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by Anonymous User on 01:56 PM June 20th, 2005 EST (#1)
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Our Achilles heel , it seems to me, is the Y chromosome. This accursed chromosome compels us to engage in combat with our fellow men. Whatever injustice the feminazis inflict on us, we ultimately react by fighting each other. I think it was Ray who said it was easier to herd cats than to get men to unite against feminazis.
How different women are! On every gender issue the feminazi hierarchy decide which course of action to follow, and the feminazi stormtroopers immediately march in unison, sublimating their own personal beliefs for the feminazi cause. Whatever you think about the Nazis in WW2 , you have to admire their singlemindedness and discipline. Same goes for the Feminazis to-day.
Hotspur
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by Anonymous User on 04:11 PM June 20th, 2005 EST (#2)
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From the second link --
"The (F4J)campaigners grew in prominence after members dressed as superheroes mounted famous landmarks.
Fathers 4 Justice says it has expelled those members."
So, the first cohort of revolutionaries has already been banished by those seeking to bureaucratize the movement?
Shades of revolutionary Cuba, Grenada, and Nicaragua!
It's hard to tell, even reading between the lines, what actually caused this rupture. Charges of financial and organizational mismanagement are an easy smokescreen for deeper leadership, strategic, and philosophical conflicts.
The F4J faction's decision to hold a moratorium on protest actions to bargain for change from the government's child custody agency seems to be the fuse that lit the powder keg.
It's always a critical moment in any insurrectionary movement when the powerless begin to get a taste of power.
Every successful revolutionary party in history has eventually, after acquiring power, devolved into a quasi-fascist State, without exception.
The more astute Marxists at N.O.W. must be having a good chuckle right now.
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by Anonymous User on 05:15 PM June 20th, 2005 EST (#3)
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AU writes, "The more astute Marxists at N.O.W. must be having a good chuckle right now. "
They are....
Yet they won't laugh for long as the cycle of activism continues. There will come a time when they will find themselves in a real war.
Then the Marxist-Feminists will wonder what they did to deserve the war. They will of course think they are the innocent victims.
Warble
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by Raymond Cuttill on 05:23 PM June 20th, 2005 EST (#5)
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The feminists will laugh, but the bubble is bursting. Father's rights are now an issue thanks to Matt O'Connor and the others. ost of the breakaway group want to keep the pressure up. Men's issues are starting to be recognized by men.
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by Anonymous User on 12:49 AM June 21st, 2005 EST (#6)
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"It's always a critical moment in any insurrectionary movement when the powerless begin to get a taste of power."
I remember a History Instructor telling me that Thomas Paine, one of the main incendiary propagandist of the American Revolution was a great asset to have when the Founding Fathers were agitating and fighting for their freedom. However, after the colonies won independence, Paine continued to agitate until he was a real, well, pain in the butt. The story goes that they shipped him off to France to agitate there for their revolution. I guess with Thomas Paine, agitation was more than just vituperative behavior seeking to redress grievances.
Anyhow, the History Prof concluded the story by saying that after Paine died an American shop keeper dug up Paine’s bones and hung them in his shop window with a sign that said, "If Thomas Paine were alive today, he'd buy at my store," or words to that effect. I guess the shopkeeper was hoping that the indomitable persuasiveness of Paine would somehow work through the vulgar association with Paine’s bones.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the men's movement, IMHO, needs to have an eye on the big picture, and all facets in between. After the revolution, the Founding Fathers took that next step in the implementation of their vision. Apparently F4J has discovered what Tom Paine and the Founding Fathers learned, that managing success (even moderate success) can be harder, than achieving success. Ask Tom Paine. His bones don’t lie.
Fortunately for MRA’s in CA, the gender feminists are working overtime to insure that we don’t have too much success so we aren’t burdened with the encumbrances of new directions. We struggle on in the spirit of the annoying Mr. Paine.
Ray
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by Anonymous User on 11:23 AM June 21st, 2005 EST (#8)
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It's maybe worth noting in light of the announced split in F4J into two groups that differ only over tactics, not goals ---
Feminism Inc. has survived numerous fractures into seemingly dozens of flavors of feminism, including gender-fems, lesbian-fems, N.O.W.-fems, i-Fems, Christian-fems, and even Hugo-fems (anti-MRA male feminists.)
These divisions do not seem to have resulted in the self-immolation of feminism, and one would assume that some degree of disunity is a sign of achieved power and maturation.
Like feminists, MRA's are going to come under the Big Tent of men's rights with a variety of political and spiritual perspectives and their own personal causes.
Fathers for Justice is providing a valuable case study of the emergence and evolution of perhaps the most publicly and politically successful men's group to date.
(In just over a year, F4J has created a national debate in the U.K. that was simply off the mass media radar screen until they started their super-hero protests. Now, it seems the powers-that-be want to negotiate with F4J about solutions to father's grievances.
Frankly, I think what scares the crap out of the vested interests is that F4J gained its clout without ever trying to use the "proper channels...." and in so doing proved "The Emperors Have No Clothes.")
I plan to follow closely F4J and RealF4J and learn from their pioneering courage.
What lessons can MRA's apply here in VAWA-merica?
(Roy)
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by Raymond Cuttill on 05:19 PM June 20th, 2005 EST (#4)
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I've always said that men work best as a team (from their hunting days) and women work best as a community (from the gathering/child rearing days). Thus for women worrying about someone else's problem is automatic (This doesn't mean they always do it or always mean it). Men operate best as a team. Give us a task (get a man on the moon) and we can get it done, but ask us to worry about someone else and it is not automatic, but it does happen. We tend to compete with each other (Women want this and exploit it) but once we decide the goal is a change of government (revolution) then it often happens.
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by Roy on 12:10 PM June 21st, 2005 EST (#9)
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Ray wrote --
"I've always said that men work best as a team (from their hunting days)..."
That's an excellent image to keep in mind during these early days of the men's rights revolution.
MRA's today seem occasionally to bemoan the lack of unity in our movement; while the rad-fems enjoy the zombie-like unity of their lockstep "sisterhood."
But way back in the ancient times, the hunting team needed all kinds of talented men.
One might even suggest that putting food on the cave-table or the tribal campfire required a true respect for diversity!
Some hunters were fast runners and could scare up a herd of prey. Some were great distractors, and could spook the prey to move into the trap. Some were excellent at disguise, and could wear an animal hide and infiltrate themselves right into the middle of the herd. Some were physically weak, but excellent at tactics and communication and surveillance. Some were able slayers, and could efficiently kill the prey, once all their comrades had capably done their other, critical jobs.
Without getting too mytho-poetic, its easy to draw parallels between those ancient hunts and the contemporary quest to extinguish Feminism, Inc.
There is always room for another member of the team, and tactics are always flexible ....
so long as they agree upon the prey.
"It's a terrible thing ... to be living in fear."
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In some ways maybe this is good news. If they are instituting a moratorium on protests then a split now between factions likely means that a portion of the group will continue the protests while a portion of the group will take the legislative angle. This is exactly what is needed. A radical group and a more "palatable" group. They work hand in hand. The radicals scare the crap out of the status quo and the "palatables" deal with the legislators to bring change. We need "Thomas Paines" and we also need "Ben Franklins."
Join us July 15-16 in Wash. DC Glenn Sacks, Warren Farrell, Scott Garman, J Kamme
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by Roy on 02:01 PM June 24th, 2005 EST (#10)
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Real Fathers for Justice leader Graeme Cook surveys the developments of recent weeks and the circumstances behind the split in Fathers 4 Justice in an essay published 23 June '05.
I found this to be a reasoned and credible explanation that confirms the behind-the-scenes personality conflicts and the dangers of hubris in leadership.
The account also suggests that F4J's ability to bargain with the national child support agency by having a moratorium on protest actions is largely a fiction and a tactical response to losing the majority of the original cadre to the new RF4J.
(Excerpts-)
"Rather than slugging it out with O'Connor and Hatch in the media, and risk damaging the reputation of the campaign still further, Real Fathers for Justice has chosen instead to focus on establishing the infrastructure of the fledgling organisation, and on responding to the demand from disaffected F4J members who are turning to the new group in droves.
Several regional F4J groups have already voted to turn 'real' (the new group is honouring existing F4J memberships), and the establishment of the new web presence and members' discussion forums has accelerated its already rapid growth.
The groundwork for the new group is now substantially complete, the interim management committee will shortly meet again nationally to consolidate a strategy to reinvigorate and carry forward the campaign for equal parenting."
http://news.realf4j.org/index.php?itemid=2
"It's a terrible thing ... to be living in fear."
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