugh! Is Man! Man bad-thing! Bad! Woman Good! Woman victim! Woman victim ALWAYS! Ugh! Phemtroll say this so is so! Ugh! Shut up, evil man-thing, spread lies about good womans! Ugh! Ugh!"
I'll close the curtain on that sorry image, guys, before she starts grooming herself. Thank's so much for playing, phemtroll, and Johnny will show you the wonderful consolation prizes we have for you on your way out!
Flame Bait, mis amigos. An obvious atempt at provocation by a pheminist troll.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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I believe the "innocent man" in the story who was accused of domestic violence was as guilty as hell based on what is known about the cycle of domestic abuse.
Sometimes it's fun to respond to these wimmyn's studies majors. Our little troll here reveals the essence of the judicial system as it applies to a man -- he is presumed to be guilty because he was accused.
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I think as men we have a responsibility to take care of women first and ourselves second.
NO.
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I must say that I thought there would never be this kind of admission from Dear Abbey. I saw her a couple of weeks ago on T.V..
I specifically thought, "now there is a women that ignores the problem of female-male DV." Boy was I wrong. Good! Of course she had a little help from our friendly activists.
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Hey, Warble. I realize this is off-topic and I apologize to the other folks here for posting here, but I wanted to make sure you received the e-mail I sent to you yesterday.
Thanks, man.
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