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by Marc Angelucci on Tuesday September 24, @01:13PM EST (#1)
(User #61 Info)
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Dan,
Congratulations! Here's one idea.
Begin with a very brief overview of the branches of the men's movement (Mythopoetic, Father's rights, Men's Rights, Traditionalist Men, Feminist Men), and especially how the men's rights movement (or "free men" movement) branched from feminist men in the 1970s in that they agreed gender roles were limiting but didn't agree that men were oppressors.
Then introduce Warren Farrell as an icon of the men's rights movement and tell a brief story of his history - from a feminist with NOW, writing frequent editorials for the NY Times, big bucks, etc., who starts to introduce male perspectives into his workshops ("success objects," etc.) and finding his standing ovations dwindled as feminists would leave the room, then how he wrote books on the male perspective and become shunned by feminists and the NY Times, etc.
Then introduce The Myth of Male Power and give a basic overview using chapter one as a guide.
Then go into father's custody as a primary area where men are discriminated against. Introduce Sanford Braver's basic findings in "Divorced Dads" (the largest federally-funded study on divorce). Tie father's issues to a current event like the recent federal child support collection bill that scapegoats dads, as Glenn Sacks and Dianna Thompson wrote about. Compare it to the war on drugs. Then tie fatherlessness to the larger picture of delinquency, crime, incarceration, dropouts, suicide, etc. as found in Farrell's "Father and Child Reuinion" and explain how scapegoating fathers has similar drastic results as the war on drugs does.
Then briefly explain how feminists have influence our government to distort other important social issues as well such as DV and health issues, using solid sources, and explain why there needs to be a men's movement to promote fair, balanced and effective policy.
Then briefly introduce some current men's rights activism such as some of the groups, this site, men's news daily, etc. and explain your own activism and how people can get involved no matter what their gender, race, political background, etc.
However way you decide to do it, good preparation is key. And use visuals. Good luck Dan!
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I like Marc's idea of presenting a historical perspective first. However, to get through to the groups I would avoid the idea that men are victimized. Let the audience draw that conclusion on their own. Currently feminism has been very successful in teaching that men are in power and that women have no power. By presenting Warren’s book on “The Myth of Male Power” you are asking for trouble. So to dispute the idea of men being in power will only alienate the audience. However, there are issues where the feminists cannot dispute reality. I like the way that Judge Mablean Ephriam of Divorce Court puts it when she says that, “These problems often stem from outdated stereotypes about their roles as males.”
For example, by talking about paternity fraud and presenting the issue in a factual manner, I've found that feminists cannot dispute the issue effectively. Using the L.A. County attack against men is a perfect example. In this attack, men are randomly assigned paternity through default judgments because of improper service. In one case a 64-year old male who is impotent was served notice and required to disprove paternity. That was done because L.A. County sends notices to every male listed in California when a mother lists a name. When that happens, every male must disprove paternity in court or they face a default judgment.
I would also publicly note that feminism does not address the issue and opposes any resolution to the issue. Specifically, CA N.O.W. is on record as stating that the categorically oppose legislation that will resolve this issue in any form. I have the exact quote and information if you need it.
I would also discuss mandatory arrest, domestic violence, and primary aggressor laws. Explain how men are being pushed to the limit by systematic attacks from their domestic partner, and that men are not being taught how to manage the situation until they make a mistake that results in their arrest. For example, they may come under a series of attacks and fail to obtain a restraining order through proper legal council because men are taught to just take the abuse from the female.
Then one day when they are trying to remove themselves, the domestic partner may have a genuine accident that results in an injury while trying to prevent the male from removing himself. Because the female is very likely to dial 911 as they’ve been socialized to, the result is that the male gets arrested and can potentially be railroaded into pleading guilty if he lacks resources to defend himself. Emphasize that the experience of pain and abuse is gender neutral while states like California have defined by law domestic violence to be gender specific. See the definition section on Domestic Violence Law by checking the Health and Safety Code and viewing section 124250.1.a for a gender specific definition of domestic violence that excludes males.
Also, I would explain how males are subject to unequal sentencing laws. I'd demonstrate that America has the highest criminalization rate in the free world. We have 5% of the worlds populations and 2 million prison inmates while there are only 8 million inmates. That means we have roughly 25% of the worlds prison population. An exception would be Russia, which has a higher criminalization rate than America.
Obviously, family court and the abuses of men is another example. Everybody pretty much agrees that men get the raw deal in family court. It would be good to explain why.
Warble
Disclaimer: My statements are intended to be personal opinion, belief, sarcasm, or allegation.
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There are people far-better-qualified than me to make such recomendations (Marc, for example, above) but I do have some thoughts.
1) Remember that some of the men you are talking to may well be feminists, and you don't want to hit the audience so hard that they are reviled. You can't throw a frog into boiling water...
2) Keep it humorous. If people leave feeling depressed, they are less likely to come back. But DO try to exhort them into action, if nothing else, then just speaking up in private conversation.
3) Be 'for' something. Don't just complain about how bad life is for men. Be in favor of some change that's on the horizon with sufficient visibility that a message of hope comes through.
4) Don't try to cover too much ground. Like, covering prison rape/child support/child custody/domestic violence/misandry in the media is a LOT of ground. List the issues somewhere so that they can see how broad the problem is, but focus on something.
5) Consider your audience: are they married men? then divorce and custody might be good topics. Are the college students? Misandry in the media is good and don't forget the college's rape and sexual harassment policies and the dearth of due process for men. Older men? Men's health. Mothers and fathers? Education.
Just some thoughts. I hope they help.
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First of all, this is a speech, not an official debate, so the key is SOFT SELL; pretend you've got a 100-lb fish on a 10-lb line, and you have to lure, hook, play them, and reel them in without letting them know.
Don't mention statistics except to suppport a point; you want to sway with principles, not numbers.
As a "hook," the first idea is always to go over what you have in common with the audience, namely that you all want what's fair; everyone wants to think they're fair.
Then, begin to list some of the ways in which you think a lot of people might agree (soften, soften, soften)that certain reforms in society have turned out to be very good for women, but emphasize that this is fine because women have a right to fair reforms; then, gradually ease into the point that that this right applies to all people, not just women, (say "people" instead of "men" whenever possible, since our society holds the two to be mutually exclusive) in addition to the right of all people to live with the same right to equal respect and respect and dignity from each other and from society in general, without being subjected to any type of bashing for their natural differences(make everything as gender-neutral as possible except when mentioning specific points).
I'd definitely list the fair ways that men could be treated better by society, and then move for reforms to achieve these objectives; keep it positive at all times, and don't EVER say anything against women, or portray men as victims-- say what we WANT to achieve, not what we DON'T want to happen, or what we want to stop etc.: this way you will present a positive objective rather than a negative one, as well as more of a clear means of attaining it.
If you do mention incidents of misandry however, don't ever portray it as a joke or with any tone of humor whatsoever, but rather with a solemn, grim tone that "I don't think that's very funny" etc. and say it with a tone of shock to inspire the same in the audience.
With regard to the inevitable response that some problems such as male-on-male violence and male-bashing in the media, will be seen as "men's problems," keep reminding the audience to see men and and women as individual human beings with equal rights, rather than monolithic gender-labels, and that one man is no more resonsible for the actions of another man or woman, than a woman is responsible for the actions of another man or woman.
In the end, sum it up by recapping what reforms are needed, and how it's vitally important in a fair society for the rights and dignity of all people to be equally observed and respected, and that everyone must be respected as an indivual without anyone receiving special treatment or priveleges.
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Dan - Some great suggestions so far. Probably enough to do a week long conference!
I would urge you to keep it simple. Agree with those above that staying away from painting men as victims is a good idea. I think I would appeal to peoples natural inclination to want fairness and equal opportunity and equal rights. Descibing how men have fewer rights (bill 117???) might help some folks to see that we have a big problem here. One of the most obvious is the sentencing differential. Same crime, different sentence just because they are men. Child custody bias might be one. Another area that is "easy" would be the issue of DV and just telling people that men are indeed in need of DV services but there are NONE available. Citing the recent professional sports stars who have been victims of DV can only help. We love women, we want women in need to have services...but we also feel it is only fair that men have services too.
Be careful to avoid the obvious trap of being called a hater of women. So easy to say and so hard to disprove.
Sometimes the best teaching can emerge when you allow the group to tell stories about their own experiences. It is far easier to redirect a river than to stop it.
Good luck.
Stand Your Ground Forum
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"Be careful to avoid the obvious trap of being called a hater of women. So easy to say and so hard to disprove."
My usual response to that is, "why do you hate men?" Reverse it on them. They may not get it at first but... they stood their telling me men are horrible its men doing all the crime, than I say well they are finding women are doing this.
I can argue left right and centre so give me everything.
And I want everyone from foriegn countries to help too.
.
Dan Lynch
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Firstly, as a member of Mensa I have to say - do not assume a high IQ equals unemotional/less prejudicial thinking. I know a woman Mensa member who still insists that in a false sex abuse scandal in Cleveland, UK, that something must have happened. It does not matter to her that a 800 page government report says it was a false alarm, she has heard something else on the grapevine. Assume Mensa members can be as sexist, racist or anything else as ordinary people, and they can be as varied as ordinary people; they just might have more arguments to support their position, good or bad.
Second, where is this North York? New York? because, apart from New York, the only York I know is in England.
Finally, what I wanted to say was don't lecture the audience. Stick to one central point, e.g. men have rights that are being ignored, and relate all your anecdotes or studies to that theme. If they (the ones that are listening with an open mind) take that one idea away with them then you have won a victory for men's rights. I see you also mentioned foreign countries. I think you can safely say that the same basic situations (DV, custody, false allegations) are happening in the English speaking world (US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK, Eire) and it is probably true for other Western countries (France, Germany, Italy, Spain) although the language barrier means we don't get a full picture in those countries. If you need a few facts I might be able to help on that.
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"Second, where is this North York? New York? because, apart from New York, the only York I know is in England."
This perticular 'York' is north of Toronto, basically in Toronto.
Any advice and or comments are great. I feel the same way you do. The same feminist garble is passed on just about everywhere. 95% DV cases are because of men etc... That propaganda is really funny that its just 'universal'. I also find it funny when I refute those states with american data here in Canada and their argument is "well thats the US". Duh!!!
Again that is my email address, feel free to send anything. Im thinking at this point I may just go in and explain about what men are going through. Not sure just yet. Its not that Im looking for more ground to get across, its more of the angle to get across. Im usually an anti-feminist and I think that it will just piss most of them off instead of educate them.
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Dan Lynch
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Thank you Marc, Warble, Frank and incredibletulkas .
I am definately going to take the advice and its good advice at that. I am hoping that more men on this site will consider doing such things.
The speech will take place at a North York Menza club and I have been trying to get a feel for what the group is about. Are some pro male are they are feminist indoctrinated etc, etc,.
One possible view is if I can gain crowd participation. One in which men and women will be discussing within themselves. So here is the set up. I have approx an hour to do this. Im thinking I can get a great deal of matter out in the first half hour and hope that crowd participation will come out in the second half.
My thoughts are that 'feminism' etc has divided us into gender camps. That cummunication on the matter is a no clause because of 'emotions'. Im wanting to get it out into the air and have them discussing it amongst themselves. Im not really concerned with "winning" on statistics but I want to drive across the notion that we just don't really have a great deal of many reliable stats. As well as point out that many of the stats have been "surpressed" intentionally etc..
I want people to realize that the "victim industry" is producing many lies and really nothing but fear mongering propaganda. That men in general are getting a bad rap.
The only arguement I come up weak on, which I use to have one for is *the vote*.
I do not want to limit my discussion to just the US or Canada. I want to walk all over the globe.
I am told that some people in the audience are suspicious of whats going on. I am also told that many are just one sided only given the one story.
I am completely open to critisisms and you can not offend me or 'hurt my feelings' or whatever. I feel that we are a team here and that we are here to learn from eachother so if you think my ideas sucks shit just say so. I also could use a good opener. I perticularilly liked how Marc suggested I close off as well as his mention of Ferrall. I would also like to add about the lawsuits going on.
I could do this either way. I could have them come at me or have them turn on eachother. Honeslty I want them turned onto eachother. I feel that he way to sound solutions is to soundly and objectively talk about it.
Please continue to contribute your ideas. Email me if you want to that is my correct address.
I think that if we formulate some of the most important issues to us thats what I will go with.
Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Tuesday September 24, @07:06PM EST (#8)
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Here is a list of Mensa organizations, including the one you mention. Mensans pride themselves on their intellect (it is, after all, an organization based upon its members having high IQs). It is to their intellect which you should most appeal.
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by Anonymous User on Wednesday September 25, @01:40AM EST (#12)
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Dan.
I don't know who all is going to be at your speech, But In my exspirience, There always seems to be SOMEONE sent as a Feminist-plant, to try and trip up men's-rights activists.
If not that, there always seems to be at least ONE "Fem-boy" in the audience who has been brain-washed by feminist doggma, who thinks he is doing the right thing by "attacking" you and your position.
Also, there may be someone there who will demand you illustrate what double-standards exist that discriminate against men. This can be a fair question, But I have often found that the person asking is a condesending feminist or Wussy-poopie, who actually doesn't expect a good ansewer from you. Even if you DO have a good ansewer, They will not exept it, and start attacking you with the "data" on how WOMEN are discriminated against, therefore trying to nullifie your position.
Once when I was "debateing" a feminist, myself, She demanded that I give her just ONE example of how men are treated worse than women and to illustrate just ONE double-standard MEN face.
I gave her one.
I asked her; "Why is it that when Women dress in Men's clothes it is called a 'fashion-statement', But if Men dress in Women's clothes it is called TRANSVESTISM?"
She of course had no intelegent reply, and like all "good" Feminazis, launched an all out attack on me with "data" on women's issues.
Hey, She ASKED for it.
Any way, I hope at least SOME of this is helpful to you Dan.
Good luck and congrats.
Thundercloud.
PS. to any one trying to email me, Don't bother for a while.
Because of spamming I've gotten lately, (I suspect from some Marx-fems.) I am changeing my email address. I'll keep all interested parties posted.
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Yep: Angry Harry proffers no advice for a change!
Just to say.
WELL DONE MY FRIEND
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Dan:
Great! We need opportunities to tell the story of the men's movement of the new millennium.
There are many areas within the men's movement: divorce law, paternity fraud, child custody, domestic violence, forced inscription, overtly sexist eudcational systems, sexual discrimination (title IX) where men's lives have been ripped apart and destroyed. A lot of the men's movement is a reaction to the overt injustice and destruction personally experienced by individual men.
You could teach semesters of courses on all of these topics and more and not reach the end of possible topics.
I'd (very briefly) cover each major issue to wet the appetite of the listener, give them a typical example of how a guy is affected in each situation.
Some time after that comes the, "What are the Solutions" phase, where you could talk about what some men/men's groups are actually doing as well as what ideas you have for what men should be doing to address there grievances.
A permanent men's commission in government (at some appropriate level) to address problems unique to the changing male role in our constantly evolving society would be a very worthwhile topic to plug, when stressing the things that must happen for the healing and nurture of the male gender.
Have more than enough material to fill the alloted time. Practice your delivery in front of the mirror (you probably already know that), but leave at least 15 minutes for questions. If you don't get any, be prepared to ask them situational questions such as, "If you came home tonight, unlocked your house and found your children and all your possessions missing, what would think, what you do?"
In any speaking engagement, being prepared, really pays off in the successful delivery of what it is you want to say, because if you can't put it together in an orderly and sensible way when your preparing your material it probably won't be any different in front of the crowd.
Lastly, it is easiest to talk about that which you already know the most about. If you are well read in a certain area, mention that, use it as a fall back point, if it starts to unravel in areas where you are less certain.
Don't be afraid to tell them, "I don't know the answer to that question, but if I can get your contact info I will go to my sources and have an anwer for you in less than a week." You will impress them with your honesty, and also provide yourself with a challenging opportunity to learn new things. Sometimes this is the most exciting part.
Whatever you decide, you will do very well, and it will hopefully provide you with new opportunities and contacts.
Good Luck,
Ray
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Knowing your audience is vital in an area such as men's issues. If you are giving a lecture to Mensa members I have a few suggestions that may apply.
First stick to hard facts. Avoid political issues that we often deal with as activists. Use peer reviewed articles from major journals to support your claims. Right up front I would address the issue women's rights. I would say something like, "Very often the men's rights movement is portrayed as the enemy of women everywhere. This is simply not the case.... While fringe groups draw a large portion of the media attention and are the most frequently quoted when referring to men's issues they do not represent the majority. (etc.)"
For your introduction I would answer the basic "what" question about the men's movement. Acknowledge there is a large degree of varaiance even within this movement. Mention a few of the larger groups such as NOMAS, Promise Keepers, NCFM, etc,.
I also would suggestion answering why a men's movement is needed. The vast majority of women's studies indocrinated individuals feel that it is a backlash movement, whose purpose is to send women back into the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant.
If I had an opportunity such as this I would mention problem areas that are absolutely obvious to even the most indoctrinated feminist. A few areas that I might cover are: men's health, prison population (I would mention the WHO study on prison rape here for the shock value), male suicide, education (ie. the lack of), draft (Surprisingly there is still a bill in a committee that wants to require men to serve 6 mo to 1 year), media representation.
[I suggest having a list of sites and books to back up some of these statements for those interested.]
Tony
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I'd like to thank everyone for their keen advice. I not only hope to inspire my listeners I hope to inspire more men to take up this speaking role.
Firstly; its thanks to Ragtime that I have this oppurtunity to speak and get our message across. Ragtime has some business to attend to and was more than gracious enough to recomend me as the speaker.
Marc for starting it off right away knowing I count on his advice and encouragement.
For Warble who digs into the trenches and is able to see past our differences and see our commonalities.
Incredibletulkas, Raymond Cuttill, and Angry Harry who took me seriously and to do a good job.
For Thundercloud who sees me as a man and a friend and not as race and gives me the respect and encouragement I need.
For Tom who I am just meeting and Tony who I have known for a while who even on his busy schedule checks in with me from time to time on new ideas and strategies at overcoming this.
And for Trudy who is going through a busy time herself was able to take time out email me and give me her thoughts.
Maybe this might appear a little overdramatic, but; I think this is the kind of influence that we need. It might be a small group or a fairly large group I have no idea yet. Im hoping these issues will expand and that I will be able to develope a formula and more oppurtunities to get this out.
Its amazaing at what they are suggesting in Ontario that they do for DV instances. Some people are actually suggesting that men be labled as 'dangerous offenders'. What this means is, on one person's word and no evidence they can lock a man up indefinately, the rest of his life. No proof, no trial, nothing. Watch for this to happen.
Again , thank you everyone.
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Dan Lynch
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by Anonymous User on Thursday September 26, @11:26PM EST (#16)
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Dan.
Thank you for your kind words.
So, some (stupid) people want to lable ALL men as "dangerous offenders", do they?
There was a time when some people were labled as "Witches". You'd think we as the human spiecies would have changed, at least a bit by now, wouldn't you?
We still have "witch hunts", in 2002, just the lables have changed. "Adulterer", "Witch", and now..., "Men".
Thundercloud.
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