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by Anonymous User on Saturday November 09, @02:35PM EST (#1)
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Michael Shaw agrees whole-heartedly. "Men feel a lot freer to say, 'No, I'm not going to go the traditional path. And I don't care how you shame me if I don't'."
That's a very encouraging paragraph. Cheers to Mike.
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On the issue of which gender holds sway over family planning, the survey proclaimed: "The role of men is of equal importance in determining fertility outcomes over time.
Duh? This is news? Men have a sperm cartel.
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Men have a sperm cartel.
Oh - I like that! What a great name for a men's support group: The Sperm Cartel.
(or maybe a rock band.)
Larry
Proud member of the Sperm Cartel
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You haven't heard? There are sperm banks. Or are you just opposed to the idea of women "paying for it"?
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"You haven't heard? There are sperm banks. Or are you just opposed to the idea of women "paying for it"? "
Apparently sperm donars are running scared aswell. Their anonymity has been cancelled. I have been controlling my 'genes' for over 15 years and many women have tried to get at them.
Btw The reason men have been 'paying' for it, is because they forgot the art of a)negotiation and b)self-respect.
I don't classify myself as a conservative or a liberal even if others do. But to me, donating my own sperm is not something I am interested in.
I warn guys to look out for those types of women who are just looking for a sperm donator.
Those types of women are easy to spot once you know their game. They move very fast, they stroke your ego and play the 'traditional housewife role'. They are making up excuses why you don't need to wear a condom, as in, Im on the pill, or 'I don't think I can get pregnant or whatever.
In most cases they are the ones who initiated the relationship. Their ego's prevail their temper is quick to rise and they are demanding when they have positions of 'power'. Now this doesnt mean power over all just power in even little things that they can assert. When you see these women abuse their power no matter how little, ask yourself how they will abuse their power when its big.
Secondly, I have found that the average girl on the street in Ontario knows that a woman's word is like pure gold in court and they know their resources are everywhere for them ready to kill.
It is in the best interest of the guy to take things slow and find out everything of his new love interest.
If she is real fast to move into you place take a moment to think about how pushy she is for commitment.
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Dan Lynch
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Good for you, man. I never particularly wanted to have kids and after reading all these stories I DEFINITELY don't want to.
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"The sperm bank stocks wont last forever, not with donors anonymity under threat. Best get in there now and avoid the rush!"
Lol, yep, father's for life.
Currently having a pregnancy scare of my own. She is talking about giving it up for adoption.
.
Dan Lynch
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"If you don't mind my asking, how do you feel about it?"
I have told her it is not an option for her. That I will take the baby. I stated that I do not one any of my liniege out of my control or parentage.
We are talking marriage , abortion etc... She wants me to tell her to have the abortion. I would rather the abortion than having the child out for adoption. Im sorry to those who are trying to adopt, thats how I feel.
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday November 12, @08:14PM EST (#39)
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I hope the situation resolves itself to everyones satisfaction, all the best.
Regards,
Scott Gilbert
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I have to say I have been really impressed with how much attention and sympathy men's issues seem to be getting in Australia these days. This article shows a lot more consideration for men's position than most of what I've seen in the US press; here the prevailing attitude (with a few exceptions) seems to be "suck it up and get married, already." Down under, the situation seems to be getting a lot more careful thought.
Similarly, I know that Australia has been paying a lot of attention to boys' underperformance in school and male suicide. And, don't forget, the recent study debunking the idea that marriage is bad for women came from Australia, too!
Good on you, mates! (I've been told that's an Australian expression)
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Personally, I think any man who is thinking should get himself a vasectomy of the reversible kind the minute they turn of age. Then let the bidding begin. Considering they way the law and the courts treat men in family court, it's a blessed wonder there is any birth rate at all.
No? I'm in my forties. If I got mine undone right now, I could go out and be a daddy. About every woman I grew up with is well into menopause right now, or well past it. And quite a few are wistful that they bought into the lie of pheminism, and their chance to bear their own children are gone. Forever.
I have had a lot of women pass me by and dump me when I finally let them in on the vasectomy - even when they knew it was reversible (The fact that many were upset because they couldn't trick me is another issue) - mainly because they heard that old clock going ticktickticktickTickTickTICKTICK. They wanted to be mothers. And they wanted it NOW.
Not me. Ah, ain't biology grand?
I find it very telling that any woman who chooses not to be a mother is lauded and applauded for "making the right choice for HER" and given a hearty "You go, girl!" Us men, we're immature commitment-phobes, denying women their due, depriving them of what is theirs by Divine Right. You check out that one line - what's his face is "Still convinced of a man's right to choose" or something to that effect? Like it's debateable? What's next from that bunch, mandatory sperm donations?
Can you believe the unmitigated hubris from those clowns? The sheer gall of it is astounding.
---- Burn, Baby, Burn ----
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Hmm, I've heard that after a few years successfuly reversing a vasectomy isn't likely at all. The boyfriend wants to get one, though I'm not sure when that's going to come about. I'm leaning towards switching to Norplant in the mean time. Neither of us wants children, and he's gone as far as to say that if a child were to come into the picture he wouldn't be in the picture any longer. That's his choice.
I'm still amazed at the feminists who refuse to believe that, really, a woman isn't at her peak for parenthood at 45, after a career of sorts.
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Peter Vogel succintly expressed my own feelings about marriage and children:
"We are talking 50:50 chance of divorce, which means not only emotional upheaval but often financial disaster, and a one in three chance of spending up to 18 years paying child support for children you will probably have no meaningful relationship with. The perceived benefits are just not commensurate with the risks."
Vogel says men want children in the context of stable relationships, but women are failing to provide them. "Many women are not offering satisfactory relationships. I don't think men are less willing to commit long term than women. In fact, it is usually the woman who instigates separation."
And men are strongly discouraged by negative imagery about fathers: "No one wants to head down a path that is likely to end with them being branded a dead-beat dad," Vogel says.
We've been told since childhood by feminists that we're evil patriarchs, simply because we're male; we're beyond re-habilitation, and our only right as men is to die an agonizing death. Message received, loud and clear: we're not fathering your children.
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FYI, I had a letter printed in the Denver Post in response to an editorial by Al Knight. Here is the link:
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E73 %257E810140,00.html
Here is the text of the letter:
Al Knight on marriage
Address men's issues
Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - Re: "Why men won't commit" and "To rescue marriage, address divorce," Aug. 4 and July 31 Al Knight columns.
Al Knight's Aug. 4 column is a predictable misrepresentation of men's reluctance to commit to marriage.
While Knight states that "men want to avoid divorce and its financial risks," he fails to mention that divorced men usually lose custody of their children, and suffer emotional devastation as a result. Also, some women aren't interested in marriage either, but get described as "strong and independent" by the media. In contrast, unmarried men are characterized as "immature and irresponsible."
adopting this double standard, Knight displays a misguided chivalry that, ironically, has allowed a feminist-influenced media to promulgate misandry (hatred of men) in society. Men, tired of such anti-male portrayals, may be abstaining from relationships and marriage as a result.
I challenge The Denver Post to abandon its steady drumbeat of anti-male reporting in favor of a more balanced approach to gender issues. Perhaps a "Men's Issues" column would be a start in serving this half of the community.
Steve
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"We've lost sight of the fact men are involved too."
I like that line.
"I challenge The Denver Post to abandon its steady drumbeat of anti-male reporting in favor of a more balanced approach to gender issues. Perhaps a "Men's Issues" column would be a start in serving this half of the community. "
You know, when newspapers call me and try to market their paper to me for home delivered service I tell them 'no thanks and the reason is , is because I find your newspaper to be quit misandric' and than I ask them if they know what the term means. Or I just out right say that I feel the paper puts men in a bad light. These people work with the marketing, those are good people to explain these things to.
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Sunday November 10, @02:17AM EST (#11)
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((("Men, tired of such anti-male portrayals, may be obtstaining from realationships and marriage as a result.")))
Duh, now! Gee, Ya think?!? (sarcasam)
Those and a few other reasons are EXACTLY why I, personaly, not only "obstain from marriage and realationships", but avoid women in general.
And before any one says it, Yes, I KNOW not all women are "bad". But as I've said before, You can't tell the "good" from the "bad" untill it's too late.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka-hey!"
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The article noted:
"We have a tradition of feminist literature since the 1960s and 1970s that puts a strong emphasis on women's work, women staying at home, their difficulties combining work and family life . . . We've lost sight of the fact men are involved too."
This is something I have been trying to get through to people for years. The only way we can reference men's issues is through women's issues. The Fatherhood movement is, in my opinion, at the forefront of the masculinity movement in the way it deals with men's issues. It addresses attacks from feminist groups but focuses the majority of its energy on the problems men are having in families ranging from court bias to helping fathers become better parents.
It is very astute observation to notice that men who want to be single are considered immature, cowards, scared of commitment, etc,.. The idea that men have a unspoken public bias is one of the problems that has kept the men's movement from breaking out into mainstream acceptance as a whole. The only men's movement that seems have been legitmized by society is the fatherhood movement. Books from "Real Boy's" to "A fine young man" have gained enourmous popularity in recent years. My hope is that as society begins to recognize the problems men being fathers it will expand into other more neede areas such as health, schools and prison reform.
Tony
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"My hope is that as society begins to recognize the problems men being fathers it will expand into other more neede areas such as health, schools and prison reform"
As far as I am concerned all prison does pyschologically to people is to instill that they commit more crime and return to the profitable prison systems.
Signed a member of the Sperm Cartel
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday November 12, @11:46AM EST (#33)
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And something else...,
We as Men MUST stop seeking Female approval.
I notice alot of Men gauge how well they are doing as "Men" by how much women approve of thier thoughts, actions and deeds.
This "approval" is ALWAYS at the cost of men's individuality, self respect, manhood and even his civil and constitutional rights.
It HAS to STOP!
This is nearly the same thing as Me, as an Indian, seeking the approval of the Ku Klux Klan. and JUST as inane.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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And something else...,
We as Men MUST stop seeking Female approval.
I notice alot of Men gauge how well they are doing as "Men" by how much women approve of thier thoughts, actions and deeds.
This "approval" is ALWAYS at the cost of men's individuality, self respect, manhood and even his civil and constitutional rights.
It's unlikely that men who seek women's approval earn any respect from them; men who seek the approval of women are contemptuously regarded as weak.
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by Anonymous User on Friday November 15, @01:34AM EST (#41)
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Mars.
Yeah, It's the whole "vicious circle" thing.
Damned if ya do, Damned if ya don't.
Thundercloud.
"hoka hey!"
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I don't know if you folks are aware of what a radical feminist is, or what she wants for the world. We must all be aware of their idea of utopia:
- There is no such thing as family.
- All children are conceived in laboratories and brought to term in artificial wombs.
- None of these children are male.
- No one in society is male.
- All women are lesbians.
- It is commonplace for adult women to engage in sexual activity with girls, and even smiled upon.
This is the world that they wish to create. If the birthrate goes low enough for long enough, artificial reproduction may become a necessity. And don't think the rad-fems won't be out there in droves, brewing up as many daughters as possible for their man-hating armies.
There are few things that are more dangerous than a philosophy that exploits cognitive dissonance, which is the innate human drive to maintain a balanced, unfaltering sense of self vs. universe (i.e. I'm always right and "they" are always wrong). Give a person a reason to think they're fundamentally better than someone else, or fundamentally entitled to receive something from someone else, and you've got a smash hit in the works. Religious extremism, fanatic nationalism, and radical feminism are all examples of this. It's a well-known weakness and so easy to exploit that if one wishes to be bombarded with evidence of it, one need only read a newspaper or turn on a TV or radio.
I support any effort that will deprive vicious gender feminists of their quarry, but we must also be aware that this could potentially be a win-win situation for the rad-fems.
Dan Lynch mentioned in a recent speech that he's into the martial arts. He and other practitioners can tell you that it's not enough to issue an attack or a counterattack - you must also keep your opponent in check. Never drop your guard; always think two or more steps ahead, as in a chess game. And then there is the matter of gauging appropriate force - if you apply too much or too little energy in an attack, you might wind up worse than before!
What I mean by all this rambling is that we should continue to lower the birthrate if it'll get us closer to true equality, but we must also keep an eye on our enemy - the rad-fems.
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by Anonymous User on Sunday November 10, @07:41AM EST (#16)
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No,artificial wombs are femunists' worst nightmare. Presently, there is no such thing as fatherhood. Women decide if and when conception will occur. Women decide if the unborn child will live or die. If the child is born, women will decide if the father will have any rights in regard to the child or not. In summary, men have no reproductive rights. This is exactly how the femunists want it. This is all made possible because women possess the uterus. Artificial wombs (perfectly feasible from a technical point) would change this situation completely. Men could produce children without reference to women. As a result, men would have full control of their fertility. They would also have full fatherhood rights. This is why femunists are so against embryo research. Embryo research will inevitably lead to perfection of techniques of embryo incubation. This will,in turn, lead to development of fetal incubation in vitro and,hence, the artificial uterus.
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" In summary, men have no reproductive rights. This is exactly how the femunists want it. This is all made possible because women possess the uterus. "
I agree, this is a power struggle. However, if men were eradicated then the artificial womb would suddenly become an appealing instrument.
.
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday November 12, @12:33PM EST (#35)
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The last time this artificial womb thing came up, I really upset a few (female) posters with some of my comments. So I respond to this carefully.
As I said, the last time, I'd really LIKE to be a Dad. But I am in NO WAY going to trust any Woman, simply for that honor. Not the way the current law is, and not with the "Hate-all-men" mentality of any given Woman in today's world.
An artificial womb, however would be a different 'ball game' all together.
An artificial womb won't hate me for being a Man. It can't abuse me, then call the police and tell them I'm abuseing "her". An artificial womb can't file for divorce at the drop of a hat and take my kid(s) away, so that I'll never see them again.
It won't demand that I do all MY work, then do "HER'S" as well. An artificial womb can't marry you for who you are, then try to change you, then get mad at you when you don't change to suit "her".
An artificial womb won't watch Soap operas every day of the week, then yell at you when you watch a football game ONCE a week.
I'll probably get flamed by female posters, again like last time. Well flame away, I guess.
And before any of you ladies accuse me, again, of "hateing women", and "Wanting all women to die, so we men can replace them with the artificial womb", I say once AGAIN, nowhere do I or Did I say anything remotely like that. That is NOT my belief or desire at ALL!
On the other hand if you DO want to know some people who advocate killing off a specific gender, etc. I suggest you, (A)Go to the rad-fem websites. and (B)study and learn about the rad-fems and THEIR agenda. Their agenda(s) are loaded with "hateing men" and "killing off all males".
THERE. I think that covers it.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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One note about the artificial womb. I would suspect that if it ever was implimented into our culture that the fembots would basically say that men will abuse and harm their children. That the womb should not be open to them.
Ha, nice pun.
.
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Friday November 15, @02:21AM EST (#43)
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((("the womb should not be open to them")))
...Ouch...!
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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"Dan Lynch mentioned in a recent speech that he's into the martial arts. He and other practitioners can tell you that it's not enough to issue an attack or a counterattack - you must also keep your opponent in check. Never drop your guard; always think two or more steps ahead, as in a chess game. And then there is the matter of gauging appropriate force - if you apply too much or too little energy in an attack, you might wind up worse than before! "
I think Sun Tzu said it nicely "Treat your enemies as your friends and your friends as your enemies"
Sun Tzu "The Art of War".
.
Dan Lynch
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Radical separatist women as described in your post are extremely rare and small in numbers to the point of statistical insignficance.
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That which is a statistical insignificance (most statisticians use 5% when no better α-value is given) today may not be so in fifty or a hundred years.
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The problem is that they (RADFEM's) are the most outspoken AND they have the sympathetic ear of the uninformed. As the old saying goes, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."
Tony
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I don't agree Tony. The radical feminists set their own traps. They actually repel other women and even other feminists. They certainly don't further their unreasonable cause. They really have not allies. There is a very powerful knee-jerk reaction against the ultra radical position, even among their close cousins who view them as a liability, not an asset.
IMO radicals could be viewed as friends because they are actually working for the opposite side instead of their own, albeit unwillingly and unknowingly.
The Men's Movevement also has it's share of radical separatists, but IMO they are also very small in number.
Maybe I'm naive but I believe reasonable people vastly outnumber unreasonable ones.
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"Maybe I'm naive but I believe reasonable people vastly outnumber unreasonable ones."
Then why do we have such unreasonable and sexist laws?
Its because the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
.
Dan Lynch
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Yes of course the squeaky wheel gets the grease. But that cuts all ways. If you look at the whole of human history it is undeniable we are on a trajectory (albeit glacially slow) of greater and greater egalitarianism, fairness, objectivity. If you look at just the last 30 years, you're going to reach commpletly different conclusions.
But that doesn't mean we're all going to hell in a handbasket. I try to focus on the longer perspectives. I realize human natue is such that we are impatient and we want change RIGHT NOW. But that is not how things have worked in general. Activism here and there tends to hurry along overall trends already in progress and is sometimes scooted along in quick spurts.
Politicians meanwhile tend to have the historical perspective of a ferret. They just want to know where the next meal is coming from. So appeals to them have to have a much more focussed and limited scope.
I see it more as the push and pull of politics, Dan, rather than that we have more unreasonable or sexist laws now compared to at other times. I still think more reasonable people eventually prevail.
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Hear, hear!
My experience is that I get the most satisfaction out of simply making my voice heard on a local level. Little steps, but it feels good. And those women (and men) that I talk to have opened up more of a dialogue about gender issues, and we've learned from each other. And hopefully, those folks will tell others, and it'll spread that way. It may take longer, but in the long run, it'll be more lasting.
Thanks for speaking up, Lorianne!
Sean
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Lorianne,
The problem isn't really that the "radical" feminists are "small in number". For most of us that is a given.
The problem is that they are a small group to whom ALOT of creedence, power and attention have been un-duely given.
In any society where a small group is given such things, that small group will use that un-due power towards THEIR "needs" and their "needs" alone. The whole of civilization be damned.
Furthermore, When such a 'group' also uses that power to literaly destroy another 'group' the result is always catastrophic.
The Nazis were, at first, a "small group", too, Just to give one example of how this whole "small group" with too much power and influence thing allways ends up, eventualy.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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The problem isn't really that the "radical" feminists are "small in number". For most of us that is a given. The problem is that they are a small group to whom ALOT of creedence, power and attention have been un-duely given.
Thundercloud, I'm not sure I agree with you about credence and power. Attention yes. But the attention they draw often works against them. Example, the KKK attracts attention, but it doesn't necessarily further their goals now does it. IMO it strengthens the resolve of the people opposed to them.
The Nazis were, at first, a "small group", too, Just to give one example of how this whole "small group" with too much power and influence thing allways ends up....
This is a good point. This is why vigilance is in order. IMO it has to have integrity. If we speak up againg feminist extremists, we have to speak up against all extremists, not because we "should" but to garner more integrity. Integrity appeals to reasonable people. Radical extremists don't have integrity in general. One of their hallmarks is playing both sides of the fence. The German people know about that. It was not only Jews who died in the camps. Many German Catholics, gays, and other groups found themselves on the wrong side of the oven. Many of them didn't think speaking up for the Jews was important .... not their business.
This is why I think reasonable people have to speak up for each other, even other that are not part of their particular "group". If not it is your head that could be on the chopping block. That's why some women with integrity that call themselves feminists will call out their own radical extremists. For example, radical anti-male feminist separatists are the fringe and are not accepted by most women.
Reasonable people, even if they disagree on some points, can still spot other reasonable people in the opposing team. They know who/what are the reasonable position on the oppostide side and they know who the extremists are. This is the oft mentioned grand middle of our political spectrum. I personally think feminism has a grand middle and even a Conservative side.
Therefore extremists are shunned by most women and men (but watched closely).
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by Anonymous User on Friday November 15, @01:54AM EST (#42)
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Lorianne.
Yeah, I agree.
We need to be vigilant of ALL 'extreamist groups'. be they male, female, white, black, red, yellow, gay, straight, etc.
The thing about the KKK, however...,
Beleive me, if the mainstream media approved of the 'Klan' and it's agenda they'd make them look like angels.
The media, for the most part does not approve of their agenda, and therefore don't give them a "voice".
But the N.O.W., on the other hand, That is another story.
The media exposes the KKK's true agenda to deny it sympathy and support.
But it HIDES the rad-fem's true agenda to ascertain it sympathy and support.
Thundercloud.
"Hoka hey!"
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by Anonymous User on Sunday November 10, @01:20PM EST (#17)
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This was a great article. It is a topic obviously crying out to be discussed. But alas, here in the US, the idea of men making decisions contrary to the desires of women, and having very good reasons why, is just unpublishable! It would be a threat to the marriage/divorce industry, the gov't's interest in collecting child support (and taking a cut in the process), and otherwise continuing to exploit men financially, emotionally, and psychologically. The gender feminists wouldn't like it either and would raise holy Caine over anything like this getting published.
So let's not take it lying down. Send the link to the article to your newspaper's editorial dept. and ask them why such topics are not being raised in their papers. If The Sun in Australia can write about, why can't the NY Times?
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