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by Anonymous User on Friday October 10, @06:05AM EST (#1)
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"also the homophobia that seems to mostly target men more so than lesbians."
And although many assume the bias comes mostly from men, in some ways it comes from women more than men, such as women's unwillingness to date bisexual men compared to men's willingness to date bixesual women.
Marc
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by Anonymous User on Friday October 10, @08:41AM EST (#2)
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Homosexuality in men is not attractive to most women. We do not get aroused seeing two men together. I have no idea why people in general are aroused by women getting together but are disgusted by the image of men together. Is it societal, or biological? I don't know.
(I am generalizing here)Women are attracted more by emotional characteristics, and we like gay men as friends, men are visually oriented, and like to see gay women together. Could this be part of it? Again, I don't know Jen
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by Anonymous User on Friday October 10, @11:41AM EST (#4)
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I think there was a study a while ago that found that heterosexual men found two women having sex very arousing and homosexual men found two men having sex very arousing.
The women in the study apparently reacted differently with very differing rates of arousal based on the situation.
I think that was the basic gist of the study, but if I can find an article about it, I'll post it.
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by Anonymous User on Friday October 10, @06:13PM EST (#8)
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Jen,
This is a good point, but I'm not really talking about observing a homosexual sexual encounter or taking part in it. I'm just talking about the merely willingness to date a bisexual person of the opposite sex. I have dated bisexual women without any interest in watching them have sex with women, or taking part in it. And at least from my observation men are far more willing to date a bisexual woman than women are willing to date a bisexual man, apart from whether they desire to observe the person have sex. I'm not criticizing but I am pointing out that when people say that it's men more than women who are biased against gay or bisexual people (and people do say that) they are ignoring the fact that women practice their form in a different way - mate selection. Men may be more likely than women to use derogatory terms, etc. toward gay or bisexual people, but women are more likely than men to avoiding dating them, and that's a whole other form of bias that doesn't get addressed often.
Marc
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by Anonymous User on Friday October 10, @08:08PM EST (#10)
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Men may be more likely than women to use derogatory terms, etc. toward gay or bisexual people, but women are more likely than men to avoiding dating them, and that's a whole other form of bias that doesn't get addressed often.
Another point is that the use of derogatory terms doesn't necessarily mean the same to males and females. Banter among male friends often includes use of derogatory terms for each other, but not in an abusive or subordinating way. My sense is that women friends generally don't talk like this. Of course, under penalty of the law and company policies, men are required to more or less talk like women.
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by Anonymous User on Friday October 10, @10:25PM EST (#14)
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Marc-you are right, i think maybe we both are. I do think that whether or not you find it attractive is an issue-women tend to find gay men sexually unattractive, so a bi man would fall under the same catagory of unattractive for many women. Whether this is for self preservation (feeling that competing with 100% of the population vs 50%, or trying to compete with a man for a man could lead to rejection) or biology, or plain old bigotry, again I don't know.
However, I agree completely that women are equally as biased in their own way. And I also agree it does not get addressed, as women are made out to be very pro gay, when those men are acting like the stereotypical gay. You made a very good point there.
I disect behavior for a living, so excuse the constant analysis ;-) Jen
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"Is it societal, or biological? I don't know."
Its hard to find a woman under 30 who isn't bi, if not completely lesbian. That wasn't true a few generations ago, so there's definitely a sociological component. Personally I think its the media shoving female sexuality down our throats constantly, and telling us dozens of times each day that female sexuality is the greatest thing in the world, and men's is often scary. Don't think the media can have that kind of impact? Look at what the media got you to think was great fashion back in the 80s. If the media can change your world view that much as to see those styles as gorgeous then and ridiculous now, surely the amount of advertising female sexuality over the decades has an effect.
Beyond the media there's a social component as well, in that I've never heard anyone say "That was the lesbianest movie I ever saw", but ultimately its all just messages, images, and conditioning whether from the media or elsewhere. If you can overcome this, you could probably find something worthwhile in the image of gay men, rather than being disgusted by it.
"Women are attracted more by emotional characteristics,"
Yeah, yeah. And they've done surveys which proved that children who were allowed to take whatever they wanted for lunch over time started choosing healthier meals than those who were limited in snack foods. If your total man selection was as limited as most single guys women options you'd be more interested in looks too, especially if most men were as emotionally uncaring towards you as women are to men today.
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by Anonymous User on Friday October 10, @10:33PM EST (#15)
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You have a good point about societal impacts on this issue. Your last statement about men being visual only because of the poor dating pool is bunk.
Men fuel the porn industry which is visual, women fuel the romance novel (read soft porn)industry which is emotional. This is only explained by biological preferences. It is nothing to be ashamed of. I know society will have you think that emotional is more valid than visual, but it is not.
My friend was complaining how she couldn't understand lap dances. "why would a guy get all worked up over something he can't have?" I said it was no different than her awful romance novels, which emotionally put her at a high she could never satisfy through words. She couldn't answer that one.
Anyways, my 2 cents, Jen
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"You have a good point about societal impacts on this issue. Your last statement about men being visual only because of the poor dating pool is bunk. "
That isn't quite what I meant. I was trying to say that men would give less importance to looks if hot women were more freely available. Back when I wasn't very good at picking up women, (or rather piss poor at it to be honest), I prized looks much more highly than I do now. Since then I've become fairly adept at picking them up, and now I would choose an average looking women who's really cool, (or really kinky), over a model-type girl I don't know much about. So it isn't that looks are no longer a factor, they're just not as important. I'm pretty sure it works the same way with women, they like men's looks but that doesn't overwhelm everything else.
"Men fuel the porn industry which is visual, women fuel the romance novel (read soft porn)industry which is emotional. This is only explained by biological preferences."
Hold on there partner. Be wary of dismissing other possibilities without thoroughly examining them first. In this case you haven't offered a biological explanation yet. If you can tell me which parts of our genes determine this, and specifically what this part of the genes does to our brains that causes us to have different preferences then that's a biological argument. Otherwise stating it can only be explained by biology is like saying "Well that's just how it is" which doesn't help explain anything.
I think a major factor here could be sexual empathy. When men have sex, or fantasize, they focus on women. I believe women do the same thing for the most part, they also focus on women. When having sex they tend to focus on how sexy what they are doing makes them. If watching a porn flick they empathize with the woman's position. I'm sure there's some interest in the men's experience or watching how men express themself sexually but I think that's the lesser interest, more like an idle curiousity that not all women share. The only exception is when women want to see how men are reacting to them, sort of like the old "Enough about me, now what do you think of me?". I think the guys for the most part might as well be vibrators, and they miss that men make themselves vulnerable and that men are offering ourselves to the women just like the women are offering themselves to the men. Vulnerability has been shunned from the male role for most of history though, so I don't suspect women fantasize about or look for that aspect much in men and often have an unrealistic view of what sex for men is.
"It is nothing to be ashamed of. I know society will have you think that emotional is more valid than visual, but it is not."
There's no shame. I'm just suggesting what matches my observations.
"My friend was complaining how she couldn't understand lap dances. "why would a guy get all worked up over something he can't have?" I said it was no different than her awful romance novels, which emotionally put her at a high she could never satisfy through words. She couldn't answer that one. "
I can't stand strippers or whores myself. I find it disgusting that they exploit the devaluation of male sexuality, (and thus, the devaluation of men). "What a man's been convinced that what he offers to the sexual experience is worth so little that a woman should need to be paid to experience it? Time to go make some money!" Screw them.
"Anyways, my 2 cents, Jen"
Thanks for sharing them. :)
Jeff
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"also the homophobia that seems to mostly target men more so than lesbians."
Yup. I heard the term "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and *Steve*" frequently, but I have never, ever heard the cry, "God made Adam and Eve, not *Alice* and Eve" (or something similiar) to oppose female homosexuality.
R
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women's unwillingness to date bisexual men compared to men's willingness to date bixesual women.
About a year ago I spoke with a woman, who was carrying on about the female lovers that she'd had and then added that she was in a relationship with a man at the time. I asked her if she would mind if he'd ever had male lovers. With a look of shock and horror, she said, "Any man that I'm with has to be a real man."
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"Any man that I'm with has to be a real man."
I'll emphasize that her attitude wasn't just one of not being turned on. She was repulsed by the idea.
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I'll emphasize that her attitude wasn't just one of not being turned on. She was repulsed by the idea.
Hmmm, I got a feeling she likes having a sexual monopoly all to herself so she can play sexual power games.
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Hmmm, I got a feeling she likes having a sexual monopoly all to herself so she can play sexual power games.
Well he did say she's female.
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I think that, even if men's advocates don't want to embrace gay men for their lifestyle (i.e., seeming to advocate homosexuality as a form of gender independence), we should at least acknowledge that the seeming difference between how gay men and lesbians are regarded by society could be used an example of how men and women in general are regarded by society.
I think female homosexuality is more accepted because, traditionally, society has defined sex (in so many words) as simply a display of men's lust toward women. Women have historically not been acknowledged to have sexual desires of their own, to nearly the extent of men, if at all. By the traditional definition, sex happens because women are sexy, and men naturally want this. Operating under this definition, it's easy to see why male homosexuality would seem not only unfathomable, but disgusting. So long as we define females as the embodiment of sexual desirability - the catalyst for sex - then sex is not valid unless there is a female somehow involved.
Feminists are technically right to complain of how women have been taught not to acknowledge their libidoes. But, we also need to look at the advantages that came to women because of this denial. Feminists claim that men being taught to deny our vulnerability is not true oppression to us, because society rewards us for not seeming vulnerable. That's true but, by that same token, society rewards women for not acting horny. I agree that it has been wrong to mislead members of either sex into believing that they should not be having certain feelings, but feminists have been wrong to label the myth of the Victorian female as nothing but oppressive to women; it has also been a source of power and affluence.
Also - if civilization has been founded largely on women's ability to "nail" men and therefore harness and channel men's energy into "productive" endeavors, then that's another reason for male homosexuality to be uniquely disdained. Take away men's sexual attraction towards women, and there is apparently nothing to "nail" a man down with.
Meanwhile...what is there to fear about two women getting it on?
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by Anonymous User on Friday October 10, @07:16PM EST (#9)
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I realy hope this site deosn't fall in to the gay trap. keep sex to your self and no one will hate you for not bringing it up!!I am not a homo phobe !! If you flaunt your sexuality then it will be a part o how people judge you !! so if you dont want them to dont tell them!!
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I realy hope this site deosn't fall in to the gay trap. keep sex to your self and no one will hate you for not bringing it up!!I am not a homo phobe !! If you flaunt your sexuality then it will be a part o how people judge you !! so if you dont want them to dont tell them!!
So why should homesexual orientation by judged negatively? No-one demands that heterosexuals keep their sexual orientation secret. It's difficult to "keep sex to your self" unless your only outlet is masturbation.
--sd.
Those who like this sort of thing
will find this the sort of thing they like.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday October 11, @08:53AM EST (#17)
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I'm just saying gay's don't want people to take their sexuality into account but they define themselves by their sexuality ! look all I'm saying is lets stick to Men's issue's don't subdivide!!
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by Anonymous User on Saturday October 11, @09:06PM EST (#19)
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"I realy hope this site deosn't fall in to the gay trap. keep sex to your self and no one will hate you for not bringing it up"
If you read the article you would have seen that the prosecuter kept on bringing up Eddie Hartman's sexuality to basically say that sexual abuse is different for 'gay' 'men'. And also brought up Eddie Hartman's sexuality to exploit people's HATE towards 'homosexual' 'men'!
The article also points out that this isn't the first time that prosecuters have used this bigotry against 'homosexual' 'men' in the judicial system to bias the jury against the defendant.
So it looks as if Eddie Hartman and some other gay men have fallen into your so-called "gay trap" and paid their lives for it.
You see in these cases it is the people in authority who HATE 'homosexual' 'men' and bring up other people's sexuality to bias the jury against them to win a case. Eddie Hartman and some others could NOT keep their sexuality to themselves!
To reply further to your comment-- gay people are tired of being shoved into the closest and told to keep their sexuality to themselves and no one will hate you for 'not' bringing it up. Yet at the same time fundamentalist fanatics and homophobes of all stripes and colors can't stay out of other peoples sexuality and until this stops gay men will bring up their sexuality more and more in rebellion against their repression. This has everything to do with Men's issues, and I can't see how anyone can say they are for men's rights but at the same time not care about homosexual men's rights.
That's all I feel like saying, I don't think I'll reply further.
P. George
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by Anonymous User on Sunday October 12, @09:24AM EST (#20)
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Like I said I'd rather not subdivide! That man was a murderer!! Thats why he died! Sexuality, (straight ,gay, whatever) has no business in public debate! If your on trial unfortunatley every thing is on the table!! I hope I have'nt hurt anyones feelings! Nobody,s special!!
Craig
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by Anonymous User on Sunday October 12, @12:26PM EST (#21)
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"Like I said I'd rather not subdivide! That man was a murderer!! Thats why he died!"
Did you read the article? Do you think the sexuality of this man would have been brought up if he were straight? What if it kept on bringing brought up that he was black or that he was male?
The prosecuter kept on bringing up Eddie Hartman's sexuality because he knew that he could bias the jury against him for his sexuality. He died because he was gay. The prosecueter used HIS sexuality to condemn him.
"Sexuality, (straight ,gay, whatever) has no business in public debate!"
Then why do fundy's and homophobe's keep bringing it up? Or are you only against sexuality bringing brought up homosexuals? Sexuality has every business for public debate when the minority sexuality is hated and discriminated against. These are very easy things to say when you aren't personally affected by them and discriminated against.
No wonder why gay men aren't interested in mens activists. They know feminists care more about them. How can you blame them? I had to reply, but why bother.
P George
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by Anonymous User on Sunday October 12, @12:29PM EST (#22)
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I used the word "bringing" for "being" twice. I just got up.
P. George
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by Anonymous User on Sunday October 12, @12:39PM EST (#23)
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"If your on trial unfortunatley every thing is on the table!!"
And here you're saying that homosexuality is open for public debate. He wasn't on trial for being gay. Well, actually in a way he was. This a VERY easy thing to say when you aren't in a hated minority.
You're also ok with women using their gender as a way to get lighter sentences and to get out of the death penalty? Or are you against that, but not against prosecuters using the defendants sexuality to get the death penalty?
P George
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by Anonymous User on Sunday October 12, @01:11PM EST (#24)
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"If your on trial unfortunatley every thing is on the table!!"
And here you're saying that homosexuality is open for public debate. He wasn't on trial for being gay. Well, actually in a way he was. This a VERY easy thing to say when you aren't in a hated minority.
courtrooms are'nt for debate they are for facts!!!
Then why do fundy's and homophobe's keep bringing it up? Or are you only against sexuality bringing brought up homosexuals? Sexuality has every business for public debate when the minority sexuality is hated and discriminated against. These are very easy things to say when you aren't personally affected by them and discriminated against.
minority being the key word!
You're also ok with women using their gender as a way to get lighter sentences and to get out of the death penalty? Or are you against that, but not against prosecuters using the defendants sexuality to get the death penalty?
Sure and that's why I come to this site??
What's a fundy??
I did read the article! AND I have to say nobody makes anybody do anything!! A terrible childhood ( wich I am familiar with) is no reason for murder which is what this man was !!
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by Anonymous User on Sunday October 12, @01:36PM EST (#25)
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My quote--"You're also ok with women using their gender as a way to get lighter sentences and to get out of the death penalty? Or are you against that, but not against prosecuters using the defendants sexuality to get the death penalty?"
Your answer to the quote above--"Sure and that's why I come to this site??"
If you are against women getting lighter sentences and out of the death penalty simply because of their gender, then for you to be consistant you would EQUALLY have to be against homosexual men's sexuality (which has nothing to do with the trial) being used in court to BIAS the the jury against the defendant. If you were not consistant with this it would show your own bias against homosexual men.
You aren't consistant, you say that EVERYTHING can be put on the the stand at your trial including ones sexuality, to be exact-- homosexuality. If you were consistant, you should have no problem letting women use the privileges of their gender to get lighter sentences and out of the death penalty, since you think it's fine for prosecuters to use homosexual men's disadvantages to biasly give them the death penalty.
Your quote "I did read the article! AND I have to say nobody makes anybody do anything!! A terrible childhood ( wich I am familiar with) is no reason for murder which is what this man was !!"
If you read the article you would have seen that his childhood wasn't brought up to get him out of murder charges. This is about the different treatment a straight man would be dealt compared to the treatment this gay man was dealt. And he was treated differently BECAUSE OF his sexuality. To tell someone to keep quiet on their sexuality while they are being discriminated against because of their sexuality is in my opinion hateful.
P. George
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by Anonymous User on Sunday October 12, @02:40PM EST (#26)
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Sure and that's why I come to this site??"
do you see the question marks ! that should tell you I'm not in agreement!!
If you read the article you would have seen that his childhood wasn't brought up to get him out of murder charges.
but thats how he was being defended in the article!!
And he was treated differently BECAUSE OF his sexuality.
Of course he was and if he was black ! if he was a woman ! if he was white ! And none of it's cool but it's reality and I think every one should face it.! you can only change so much if your a majority and a minority its even harder Tolerance is someone not stoping you from what your doing not accepting it !!! and what's a fundy??? Good Day Craig
you can only change so much if your a majority
thats why we should'nt subdivide like I
originally was trying to say!
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by Anonymous User on Sunday October 12, @02:48PM EST (#27)
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You don't make any sense.
It is really now wonder to me why gay men are more drawn to feminists than mens activists.
P. George
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No doubt at all. Madonna can swap spit with two other starlets on national TV and all it does is get ratings. If a man had done this with two other men?? There'd be all sorts of carrying on.
I was at a trendy dance/techno club in DC last night until like 4:30 AM. There were plenty of scantily clad young women around, more than a few of them making out with each other on the dance floor. Basically, gay and bi women can carry on almost anywhere without problems. Gay and bi men have to meet in private clubs or specifically "gay bars", or move to entirely new parts of the country such as San Francisco or Provincetown, MA, in order to hold hands without fear of being harassed in some way for it.
Basically, claims of feminists that women's sexualities are repressed are total B.S. Quite the opposite is true. They can flaunt their sexuality and display it in almost any form they want to in public short of openly engaging in it (and even then...). Men other other hand, have to walk a fine line of permitted sexuality expression that is suppressed by force should they step outside it.
How the feminazis live with themsleves as they tell their lies is beyond me...
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