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by Anonymous User on Thursday December 19, @11:51PM EST (#1)
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It was definitely a good showing. I wish there had been a chance to mention at least the NCFM web site that has the links to all the chapters, but I saw how tightly constrained they held you guys in what you could say.
If you guys ever have a chance to appear in this venue again perhaps it would be more appropriate for this channel to change the name of the show to, "The Allrude Factor," in honor of the despicable bigotry, that the host and his ilk display toward sound discourse and guests with integrity.
Considering all factors (impediments, etc.)it would have been very difficult for anyone to have done any better. It is very commendable that no one choked. It's a pleasure to watch the under dogs take on the over confident and the over arrogant and play 'em tuff from beginning to end. Again, congratulations to all for a courageous and effective effort.
Ray
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Having only read the transcript, it is difficult to get a full impression of what went on.
The impression I got was of of a typical chat show, with interptions, audience participation and some attempts at humour.
On the points made, they were excellent and seemed to make an impact,.
Trying to debate issues on this sort of show is very difficult and I think the guys did a good job of sticking, in the main, to the issues and rebutting some of the claims made.
If this has generated an interest and awareness of these issues then it has served it's purpose.
Maybe, as a result, a more serious show will now be prepared to present a deeper analysis.
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"Maybe, as a result, a more serious show will now be prepared to present a deeper analysis. "
One thing we may have missed is that the show was still about women. 'Are women getting a free ride' rather than 'Are men getting a bad rap' sort of venue.
None the less correct me if I am wrong but this is the biggest show that have even made a show that men are getting a bad rap. Regardless of the fact that the show may have been systematically designed to belittle the men's movement.
If we study how the women's movement of the 60s 70s have progressed things are moveing ahead. People also used to laugh at Erin Pizzey for her work in pushing for women's shelters. And women like Anne Cools and Erin Pizzey who had once fought for women's shelter's are now fighting for men's rights and men's shelters etc...
The interesting factor here is that men and most men I know are far more interested in watching sports and ignoring their rights. Though one of my tactics when I talk to aquatinances and frieds is to keep it simple. I tell them right up that the Justice system outright descriminates against men. I did this the other night and a guy I know responed with "No doubt; hell even look at when a guy comes home to his woman and she slaps him in the face. Nobody cares nobody wants to hear it."
All Im saying is there are more people out there that are aware of whats going on then we are giving credit for. Keep fishing and keep working on more tactful ways at bringing it up. Even if you only get a quick sound bite in it works.
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I've said some negative things about the Donahue show and I feel compelled to amplify my overall take:
I'm grateful and proud that Warren, Marc, and Peter were on this show in primetime. Their approach was reasoned and well-supported, and I suspect their position was well-taken by the informed viewer of either persuasion. I hope (and trust) that they and their successors learned about the tactics that are successful in this kind of forum.
That being said, they appeared in a forum that was adverse, infront of an audience that is hostile to their views, including the at-home viewers. Allred and Donahue did the best they could to minimize and belittle their arguments without painting themselves as extreme. For that, I believe that Donahue deserves every negative comment he is getting on this forum and on others that I visit.
Warble and others have sought to defend the show and the appearance of our three heroes, citing the notion that they did well and that we did get valuable exposure. And this is very true.
So let me get to my point: I think I would be speaking for most of us when I say that the appearance of Warren, Marc, and Peter was DEFINITELY valuable, and DEFINITELY a job well-done, BUT that Phil Donahue deserves every bit of criticism he has received on this issue.
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I agree Frank. I'm glad to see Marc, Warren, Peter, etc. get these issues some exposure in such a powerful media source. But Donahue's mockery of men's issues during the program, even making light of violence by women against men, was inexcusable.
Congratulations and thanks to those of you on the show! That took tremendous courage and ability.
Scott
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But Donahue's mockery of men's issues during the program, even making light of violence by women against men, was inexcusable.
Agreed Scott. That was totally unacceptable and Phil needs to be called on the carpet for promoting female-on-male workplace violence. That segment where he laughed at Peter really pissed me off.
Apparently the public agrees. NCFM, LA was contacted by a member of the USDA Dept. of Agriculture. He has witnessed a female in a position of authority precipitate workplace violence. Hopefully, we can get more details in the future. But for now we are protecting the person’s anonymity.
Peter made an excellent showing on that issue.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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I personaly have BEEN the victim of work place violence. and yes, the perp. WAS a woman.
When I filed a complaint to my supervisors, it was dissmissed, out-right. AND I was terminated soon after.
So yeah, I'd LOVE to call Phil Dona-puke onto the carpet and ... let's just say "discuss" it with him...,
The biggest problem with guys like Phil Dona-puke is that since they are "Men" they give an air of authority to the feminists and their false-hoods.
I was also wondering, if perhaps there is a more male-freindly avenue to take when trying to get our issues out to the public. I mean, when you go on a show like Phil Dona-puke's or Maurry Puke-vitch, You know what side of the issues they are gonna take, and it AIN'T gonna be OURS. because, as Thomas once said of guys like this, they are pet fem-boys.
But has anyone tried contacting FOX or some other network, that is KNOWN to be, if not so-much Male-freindly, than at least objective?
I feel that our boys would get MUCH fairer treatment, in these venues.
Thundercloud.
PS.
Dear Mr. Donahue, Get BENT!!!
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Allred and Donahue did the best they could to minimize and belittle their arguments without painting themselves as extreme.
Frank,
This is quite true. Allred and Donahue saw the men's activist gaining great favor with the audience. It really scared them so we agree that they resorted to dirty tricks and lies to try and shut down our champions. Allred and Donahue are quite aware now that they've been put on notice.
Thanks,
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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> Allred and Donahue did the best they could to
> minimize and belittle their arguments without
> painting themselves as extreme. For that, I
> believe that Donahue deserves every negative
> comment he is getting on this forum and on others
> that I visit.
I disagree 100%. Phil Donahue did something unprecedented -- calling masculists to a talk show. But he had to do SOMETHING to keep his job.
PUNISHMENT AND CRIME
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Iguess I'm just not as forgiving to people who do something solely undertaking to ensure their survival. To me, it makes them unprincipled.
But you are right: it WAS unprecedented.
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I've read the transcript, but I haven't yet seen a tape of the show, so I don't have a great deal of insight into how it went. Having stated that...
Phil Donahue did something unprecedented -- calling masculists to a talk show.
Very true, although his intentions may have been completely selfish. If I were a woman, I'd be keeping an eye on the femboys, especially those who have been the most aggressive in attacking men in order to advance their own (the femboys') petty, personal agendas and interests. As the tide turns these pseudo-men may well decide that it is in their personal interest to viciously attack women. When that happens, true men's activists may prove to be women's best friends.
Donahue may have invited Marc, Warren, and Peter because he sees the way the wind is starting to blow. He may even someday become a half-baked men's activist, if he decides it's in his interest. (That may sound impossible now, but some people have precious little integrity.)
In any case, the fact that Marc, Warren, and Peter were invited onto his show is a sign of changing times.
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by Anonymous User on Friday December 20, @07:53PM EST (#11)
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I wouldn't necessarily credit Donahue. It was probably just a stroke of luck that the producer of show happened to be David Gelles, the son of Richard Gelles. Richard did the research in the 70s thru 90s showing that men and women initiate DV at the same rate, and received death threats as a result. His son David is aware of the research and appears to be sympathetic to men's rights, at least enough to invite some men's activists and try to have Donahue use his father's research during the show (which Donahue did not do).
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by Anonymous User on Friday December 20, @08:51PM EST (#12)
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1. It will not be easy to sustain this degree of exposure.
2. More public exposure is needed and we are striving for just that (not as wide an exposure as this, but you never know).
3. Success must be built on.
4. The issues must be kept in the public eye.
4. New ways must be found to display the facts in the court of public opinion even if it's just to go stand on a street corner with a sign. The small efforts we make individually are cumulative in the totality of our voices.
This isn't over by a long shot. It's just beginning so...
5. individually do something, contribute in whatever small or large way you can. Individual initiative counts double. It all has a contributory effect in getting the information out. (o.k. I'm being redundant here because it's so important to speak up). Add this one to #4 if you like.
6. Lastly, share in the good feeling of this event and know that we are all apart of it in some way to some degree.
It's not every day you stand on the cutting edge of history, facing staggering oppossition with the insight to see that change must be made to make life bearable and liveable again for men.
Best Wishes to You All for a Blessed Holiday.
Ray
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by Anonymous User on Saturday December 21, @02:02AM EST (#15)
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hear! hear!
Preach on, brother Ray!
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I agree, well said, Ray.
BTW, Ray. If you don't mind my asking, How come you have started posting as "Anonymous", as of late?
Just curious.
TC.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday December 21, @11:46AM EST (#22)
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TC
Good question. My 5 year old laptop has become "unstable," and ate a whole bunch of my documents in "Word." I'm still using it a little, although it's, well, "unstable." This post is coming from my desktop, which I tried to create an account for with the same email address, but the software at mensactivism wouldn't allow it. ...so I'm anonymous except for my signature, which I'll try to add to all my posts.
There probably are solutions to all my problems, but I just haven't been able to figure them all out yet (what a mouth full).
Happy Holidays,
Ray
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Ray.
I just had a feeling it was a technical problem.
I know how THAT goes!
My nine year old key board went kaput on me right in the middle of a reply to Raymond (Cuthill). I left the poor guy hanging for about a week, before I could get a new board, and reply.
I hate it when that happens...! (^_^)
TC.
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by Anonymous User on Saturday January 04, @07:45PM EST (#40)
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at the silly comment's of Feral and his buddies. The audience knew they were spouting crap.
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Marc,
Good job! Keep it up and I may break down and get cable. :-)
It occurs to me that this tape just might be useful for you for the next time around. It's advice about dealing with talk show hosts that Don Steele gained while promoting his own... er... unique brand of masculism.
"By the time I made it to Montel Williams, I had figured out TV's con game. The hosts, in cahoots with paid shills in the audience, bash male guests because housewives watching TV are pissed off at their husbands or ex-husbands. I'm ready as I lay in wait for the angry, middle-age, ugly ball busters to step into my trap!
"...Plus, as you watch me handle the loaded questions and the enraged women in the audience, you'll become more confident about dealing with the same type of crap.
I really don't know how much help it would be for you, but Steele is definitely sharp and media-savvy and I figure it couldn't hurt.
Larry
Proud member of the Sperm Cartel
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Larry,
I like this guy, Don Steele's style!
TC.
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I like this guy, Don Steele's style!
TC,
Yep. When I first came across his site, I figured he was full of bravado and hot air. Then I started browsing his newsletter and kept saying to myself "He is right. This would work!" He backs up his bravado.
Even if you don't share his fascination with young women, there is a lot of insight there.
Larry
Proud member of the Sperm Cartel
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Excellent job Marc, Warren and Peter.
My 14 year old son and I watched it together and he asked me to pass on to Marc that Ms Allred was a "moron." Chip off the old block! :>)
This is a great beginning. Watching the show has led me to two ideas. One is that we need to develop some quick sound bites that summarize our motive, intent and goals. Quick phrases that capture what we are working towards.
The other idea is that the most powerful aspect of the show was the stories the men told. The single father was outstanding. It drove Allred nuts. She was put into a bind. If she comiserated with this man she would be "pro-male" but if she was against him she would be seen as the insenstive nimrod that she is. Her solution? To ignore the man's pain and turn the situation into a womens issue! The audience picked that up quickly and saw that she showed no concern for this man's plight and in her bigoted way focused only on women. This sort of story is just what we need. We need the personal aspect brought forward. That brings meaning to the statistics and other words.
In the same vein I am convinced that we are in need of getting more and more stories public. You can deny statistics, you can ignore studies or points of view but if you ignore someone in pain your bigotry becomes obvious. On standyourground.com I now have a place that men can enter their experiences. Check it out and write one yourself.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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by Anonymous User on Saturday December 21, @02:12AM EST (#16)
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Marc,
You were a powerhouse! Cool, collected, and very matter-of-factual. I would love to see Marc and Alred in a moderated debate, one on one, where the moderator isn't playing sides.
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With all the tornadoes happening in the lower Mississippi valley at the time the show was broadcast, I was surprised she wasn't more concerned that someone was going to drop a house on her!
> ...the most powerful aspect of the show was the
> stories the men told.
Unfortunately, the host and Ms. Allrude had a way of sensing when a story was coming -- and seemed to have had a strategy to cut it off, sidetrack it with a comment or question, or otherwise throw stumbling blocks in front of the would-be story-teller. It even threw off those who did surprisingly actually get some time to elaborate.
So...
> ...we need to develop some quick sound bites
> that summarize our motive, intent and goals.
> Quick phrases that capture what we are working
> towards.
...with this I strongly agree.
-------------------------------------------------- ----------
/* Not All Men Are Fools -- Some Are Martian Bachelors
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by Anonymous User on Saturday December 21, @11:37AM EST (#21)
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You Wrote:
"The single father was outstanding. It drove Allred nuts. She was put into a bind. If she commiserated with this man she would be "pro-male" but if she was against him she would be seen as the insensitive Nimrod that she is. Her solution? To ignore the man's pain and turn the situation into a womens issue!"
My Reply:
You have hit on a key debating strategy that Allred used in this debate. When she came under ideological attack in that indefensible area, she diverted attention away from the subject. She started a fire in another area. She motor mouthed to fan up the flames, the more smoke the better to get everyone's mind off this vulnerable area.
Basically, what that talking tactic was trying to say was, "What you said is not valid, instead this woman's issue is the valid point we should be discussing."
Solution: Hammer back with statements like "Stay on topic" "You just shifted focus because you have no excuses for what I just said" "Your argument is a diversion from the issue that I was presenting. Let's tall about your issue, when we're finished with the issue I raised."
I absolutely loved it when Marc nailed her solid with, "You're an iterrupter." Yea, Allred had such a weak position she couldn't even out talk me in a debate without having a Phil Donahue type run to her rescue every few minutes.
The only question I have at this point is, "When is round two," or is this going to be like the end of "Rocky," the movie, where the only thing Apollo Creed has to say at the end is "no rematch?"
I would have to say that the most tangible thing I came away with from this show was the highly apparent level of cowardice that Phil Donahue and his ilk displayed (for all his viewers to see) through the evasive and dishonest rhetoric they used in discussing the free ride that women are getting (at the expense of men) in our society.
I guess I'm just a tough critic, but instead of a pat on the back, I give this show host and his main accomplice two big yellow streaks for the cowardice displayed in there bigoted and manipulative theatrical appearance.
Sincerely,
Ray
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I absolutely loved it when Marc nailed her solid with, "You're an iterrupter." Yea, Allred had such a weak position she couldn't even out talk me in a debate without having a Phil Donahue type run to her rescue every few minutes.
You are so right Ray. When Marc labeled her and pointed at her with the statement "you're an interrupter" he won over the audience for the entire show. That technique was extremely effective. It was only because Phil kept coming to Gloria's aid that she had any place at all.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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I have a friend who has regular contact with many male feminists. He says that they do not respond well to anger and criticism. They just label the speaker an "angry male" (i.e. a defective, bad, unreasonable, misogynous, and dangerous person) and turn them off. Doesn't work.
Sometimes some of us (me included) keep repeating this same failed strategy when dealing with feminist men. Why? Thats easy - we are angry and it often pours out. And we have some very very good reasons. Many people just don't get it (for whatever reason). How do we communicate what we know about the true state of gender issues to feminist men? The key seems to be to communicate what we FEEL (but not the anger part, at least not immediately, or at least not in a raging tirade). My friend usually has success at this. What he does is state how upset and discouraged he feels when he is discriminated against. He states how sad he feels when a battered male friend of his could not get services or was arrested when the woman was the actual assailant. He states how another friend feels when he cannot see his children and how upset the kids are not to see dad. Etc.
Feminist men seem to be afraid of male anger no matter how legitimate it is. But they do often seem to respond very positively to feelings of sadness, pain, despair, discouragement. My friend had often found this to be the case. I wonder whether Phil Donohue would be more likely to respond well to this sort of letter.
I am not in any way suggesting that we lose our anger. Nor am I suggesting that we become doormats again. We have to stand very firm. With some people it just has to be done in a way that comes across as calm and reasonable, or perhaps even as benign and gentle.
I have not yet seen the show, but I did tape it. From the discussion, it sounds like our guys did a great job of being calm and reasonable throughout. After I watch my tape I am going to write Donohue as I outlined above.
Will
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by Anonymous User on Sunday December 22, @06:37AM EST (#26)
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Interesting, isn't it that women can yell and scream and carry on, be as angry as they want to be and as verbaly abuseive as they see fit, and no one will call them "Angry-females", or "un-reasonable", etc.
In fact, it seems the MORE they behave in this manner the more credibility they get.
...However, times they ARE a-changein'.
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This is an excellent point. The only time I can ever remember women being challanged about their tone of voice, interupting, or over-aggressiveness in making their point was when they were talking to other women! The gloves are off when it comes to talking to men yet it doesn't work both ways. If a man was rude like Allrude he would have been boo-ed and shamed.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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by Anonymous User on Sunday December 22, @01:16PM EST (#29)
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Once again we see that it is not equality that feminists are after but special priveleges. They have special entitlement as ladies to abuse, to talk over, to be rude, etc. and we must be gentlemen, we must speak politely and not in harsh terms. A woman is entitled to change her mind, to get into clubs free while men pay, to not serve in the military, to falsely accuse men of d.v. and child abuse, to be treated with special deference in all areas. Yes, to get into clubs free! This insidious evil begins in small ways.
Those who defend this and a gentle approach to changing things seem to ignore the harshness of zero-tolerance that men are beaten over the head with by the legal system as scaming, con artist, radical feminists and their ilk fabricate false accusations, etc. that horrendously destroy the lives of men day after day.
Even now the machinery of this radical feminist movement is manufacturing more male victims with comments like, "We think there'll be a rise in domestic violence over the holidays." "Why," I ask? "So you can promote more arrests to get more false statistics to make more hate laws against men and support your evil d.v. industry?"
Excuse my bluntness but I'm a little short on sensitivity when dealing with a self aggrandizing movement that seeks to empower one sex (female) based on the destruction of the other (male). The time for political correctness is over. Let the free voice of truth boldly proclaim these aforementioned atrocities in the court of public opinion. Let the voices of men of good will, who seek equal justice, ring out loudly and never let them be silenced.
:-) Happy Holidays
You will note I am ending this post with the classic "radical feminist happy face." I have commented in other places how, over the years, a certain radical feminist has softened her image of the "angry woman" by ending every one of her tirades with one of the most contrived, disingenuous smiles I have ever seen exhibitied on an unnaturally contorted human face? I've seen better acting in a bad "B" movie. Is this the kind of mollification that was meant, when a previous post (two or three back) advised a more touchy feely approach?
What was the comment Phil Donahue ended with? Something to the effect that, "Women are speaking up, to the betterment of society." I guess Phil really is from Mars, because I sure don't see that betterment happening for men on Earth.
Yea, the message in Phil's last comment is clear too. It's o.k. for them (females) to speak up for their gender grievances, but not for us (men). The intentional inclusion of women was as obvious as the intentional omission of men. Sorry Phil, I'm not buying one word of your overtly bigoted closing statement.
In ending let me explain that I refrain from signing my name lest the footsteps of the "jack boot, Nazi, radical feminist movement" comes even closer for my few remaining freedoms. :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
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The only time I can ever remember women being challanged about their tone of voice, interupting, or over-aggressiveness in making their point was when they were talking to other women!
Actually, no. The feminist male magazine editor sitting to the right of Allred nailed her on her shouting. But it came across more as a joke. Nevertheless, everybody picked up on this and it made her look foolish. Men need to do more of this with Allred. Forget about debating her, she will just user her big mouth to yell.
Once the word gets out that labeling her as an “interrupter”, “shouter”, or “yeller” works we will see more people using this tactic can shut down Allred. They will realize that they can make Allred look weak and foolish. Everybody needs to be talking about how Allred was made to look the fool by Marc.
B.T.W. I was talking to Marc about this and was telling him that it reminded me of Dr. Evil in Austin Powers telling his son Scott to Shush! The pointing at Allred with the right index finger and saying “interrupter” was too much. It made her look rude and overbearing. Anyway, we got a real laugh out of that image of Dr. Evil (the angry male Marc) shushing the evil feminist Allred. LOL!
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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I think it was great that Marc was able to label her an "interrupter" but I am afraid that didn't put more than a dent in her armor. She rolled on and on as if nothing happened. The real problem is that she was consistently and literally applauded for her passionate hate and misandry. If and when she loses that support she will cease. Until then she is armed by audience ignorance and cultural bias in the same way that a pre WWII german might be supported to be anti-semetic. Our best weapon against her is the truth of the pain this hate is causing. We need to speak our truth and stand our ground.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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by Anonymous User on Sunday December 22, @10:30PM EST (#32)
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You wrote:
"Our best weapon against her is the truth of the pain this hate is causing."
My Reply:
This is a jewel of a comment that bears repeating. Not only does this logical approach immediately serve to rebut and nullify the radical feminist's male bashing rhetoric, it pulls the platform right out from under her.
By reaching the sympathic ear of the audience, through the disclosure of the human tragedy created by the selfish, unjust "power and control agenda" of the radical feminists, their perverse sexist bigotry is more clealy revealed for all the world to see.
Let us again, and again, and again reveal the human suffering and the human cost created by feminist hate speech and laws until this evil comes fully to the light of an outraged public who will tolerate it no longer.
Sincerely, Ray
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One problem is; that, though pretending not too, the feminists KNOW their hate causes men pain.
They don't care.
In fact they are GLAD!
They are sadists. they enjoy the pain of others. Especialy if the "others" are men.
BTW. I just realized that if feminists are sadists, (and they are) then Men like Phil Dona-puke, who support feminism and hate their own sex must be Masochists(SP?). In that case I would definately NOT want to be a fly on the wall in Phil and Marlo's bed room!!! Creepy, VERY creepy...!
TC.
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Yes TC this is the point. The radfems pretend that their agenda does not cause pain but hide under the "equal rights for women" banner to the applause of many. The applause would cease if the audience knew the pain they were causing. When the single father spoke there was no one in the audience who missed his pain except for the radfems who nervously shuffled their feet and tried to shift the ground to make it a "women are victims of men" issue. This is what will change things for us. Getting the stories out there. Since a man's pain is taboo in our culture our job is more difficult. It is not impossible. Each of us needs to speak up. You can tell your story here.
Thanks for your comments Ray. You nailed it.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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Tom
I went to visit your website today.
I am a bit short on time, at the moment, but I will check it out further when I get a chance, possibly later today. (Christmas shopping, and stuff, Y'know.) Any way, It looks interesting. And I will more than likely add my voice.
Thanks.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
Thundercloud.
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Thanks TC. Your contribution would be deeply appreciated. I am hoping to build a large database of men's experiences that will be searchable by keyword. We will see. I have done this before and it has worked out very well.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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I know that maybe this might not be as big as the Phil show, but here is an idea or two. If anyone has ever been to a talk show they know how it works. There are cues to applause etc.. blah blah blah and the set up is contrived like it was on the Phil show. Phil is perticular to one side and in my opinion he favour's the side that watches the most.
If someone like Ray or the guns who are doing the Men's News Daily (unless they have already done this) they should set up a show in which educated guests can debate the issues. Maybe Marc or Warren or whomever can debate reasonably with whomever they can get as a guest. It may take a bit of searching to find someone willing too but they can be found. I myself was set up to do a radio show in PennState U, but couldn't make the trip. They had someone who was going to debate me on the issues.
It could have been a woman from the women's studies program or where ever, but if a fair forum is set up and the issues presented before hand it can go over really well. MP3 the work and archive it. Send the show to as many people as you can etc... I still recomend calling into to talk shows etc to get your 2 cents in. Anything that works its really a no lose situation in my opinion.
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I was contacted by a young lady in highschool who was in the process of preparing for a debate over Title IX.
She sent me this back:
::
Tony,
I meant to e-mail you the day of the debate. Thanks to all of the information you gave my partner and me, not only did we win we changed the opponents view of title IX. During my cross examination my opponent was so dumfounded that she sat down before the round was even over. Your arguments were solid and the websites you gave me supported your arguments well. I cannot thank you enough for helping me.
Kameelah
::
Amazing how even a highschool aged girl can see the truth.
Tony
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"Kameelah :: Amazing how even a highschool aged girl can see the truth."
You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all of the time.
Good for Kameelah. I hope she wins a political scholarship sounds like she diserves it.
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