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It wasn't the same protestor who stood on Buckingham Palace balcony, that was Jason Hatch.
Feminism will continue as long as there is money to be made from hating men.
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by Anonymous User on 06:05 PM November 20th, 2004 EST (#2)
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Chief executive Janet Paraskeva, who was sitting next to Mrs Hodge when she was handcuffed, said: "The Law Society is appalled by the behaviour of Fathers 4 Justice."
Janet, you should be appalled at the anti-male bias of family law. It's apparacheks like you who prevalent change. Maybe you could buy a social conscience at a garage sale.
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by Anonymous User on 01:36 PM November 21st, 2004 EST (#12)
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I just wish we had more men like that in THIS country. (U.S.A.)
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Anonymous User on 07:23 PM November 20th, 2004 EST (#3)
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"handcuffs himself to Children's Minister Margaret Hodge"
I see were F4J is coming to the U.S., but I have my doubts that the same tactics will work here.
Let's see, if an off duty LAPD officer sees this guy running for a female official, he pumps 18 rounds from his 9 mm into the perps back then yells, "Stop police!"
If somehow the guy does chain himself to the official he will face: assault, false imprisonment, hate crime (intimidating a woman), and I'm sure there are some other charges they will dig up. When he stands before the judged he will probably be looking at 3 or 4 felony charges, 10+ years in jail and thousands in fines.
So how is F4J going to help Fathers and men in America?
Ray
O.K. I exaggerated, if the LAPD officer were off duty he would probably only have a six shot 38 special, with a spare speed loader of six more rounds. Welcome to America. Welcome to the wild, wild west. Anbody ever hear of the LAPD Rampart Division scandal? LAPD is still under federal oversight due to that major scandal.
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by Anonymous User on 07:46 PM November 20th, 2004 EST (#4)
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I forgot to mention the part were LAPD plants weapons or drugs on a citizen. When that happens your prison sentence just goes up another 20 years. That and more happened in the Rampart division, and it goes on in other parts of LAPD.
Do they have racial and ethnic rape gangs in England waiting for white guys? Read about prison rape in America here - No Escape
In Los Angeles the citizens are fearful of the criminals, but it's the cops that really scare the living hell out of everybody.
"To Protect and To Serve," is the motto of the LAPD, but the serve part only applies when they're sitting on their butts being served donuts and coffee, and the protect part only applies to their covering each others butts like when the L.A. riots happened and they ran off and left that poor truck driver to get his brains beat out by a mob.
I'm going to be really upset with F4J, if F4J adds more trouble to already over burdened American men. You'd had better make sure you know what you're doing here before you get people into more trouble than they can ever get out from under.
Sincerely, Ray
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Ray, I think you're missing the point about Fathers 4 Justice. I've been through this argument before, about how F4J won't work in the USA, because the country's too big or the cops are too mean. You are simply taking one high-profile stunt by F4J and saying that won't work in the USA. It could be true that in certain circumstances protesters could be shot. I am not clear how concerned you are about this. This however is not the point. The number one thing F 4J is about is publicity, drawing attention to the father's plight. Possibly you haven't noticed but in addition to the high-profile stunts there has been countless press releases, interviews with Matt O'Connor and marches and low profile stunts. This did not occur overnight. F 4 J is nearly two years old. This has built up over that period and has been designed to get the right kind of publicity.
If the F4J USA coordinator is as good as Matt O'Connor at PR and publicity then he will choose the right kind of stunts at the right time. Part of this will be to be very in your face. I do not know as much about the history of the father groups in the USA as in the UK but if it is similar then perhaps you have had groups asking politely for 30 years. Until F4J came along there was no mention of child custody concerns anywhere in the media in the UK. Following the two years of F4J we now have politicians saying, "I am not influenced by a F4J but I think something should be done about family law" (An incredible coincidence that they should mention it now.)
Ray, as I say if it is done right you can expect to see the same sort of thing in the USA, not exactly the same thing but the same sort of thing, and it will work. I don't know if you're a betting man. Maybe it's illegal where you live, but I'd be willing to bet real money that, say in a couple of years time, you could have national papers and national TV discussing father's rights. Any takers?
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Three things...
1 This was NOT on the BBC evening news (although it was on other news channels and the web site)
2 The current F4J actions are an extension of previous less high profile acts. Like standing outside courts and protesting.
3 I actually thought about this and what woould be the response if this happened in the US. As you say the consequences could be very sad.
You'd had better make sure you know what you're doing here before you get people into more trouble than they can ever get out from under.
In another thread I advocated using letter writing and generally supporting thoses who speak out on injustice. This is what initially happened with the mens movement in the UK. F4J went for high profile protests as, I think, they believed the letter writting wasn't working.
Since the US can be more extreme in its reaction than the UK, letter writing maybe the safer course of action.
Another alternative is to have large groups of men dressed as super heroes at relavent venues, who are completely silent. Yep say nothing, just be there. No violence, no speech, just be.
If enough events take place, people will get the idea.
I know that the US has a completely different approach to these things and UK methods will not work. It is then upto the US folks to do their own thing in their own way to get their message across. Note, the comments you make could in fact be used as to why your protest isn't like F4J.
The alternative is what?
be well,
west
These are just my thoughts and interpretations, F4J and MRAs can speak for themselves.
(btw, violent crime is high in the UK and rising)
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by Anonymous User on 09:19 AM November 21st, 2004 EST (#8)
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"Another alternative is to have large groups of men dressed as super heroes at relavent venues, who are completely silent. Yep say nothing, just be there. No violence, no speech, just be."
What about signs? Wouldn't just one or two enormous signs be good?
Most of the U.S. is not like Southern California (Hollywood atmosphere). I wore an Uncle Sam head, and put a "Don't Tread on Me" flag (cape) over my back and attended a protest on Hollywood Blvd., but I was underdressed for the place. It was a Saturday, and people were routinely dressed and on the street as: Charlie Chaplin, Rambo (with big toy RPG), a Star Wars storm trooper, Spiderman, Batman, Santa Claus, etc. If you go to Venice Beach you'll fit right in to the carnival atmosphere and no one will pay attention to you there either. Now if you put on a three piece suit, and went to Venice Beach or Hollywood someone might notice you. I suppose if you were dressed as a super hero in the downtown business/government area people might turn their head, but probably wouldn't give it much attention. A typical reaction might be, Oh look, another California freak (yawn). What elese is new? (yawn, yawn)"
Again, the big sign with 7 words are less is needed to explain what it's all about.
I suspect New York might be a lot like L.A. in that respect, probably Orlando too (Disney world, Universal City).
I've often thought if I were picketing a courthouse in L.A., and wanted to dress up I might wear this outfit with the aritstocrat's wig
here
and carry this on a 30" X 40" sign here
Ray
Please do not scroll up the page of the linked item(s). All the info I'm trying to convey is as the page initially comes up.
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These "cafepress" signs are horrible. Bad colours, bad choice of fonts and so on. I have no idea why you keep promoting them here, I could probably produce something better with Clip Arts and OpenOffice if I had the time.. and I'm a very bad designer.
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by Anonymous User on 01:19 PM November 21st, 2004 EST (#11)
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"I have no idea why you keep promoting them here, I could probably produce something better with Clip Arts and OpenOffice if I had the time.. and I'm a very bad designer."
That's why I put the disclaimer at the bottom of each post. The radical/gender feminists share your opinion. One feminist web site poster, after others had criticized the site, made this statement, "Who would wear such things?" Answer, "Thus far lots of people in half the 48 contiguous United States and 3 foreign countries (as reflected by site purchases in less than one year). The truth is, "I personally don't care if people buy them or not." I just want oppressed men to get more active and speak out, and part of the profits does go to NCFM. We do have to cover the monthly site fee for the shop, and the site does charge a minimum for the T-shirts. In fact, I'm such a lousy businessman that I have personally spent more than the profits this year on activism (way, way, way more). As I said, the pupose of the primary purpose of the site is to help get the word out on men's issues.
Since you have stated your superior abilities at design I look forward to seeing what great art will look like. When can we look forward to the illumination of your brilliance? Oh, but that's right, you said you didn't have the time, just time to critique. I guess your stuck with my vulgar, classless American taste representing the only men's activism web site for now. Get used to it, or you could always find the time and start your own web site. I for one would welcome the competition and the further attention that this would bring to men's issues.
When it comes to being a men's activist my attitude is lead, follow, or get out of the way. In most of areas of life as in men's activism, we seem to have an abundance of critics, but a shortage of "doers." I will now tell you what my CBO at work told me the last time I brought him a problem, without bringing him a solution, "Next time you come to me with a problem, bring me the solution." That was 15 years ago. In other words, we "yanks" are very action oriented and would rather be proactive (solution oriented), even if we don't have the best idea. The funny thing is that we do tend to accomplish a lot of tasks we set out to accomplish, although I'll be the first to say that "some of them" could be better quality.
Here's a classy little T-shirt I'm going to wear when I return to Germany on the 120th anniversary of my families departure from Germany. I will be wearing it as my foot steps off the plane and touches German soil for the 1st time in my life. Is there an upscale place we can meet for a cup of coffee with the high brows. I sincerely hope you won't be too embarrassed to be seen with your former "homey?"
click classy little number
Thanks for the insights.
Sincerely, Ray
Please do not scroll up the page of the linked item(s). All the info I'm trying to convey is as the page initially comes up.
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>These "cafepress" signs are horrible. Bad >colours, bad choice of fonts and so on. I have >no idea why you keep promoting them here, I >could probably produce something better with >Clip Arts and OpenOffice if I had the time.. and >I'm a very bad designer.
Gracious, you are quite rude. I'm quite honestly stunned. If you manage to find the time, have fun designing a better product. In the mean time, Ray's products HAVE already gotten people thinking [I know at least of one girl at my school] and I know he has stories of dozens more who have seen the words, with the "bad choices" and all, and actually started to think about men's rights. Which has done and will continue to do more than your snide insults.
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"It diminishes the debate and in no way serves the interests of children or their parents."
I believe that these men have given up on the "debate" aspect, as even judges have said that there is nothing that they can do.
I can see the stunts escalating to the point of violence, The numbers of Fathers for Justice keep on growing exponentially, so this is a big group of disenfranchised people who will eventually get more and more irate with the inequalities that they face on a daily basis.
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Ok placards are good....
Though my style would definately be more subtle! Like:-
"In The Best Interests Of The Children"
Also, just a thought....
Instead of superheroes, why not have everyone dress as an American Football Team. Identical full kit (with palcards!) and just stand there. Others could then be supporters - come as you please - or even cheerleaders - use your imagination.
The important part is to do something that is newsworthy, becomes associated with the cause, fun and within US law. So, each time it is done the public immediately recognise what is.
all the best
west - just thinking.
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I was thinking the same thing Ray.
We do need to develop civil disobedience for our movement in the US. However, anything like climbing a fence of a govt building or running up to a govt official will be seen in terms of terrorism and there won't be much tolerance. Not just from the LAPD but I would guess from most police forces. They are armed and nervous.
I love the idea of mass super heroes staging silent demonstrations. This sort of thing could be done in front of the homes of the worst of the family court judges or sexist legislators. We need to single them out and make them public. Once these people see they can no longer hide behind rocks they will start taking a different approach. Until then we will continue to get the sexist chivalrous crap that passes for equality and fairness.
Do we have True Equality?
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by Anonymous User on 08:37 AM November 21st, 2004 EST (#7)
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"This sort of thing could be done in front of the homes of the worst of the family court judges or sexist legislators. We need to single them out and make them public.
I LOVE IT!
One thing that does get attention are big signs. A few choice words are really effective, such as, PATERNITY FRAUD IS DEADBEAT GOVERNMENT.
The truth of the matter is all the activist have to work to pay off their slavery indebtedness when they should be protesting.
I'm retiring next month and I know a couple of other old retired guys and I think we are going to do some protesting, and look for some other OLD, BORED, MENSACTIVIST RETIRED GUYS.
I have over 160 protest signs in the room in back of my garage so in reality all I need are people to show up at a given time and place.
I think I'm going to try for Saturday protests at government locations next time too. All the buildings are shut down, but I personally don't think that matters all that much. A lot of people are out on a Saturday and will see the rally. I know some intersections that are busier on Saturday than weekdays, and more men can get off Saturday. If anybody asks why we are protesting when the gov't isn't there, we'll just tell them the government is never there as far as our rights are concerned so what's the difference. As long as the public sees it that's the main thing.
We can always take a picture and send it to our elected representatives and tell them, YOUR SLAVES (MEN) CAME TO SEE YOU THE ONLY TIME THEY HAVE OFF FROM THEIR SLAVERY, BUT EVEN THOUGH SOME LIGHTS WERE ON, YOU WEREN'T HERE TO WORK FOR US(AS USUAL).
Ray
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Great idea Ray! Get chains and chain large groups of men together and walk around with our signs dragging the chains. LOL!
BTW I love Rays stuff and have enjoyed wearing it. We had it for the first men's rights congress and will have more for the next one in June.
I am grateful for a man like Ray who gets off his ass and does something to change things. I'm tired of those who critique from their keyboard and criticise those who are actually doing something. It's probably a feminist.
Do we have True Equality?
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by Anonymous User on 10:13 AM November 23rd, 2004 EST (#18)
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I guess it is not that British Police officers would have shot Jason hatch who climbed the buckingham Palace if this stunt had been the first one to have Happened.
the protests have to start small and then keep increasing inthe intensity . Once the LAPD , NYPD, WAPD etc know that you are protesting for something valid ( I think there are lot of men in the same situation inside police also or have a buddy in the same situation they will understand. For instance the guy who talked down Jason hatch himself had access problems).
Now in USA if you were to go and climb the white house as first stunt in imitation then obviously it wil not work .
But the way of protest is start with a theme and start pushing the tolerance Zone bit by bit and establish your presence and then start going for big ones.
I am quite sure that if Margaret Hodge had been handcuffed as the first stunt then the reaction by police would have been ferocious. But The atmosphere is such that anything harsh against F4J will end up discrediting the establishment.
Also the message has to be positive. The F4J message is positive " father deep involvement is in best interest of the child" .Their methods are increasingly pushing the envelope and have ended up discrediting the judges who can only mouth " I have done no wrong" but I have no data to prove it .
Remember it is these same British judges who gave 8 months jail time to a father for sending an SMS message to his child and convicted Mathew O'connor for " kicking a Car " who are running scared against determined bunch of fathers and are giving suspended sentences or simple fines now.
F4j has also made one more important breakthrough. No longer will a man be satisfied with anything less then 50-50 access to his children .
Non violent Strategies have a way of working as long as you are innovative and continuously push the envelope.
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I have a suggestion for a form of civil disobedience protest that is "shoot the terrorist" proof, will only make those who suggest comming down hard on the protestors look bad, and will still eat at the egos of those who we lampoon sufficiently to make the point and encourage the "swing voters"to join in on the fun.
I suggest that characters stage street theatre type protests dressed as characters from the Wizard of OZ (casting the feminazi as the Wicked Witch of the West of course) complete with "Dorothy"throwinga bucket of water etc.
"Oh you wicked wicked little girl...VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN!!!...you little traitor to your gender...look what your backlash is doing...women's rights are eroding...eroding...eroding" I think you get the idea.
Also showing up in family court in drag and doing some strident bitching is good.
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