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by mcc99 on 05:13 PM May 13th, 2005 EST (#1)
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So, Japanese men are so busy groping Japanese women on trains that it requires women-only train cars?? Having lived in Japan I can tell you from the experience of riding the subway every day for 6 months to and from a job that there does not seem to be rampant groping on subway trains, at least not that I could see. Now let's take other such conditions to their (il)logical conclusions: if it's true that some women are dangerous to the well-being of children since some of them are child-abusers (most child abuse being done by women in fact), should women women thus not be allowed to be around children?
I foresee a day when there is in some western nation an enforced gender-Balkanized society where men are only allowed in certain places and women allowed anywhere, not unlike the Jim Crow South for blacks and whites or Muslim countries for men and women. Is this what the Japanese want? Is this what Americans want?
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by Dittohd on 07:48 PM May 13th, 2005 EST (#2)
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>I can tell you from the experience of riding the subway every day for 6 months to and from a job that there does not seem to be rampant groping on subway trains, at least not that I could see.
As tight as they pack everyone in on those commuter trains, train personnel going as far as pushing the last person in as hard as he can to help get everyone squeezed in like sardines so as many persons as possible can ride, how would you even know a woman was groped if she didn't scream?
By the way, in conditions like this, who would need to "grope" women. It's just a matter of making sure you get next to the right woman and staying there while everyone else squeezes in around you, forcing the two of you closer and closer together. I must admit, though, once forced into a position like this, it must be really hard not to grope! Ha! Ha! Ha!
I'm sure it happens because it almost happened to my girlfriend when I was with her on a train in Japan. There weren't enough seats so I let her sit while I stood in front of a guy who was sitting beside her. As the train was going along, this guy slowly tried to put his arm around her, moving his arm little by little. As soon as I saw what this guy was doing, I moved progressively closer and closer to him, leaning closer and closer to him while staring intently at him. After a few of his moves and my subsequent moves, he finally realized the situation and removed his arm back into his lap. When we got off the train, I told my girlfriend (now my wife) and found she had been totally oblivious to the whole thing! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Dittohd
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by Anonymous User on 08:04 PM May 13th, 2005 EST (#3)
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That's exactly where things will be headed if our equal protection laws are not enforced. Even if they're enforced, feminists will find ways to avoid that using their numerous tactics as well as international law, where they are focusing more and more attention lately.
Marc
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by Anonymous User on 03:31 PM May 15th, 2005 EST (#4)
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Though not recently, I have lived several years in Japan (my wife is Japanese), and have spent countless hours on trains there, but never witnessed any evidence of the problem. Which isn't to say, of course, that it hasn't developed. But even assuming that the "gropers" (chikan, as they are called in Japanese) have become numerous and present a real problem, I'm both surprised and dismayed at this "solution" (which isn't really a solution to the problem, but, as someone else mentioned here, merely an accomodation of the problem).
Some of the women who have been interviewed on Japanese television talk of how they experienced groping, and had to put up with it in silence. It's partly a cultural thing, that the Japanese are so inhibited about outbursts in public, or yelling at someone, but I think that in the long run this approach of segregation will backfire. It sends the message that women are weak, unassertive, can't stand up for themselves, and will be in perpetual need of special dispensations and protection, and a corollary of such a conclusion is that they are not strong enough to be entrusted with positions of responsibility.
We'll be visiting Japan soon with my 20-year-old daughter, and we'll be riding lots of trains. I hope no one makes unwanted advances on her, but I also hope that she'll be strong enough to give him the elbow or shout him down if he does.
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by Anonymous User on 05:02 PM May 15th, 2005 EST (#5)
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As usual us men are always the bad guys.
Pete in Nebraska
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by Anonymous User on 02:32 PM May 16th, 2005 EST (#13)
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My question is this;
If segrigation of Blacks and Whites was WRONG, then how the hell is the segrigation of male and female RIGHT?
I have heared again and again how "Wrong" segrigation was (is).
And yet, here it is again, just as blatant and just as stupid.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Anonymous User on 05:24 PM May 15th, 2005 EST (#6)
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It's basically the same shit, men are the bad guys and women always good. Groping, only men do it? Bullshit! I used to hang out in a club in where the help including the bartenders were mostly female. I have had my ass slaped, grabed, hands run over it and all on a routine basis. One of the bartenders just called me "baby" her partner many times called me "my love" and I would get invited to sit with them from time to time when they played sex trivia on the vidio game. They saw to it that I sat in the middle of things so they could observe my reactions. Sometimes on the way out I would be detained for a little conversation. No I was not offended by this. What normal man would not like this kind of attention from younger attractive women. Oh and one other thing, I was not any kind of big tipper, many nights there they would not charge me and I would go the entire evening not paying for a thing.
The point is it is not just men who engage in this kind of behavior. From my observation women are just as guilty maybe even more so. In my case even if I were offended I would have kept my mouth shut. It irks the hell out of me that we men are always portrayed as the bad ones doing this shit to women.
Pete in Nebraska
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by Anonymous User on 08:31 PM May 15th, 2005 EST (#7)
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I seem to remember an article complaining that Japanese men weren't having sex with their wives. So Japanese men are groping strangers in subways, but they're not interested in sex with their wives? Sounds strange to me. I would guess the explanation is either misandristic reporting or misandristic wives.
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by Raymond Cuttill on 09:08 PM May 15th, 2005 EST (#8)
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Looks like an excellent opportunity for Gemaine Greer or any of the Manhater SS to be invited to Japan, so they can spread their misandry. So far as I know the western feminism has yet to spread there, but this could be the start of it.
A worst case scenario perhaps, but here is what could happen. The women are encouraged and start to like special places for themselves that they “need”. They get quiet places in trains, internet cafes and other places. There’s more room and they can natter (talk incessantly) freely to other women. Something they like anyway. They can discuss men. They can easily male bash without being challenged. Since they like these roomy railway carriages and internet cafes, in a country that’s quite jammed anyway, they begin to talk up the problems. Harassment becomes a real issue. Maybe even a “1 in 4” figure will appear from some pseudo-scientific study. (I don’t think they have women studies in the universities yet..). Of course, they can always expand the definition. Looking twice at a women or looking at her in a way she doesn’t like (that “intimidates” her), could be included. Anyway the men they used to get along with are now all “loud and obnoxious” and they “need” more of these roomy, quiet, special privilege, luxury areas for women only in all sorts of situations. Men, of course, will not need anything and have to sit or stand in jam-packed carriages and full internet cafes, whilst increasingly under attack for their “privileged” position. During all the time groping doesn’t stop or even reduce (after all, a few prosecutions and fines might stop the problem and then what would women complain about and they wouldn’t need their special carriages)
Let’s hope the anti-women’s carriages group succeed in bringing some sense to it.
Incidentally from the railway press in the UK 1845-1906
Women on the rails I: passengers
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by ArtflDgr on 08:52 AM May 16th, 2005 EST (#10)
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Let’s hope the anti-women’s carriages group succeed in bringing some sense to it.
Incidentally from the railway press in the UK 1845-1906 Women on the rails I: passengers
thanks so much for that.
while reading through the first article i said to myself... Self: This is the finest example of stealth oppression i have ever seen!
while looking i found some interesting oppressive quotes.. (note that the date for this is the 1880's, what most would think of as the HEIGHT of feminine oppression inthe modern age)
Not a syllable, therefore, shall be uttered here, either to discredit the proffer of this particular accommodation to those who deserve all we can give them
Even as to these precious objects of care, we are not sure whether, if they must travel alone, this will be found the right way for protecting them, in the long run.
but to be fair... as i always try...
you can also see here how a lesbian would be totally abandoned and not capable in society for she would have no escorts, and a later article poitns out that without one it would be easier to stay home. they also point out though that in general the worste she would get is a few remarks, and perhaps a cat call.
it is not hard to see how without some special special consideration the lesbians of the early century were straded and void the that other women took for granted.
this also shows why it took so long to effect change. the average woman did not have this problem. they had brothers, and fathers, and other males around as general protectors.
the most interesting thing, i think, is to note that by pressing this issue for the few disenfranchised they disproved their point! if they were truly opressed then they would never have accomplished what they did. the disinfranchisation of ALL woman rather than a few. in this case, misery really did want and love her company.
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by Anonymous User on 08:16 AM May 16th, 2005 EST (#9)
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I have read about this before it got to the states... what i think it is is a reaction to a new popular 'reality' porn that is being sold. Its in the same category as up the skirt, or under the desk, etc shots... you don thave to be into these things to know whats happening out there on the net... i think its something like groped asians dot com and such...
they film a young woman surrounded by men and they basically surround and grope her. this is not your daddies froterism! this is outright not nice. it is unclear whether the lady is acting or not. they have been posting off topic to news groups and so if you download the right thing, you end up with a film clip with a link. call it ambush advertising...
It would be easy to see someone showing such "pasttimes" to officials and they respond as if the thing is real out to protect the women.
the real issue is what happens when the cars are full. japan commutes are really really nasty as far as crowding. so if the ladies cars are empty you will get protests as people cant fit into the other cars. there is also questions as to what happens to a man that gets intot he wrong car.. and what happens when there is a husband and wife...
this wont fly in the states as we dont have the $$$ to spare on the infrastructure... not to mention that if the women do business on the train then the same shit that broke up all male only areas would apply and then there would be grounds for suits...
if they really want to live a life isolated from men. they will also have to accept the fact that you will also stop positive things from happening, and create more negative things as well..
men and women may no longer meet and perhaps start dating and marry (i know many are against that too, but some still hope that in the right cases they can be with someone too).. and terorrists would LOVE a woman only car!!!! can you say "target of oppourtunity"...
Oft times today, what we do to help, causes more harm. and then we are too stupid to back up, but try to find some other patch on the patch on the patch... personally i think thats one of the sadest things feminism brought forth. the same kind of ideologue stupidity that causes the soviets to crash..
you can only patch things so far, then you have more patch than what your patching!!!
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by Kyo on 10:30 AM May 16th, 2005 EST (#11)
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I'm the one who originally posted the article and have lived in Japan for many years.
To tell the truth, I'm actually encouraged by how many women are capable of criticizing their own gender and pointing out unfair advantages that they have. It's very refreshing after spending time in western countries. For example, on my first day on the job, I commiserated with a young female employee who had to make tea for the bosses every day, and she correctly pointed out that making tea is a small price to pay for being able to get home on time every day, value her family over her job, and be able to plan after-work activities without assuming that she'll be in the office until the last train -- luxuries that male emplyoees don't have! I was very impressed, and am encouraged by the fact that both men's problems (overwork and a lack of family life) are considered just as valid as women's problems (such as difficulty in workplace promotion and an expectation that their husband's career is more important than theirs).
Aside from the trains, there was an entire floor in the Hankyu Department Store in (I think) Osaka which was reserved for women -- male employees couldn't even go there. But again, there were a few women who thought that that was discrimination in their favor. I can't imagine anyone voicing such opinions, especially in the media, in western countries. So while there are a few special perks for women that even westernf eminists haven't grabbed, there are at least a few people speaking out against them.
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by Anonymous User on 02:24 PM May 16th, 2005 EST (#12)
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I will predict here and now that unless things change we WILL see a day where men (ALL men) are litteraly told to ride in the back of the bus.
I can still remember when I was a kid about age 6, out in Arizona, I saw a sighn outside a tavern that read;
"NO DOGS OR INDIANS
ALLOWED!"
I am now waiting for the day (which I believe will be realitvely soon) that I again will not be allowed in places. Not because I'm an Indian but because I am a man.
Same thing, just for a different reason.
This is PROGRESS?
This country just keeps moveing backwards when it comes to civil and constitutional rights. And appearantly our neighbors, like Japan and others are following suit.
What is it about "civilized" society(s)? Why is SOME group ALWAYS a target for bigotry, while another group is put on a pedestal? What the hell...?
As Indian people we have already expirienced over 500 years of oppression and bigotry. (and not just by Whites) NOW we are going to be discriminated against FURTHER if we happen to be MEN?
Again I ask; 'This is PROGRESS??'
If this is progress I'd really hate to see REGRESSION...!
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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[an error occurred while processing this directive]
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Kyo writes "Japan's "women-only train car" fad is covered by the Wall Street Journal