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What we have to be aware of is HOW the political process works, which involves the court of law and the court of public opinion.
The corollary to that is we also have to be available of what DOES NOT work. Regrettably, this often means that the high road is a dead end. Playing nice, being chivalrous, ignoring slander - these have a deplorable tendancy to only provide short term self satisfaction; in the meantime our enemies snicker and continue to use us for a punching bag.
Like it or not, we need bomb throwers as much as we need voices of reason. The hard thing to remember is that you NEVER attack a men's activist.
One thing the pheminazis have learned well and apply with great skill is politics. Do we have to duplicate them word for word? No. What we do have to duplicate is their methods, first off is putting a masculist spin on everything.
As men we tend to value logos (logic) as a methodology over everything else. This is fine, but as a matter of debate, as a matter of sophistry (in the classical sense) you also have to appeal to credibility (ethos) and make an emotional connection (pathos). Good logic, as my communications professor taught, is but one part of a good debater. Limit yourself to logic alone, and you will wind up getting your ass kicked in a debate. A big part of persuasiveness is forcing the other guy's position to cost him something, even if it is only an emotional cost.
Yes, I know a great many people are enamored of changing the world one person at a time - trouble is that our opponents like to change the world one battalion at a time. Guess who is winning the war?
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Do you think it could be a good idea to post sometimes (not too frequently else people are going to be bored) a message dedicated to men's rights and men's activists on askmen.com's message boards ? The audience statistics for this site are very impressive with more than 8 million unique readers a month, and more than 15 000 registered members, so to spread the word it would be a very efficient means of communication. Of course only a few topics should be posted to starting a debate like the positive Washington Times article on Wendy Mac Elroy for instance. We must not invade their site else people there would have a negative opinion towards masculists.
By the way, I have a question for mensactivism.org admins : is there a raise in the site audience ? Because I've never seen so many articles concerning male victims of DV or the gender gap in schools against boys in the mainstream media for years, so I would like to know if people's growing awareness has contributed to a raise in the audience for men's rights sites ?
If you want to keep the reply secret on a reason or another, you can answer me by email at atyler2ab@yahoo.fr
Thank you !
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> A big part of persuasiveness is forcing the other guy's position to cost him something, even if it is only an emotional cost.
That is very true and an excellent point. Well worth repeating.
If one doesn't manage to make their opponent look bad for supporting their point of view, you're going to have no chance of detracting people from their side of the fence.
This is - afaict - because all too frequently people are intrinsically biased, that is, they frequently prefer one point of view or opinion over another, and then justify that to themselves based on the 'facts' (whether they really are facts or merely vitriol or opinion) supporting that point of view (rather than the other way around), making them hostile to the other side of the fence.
Moral of the story: if you don't specifically make your opponent's opinion look bad*, then you're stuck, because as I said, people intrinsically prefer one point of view over another, only dissuasion from that will work, not just persuasion to your point of view.
(*) All factual and logical I hope!
-aym
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It is clear to me that feminists have used both Marxist and Fascist principles for their unjust ends. It, is also clear to me that true Marxism rejects feminism as a merely "opportunistic" political movement as feminism does not seek true equality but privilege. The political ends of the men's movement should be justice as without justice there can be no just peace as in any war there can be no just peace without justice. We should not copy the unethical means and goals of our political enemies, the feminists or female elitists.Believe me, it is very hard for me to say the same as I have often, personally, been subject to the "gender feminist" American female culture which is highly oppressive, unprincipled, and discriminatory.The unjust,unprincipled, oppressive and discriminatory conduct that returning Vietnam veterans received, in my opinion, was largely due to feminists and their supporters who sought to destroy the most assertive males in order to gain political control.If we do emulate feminist ends and means, we are no better than they are.I think that what needs to be done, in my opinion, is for men to separate themselves from females politically and, if effective political reforms addressing the current social, cultural, economic, political oppression of males are not addressed, to separate ourselves, as a whole collectively and individually, from the political states which promulgate such oppression. Our current political system (two party winner take all form of electoral representation) does not allow for the same nor for any political representation nor voice for male interests. A female electoral majority in the USA and Canada and the UK, given the above,is responsible for the aforementioned. Electoral representation should be limited to those who agree that all individuals,regardless of gender, should have the same rights and responsibilities without privilege. From ancient Sparta on, women, in general, have never agreed to the same and have insisted on privilege. Men should organize politically and assertively demand this fundamental principle of justice as requisite for electoral representation. If the state and/or women refuse the same, men should quietly acquiesce to their second class status or remove themselves from the state which promulgates their oppression based upon the same unjust principles (perhaps by forming a separate state).Perhaps,we should have a "Declaration of Independence" similar to the American Declaration of Independence. It seems to me the same would be appropriate. We should be polite to them no matter how much we personally dislike them and their unethical ends and goals and separate from them completely if they refuse true equality as they do not seek justice but to destroy us by any unethical means at their command . We should emulate Teddy Roosevelt who stated: "Speal softly but carry a big stick!"
C.V. Compton Shaw
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 19, @11:17AM EST (#5)
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The method really does not matter. You see I believe that all male activists are at different stages of waking up, therefore there is a wide range of views opinions and argument going on. e.g The correct method of tackling the feminasties or how we should demand true equality as a first etc.
What all of the above basically boils down to is negotiated improved prison conditions, if we take a closer look at societies in the UK USA CANADA etc etc we can see something far deeper happening. More and more men are turning their backs on society and the corporate cult,in a varety of ways, as they awaken to the depth of slavery they have endured, and as I mentioned earlier, a lot of these men are not even aware (awake) to the reasons why.
Society is in a tailspin, so it doesn't really matter how we debate the issues. the winds of change are upon us, regardless!
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 19, @01:56PM EST (#6)
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Nice rejection of "masculine" logic, there.
Irrationalism will cost you in the end.
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Doing nothing would mean things would get worse. Feminists are the same kind of spiral as the Nazis were with the Jews. If you blame Jews/men for all your problems and because that doesn't solve your problems then you have to blame Jews/men more. What starts as dislike escalates to total hatred. What starts as aggressiveness becomes violence and ultimately a final solution (Ideas about final solutions for men are around). All wrapped in a rationale that absolves the Nazis/feminists of any responsibility or blame.
As we have seen with the Canadian feminists who call anti-circumsion and fathers rights sites hateful, such a rationale can claim the Earth is flat if it so suits them. I imagine most of us have had conversations with women, online or offline, who talk equality but mean only women have inequality so women must have special privileges and men must have nothing.
In the face of this it is clear that a confrontation is necessary. Now if things continue to get bad for men, one day they may gradually take up arms. This could mean a civil war, perhaps even a global civil war. Such a war, because it goes to the fundamental structure of the human race, could be the most devastating war yet, as bad as the previous World Wars. Luckily however I consider such a war as likely as Saddam Hussein apologizing for his atrocities and wars. There has been talk for decades about a race war in various countries, but it hasn't happened. Riots and fights have happened, and it just might be this way with the sex war.
At a personal level, this would be like confronting a bully. Unless and until you confront the bully, they will continue to punish you for their problems. Now this doesn't have to mean violence or war, but it must mean confrontation. Some men's groups, like Fathers-4-Justice in the UK, are talking (and doing) non violent direct action, a la Martin Luther King. This I see as the only alternative to violent confrontation, apart from giving up. So I say that a war, or at least violence, can be avoided but only by being strong enough to see that everyone would loose in a war, not giving in to the temptation of getting a gun and by being, dare I say it, more noble than the feminists, not for them, but for us and the human race in general.
Raymond Cuttill Men's Books Men's Radio
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by Anonymous User on Saturday July 19, @09:39PM EST (#8)
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Men are more and more seen as not useful. Either fight to re-gain usefullness or instead: so, be it I am of no use. Therefore, I will invent meaning to my life, I will create a philosophy of happpiness based on being instead of on doing.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday July 20, @05:55AM EST (#9)
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I understand completely what you are saying and quote the saying " all it needs for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".
The thing is, and as I mentioned in my previous post, more and more men are turning their backs on society and the corporate cult, and so something is being done, perhaps not a direct action as you suggest but nontheless something is happening wether we activists like it or not. Perhaps we should capitalise on the rising crime and general unrest in society simply by pointing out that all of this has been caused by feminism and PC. I tend to think of the youth of today i.e. young men who are dropping out of school/college,underachieving, using drugs, rising crime etc etc as unaware activists.
A final thought which I hope does not upset anyone.... I fully accept that feminism has caused untold damage to society however, for me personally there is one thing that I am truley grateful for. If it had not been for feminism I would not have awakened to the depth of my own slavery exploitation and praise addiction.
Also mentioned in my previous post, all men are at different stages of waking up. As for me, the rot has spread too far, I feel that we must now let it take its natural course, all we can achieve by confronting them at this very late stage is damage limitation and slighlty improved prison conditions. simply put I am taking my life back while supporting any man who needs it.
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...so something is being done, perhaps not a direct action as you suggest but nontheless something is happening wether we activists like it or not.
Very true. Men are in fact doing something. In most cases where they find absurd laws they are rejecting the law and refusing to comply.
For example, I performed an informal survey of men to determine what they would do if they learned they were victims of paternity fraud. Most loudly proclaimed that they would refuse to pay and go to jail.
Ironically, when I check the CA-DCSS financial statement it turns out that men are refusing to pay in all time record numbers, and they are going to jail at ever increasing rates.
Make no mistake. Something is being done and for that reason men are going to jail at historically high levels while child support arrears increase to record highs.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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"Make no mistake. Something is being done and for that reason men are going to jail at historically high levels while child support arrears increase to record highs."
This is one of the best things I have heard yet!!!!!!!!!!!!
Secondly, I think we should start up some sort of recognition for these men. Somehow show that they are 'victems' and that they should not be in jail. This should be something here. This is serious men's activism in my opinion. Perhaps we could get names of the 'men'/martyrs' who have done this. Or a number, or an interview with one of them or several and their thoughts on their determination. This is good!
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I believe this is both a men and women's movement.
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Something is being done and for that reason men are going to jail at historically high levels while child support arrears increase to record highs.
We need to release these men from the Bastille. How was it that the French did it? What happened to the aristocracy?
Gonna have to review my history.
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"We need to release these men from the Bastille. How was it that the French did it? What happened to the aristocracy? "
It's probably not a good choice, since the french didn't do what they wanted to do ,democratically that is.
Feminism is contorting the countries it occupies into communist or rather authoriatarian control. Canada is always the number one example of the road that lies ahead.
The biggest problem with it is that it to is not being done 'democratically'. People are not hearing the truth and or the full story and are basing their opinions on limited and manufactured images. This is corruption, this my friend is Nazism.
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I believe this is both a men and women's movement.
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It's probably not a good choice, since the french didn't do what they wanted to do ,democratically that is... This is corruption, this my friend is Nazism.
Huh?
It was by doing what they did that the public ultimately brought democracy to France.
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"It was by doing what they did that the public ultimately brought democracy to France."
Well, I studied something different. That the french ended up being heathens and became louts themselves. It doesn't really matter. The point is that you are trying to make is fine, so forget what I said.
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I believe this is both a men and women's movement.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday July 20, @06:15AM EST (#10)
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Found this article which basically says it all for me! (dated 1928,I think)
PostCultural Blues - To all men who are men
The whole scheme of things is unjust and rotten, and money is just a disease upon humanity. It's time there was an enormous revolution - not to instal soviets, but to give life itself a chance. What's the good of an industrial system piling up rubbish, while nobody lives. We want a revolution not in the name of money or work or any of that, but of life - and let money and work be as casual in human life as they are in a bird's life, damn it all. Oh it's time the whole thing was changed, absolutely. And the men will have to do it - You've got to smash money and this beastly possessive spirit. I get more revolutionary every minute, but for life's sake. The dead materialism of Marx socialism and soviets seems to me no better than what we've got. What we want is life, and trust: men trusting men, and making living a free thing, not a thing to be earned. But if men trusted men, we could soon have a new world, and send this one to the devil.
...
To all men who are men:
Be men, be individual men, grounded in your own manhood! Don't believe in the 'working man' or the 'average man' or the 'good man'. Let every man stand by his own manhood, not be squashed into any sort of mass, nor made to any sort of pattern.
And get clear of the money hysteria. Money is the devil that twists all our tails: twists the rich man, who has more than he needs, and twists the poor man, who is threatened with starvation. Yet money is nothing more than the bogey of fear and greed, inside us.
Men, alert men, should neither live nor work for money. Men must work to produce the food, warmth and shelter we all need: but that should soon be done. The rest is the great game of living.
But now, everything is work, it is all slavery. Most men are wage-slaves. Under bolshevism, it is pretty much the same: they are still slaves, machine-slaves, party-slaves.
Work should be comparatively a trivial element in a man's life, and money need not exist. Men must provide food, warmth and shelter for themselves and for all human beings: for every human being should have warmth, food, shelter, free and without question, whether he works for it and 'deserves' it or not. - But this would not be a very tedious or difficult matter. At least seven-tenths of the work of today is waste work: done just because people do not know what to do with themselves: and to get money. It is a form of idiocy.
The real activity of life is the great activity of the developing consciousness, physical, mental, intuitional, religious - all-round consciousness. This is the real business of life, and is the great game of grown men. All that other affair, of work and money, should be settled and subordinated to this, the great game of real living, of developing ourselves physically, in subtlety of movement, and grace and beauty of bodily awareness, and of deepening and widening our whole consciousness, so that we really become men, instead of remaining the poor, cramped, limited slaves we are.
But we must first wring the neck of the money bird, and settle the simple question of food, warmth, and shelter.
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Whoever wrote that in the 1920s obviously had no idea how hard it is to live as a farmer, has no idea that motivation is necessary for innovation. If there is no more motivation for me to build computers and scanning electron microscopes, than there is to lie in bed (or till the soil which is more likely), why should I do it? Why should anyone?
Sheer ivory-tower foolishness. WORK does not come from some abstract thing called WORKERS, it comes from US.
Now, let's say we replace every worker with a robot. What exactly shall we do with ourselves? The day only seems bright because there is such a thing as night. Pleasure only exists because there is such a thing as pain. Man evolved above Beast because the environment presented threats that made a large, sentient brain more valuable than brute strength. Viruses become stronger each year because they must mutate to escape extinction by our vaccines. We create better vaccines to try to eradicate them anyway. STRIFE breeds EXCELLENCE.
Now. Is a life of indolence more desirable than a life of working and achieving goals? I don't think so. Whoever said that idle hands are the Devil's workshop is ten and a hundred times more wise than this "duh bluh let's do away with money and live for the moment and magically create food with 'little effort'" guy. Remember the '60s/'70s hippie communes? They don't exist anymore. Can you guess why? BECAUSE EVERYONE THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO SMOKE DOPE AND WRITE VAPID POETRY AND NEVER DO A MINUTE'S WORK. Oh, I can't farm, I'm a poet, my work is more important than that. Oh, I can't farm, I'm a philosopher. Etc etc etc.
Food, warmth, and shelter? That's all you want out of life? You don't need a human brain for that, you might as well be an ocelot. MAN strives to become BETTER than HIMSELF. That is the biggest difference between us and the beasts. Try to better yourself when your intellectual pursuits involve nothing more than basic survival in a zero-challenge environment. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday July 20, @08:47AM EST (#13)
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Do I detect a very angry man? It is what happens when we start to become awakened.
I can understand what you are saying, and suggest that perhaps you have taken the 1920's article too literally. I am sure it was posted as a menas to highlight the depth of our(mens)suffering in todays society, we have been duped, and we all fell for it.
The questions that I asked myself when I was also very angy.
(a) who benefits from this so called civilsed society we men have created.
(b) does it/has it worked
(c) can it continue
(d) considering myself reasonably inteligent
how was I so easily duped into being a slave.
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What, exactly, do you propose we replace it with?
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That will be down to the individual, which is dependant upon what stage he is at in his personal growth, some will continue on the treadmill some will reduce it some will just drop out of society all together, and as I mentioned previously a lot of this is happening right across the west and by men who probably are not even aware of mensactivism et al
Then again who says we have to try and replace anything, I think things will take their natural course regardless.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday July 20, @09:09AM EST (#14)
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"Try to better yourself when your intellectual pursuits involve nothing more than basic survival in a zero-challenge environment. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ."
Isn't the challenge to seek something that works for us as Men and society in general. The comment above is simply sticking with the old tried and failed approach, your praise addiction, duty and responsibility to the corporation feminists and women in general are very much still present in your thinking Brother, and to continue with it is simply thanking them for kicking the crap out of us while we go cheerfully along killing ourselves in crappy jobs and environments, thinking
"what a great man I am, look what I have done, and how they treat me and I can still continue".
Didn't I read something along these lines from a recent mens book? something about the slaves happiness??
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your praise addiction, duty and responsibility to the corporation feminists
You're confounding two different reasons for improving oneself. You're assuming that all (yes, all, you didn't qualify any exceptions which would provide an escape from that conclusion) men improve themselves in this fashion due to this 'praise addiction'.
Now this is all too common in men, but just because a man improves himself, or gains money, status, power or somesuch, doesn't necessarily mean that he's a 'slave' to female whims - he may very well be doing it for his own ends, and you're incorrect in dismissing it as the product of subservience to female whims when it happens to be the case that _those_qualities_ are what women are attracted to.
For example, I like sports cars - what sort of bloke doesn't? 8-) But if I buy a sports car, it's because _I_ want to own one, and _not_ because owning a skyline or other sports or luxury car is a near-prerequisite for attracting women. Merely because women happen to dig sports cars, does not prove that men with sports cars bought them to pull the women.
Moral of the story: don't infer motives from ends. Nuff said.
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> There has been talk for decades about a race war in various countries, but it hasn't happened. Riots and fights have happened, and it just might be this way with the sex war.
There will never be such a thing as a civil war between the sexes. However, your forecast is likely to occur, with single isolated street shootings or riots at most....like between the different races.
Note that it already happened : a radical masculist (probably insane) shot 14 feminists dead before committing suicide in 1989 in Montreal, Canada.
I think that it is this very event that led Canadian feminists to trying to censor men's activits, because they feared the masculist discourse could result in more shootings against feminists. When we speak of feminism in Canada, we must always keep in mind this slaughter, because it has obviously traumatized feminists in that country, and then their bahaviour can be accounted for by this fact.
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"I think that it is this very event that led Canadian feminists to trying to censor men's activits, because they feared the masculist discourse could result in more shootings against feminists. "
That Canadian Feminists certianly used Marc Lepine's actions to further their gains. They also pushed for more gun control. Which many states have been very interested in doing. The feminists censored, supressed and exagerated information where they seen fit.
The media lambasted Marc Lepines(not his birth name) movtives as an attack against women specifically when in fact it was an attack against feminist policies. Which ironically ,with media spin, in turn accelerated them.
After the shooting they pushed for research to be done by commissioning the University of Alberta. The U of A found that 12% of men were abused by their female partners and 11% of women were abused by thier male partners. Of course the 11% stat was published everywhere and the 12% stat was burried and never mentioned as even being done.
Marc Lepine became the poster boy for abusive husbands around the nation. A man who was never married and the real dispute over discrimination in the work place.
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I believe this is both a men and women's movement.
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I forgot to mention, Marc Lepine was neither a Canadian citizen or french canadian for that matter.
I believe this is both a men and women's movement.
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And which country did he come from ?
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Just what the fuck do we "owe" women?
Seriously, what do you as a man "owe" a woman sheerly based on your and her gender alone? Let's not be distracted by "mothers" and "daughters" and "wives" and so on and so forth. You, random man. What do you "Owe" Jane Doe, randomly selected woman?
Rhetorical question. The correct answer is "Not a Fucking Thing."
You and me - we might owe each other something if we put our heads together and come to some agreement or contract. If I tried to enslave you, steal your money, kidnap your children, or rob you of your freedom, you'd owe me, at bare minimum, a kick in the teeth.
So why the FUCK is it that you might feel you owe a woman something, based solely on her biological plumbing?
Women have bitched and griped and pissed and moaned about how they want equality, to be treated as "just one of the guys" and dealt with irrespective of their gender.
Well? Think about it. If a man were to try to enslave you, steal your money, kidnap your children, or rob you of your freedom what would you do to him? And based on the claim that "the girls" want to be treated with full equality, what should you do?
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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by Anonymous User on Sunday July 20, @11:42AM EST (#16)
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"Just what the fuck do we "owe" women?"
Perhaps a little strong but nevertheless 100% acurate. As mentioned previously, we are all at different stages of sleep/awakeness.
To go a little deeper with your question.
I am sure as Men awaken they go through many different emotions, for instance you can see a lot of anger in many postings, here and other similar sites. I also felt very angry with women initially and then anger with myself for being such a sap, I am sure these feelings alternated but I do remember feeling a complete wanker when I honestly admitted to myself that my main problem was programming and praise addiction.
I was once the proverbial solid dependable responsible workhorse providing for my family and wife and years later various girlfriends and their kids. I even used to get some sort of buzz out of all this, and as refered too above, when you have been shat on once or twice or in my case many times (I'm a slow learner) I started to read and visit sites such as this. Then the penny finally dropped at long last. Jeez!! I must have been walking around with "I'm an idiot who works 12 hour days in shitty jobs just for you honey" advertised across my forehead. Boy did I feel a dickhead!
In short we owe women nothing, they have got what they asked for. Let them keep it.
But !! be constantly aware brothers, they are all master manipulators, come on fella's, how else do you think they manage to get us to do all the things we do and work crappy jobs while we thank them for the privelage. PRAISE ADDICTION FROM CHILDHOOD, SOCIETY AND THE MEDIA..
PROGRAMMED AS PROVIDERS or if you like through F.O.G.
FEAR,OBLIGATION and GUILT. THATS HOW.
We need to break our own chains first then we can take them to task, that is if we so still desire.
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"We need to break our own chains first then we can take them to task, that is if we so still desire. "
I feel you are a communist. Which is fine with me in some regards. My greatest fear of communism is totalitarian, or authoriatarian control. Communism sounds good but with the wrong people running the show, its very bad indeed.
One thing is true men need to disolve thier obligations to others. Which is why I preach sole custody sole responsibility. Ironically this will bring back marriage, but, with birth control these days, it will set people free. It will make women truely independant. This is something the state does not want.
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I believe this is both a men and women's movement.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday July 20, @12:46PM EST (#20)
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Hi Dan
"It will make women truely independant. This is something the state does not want".
Women dont want it either, as it means responsibility and accountability.
No I am not a communist or anything else for that matter. when I say Break our own chains I refer to the hold praise addiction and programming has over most men. You see Dan it more or less worked for a few decades or so, I mean marriage etc, the thing is feminism has turned it on its head. They have enslaved women to the workplace who now obviously dont like it, while at the same time inadvertantly freeing men, that is the men who are awakened one way or another, and now say! on you go honey, its now time for me to sit in the garden. Nothing to do with communism mate, just simply saying hey girls you wanted your cake and eat it, well now you have it, get on with it, I'm going fishing.
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"Nothing to do with communism mate, just simply saying hey girls you wanted your cake and eat it, well now you have it, get on with it, I'm going fishing."
Personally Im still looking to see who is behind the curtain on all of this. The more I learn about the media, the more I realize that it is actually very few people who own the mass outlets of media outlets today.
If they did work in a combined effort, well.....
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I believe this is both a men and women's movement.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday July 23, @07:54AM EST (#32)
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"We need to break our own chains first..."
Exactly. The enemy is not feminaziism. The feminazis are merely exploiting "male chivalry" to advance their ends. So long as men retain the shackles of male chivalry, the feminazis will continue to have a field day. It is a nonsense to condemn feminaziism while advocating the continuance of traditional male chivalry.
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Could not have put it better myself pal !
I really cringe just listening to the vast number of "manholes" still out there who are being taken for a ride, all under the guise of chivalry.
Can't be too hard on them though, I was a manhole once upon a time.
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