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by Davidadelong on 05:50 PM January 9th, 2006 EST (#1)
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It is strange, but I have met some gay Women that say the same things about the Mens situation. It isn't anything that we as men don't live with every day, but for the most part are not allowed to express our frustration. A wonderful piece of journalism, and it seems to be honest as well. Perhaps there might be a trend? One can dream, one can surely dream.........
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by Thomas on 09:30 PM January 9th, 2006 EST (#3)
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I have met some gay Women that say the same things about the Mens situation.
When I was a grad-student, several of my friends were lesbians or bi-sexual women. At one point I almost went to bed with a bi-sexual beauty, but I'm afraid I got overexcited and it freaked her out a bit. Damn. Funny how that happens. Another time I almost went to bed with a lesbian couple, one of them pretty and the other flat out gorgeous. We got along great, but now I can't help but wonder if they were looking for a good sperm doner. Might be best that that one didn't work out either.
In any case, though there were a few man-haters, on the whole the lesbian and bi-sexual women were a blast to party with. I once went to a party where a buddy of mine and I were the only males out of about 50. They were all young and mostly attractive, but it sure wasn't a meat market, at least not for my buddy or me. Still, it was a kick.
Thomas
-- Creating hostile environments for feminazis since the 1970s.
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by gatsby on 02:27 PM January 10th, 2006 EST (#7)
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A trend may develop from this and further discussions made because of the fact that it was a woman, (even one dressed as a man) that is bringing the subject to light, not a big bad ol man. We are all painfully aware that nothing gets done in our society or is deemed as important unless it has the sanction/approval of women or is shown to negatively impact them.
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by Trueman on 04:13 PM January 10th, 2006 EST (#9)
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"We are all painfully aware that nothing gets done in our society or is deemed as important unless it has the sanction/approval of women or is shown to negatively impact them."
Aint that the truth. We don't get anything without their permission. And we're the ones keeping them down? Patriarchy my ass, it's more like matriarchy.
Chiverly died with the birth of Feminism.
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My only complaint is that now I am going to have to buy the book. I don't want to put out more money for books. I'm still not done the books I have!!!
I will be buying the book and I encourage other's to do the same. Let's encourage the market for this type of material.
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by Thundercloud on 10:48 AM January 10th, 2006 EST (#4)
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Vincent hits the nail on the head with her description of strip clubs.
It is for the very reasons she states why I refuse to go to any.
I would not assert power over another, but also I will not allow others to assert power over me.
In the one time I did go to a strip club I was repulsed at the fact that the other men there did not see the situation for what it was. They were being manipulated, controlled and made to pant and beg like the dogs these women view them to be.
I left and have never been to a so called "Gentleman's club" again, since.
I also saw this as a microcosm of the rest of society. It isn't ONLY in the strip clubs this is happening. It is rampant through ALL of society.
Which is why I'm pretty much a hermit...
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Davidadelong on 01:03 PM January 10th, 2006 EST (#6)
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Yeah, I used to go into them because they treated me nice, as long as my dollars held up. It was a place to dream for a short time. I watched the other guys forking over large amounts of money hoping to get some of that fine young tail. I have been without a Woman for 5 years, and I don't go into them anymore, because it is nothing more than masochism, psycho-sexual torture if you will. I still like to look though, and I have my dreams........You have to much to offer to society to become a true hermit Thundercloud! "Hoka hey!"
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by Thundercloud on 02:50 PM January 10th, 2006 EST (#8)
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Only FIVE years, David?
I'm coming up on my 15th year! (no I'm not kidding...)
I'm committed to this cause, no matter what!
Like you, though, I still like to look. But I see women as lava. They're neat to look at, but touch 'em and you burn, big time!
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Roy on 05:37 PM January 10th, 2006 EST (#10)
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It's difficult not to admire a dyke who masquerades as a faux-man and comes out of the experience reporting greater sympathy for heterosexual men.
What a strange source of insight.
(From the amazon.com editorial reviews --
"She creates rich portraits of the men she met in these places and the ways they behaved—as a lesbian, she's particularly good at separating the issues of sexuality from those of gender. But the most fascinating part of the story lies within Vincent herself — and the way that censoring her emotions to pass as a man provoked a psychological breakdown."
I don't know who's masquerade is weirder, this author's or my cousin's.
"Kimmy" is a 32 year-old vice-cop in Dallas who gets dressed up every night to impersonate hookers and thereby entrap men trolling for coochie in the downtown metro area.
She gets all slutted up in leather and Victoria Secret's apparel, and has an outstanding arrest record.
Ironically, she's a lesbian.
She has no desire for men whatsoever, yet men by the hundreds desire her and fall "straight" into her trap.
She has a mouth like an Alaskan merchant marine and tells really off-the-hook stories of life in vice.
And, like the book's author, she has a lot of sympathy for men that is uncommon among your heterosexual skank goldigger population.
An alliance between lesbians and MRA's would surely make for some excellent media coverage!
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by Davidadelong on 09:58 AM January 11th, 2006 EST (#14)
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The alliance that you speak of is already happening. Women that choose to live their life as gay are beginning to wake up to what is actually going on. They have empathy for Men, because society has started treating them like Men. They seek the same lack of control that Men do. The prize that Women have been duped into believing that is there at the end of the rainbow is no prize at all. The Women that have chosen to live like a Man are looking for alliances, because behind the current Womens movements is the intent of divide and conquer, Men need Women, and Women need Men.
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by Davidadelong on 10:07 AM January 11th, 2006 EST (#15)
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Five years that seem like a lifetime Thundercloud! I too am committed to initiating change, but if I ever meet a Woman that can first be my friend, and that I am attracted to, I do like to dream! As to your anology about lava and Women, yes, that is very appropo! I have been burnt to the bone, and the scars are deep. 15 years Brother, that Sir is a long time. "Hoka hey!"
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by Thundercloud on 12:09 PM January 11th, 2006 EST (#16)
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Well, personally, I gave up any hope of finding a decent woman that wouldn't burn me. But I am in my mid 40's and have learned a lot in that span of time. I have learned that most women are usually all smiles and sweetness, when you first meet them but as soon as they get into a relationship with you, especially marriage, they change, big time.
Gone is the shy smile and replaced by a demon from hell. I know that not all women are like that, but since they all seem nice when you meet them it's hard to tell which ones are being sincere and which ones are just "acting". By the time I would find out it was too late.
But that was in my younger days when I was still fairly attractive. Now I'm a big fat, disabled guy with a broken nose (from a street fight sucker punch I received) who walks with a limp and needs a cane, often, just to get around. There are few women who would be attracted to me, now. But it doesn't really matter anymore, any way. I gave up on them long before they gave up on me.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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Don't sweat it guys...for a 28-year-old black male who has experienced being toyed with, I just want to add this:
1.)Most of the strippers are either lesbians, whores, married, have bodyguards, or even slimebag boyfriends! They don't care about their customers.
2.)Everytime you go in, they don't welcome you in, but instead they get in your face [managers, bouncers, and waitresses].
3.)Very oppressive [bad dress code, forced tip despite their bad service, the danger of being led on, and the threat of being thrown out if you flirt with them [non/consensual]!
4.)Fights, and the fact that you can't be yourself when you go! You only make a bigger fool of yourself!
5.)Finally, they are such a waste of a man's time!
As for the tale of woman dressing as a man...that's good, because when she walks in our shoes, then she will understand that nowadays being a gent doesn't pay!
Oh...and Happy New Year to y'all! ;o)
Emmanuel Matteer Jr.
Emma.noelle.blay@hotmail.com
*****MASCULISM IS A BLACK MALE'S BEST FRIEND!!!!!*****
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by SacredNaCl
(tbessR3m0Ve2SendNEIN[SPAM]@R3m0ve.2.sendAt.mail.ru)
on 01:53 PM January 11th, 2006 EST (#18)
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I've always found strip clubs exploitive of men. I still have a friend who goes to them at much detriment to his finances, but I personally can't stand the places. I consider them little more than maximum cash extraction engines.
Freedom Is Merely Privilege Extended Unless Enjoyed By One & All.
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by Thundercloud on 01:04 PM January 13th, 2006 EST (#24)
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In my opinion Strip clubs are where men go because they want to control women, and women work their because they want to control men.
...kinda dumb, isn't it...?
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Hunchback on 11:27 AM January 10th, 2006 EST (#5)
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from the instruction manual of being an American man. At best she got a glimpse of the social life of men.
Too bad she couldn't absorb the harsher lessons that men must. She didn't experience the dangerous jobs, the lack of official interest in health concerns, the disparity in treatment in legal matters (criminal and family), etc.... As a lesbian, she explored the parts of being a man that most interested her: our interaction with women and each other. It's sorta like if J.H. Griffin had disguised himself as black then only hung out in pool halls.
At best the book's value is primarily for the dating scene crowd.
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by Roy on 06:14 PM January 10th, 2006 EST (#11)
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Since the book doesn't come out for another week or so, it would be interesting to speculate about why the authoress experienced a psychological breakdown during her undercover investigation.
The editorial blurbs (no reader's reviews yet) state it was that she had to suppress her emotions.
It appears that she was mostly interested in the interpersonal aspects of performing masculinity, and did not venture into societal/historical analysis very much.
Which is odd, given that the whole premise of the book assumes "the social construction of gender."
This book might make a great companion read with "Geisha..." a novel (now movie) about the performance of traditional idealistic femininity in Japan.
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by gatsby on 02:28 PM January 12th, 2006 EST (#22)
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Its like I said earlier, even if this book repeats the same premises that men have expounded on for years, no issue in our society is ever TRULY an issue without the consent of women. In the eyes of society, it takes a WOMAN to write about the plight of men before anyone gives it any validity. In my eyes, THIS is the true dynamic that must be explored in a book. Women frame the discussion and set the expectations of correct behavior for women to adhere to as well as men. We have lost even the power to define ourselves.
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by Fidelbogen on 09:53 PM January 10th, 2006 EST (#13)
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"As a guy, you get about a three-note emotional range. That's it as far as the outside world is concerned," she writes. "Women get octaves, chromatic scales of tears and joys and anxieties . . . but guys get little more than bravado and rage."
So what? Who cares??
This sounds a lot like my own emotional range she's describing, but the funny thing is that I really don't see it as a limitation. In fact, I actually LIKE it! I could frankly care less about those chromatic octaves of joys and tears which women supposedly enjoy. Who the hell needs it? Bravado and rage are suit me just fine, thank you! :-)
And I do believe that a lot of other men would share my sentiments here.........
The authoress comes across like a stereotypical feminist in this passage.
-Fidelbogen-
"Feminism has a rap sheet."
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by Thundercloud on 12:12 PM January 11th, 2006 EST (#17)
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I'm with you Fidelbogen.
I don't need "emotions for every occasion".
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by gatsby on 02:36 PM January 12th, 2006 EST (#23)
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I disagree fellas, not to get all Dr. Phil but it is a natural cause of frustration to feel as is you cannot express yourself. That expression may be with words or with the frustration that comes from always having to be the strong one, always being the one to "take the high road" and the adult in interactions with women. We are criticized for not expressing ourselves and being in touch with emotions but criticized when we do. The "sensitive" types that women claim we should aspire to are the ones that go home alone on Friday night while the knuckle dragging neanderthals seem to be the ones with all the options. Bottom line, no matter what we do, the fairer sex will want, (AND DEMAND), the opposite. It is in their nature to be contrary.
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by Earwig on 03:45 PM January 11th, 2006 EST (#19)
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Does she use it to try and redress the problems?
Does she go on Oprah to tell the cheesecake nation what the real problem they got with men is?
No, right, sorry. She decides to cash in.
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Rand T. writes "